Arbitrations Revisited: Hotfix 25.7.6

[Deminisis]

1 step forward, but 2 steps back with these changes. Please listen to feedback for once.

[LunaSymphony27]

This is not 2 steps backwards. This is several steps backwards.

[ArkSastir]

its too much to ask to fix pyrana prime dual wield animation? possibly before i get senile

[Rasdan]

17 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

• Fixed Wisp not aiming her rifle up when firing upwards. 

You should fix the one with Titania Noble Animation. At some point when using Dual Secondary (like Akvasto), the frame instead do idle animation while shooting bullets.

[IceBen]

1 hour ago, Sylonus said:

...

I love how people rant about arbi being a worse endo farm than before even after seeing the drop rates - because it is diluted xD

[TheFatDrake]

10 hours ago, DisKorruptd said:

why would you want to remove the ability to revive teammates?

Why would I want to revive a rando who clearly isn’t prepared for this game mode? Why would I want to burden others with my ineptitude. Why are we casualizing a supposed high end game mode? When should we reward people who leech off the game mode and punish people who came prepared?

The rewards now make the mode more enticing to play, but the revive system trivializes its purpose. It’s a high difficulty game mode where if you’re unprepared you’re penalized. You might as well give us our 4-6 revives back.

[belanya]

So you are trying to encourage people to play arbitrations with below average rewards when its supposed to be an endo farm... I dont think it hurts so much the endo/min but it greatly increases the frustration to get nearly garbage rewards when all you want is endo. Yes they are garbage btw, maybe the +combo aura can have some uses, but anyways corrosive projection is by a very large margin far superior than anything else. The arcanes are even worst, +armor for 16 sec on archgun summon? heal pet on 6 melee kills? wtf are thoses?

I guess in the current state of the game its pretty hard to pull some decent rewards. But since you ll never work on this issue and ll continue your flight forward, i stopped a time ago to expect anything good outside of a better axi/kuva farm...

So yeah only good point is to shorter the length of rotation. But still, revive mechanic is hot garbage, it just encourages people to get carried and punish good/decent players. Yeah its very fun to waste 5 min to revive this 300% strength loki or this +300% penta...

No actually, the best part about this update is the seeding ephemera, same or better drop rate than the new things and you cant do anything with the dup. Or maybe its the 3 vitus. I dont really know whats the best....

 

Long story short :

Yikes

[mikakor]

3 minutes ago, Raging_Jax said:

 

L-M-F-A-O This is actually the most ignorant salt in the wound part of the whole thing. You didnt even listen to the 17 pages of feedback before pushing this update and have the utter GALL to claim you'll listen to feedback now. What an utter joke. Definitely getting in everyones good graces with this mess. I cant say I've ever actually felt so ignored, and its not even just about me, its about me and the other 100+ people who gave you feedback as asked and you ignored (and are again doing now). Don't even know why i bother to comment not like they read or gaf about anything we say, just a bunch of other players reading the comments making sure they're not alone in feeling spat on. 

Dont worry Tenno at least I love you guys. 

Yeah, there couldn't be more blatant exemple that they ignored us purposefully. They WANTED to put these rewards in rotation, no matter what, so they ignored all feedback on this issue because for them it was good and they didn't wanted to change it.

[VotumPrime]

Give us a super cool armor set 100 Vitus Essence a piece. 5 pieces total! And a special auxiliary helmet!

 

[SarcFa]

19 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

New Arbitration Rewards:
The following rewards have been added to the Arbitrations drop tables:
Stats shown at max rank*

• New Aura Mods:
  • Aerodynamic: 6 seconds added to Aim Glide/Wall Latch time, decreases damage taken while Airborne by 24%*
  • Swift Momentum: 30% faster Charge Attack speed, 6 seconds added to  Melee Combo time*
  • Shepherd: Increases Companion Armor by 180 and Companion Health by 300*
  • Combat Discipline: Allies gain 20 Health when they make a kill, but the aura bearer loses 10 Health when the bearer makes a kill.*
  • Melee Guidance: Reduces Melee Combo timer on Self by 6 seconds, increases Melee Combo timer for Allies by 12 seconds*
• New Arcanes:
  • Arcane Primary Charger: On Melee Kill: 20% chance that Primary Weapon damage is increased by 200% for 8 seconds*
  • Arcane Blade Charger:  On Primary Weapon Kill: 20% chance that Melee damage is increased by 200% for 8 seconds*
  • Arcane Pistoleer: On Pistol Headshot Kill: 30% chance to gain 100% ammo efficiency for 4 seconds*
  • Arcane Bodyguard: On Six Melee Kills Within 30 seconds: Heal companion by 600*
  • Arcane Tanker: On Heavy Weapon Summon: Gain 1200 armor for 16 seconds*
  • Per usual rules, an equipped maximum rank Arcane will also grant an extra Arcane Revive
    • Note: You may notice that the new Arcanes have default icons - we will be updating these in the near future with unique imagery.
  • Added 3 x Vitus Essence bundle to the Arbitrations drop table.

DE, almost all of the pages of feedback to the dev workshop were FILLED with people asking you to put the new arcanes and aura mods in the vitus essence shop, AND to move seeding step ephemera, and possibly aura forma there as well. These things being put into the vitus shop make a lot of sense, since otherwise, there is barely any reason to use the shop as is. Furthermore, the shop already had cosmetic things and special mods for sale in it, it makes all the more sense to put all the special mods, arcanes, and cosmetic things in the shop, so there is actually a reason to spend the vitus essence beyond buying archwing rivens constantly and so that the people that want these things can buy them with essence instead of getting screwed over by the MASSIVELY DILUTED DROPTABLES.

[mikakor]

10 minutes ago, SarcFa said:

DE, almost of of the pages of feedback to the dev workshop were FILLED with people asking you to put the new arcanes and aura mods in the vitus essence shop, AND to move seeding step ephemera, and possibly aura forma there as well. These things being put into the vitus shop make a lot of sense, since otherwise, there is barely any reason to use the shop as is. Furthermore, the shop already had cosmetic things and special mods for sale in it, it makes all the more sense to put all the special mods, arcanes, and cosmetic things in the shop, so there is actually a reason to spend the vitus essence beyond buying archwing rivens constantly and so that the people that want these things can buy them with essence instead of getting screwed over by the MASSIVELY DILUTED DROPTABLES.

I'm actually wondering what is DE thought process behind this... Usually, in a situation, there is a win-win, a win-lose, a lose-win, or a lose-lose.

Here, it's a total lose-lose. It's a lose for the players because the loot table is diluted with useless junk that are one-time-needed, and a lose for DE too because, well... Less players doing arbitration, which the point of this update was to improve... But it downgraded it... Nobody is winning with this update...

 

( Except kuva chaser like me, from what I heard, except that it's not what I was doing arbis for... )

[AeliosZero]

Quote

Fixed in-construction Dojo decorations sometimes going invisible.

THANKYOU FOR PROMPTLY FIXING THIS ISSUE! I can dojo decorate again! Any chance you could fix the rotation issues with upside down decorations while you're at it? 

[GingaNinjah]

2 hours ago, Aesthel said:

"Thank you" so f*cking much! Let's come back to bored trash chroma with rubico meta. Here we go again (c).

Some people here said above about lanka. Well, Im here to remind them that Lanka doesn't "extract" eidolon from the water. Now again only chroma and rubico. F you!

Also Im not sure eidolons became as they were. Sorry, never had a situation in which I cant one-shot a Terralyst's limb for 2 castanas. 

Actually, never wrote this before, but "Thanks, DE!" 

 

Yea bad enough the screwed up arbs. Every update its something with Eidolon hunting/Amps/Vomvalyst getting tweaked and they wont f***n stop tweakin it. I swear they have a toy

[Rogunz]

22 minutes ago, Sylonus said:

Treating statues as their endo value turned in at full stars because most people I know and myself do so, and using 5/10 minutes for reward intervals ala survival even though some game modes are slightly faster/slower

 

All this follows with increased amounts of mods, etc due to the faster rotations, all in all it's a net positive, though admittedly, a slight one.

 

The problem with your calculations is excavation.

They only reduced the timer by 40 seconds so a full cycle for an excavator went from 240 seconds to 200.

And yet it's still by far the most rewarding mode with rotations around half the length of survival.

This really isn't a buff to Endo farming if the slowest arbitration mode is only slightly better while the most rewarding mode was made significantly worse.

 

[Caine2112]

DE, is RNG on top of RNG on top of more frustrating RNG the ONLY way you know how to create rewards and drop tables?  There are FAR better paradigms out there on how to distribute rewards, such as placing these new rewards in the Arbitration vendor and thereby drastically reducing the polluted drop tables and increasing Vitus Essence drops to be used as currency/crafting resources.  This way, folks can play the game and not need to focus on having to get that super rare arcane or mod 10x times in order to rank it to max.  Just collect Vitus Essence (just like standing with Cetus and Vox) and *GASP* buy the item you want/need.

By the great Tenno gawds, enough with the frustrating and tiresome RNG drop tables!!

I haven't played Warframe in 3 weeks, and honestly, I actually feel better now not playing than I do when I do play the game.  Weird...

Must be the soul crushing prospect of having to endlessly farm for digital content that means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

[Lokime]

Tennogen when? Me want sexy loki skin B:

[mikakor]

2 minutes ago, Caine2112 said:

DE, is RNG on top of RNG on top of more frustrating RNG the ONLY way you know how to create rewards and drop tables?  There are FAR better paradigms out there on how to distribute rewards, such as placing these new rewards in the Arbitration vendor and thereby drastically reducing the polluted drop tables and increasing Vitus Essence drops to be used as currency/crafting resources.  This way, folks can play the game and not need to focus on having to get that super rare arcane or mod 10x times in order to rank it to max.  Just collect Vitus Essence (just like standing with Cetus and Vox) and *GASP* buy the item you want/need.

By the great Tenno gawds, enough with the frustrating and tiresome RNG drop tables!!

I haven't played Warframe in 3 weeks, and honestly, I actually feel better now not playing than I do when I do play the game.  Weird...

Must be the soul crushing prospect of having to endlessly farm for digital content that means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Maybe because they completely ignored any feedback, giving you the impression ( and truth ) that they don't care about said feedback. And us.

[Libpea]

At the devs:
How to make a good game: Everyone, lets imagine yourself playing the game, who do you want to be? who do you want to become? what do you want to be capable of doing? How do you want to defeat the enemy? What do you want to have alongside you? How do you want to play with other?....

How to make a bad game: Everyone, get around the table, we need to brainstorm, to think of new items, new gears in the game for players to collect.

 

[master_of_destiny]

So, math.  Let's do a bit.  

Rotation rewards are now A,A,B,B,C,C,C,C...

The easiest way to express this is a per 2 rotations old to two new rotations.  

 

Old:

A: 36.5% chance of 1300 endo.  This averages out to 474.5 endo for two rounds.  Alternatively, each round would average to 237.25 endo per round.

B: 48% chance of 1600 endo.  This averages out to 768 endo for two rounds.  Alternatively, each round would average to 384 endo per round.

C : 47.5% chance of 2000 endo.  This averages out to 950 endo for two rounds.  Alternatively, each round would average to 475 endo per round.

New:

A: 40% chance of 900 endo.  This averages out to 360 endo per rounds.

B: 39.5% chance of 1200 endo.  This averages out to 474 endo per round.

C : 29.5% chance of 1500 endo.  This averages out to 442.5 endo per round.

 

This means the endo farm is better on round A and B (on average).  It also means that the longer you play the worse the endo rewards get.  What it doesn't factor in is the Sculptures, but I'm not going to include them.  They require you then go out and farm up a bunch of stars to get the full value, so they're just a false value proposition.

 

What about the feeling?  That's a touch more interesting.  Your reward possibilities are where the RNG nature of rewards becomes an issue.  There's a rather interesting bit of this math that people don't often take into account, and that's that averages (as calculated above) don't represent a single run but a functionally huge number of them.  When you get one arbitration per hour, and spread out enough runs to be statistically significant, you'll suddenly be less optimistic.  Before there was a 36.5% chance of endo and a corresponding 63.5% chance of not getting endo.  This means that the likelihood of getting no endo in a 6 round run was 63.5*52*52.5 or 17.3% chance of not getting endo.  Now you've got a 60*60*60.5*60.5*70.5*70.5 or 6.5% chance of getting no endo.

Mathematically then, 30 minutes in the old arbitration generates less endo on average (1096.25 vs. 1276.5).  The older rewards structure offers a greater chance on getting no endo directly as a reward (17.3% versus 6.5%).  The new mode only cannibalized the endo rewards (except 0.5% for the aura forma on A round), and is now adding vitus essence and auras/arcanes.

 

Despite all of the math adding up, what still makes me hate this change?

1-3% drop rates for game modes meant to be "the ultimate challenge."  The "end game" rewards are auras and arcanes that are meh at best, because their usage windows even at full upgrade are limited.  The auras are also trash, because they either mimic mods that already exist, or are positive negatives that mean nothing when Corrosive Projection exists and is the only way to deal with the armor scaling insanity that arbitrations highlight painfully.

Let's strip out the new auras and arcanes.  Each new arcane can cost 5 vitus essence and the auras can cost 20.  That's 20 for an aura that is likely to be not entirely positive and 20+ endo for an aura.  Plow all 20-30% drop percentages that you freed up into two unit Vitus essence drops (10%) and the rest into rolling guard, vigorous swap, adaptation, and the ephemera.  Call it Arbitrations 2.1, and consider it a complete success.  There's plenty of reason to keep playing, the rewards are great, and we get to decide when the stuff is earned rather than pray to RNGesus.

 

This is Eidolons all over again, with a slightly different artificial timer.  Instead of 45 minutes every few hours you've got once an hour and even worse drop percentage chances.  After several hundred runs, I still don't have 10 copies of each arcane (barrier, energize, aegis, and another escape me despite having about 60 healings).  You don't get a happier fan base by extending play with crappy RNG mechanics, and you definitely don't get players willing to spend money.  Can you please just not ruin another game mode with crap RNG?  Every freaking time you get something that might be fun the last step ruins it.  Sabot Rounds (1 after about 120 Profit-Taker deaths), Lato and Braton Vandals (still looking for Lato parts 100+ full rounds, A-A-B-C, in), and Adaptation/Rolling Guard buried behind crap drop rates which require cheese because your health/armor mechanics are terrifyingly bad.

 

 

The equation you are looking for is an S-curve, not a logarithmic function.  S-Curves start with minimal reaction, reach a window where they have a large response, and then plateau.  This is what armor should do, so that the early game is more forgiving, as you gain power enemies gain power too, and that as you plateau your enemies can plateau slightly beyond what you are to remain a challenge.  

But what about the few levels where certain low level enemies would suddenly be amazing?  Simply start the higher level enemies up the scale.  But what about everything being better than the player?  The heavies are better than the player, but the standard enemies get to be less than the player and compensate with numbers (think Dynasty Warriors).  What about the bosses?  Mechanics trump stats.  Give them the health and armor of a heavy, but extra mechanics.  Think Lech Krill, the sisters from the sabatoges in the void, or even the Razorback.

Once you fix the broken scaling, change the rewards from some crappy RNG to earned, and start listening to feedback instead of collecting multiple forum pages and doing nothing with it until a year later (read: the rewards for arbitration sucked and everyone provided that feedback, but only now are we doing things in September 2019 after an October 2018 launch) we'll be happier.  Right now, you're functionally mirroring Bioware.  How exactly did Anthem turn out again....oh yeah...what a thunderous failure......Can you maybe not do that?  Maybe not say you are listening and then demonstrate you either aren't or don't care.

 

How's that Chinese backlash going?  Maybe it's time to speak with us rather than at us.  Maybe it's time to drop the thread of this being a personal attack, and listen to what the players want.  Here's a clue, if they say rewards and content now maybe they're actually asking for something to do.  Maybe instead of the words, you understand the sentiment that the Nightwave failed to give us appreciable dailies, and that content is too sparse.  Maybe, just maybe, you start by fixing crap rewards based on RNG to be based upon using consistent rewards to get good rewards we choose, and having the RNG require less than 100 runs for 25% of your player base to ever see.

We don't want you to give us stuff, we want to have things that we want to earn.  If you don't understand that, and we're a vocal minority, then please continue.  The easiest way to not want to play Warframe is to play it and discover the flaws baked into the core.  My friends list is tribute to that.  

[Eru8000]

My visuals seem to be broken after this hotfix 😕 Prior to it, my Nvidia GTX 1050Ti was getting buttery smooth performance everywhere on medium-high settings at 1080p, but now it is running sub-60 fps even with the auto dynamic resolution enabled. Has anyone else experienced something similar?

[dixosh]

I think after this hotfix volt`s shield dont apply his crit bonus and elec bonus correctly please verify this thank

[Cephalon_Baphoma]

3 hours ago, TheFatDrake said:

Why would I want to revive a rando who clearly isn’t prepared for this game mode? Why would I want to burden others with my ineptitude. Why are we casualizing a supposed high end game mode? When should we reward people who leech off the game mode and punish people who came prepared?

The rewards now make the mode more enticing to play, but the revive system trivializes its purpose. It’s a high difficulty game mode where if you’re unprepared you’re penalized. You might as well give us our 4-6 revives back.

Bit of a counter point. Sometimes right, you just die. Ive been Revenant with 10 skins left, and all of a sudden I'm dead. Or any warframe with Quick Thinking, suddenly dead. If you dont want to revive them. Dont revive them. Simple. 

[White_Matter]

27 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

So, math.  Let's do a bit.  

Rotation rewards are now A,A,B,B,C,C,C,C...

The easiest way to express this is a per 2 rotations old to two new rotations.  

 

Old:

A: 36.5% chance of 1300 endo.  This averages out to 474.5 endo for two rounds.  Alternatively, each round would average to 237.25 endo per round.

B: 48% chance of 1600 endo.  This averages out to 768 endo for two rounds.  Alternatively, each round would average to 384 endo per round.

C : 47.5% chance of 2000 endo.  This averages out to 950 endo for two rounds.  Alternatively, each round would average to 475 endo per round.

New:

A: 40% chance of 900 endo.  This averages out to 360 endo per rounds.

B: 39.5% chance of 1200 endo.  This averages out to 474 endo per round.

C : 29.5% chance of 1500 endo.  This averages out to 442.5 endo per round.

 

This means the endo farm is better on round A and B (on average).  It also means that the longer you play the worse the endo rewards get.  What it doesn't factor in is the Sculptures, but I'm not going to include them.  They require you then go out and farm up a bunch of stars to get the full value, so they're just a false value proposition.

 

What about the feeling?  That's a touch more interesting.  Your reward possibilities are where the RNG nature of rewards becomes an issue.  There's a rather interesting bit of this math that people don't often take into account, and that's that averages (as calculated above) don't represent a single run but a functionally huge number of them.  When you get one arbitration per hour, and spread out enough runs to be statistically significant, you'll suddenly be less optimistic.  Before there was a 36.5% chance of endo and a corresponding 63.5% chance of not getting endo.  This means that the likelihood of getting no endo in a 6 round run was 63.5*52*52.5 or 17.3% chance of not getting endo.  Now you've got a 60*60*60.5*60.5*70.5*70.5 or 6.5% chance of getting no endo.

Mathematically then, 30 minutes in the old arbitration generates less endo on average (1096.25 vs. 1276.5).  The older rewards structure offers a greater chance on getting no endo directly as a reward (17.3% versus 6.5%).  The new mode only cannibalized the endo rewards (except 0.5% for the aura forma on A round), and is now adding vitus essence and auras/arcanes.

 

Despite all of the math adding up, what still makes me hate this change?

1-3% drop rates for game modes meant to be "the ultimate challenge."  The "end game" rewards are auras and arcanes that are meh at best, because their usage windows even at full upgrade are limited.  The auras are also trash, because they either mimic mods that already exist, or are positive negatives that mean nothing when Corrosive Projection exists and is the only way to deal with the armor scaling insanity that arbitrations highlight painfully.

Let's strip out the new auras and arcanes.  Each new arcane can cost 5 vitus essence and the auras can cost 20.  That's 20 for an aura that is likely to be not entirely positive and 20+ endo for an aura.  Plow all 20-30% drop percentages that you freed up into two unit Vitus essence drops (10%) and the rest into rolling guard, vigorous swap, adaptation, and the ephemera.  Call it Arbitrations 2.1, and consider it a complete success.  There's plenty of reason to keep playing, the rewards are great, and we get to decide when the stuff is earned rather than pray to RNGesus.

 

This is Eidolons all over again, with a slightly different artificial timer.  Instead of 45 minutes every few hours you've got once an hour and even worse drop percentage chances.  After several hundred runs, I still don't have 10 copies of each arcane (barrier, energize, aegis, and another escape me despite having about 60 healings).  You don't get a happier fan base by extending play with crappy RNG mechanics, and you definitely don't get players willing to spend money.  Can you please just not ruin another game mode with crap RNG?  Every freaking time you get something that might be fun the last step ruins it.  Sabot Rounds (1 after about 120 Profit-Taker deaths), Lato and Braton Vandals (still looking for Lato parts 100+ full rounds, A-A-B-C, in), and Adaptation/Rolling Guard buried behind crap drop rates which require cheese because your health/armor mechanics are terrifyingly bad.

 

 

The equation you are looking for is an S-curve, not a logarithmic function.  S-Curves start with minimal reaction, reach a window where they have a large response, and then plateau.  This is what armor should do, so that the early game is more forgiving, as you gain power enemies gain power too, and that as you plateau your enemies can plateau slightly beyond what you are to remain a challenge.  

But what about the few levels where certain low level enemies would suddenly be amazing?  Simply start the higher level enemies up the scale.  But what about everything being better than the player?  The heavies are better than the player, but the standard enemies get to be less than the player and compensate with numbers (think Dynasty Warriors).  What about the bosses?  Mechanics trump stats.  Give them the health and armor of a heavy, but extra mechanics.  Think Lech Krill, the sisters from the sabatoges in the void, or even the Razorback.

Once you fix the broken scaling, change the rewards from some crappy RNG to earned, and start listening to feedback instead of collecting multiple forum pages and doing nothing with it until a year later (read: the rewards for arbitration sucked and everyone provided that feedback, but only now are we doing things in September 2019 after an October 2018 launch) we'll be happier.  Right now, you're functionally mirroring Bungie.  How exactly did Anthem turn out again....oh yeah...what a thunderous failure......Can you maybe not do that?  Maybe not say you are listening and then demonstrate you either aren't or don't care.

 

How's that Chinese backlash going?  Maybe it's time to speak with us rather than at us.  Maybe it's time to drop the thread of this being a personal attack, and listen to what the players want.  Here's a clue, if they say rewards and content now maybe they're actually asking for something to do.  Maybe instead of the words, you understand the sentiment that the Nightwave failed to give us appreciable dailies, and that content is too sparse.  Maybe, just maybe, you start by fixing crap rewards based on RNG to be based upon using consistent rewards to get good rewards we choose, and having the RNG require less than 100 runs for 25% of your player base to ever see.

We don't want you to give us stuff, we want to have things that we want to earn.  If you don't understand that, and we're a vocal minority, then please continue.  The easiest way to not want to play Warframe is to play it and discover the flaws baked into the core.  My friends list is tribute to that.  

Underrated post

[mikakor]

26 minutes ago, Cephalon_Pestilence said:

Bit of a counter point. Sometimes right, you just die. Ive been Revenant with 10 skins left, and all of a sudden I'm dead. Or any warframe with Quick Thinking, suddenly dead. If you dont want to revive them. Dont revive them. Simple. 

It's not as simple as that. If it was, then I couldn't care less about revives, and I'm sure a lot wouldn't care anymore.

The problem with revive is that we are actively punished by other players who died. We get hit by revive burden, being given index-like debuff. The true problem is that you either get rid of these thing by collecting 5 and reviving this idiot who died in wave one, or you die and left. The problem is that because of the dead player, you get handicapped. And there is only one way to get rid of a burden if you accidentally grab it, it's to grab 5 and Rez him. While most players there DON'T want to revive the players who died. So the revive mechanic ( or more precisely the revive burden tokens ) are actively harming the overall experience by weakening us.

Again, if you could drop them manually, or manually chose to pick them up ( which would be the best ) it wouldn't be that much of a problem anymore, and some may even want to take the risk, now that it wouldn't be forced on us anymore.

[EnemyST4ND]

This is a fantastic patch. Standing ovation. Thank you very much, DE.