Why is everyone complaning about the current melee controls?

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

I don't have any problem with the current system at all, i use Tempo Royale with my Galatine and i can consistently pull off August Mesto every time (you need to hold LT, the aim button), my only gripe maybe is that at the end of the combo (if i don't keep pressing O, the melee button on XB1) it auto-changes to my primary/secondary, and when i go back to my Melee my character somehow is using the weapon on the left hand (no jokes, seriously).  

 

But you guys complaning, have to be aware that most of those complaints are from PC players, and there's Xbox/PS4 players satisfied with the current changes.

Edited July 10, 2019 by (XB1)XG1anBl4derX

[Genitive]

40 minutes ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

at the end of the combo (if i don't keep pressing O, the melee button on XB1) it auto-changes to my primary/secondary

That's one of the reasons.

Most of the Numerous complaints are about auto block. Apart from reducing the interactivity it makes some mods not as useful (guardian derision), interrupts actions, doesn't work well with some exalted abilities, blocking in air results in unwanted gliding.

40 minutes ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

But you guys complaning, have to be aware that most of those complaints are from PC players, and there's Xbox/PS4 players satisfied with the current changes.

That doesn't make the complaints any less valid.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Genitive
Monkey overlord corrections

[YUNoJump]

The biggest complaint I've seen is that blocking overrides several other functions and there's nothing the player can do about it. One example is charge attacks; sometimes it's hard to do them (particularly ones like the Redeemer's blast), because enemy fire interrupts the charge time.

Another big thing is that if you have your melee out in mid-air and you get hit by an enemy, you will start to involuntarily aim-glide, and the only way to prevent this is to remember to switch back to guns whenever you stop using melee.

One minor thing I hate is that you can't go from melee directly into an alt-fire; you have to switch back to your gun first or you just start channeling.

 

[(PSN)chibitonka]

18 minutes ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

I don't have any problem with the current system at all, i use Tempo Royale with my Galatine and i can consistently pull off August Mesto every time (you need to hold LT, the aim button), my only gripe maybe is that at the end of the combo (if i don't keep pressing O, the melee button on XB1) it auto-changes to my primary/secondary, and when i go back to my Melee my character somehow is using the weapon on the left hand (no jokes, seriously).  

 

But you guys complaning, have to be aware that most of those complaints are from PC players, and there's Xbox/PS4 players satisfied with the current changes.

yeah. just cause one combo works ok with the setup of autoblock doesn't really mean rest of the combos on other stances are in a good spot when blocking is still involved.

Also there's the obvious about ppl hating having to use autoblock when it's disruptive to melee combat as a whole. The fact they can't melee glide without having to unequip nearly everything but the weapon to do so for effective mobility. Cause melee gliding is much more versatile than aimgliding when getting around and reducing incoming dmg. 

Mods reliant on blocking are shafted cause of the autoblock. 

Bad timing of the autoblock gets players killed.

All in all it's a hindrance more than an aid. 

[DeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, Genitive said:

Most of the complaints are about auto block.

I don't know about "most of". The block changes are certainly the ones that comes to mind as objectively poor however as opposed to personal preference, but there's certainly plenty of other valid complaints imo.

Regardless, what I consider to be objective downsides to the change.

- Blocking itself got a severe AoE nerf with the change.

- Auto blocking can cause you to block, and block glide, at very unfortunate times. Times that you have limited control over, and is more down to the AI than anything else.

- Guardian Derision and Electromagnetic Shielding are all but worthless mods.

More control is always better, and the change essentially removed control in favour of a convenience that... isn't particularly convenient.

[TaylorsContraction]

Mainly because we can't manually block

[GnarlsDarkley]

For me it's the movement/animation while attacking.

Everything cancels my attacks.

Example, Equinox on Adaro: Sleep --> Slide Attack (gets canceled mid animation for another sleep) --> Nothing was hit. This can continue infinitely. I used to get 80k per Orb. Now it's 40 to 50k if I am really lucky.

Another problem (at least at Adaro) is that if the Augment for Sleep is triggered, Equinox casts Sleep for 0 Energy costs but cancels her Slide Attacks. This infuriates me so often.

Last (and most annoying) I am no longer stagger immune while attacking. I'll get knocked down so frequently now, my swearing really did increase

[Leyvonne]

Yes, the wonderful controls that
- force me to re-eqiup fishing harpoon and mining drill after using melee to break an item (it used to be quick melee  and automatically back to fishing / mining equipment)
- doesn't allow me to manually block unless I have only melee equipped and even then auto block is in effect
- auto block that interrupts fluid movement, adds tons of flashy effects that can cover up the whole screen when playing vs infested and makes combos feel odd by interrupting them and then continuing them after the random blocking is done
- makes me unable to continue a mission if I have only primary weapon and use a scanner (reload doesn't work if weapon has full ammo and aim activates the scanner, fun times)
- drops data mass if I press Y while holding a melee weapon (would make more sense to have it switch to secondary and only drop data mass when pressing Y while holding a secondary)
- no aim gliding with melee if other weapons are equipped

P.S. Many of us PC players play with a controller...

Edited July 10, 2019 by Leyvonne
typos

[(PSN)Schobii564]

I am a ps4 player and i want to complain so much about the currently broken state of melee, so much

[(XBOX)WafflyLearner89]

I feel like the only reason block button was changed was so people could have the option to hit the target with accuracy or just to ready the gun (both not good reasons to remove manual block rather than improve the system). A better idea could be would be when the fire button is pressed, it immediately auto locks onto the enemy closest to the reticle and hits them, then the person can aim afterwards and continue firing. Additionally, just removing holster speed and making it instant and allowing use to use the switch weapon button to cycle between melee, primary and secondary would be just as good as the the "streamlined system" we are forced to use. 

[vaarnaaarne]

Also a rather major reason for the complaints is that phase 1 was implemented in March and there hasn't been any acknowledgement by DE regarding the feedback or the problems Phase 1 has caused, much less anything being addressed or changed yet. Tie into this that melee was slapped with totally unwarranted movement locks in nearly all stances LAST YEAR (just picture if all but roughly twelve guns of all guns DIDN'T lock you in place when firing), which similarly has gone unacknowledged and unaddressed, and you can guess why complaints pile up.

Edited July 11, 2019 by vaarnaaarne

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

Only thing I miss is being able to manually block. Everything else makes it more fluid during combat. 

[NinjaZeku]

On 2019-07-10 at 11:24 AM, YUNoJump said:

you can't go from melee directly into an alt-fire; you have to switch back to your gun first or you just start channeling

That one's a big oof in my book, it pretty much ruined Corinth for me (I use the Air Burst more than regular shots).

As for auto blocking woes, I'm still not on board with it triggering the Exodia Contagion conditions, which can easily make you kill yourself.

[(NSW)ForTheGhostsWithin]

You are using Tempo Royale, the one of best stances to control.
Just try to hit something with Brutal Tide and enjoy how brutal the tide is.
Some weapon types are very hard to use without quick melee. Especially with controllers.

[Loza03]

I don't like auto-block, and especially dislike the ramification of reduced aerial control with melee out and I'm finding it especially bizzare after the 3.0 preview which indicates that we'll be using right-mouse a lot more with melee 3.0, yet it's one of the weapon switch buttons. I'd prefer bringing it back and putting the switch on a double-tap - possibly with options to switch the inputs between them similar to wheel abilities like Vauban's minelayer and another that causes melee to auto-swap back - but only an option.

 

Aside from that though? I think it's great. Sure the stances need work, but as above, that should be pretty soon now Tennocon's wrapped up. It's more fluid and allows for more depth in combat.

 

On 2019-07-10 at 11:27 AM, Leyvonne said:

- drops data mass if I press Y while holding a melee weapon (would make more sense to have it switch to secondary and only drop data mass when pressing Y while holding a secondary)

Just wanted to address this: It should do what you suggested now. I remember them calling out they fixed that, and certainly that's how it behaves for me. If not, then that's probably a bug.

[Sikelh]

1.Hate auto blocking. Sometimes its just better to take the damage. Would like to be able to choose depending on the situation which requires manual block.

2.Hate having controls forcibly combined where I don't want them to be. Especially the switching of my weapons when I don't want them to but I have no choice because something else I DO want to do occupies the same binding no matter how I fiddle with the controls. By combining functions we have less potential binding choices we can make.

3.Controls no longer change to better match what weapon you have out meaning less potential binding possibilities.

4.Block radius was nerfed for basically no reason.

5.Loss of quick melee. I actually do like the stances on the weapons I use but not ALL the time. I personally thing it'd be better if all melee had a quick repeating two hit when melee isn't actively out and do the full combos when it is. And it automatically switching fully to my melee anytime I want to do just ONE attack is annoying. Especially when trying to fish or mine and I want to deal with that SINGLE grineer who's bugging me without having to pull the damn gear wheel back up.

The whole thing feels like a clunky mess and is far less fluid. Less fine tuned control and less options leads to LESS depth in combat. There were far better ways to allow us to switch quickly without jamming our controls together. 

What we should at LEAST get is a legacy toggle until they can work out a system that gives full control and will let anyone set up whatever control scheme they damn well please.

[Vanrythzx]

i literally need to puke while playing with these melee changes, just give us an option to turn on old melee mode, i cant play like this

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, Sikelh said:

The whole thing feels like a clunky mess and is far less fluid. Less fine tuned control and less options leads to LESS depth in combat.

This is incorrect.

Consider that in melee 2.0, the majority of guns had primary fire and quick melee - relatively few guns in the great scheme of things have an alt-fire. You also have stance melee, which I'm going to say has an average of 3 combos, including the spam - some have as few as 2, but some have 4 - so lets go with an average of 3.

Now, you have lost one option on gun (quick melee) - but, since there is effectively no difference between having your melee equipped vs having your gun equipped, as you have access to gunplay and stances at all times. Switch via weapon switch does not allow this, as even with no down-time, there's still a cognitive element to 'switch from one mode to the other', rather than enabling it to be reactionary. Reactions are fast, and usually one-step. 

With that in mind take the new average of a single option for guns plus the average of 3 for melee, and you come out with 4 options, just with basic attacks. Obviously, maneuvers and maneuver attacks also exist, but they remain the same between both instances, so it's moot. Now, going further and considering the stance update, where every stance has 4 combos, and we can bump that average up to 5.

Mathematically speaking, we have more options now than we did before at any given moment. That is more depth, by definition of choices available at any given time.

 

I get that a lot of people don't like the new controls, but with the in mind, there is an objective benefit for the new system over the old one. Work should be done to improve the new system without losing that benefit, whilst still taking steps to ensure.

2 hours ago, Sikelh said:

What we should at LEAST get is a legacy toggle until they can work out a system that gives full control and will let anyone set up whatever control scheme they damn well please.

A legacy toggle just lets a big batch of old code into the game, inevitably letting it run around and cause problems during the development process. 

A better idea might be smaller-scale, QoL switches. For example, regarding gear items, there was a period of time where they were 'remembered' so your melee would switch back. An option to re-enable that, for example, would fix the fishing gear problem, whilst also letting people who might prefer not to have to go into the gear wheel to de-equip it again. For people who don't like having to manually swap back to guns, an option for a forced switch where, after using melee, the game automatically switches back to gun. I don't know DE's code, but it's likely these would require significantly less code - possibly even something as simple as a single optional flag check, meaning far fewer problems down the line.

[DeMonkey]

9 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

This is incorrect.

Consider that in melee 2.0, the majority of guns had primary fire and quick melee - relatively few guns in the great scheme of things have an alt-fire. You also have stance melee, which I'm going to say has an average of 3 combos, including the spam - some have as few as 2, but some have 4 - so lets go with an average of 3.

Now, you have lost one option on gun (quick melee) - but, since there is effectively no difference between having your melee equipped vs having your gun equipped, as you have access to gunplay and stances at all times.

I think the fact that you used the word "gun" here 5 times kinda proves their point.

In the context of melee combat it is less fluid because of the overwhelming amount of "guns" now involved, we have lost some degree of control and ultimately Melee combat itself has lost depth.

Yes, overall combat depth has increased, but the thread and their post is about melee specifically. If your response to a concern regarding melee gameplay involves mentioning how much easier and more engaging it is to use a gun and other options, then you've made their point for them. This was supposed to be a melee update, yet it seems that melee has taken an unfortunate hit whilst a hybrid play style has been pushed quite heavily.

[Aldain]

10 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

it seems that melee has taken an unfortunate hit whilst a hybrid play style has been pushed quite heavily.

I wholly agree, but I can't say I miss mindlessly mashing quick melee for the same 2 attack animations over and over.

[Loza03]

16 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I think the fact that you used the word "gun" here 5 times kinda proves their point.

In the context of melee combat it is less fluid because of the overwhelming amount of "guns" now involved, we have lost some degree of control and ultimately Melee combat itself has lost depth.

Yes, overall combat depth has increased, but the thread and their post is about melee specifically. If your response to a concern regarding melee gameplay involves mentioning how much easier and more engaging it is to use a gun and other options, then you've made their point for them. This was supposed to be a melee update, yet it seems that melee has taken an unfortunate hit whilst a hybrid play style has been pushed quite heavily.

The only element of control that was lost in terms of melee was block, which I've said repeatedly I want back. Aside from that, there's very little change done to the actual melee combat  yet, and what's been shown off introduces even more ability to choose which combo you use - more control, not less.

At the end of the day, overall combat depth matters more than the depth of one facet. Compare the Force Unleashed and Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy. Knight has a fairly in-depth force system which gives you access to a customisable power set and has numerous interactions with other force powers, making force-based engagements a more interesting affair. It has a Halo-esque FPS system that has a number of mechanically-distinct guns, each with an alt-fire. And it has what many have praised as some of the best lightsaber combat ever designed, a kendo-inspired system which ties mobility, lightsaber type and stance together in a combat style that's simple, yet immensely deep.

Yet, I don't see it referred to over its younger cousin anywhere nearly as often, which has all its parts be much less deep (force powers are acquired fairly rigidly, Combat is very much the 'God of Wannabe'), but ties them together much better. Jedi Knight had instant switching, but not unlike Melee 2.0, its lightsaber combat and its gunplay effectively occupied different modes of play. More so than Warframe, but the point stands - what gets a combat system and a game to stick isn't one part of the system, it's the whole.

[Leyvonne]

12 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Just wanted to address this: It should do what you suggested now. I remember them calling out they fixed that, and certainly that's how it behaves for me. If not, then that's probably a bug.

Just tested it again with the keys in disruption mission and pressing Y after using melee switches to primary every time and makes me drop the key.

[Loza03]

3 hours ago, Leyvonne said:

Just tested it again with the keys in disruption mission and pressing Y after using melee switches to primary every time and makes me drop the key.

Then it's likely a bug, because that's not how it works on my end.

[DeMonkey]

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

The only element of control that was lost in terms of melee was block,

I'm afraid that this is untrue, with the 'so seamless that it actually ends up switching more than you want it to' weapon swapping we have also effectively lost control of the weapon we have out. Instances of pulling out your gun when trying to pull off a RMB combo, resulting in zooming in for no reason and a loss of melee functionality. Pulling off a RMB attack (at least with Primal Fury) will regularly end with you putting your weapon away and pulling out your gun... Why? Now you can't even make use of the auto block function without having to perform an additional melee attack.

Believe me, I have tested that last aspect quite a bit, and even letting go of RMB as soon as the combo starts results in your gun being drawn at the end of the attack.

That is a loss of control with regards to weapon choice.

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

At the end of the day, overall combat depth matters more than the depth of one facet.

Disagree, entirely. Especially when the threads created are about that singular facet.

Like I said, if a thread is created about how Melee 2.9 has made melee worse and your argument involves how it's made everything else better, then you make their point for them. Melee took a hit so that we could have Guns 2.9, and it doesn't have to be that way. The game has always been very good about choosing your playstyle, but the supposed update to this playstyle has hurt it in favour of pushing a playstyle that encompasses everything. That's all well and good, and I'm sure people love the new playstyle, but those of us who loved melee combat absolutely should be creating threads about the new melee so that it isn't left in such a state that many of us are unhappy with it.

It's great that DE have made a hybrid playstyle more effective and enjoyable, and I'm certain they can find a way for a melee playstyle to be it's own thing again. It shouldn't be too difficult, it really just involves not switching back to your gun all the sodding time and a buff to blocking.

[Loza03]

3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I'm afraid that this is untrue, with the 'so seamless that it actually ends up switching more than you want it to' weapon swapping we have also effectively lost control of the weapon we have out. Instances of pulling out your gun when trying to pull off a RMB combo, resulting in zooming in for no reason and a loss of melee functionality. Pulling off a RMB attack (at least with Primal Fury) will regularly end with you putting your weapon away and pulling out your gun... Why? Now you can't even make use of the auto block function without having to perform an additional melee attack.

Believe me, I have tested that last aspect quite a bit, and even letting go of RMB as soon as the combo starts results in your gun being drawn at the end of the attack.

That is a loss of control with regards to weapon choice.

So... block? Since Block was bound to that button, and in the case of manual block getting restored, would most likely be back on that button, solving that issue? I've been arguing as much as anyone about fixing that part. When I refer to 'block', I usually refer to blocking as it behaved before, with all the bells and whistles such as melee aim glide.

Aside from that, your choice of active weapon is just as willing as before, just done via different means that 'cuts out the middleman' so to say. With a weapon switch button, you'd need the same amount of inputs and work to get access to block regardless.

7 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Disagree, entirely. Especially when the threads created are about that singular facet.

I've made threads about this singular facet, in particular calling out the Blocking problem. It shouldn't be ignored, but the good of the overall whole should be prioritised.

Melee 2.99 is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a net positive. A lot of these threads are calling for reverts or legacy options which squander that, when it's better to suggest changes to the new system that fix its problems, so we can have as much good with as little bad. A lot of the negative feedback is way overblown, claiming it destroyed melee irreparably, when one of the biggest problems is, presumably, a pretty simple fix.

15 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Like I said, if a thread is created about how Melee 2.9 has made melee worse and your argument involves how it's made everything else better, then you make their point for them. Melee took a hit so that we could have Guns 2.9, and it doesn't have to be that way. The game has always been very good about choosing your playstyle, but the supposed update to this playstyle has hurt it in favour of pushing a playstyle that encompasses everything. That's all well and good, and I'm sure people love the new playstyle, but those of us who loved melee combat absolutely should be creating threads about the new melee so that it isn't left in such a state that many of us are unhappy with it.

Honestly agreed. I was mostly disagreeing with the claim that 2.0 was overall a more shallow system, which is just objectively wrong.

If there's ways to improve the new system without compromising the improvements made with the new system, I fully agree and have contributed to the cause of getting those changes through. I just don't agree with the loud group of people who are often exaggerating or presenting false evidence (like the person I originally responded to) who are effectively arguing to remove that core improvement.

28 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

It's great that DE have made a hybrid playstyle more effective and enjoyable, and I'm certain they can find a way for a melee playstyle to be it's own thing again. It shouldn't be too difficult, it really just involves not switching back to your gun all the sodding time and a buff to blocking.

Agreed.