How can you like the new melee?

[Loza03]

3 hours ago, Diangelius said:

I don't enjoy it. The melee 3.0 has 1 nice point which helps you not hesitate to use any melee. Apart from that point, all melees are too normal, none is special, none is distinctive, mods become mediocre.

That was true of old melee too though, more or less.

There really wasn't much difference between melee classes then and there aren't now. At most there were the combos which basically meant 'is this weapon a complete nightmare to use properly?'

People didn't use the Atterax because the Atterax was a good weapon, or a cool weapon or really changed up how you played. People played Atterax because it was the best for Maiming Strike spam. People played Orthos because it was the best for quick attack spam. People didn't like the weapons, people liked the strats. That's still true, but the strats have changed.

[Fallen77]

il y a 1 minute, tyreens a dit :

Dude first you didn't read my posts and stop being offensive. I never said that pre update was the best thing i've ever seen. I said that i would prefer the pre update over the current because they are both utterly unbalanced. That is a subjective decision. I'm repeating myself: i don't demand perfect balance but this game is so utterly unbalanced in every way you can't be serious to say that it would render some game mods way too easy. Warframe is and will always be a brain dead grinder. You are wrong, you were never forced to play spin2win or co. This is a pve game witout any competion. You can play whatever you want. If you need the challange you could play with a level 1 skana without mods and nobody but you is suffering from it. If i want to play a range meta build and kill multiple enemys with spinning, so what ? What harm do you have from it? Right, none. It is just selfish to hate against a playstyle that other might be enjoying for a long time. I'm just against a new system that is nerfing some existing mechanics to the ground and rendering them useless. Every existing melee mechanic can have it's place in warframe. But the way DE tried to balance things in this update are a completly mess.

You're just dancing around the facts again. Me and another guy already explained to you how your definition of unbalanced is utterly wrong.

And YOU need to read properly my post. No mission can be properly challenging if one aspect of the game is ten time stronger than all others, thus you are forced to use those weapons or make way too ez missions. 

And your excuse of "use an unmoded skana"... Really, you'll use that sheet excuse ? How about YOU go use your fully moded weapons on Eprime ? That way you won't feel the nerf to your previously op, meta defining and game breaking weapons.

[KoalaMan756]

I can't say much for the melee mods, but I do like about the recent melee system they added since the combos are way better to perform and the melee combo outcomes show improvements compare to the old one.

Like for example, you got crushing ruin that used to require following through the  spin combo step-by-step in order. Keep in mind, it was easy to perform that combo part but when you actually see it in action, all you end up doing is either flying or skiing across the room in a ridiculous speed that's impossible to control. While it was fun to use the old mechanic for entertainments, it's combo was inefficient against enemies.

With the new melee combos however, it was tone down to where you won't fly or ski so far anymore. Plus, they made the spin combo super easy to perform so you can't argue with that.

Overall, this 3.0 melee system is much better than the old in my opinion. Even though some of the outcome behind this update led to some unfortunate nerfs on our favorite weapons, this system made me feel like I could rely more on melee than my primary/secondary weapons.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

3 hours ago, ant99999 said:

What Lifestrike? Ah, that strange mod that is just a weaker and less convenient to use version of Magus Repair since Profit Taker update...

Sure, this melee update destroyed it like nothing else! Take that, instantly healing everything around spasekid.

Healing return still exists but since it's not a super heal Ppl ignore it

[CodeUltimate]

18 minutes ago, KoalaMan756 said:

I can't say much for the melee mods, but I do like about the recent melee system they added since the combos are way better to perform and the melee combo outcomes show improvements compare to the old one.

Like for example, you got crushing ruin that used to require following through the  spin combo step-by-step in order. Keep in mind, it was easy to perform that combo part but when you actually see it in action, all you end up doing is either flying or skiing across the room in a ridiculous speed that's impossible to control. While it was fun to use the old mechanic for entertainments, it's combo was inefficient against enemies.

With the new melee combos however, it was tone down to where you won't fly or ski so far anymore. Plus, they made the spin combo super easy to perform so you can't argue with that.

Overall, this 3.0 melee system is much better than the old in my opinion. Even though some of the outcome behind this update led to some unfortunate nerfs on our favorite weapons, this system made me feel like I could rely more on melee than my primary/secondary weapons.

While I agree that spin2win deserved a nerf, status only weapons died because CO doesn't scale as much as before. Gunblades became worst too, less fluid and less damage.

And don't even get me started on thrown melee. Xd

Edited November 9, 2019 by CodeUltimate
8v

[ant99999]

1 час назад, tyreens сказал:

Again balance is not reached by nerfing "mechanic a" to the ground and buffing "mechanic b" up. It has nothing to do with not capable of accepting changes, disliking such a new system. I don't understand the hate against some mechanics. It is a non competitve pve game. Don't play a specific weapon or mod it if you don't like but let all mechanics viable like spin4win and the range system. Just buff them all up to the same level.

I'm sorry, I intended to just answer you and move on, but I just can't hold myself from pointing you to your own ill-logic.

1 час назад, tyreens сказал:

Even if there are some new viable weapons, now there are many which aren't viable anymore.

Let's help Dora the Explorer find viable melee weapons in the old system:

1) we had Plague Kripath polearm, aka one polearm to rule them all and Dokrahm heavy blade, aka one heavy blade to rule them all. Everything else among polearms, heavy blades and other weapons of similar range were just inferior to them (wouldn't be surprised if they still are) because the only things that mattered were range, sc and innate viral/slash

2) we had the Redeemer P aka delete button. You point that thing to an enemy, press E, and as long as the enemy is under level 200 and not immune to status procs, it dies.

3) we had Atterax and Scoliac which was just weapons in case the range of polearm isn't sufficient for some reason

4) finally we had Zenistar. It was the weapon for that case if you really want to make some coffee or someone called you, but you didn't want to pause the game.

So like, 6 choices for 99% of situations.

How many melee weapons are there in the game I wonder? Around 160 it seems.

So they nerfed 6 and buffed 160 relative to them. What an outrageous update! I feel insulted by it personally.

 

1 час назад, tyreens сказал:

It is a non competitve pve game. Don't play a specific weapon or mod it if you don't like

 

Oh no, it's this sh** again. FYI every coming content is balanced around some power level of an average player. Imagine that an event is balanced around a person using some Nikana P (which I feel it usually is), but one player brings old Dakra P to it and the other goes with Scoliac. How much interesting would it be for both of them?

The game itself is built keeping in mind a particular power of a player (for different parts of the game different power obviously). No sane person would do something intentionally worse if there is no point in it and the game itself gives him an opportunity to do it better.

I honestly thought these dumb arguements already died out.

2 часа назад, tyreens сказал:

Just buff them all up to the same level.

Say you went to E Prime on Earth and brought Plague Kripath with you. That sets a certain level of your power. Now you go to a Lich mission when he's at level 5 and you only have unmodded Machete. Don't you think that your power level changed a bit?

So what exactly level should we bring it to and why?

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

44 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

No sane person would do something intentionally worse if there is no point in it and the game itself gives him an opportunity to do it better.

Hey it’s me, the guy who uses ember in denial because she’s my favorite frame

[SpentCasings]

4 hours ago, ant99999 said:

What Lifestrike? Ah, that strange mod that is just a weaker and less convenient to use version of Magus Repair since Profit Taker update...

Sure, this melee update destroyed it like nothing else! Take that, instantly healing everything around spasekid.

You didn't have to stop fighting to use it. Warframe is all about mobility, and something that lets you heal while you are still splitting heads is a GOOD thing. It helps keep your fighting flowing. If i have to stop and then heal myself in operator every few seconds just for a couple HP its annoying. see also: Exalted weps. 

 

But for the most part this melle update can go BURN. 

[Hayzemet]

hace 5 horas, MystikNeko dijo:

But Lifestrike or what was its name got destroyed 

Dw you have magus repair, magus elevate, and healing return

[SpentCasings]

Healing return = another forma, and is not 100% guranteed health, as it relies on status effects being applied.

Arcanes = Stopping your combat to heal. That's not something you had to worry about with life strike. You just tapped a button hit a dude and you where back at full HP. 

[Temp950]

5 hours ago, MystikNeko said:

Hi. 

 

I just want to know from you why the heck you enjoy the new (IMHO game destroying) melee mechanic

Opinions from Inaros+Gram mains preferred since those players are fuked most

i hate it, so much so that I don't feel like playing the game much now. maybe its different for other weapons, but with the ninkondi prime, the new combos are just awful. the previous simple one button combo is now replaced with one that requires the right mouse button as well, which feels really awkward and results in you zooming your gun half the time unelss you equip your melee first. the old windmilling system is back, which makes melee a pretty mindless slog of mashing E and running around.

 

Blood rush is nerfed so badly that many of my favorite weapons are now crap against sortie 2 and higher, and once again I have to use my kripath or the gram prime in those missions rather than weaker weapons boosted up by blood rush  or condition overload.   

I just hope this whole mess is temporary and they stop screwing up stuff that wasn't broken to begin with. I liked the previous melee changes. it made switching weapons more fluid and encouraged switching between melee and guns. Now this change does the exact opposite by making blood rush nearly pointless unless you have a high combo counter, and then introducing a god awful heavy attack system that drains your combo meter for a slow attack that does little damage.  

[White_Matter]

New melee is ok. Good sidegrade to distract us from content drought but it came with alot of issues.

The heavy melee slam doesn't count towards combo points.

So if you perform it by the end of the timer(even if you have inner might) you'll end up losing all your combo points. The whole heavy attack thing was very, very poorly executed. IF they get that in line people may actually start to enjoy new melee. Because at this point it is very inefficient.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by White_Matter

[tyreens]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Fallen77:

And YOU need to read properly my post. No mission can be properly challenging if one aspect of the game is ten time stronger than all others, thus you are forced to use those weapons or make way too ez missions. 

And there you go, you can't read. I didn't said that i want it to be stronger. I'm for balancing all melee mechanics on the same level instead of nerfing one to the ground. I just said that I (for you: my personal opinion) liked the old (broken) system more than the new (broken) system.

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Fallen77:

And your excuse of "use an unmoded skana"... Really, you'll use that sheet excuse ? How about YOU go use your fully moded weapons on Eprime ? That way you won't feel the nerf to your previously op, meta defining and game breaking weapons.

It's not an excuse, what nonsense. If i got an endgame build for whatever mechanic (spin, co, combos or whatever) i want to play every mission with ease and comfort. I just can't understand your unnecessary hate against some mechanics only because they were meta. There are people who like the style of playing it over the others and there is nothing wrong with it. It should be as viable as the other mechanics.

And now the "other guy":

vor einer Stunde schrieb ant99999:

I'm sorry, I intended to just answer you and move on, but I just can't hold myself from pointing you to your own ill-logic.

...

vor einer Stunde schrieb ant99999:

Let's help Dora the Explorer find viable melee weapons in the old system:

1) we had Plague Kripath polearm, aka one polearm to rule them all and Dokrahm heavy blade, aka one heavy blade to rule them all. Everything else among polearms, heavy blades and other weapons of similar range were just inferior to them (wouldn't be surprised if they still are) because the only things that mattered were range, sc and innate viral/slash

2) we had the Redeemer P aka delete button. You point that thing to an enemy, press E, and as long as the enemy is under level 200 and not immune to status procs, it dies.

3) we had Atterax and Scoliac which was just weapons in case the range of polearm isn't sufficient for some reason

4) finally we had Zenistar. It was the weapon for that case if you really want to make some coffee or someone called you, but you didn't want to pause the game.

So like, 6 choices for 99% of situations.

How many melee weapons are there in the game I wonder? Around 160 it seems.

So they nerfed 6 and buffed 160 relative to them. What an outrageous update! I feel insulted by it personally.

It didn't nerf only six weapons, it nerfed a whole mechanic to the ground and that is my problem. I'm not the guy who is defending the old system here. Again i'm against to #*!% up a whole mechanic for another one and that happened. If you can't realize that, than i'm sorry for you.

vor einer Stunde schrieb ant99999:

Oh no, it's this sh** again. FYI every coming content is balanced around some power level of an average player. Imagine that an event is balanced around a person using some Nikana P (which I feel it usually is), but one player brings old Dakra P to it and the other goes with Scoliac. How much interesting would it be for both of them?

I'm not trying to defending the old balancing. But now you face the same unbalanced situation: one player brings a maiming strike spin build and the other one goes for a high crit build.

vor einer Stunde schrieb ant99999:

The game itself is built keeping in mind a particular power of a player (for different parts of the game different power obviously). No sane person would do something intentionally worse if there is no point in it and the game itself gives him an opportunity to do it better.

Yes not many would do that, but u could do it and that's the point. There is nothing to win or lose because it is a non competitive grinder. Even if you find it dumb or not that doesn't change the fact.

vor einer Stunde schrieb ant99999:

I honestly thought these dumb arguements already died out.

...

vor einer Stunde schrieb ant99999:

Say you went to E Prime on Earth and brought Plague Kripath with you. That sets a certain level of your power. Now you go to a Lich mission when he's at level 5 and you only have unmodded Machete. Don't you think that your power level changed a bit?

So what exactly level should we bring it to and why?

You should fail the mission if you come with an unmodded Machete to a level 5 lich and i don't have a problem with killing the whole E prime with one swing of a full modded plague kripath. But that is not the point of my argumentation. If you come now to a level 5 lich with your full modded 7 forma plaque kripath + extremly good spin riven you have a much harder time than just pressing e with "insert another melee weapon with high crit" with only 1 forma. And that is my problem.

[Corvid]

35 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

The heavy melee slam doesn't count towards combo points.

That's by design. Like the heavy attacks in general, the slam consumes the combo to increase damage (it may also increase Lifted duration, but I've not been able to tell for certain).

[Fire2box]

7 hours ago, ant99999 said:

What Lifestrike? Ah, that strange mod that is just a weaker and less convenient to use version of Magus Repair since Profit Taker update...

Sure, this melee update destroyed it like nothing else! Take that, instantly healing everything around spasekid.

Even a year before magus repair we had magus elevate from onkko. Spam 5 to heal something like 2000 HP in under 8 seconds. 

[Fire2box]

2 hours ago, SpentCasings said:

Healing return = another forma, and is not 100% guranteed health, as it relies on status effects being applied.

Arcanes = Stopping your combat to heal. That's not something you had to worry about with life strike. You just tapped a button hit a dude and you where back at full HP. 

I used magus elevate to heal in ESO solo, stopping combat for a few seconds isn't a failure state in warframe. Meanwhile having a mod's who sole purpose is to literally cause the opposite of damage.  :|

[White_Matter]

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

That's by design. Like the heavy attacks in general, the slam consumes the combo to increase damage (it may also increase Lifted duration, but I've not been able to tell for certain).

I know that it is intentional design, I'm just saying it is horrible because you usually run out of combo counter with Zenurik, so the efficiency it grants towards heavy attacks is hardly useful.

 

[ant99999]

46 минут назад, Fire2box сказал:

Even a year before magus repair we had magus elevate from onkko. Spam 5 to heal something like 2000 HP in under 8 seconds. 

Ah yeah, true, I just didn't get to their max rank quickly enough to get it before Repair.

[HonorGuard2074]

8 hours ago, ant99999 said:

What Lifestrike? Ah, that strange mod that is just a weaker and less convenient to use version of Magus Repair since Profit Taker update...

Sure, this melee update destroyed it like nothing else! Take that, instantly healing everything around spasekid.

I disargee

Magnus repair = Break in combo

 

Life strike = No Break + works on the heavy slams and it even got buffed (no energy drain)

[XzWasPzX]

hace 3 horas, SpentCasings dijo:

Healing return = another forma, and is not 100% guranteed health, as it relies on status effects being applied.

Arcanes = Stopping your combat to heal. That's not something you had to worry about with life strike. You just tapped a button hit a dude and you where back at full HP. 

That made many warframes viable. I dont see any Banshee in the Kuva lichs hunts, maybe thats a reason... Indeed, Its been a long time since the last Banshee xD Obvious, now its a suicide. 

[Diangelius]

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

That was true of old melee too though, more or less.

There really wasn't much difference between melee classes then and there aren't now. At most there were the combos which basically meant 'is this weapon a complete nightmare to use properly?'

People didn't use the Atterax because the Atterax was a good weapon, or a cool weapon or really changed up how you played. People played Atterax because it was the best for Maiming Strike spam. People played Orthos because it was the best for quick attack spam. People didn't like the weapons, people liked the strats. That's still true, but the strats have changed.

I have a feeling that your statement proved exactly my point, those specific uses of Atterax, Orthos Prime, blah blah before Melee 3.0 and now you just spam E and you do the same thing with all kinds of melee and you use all melee for same purposes: to mindlessly hack and slash everything. Then it doesn't matter what kind of melee you use (Staff, Polearm, Blade and Whip,... ? Heh, redundant and unnecessary bullsh*ts), you simply need to care about whether they have good stats so you can slap Formas onto them.

I have no opinion about range, but Whip is supposed to have longest range of all melees but now their average 2.5m range is equal or even shorter than some Fists and Sparring (lmao...)

Dagger was supposed to be an awesome assassination tool with Covert Lethality but now you just use it like you're competing with Heavy Blade users because Parazon is there like "f*** you daggers !". Hell I miss the time I used Balla + CL with my Ash to instantly kill some "assassinatable" bosses...

I didn't use "normal" as though the word just popped up in my mind.

Warframe once had some Math memes and now look at the nerf on some Essential Mods' mechanics, I just simply find it boring. One of the best moment I find in WF is figuring out which buffs have unique calculation, like Condition Overload and Blood Rush. Now their buff formula is just too normal...

You are right on the point that melee 2.0 and 2.9999 were also normal (at some aspects), but 3.0 is even more normalized... Anyway, I'll try to figure out which one I should use as META because I lose motivation on making unique melees.

[Zekkii]

6 hours ago, Kylo. said:

You don't like additional damage?

What I mean by that is weeping wounds makes a 13% chance status weapon into 100% status chance at 12x, which is virtually every melee weapon in the game.  Since status caps out at 100%, but critical doesn't, critical is king now.

[Dragmod]

I've been maining Inaros since his release, with a heavy preference for melee. Melee 2.99 never effected me, I just adjusted keybinds and went with it. Same with Melee 3.0. I've been able to adapt to every change and have only improved because of them. My weapon of choice is a Plaque Kewaar dealing 6 statuses at a 100% chance... needless to say, I use CO. And to be honest, since the change, I hit far harder then I ever did before. I never even have a need for heavy attacks, aside for perhaps Nox... sometimes.

So yeah, as a melee main, I have zero complaints about the current system. I'm just glad I dont have to worry about autoblock anymore.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, Diangelius said:

I have a feeling that your statement proved exactly my point, those specific uses of Atterax, Orthos Prime, blah blah before Melee 3.0 and now you just spam E and you do the same thing with all kinds of melee and you use all melee for same purposes: to mindlessly hack and slash everything. Then it doesn't matter what kind of melee you use (Staff, Polearm, Blade and Whip,... ? Heh, redundant and unnecessary bullsh*ts), you simply need to care about whether they have good stats so you can slap Formas onto them.

I have no opinion about range, but Whip is supposed to have longest range of all melees but now their average 2.5m range is equal or even shorter than some Fists and Sparring (lmao...)

Dagger was supposed to be an awesome assassination tool with Covert Lethality but now you just use it like you're competing with Heavy Blade users because Parazon is there like "f*** you daggers !". Hell I miss the time I used Balla + CL with my Ash to instantly kill some "assassinatable" bosses...

I didn't use "normal" as though the word just popped up in my mind.

Warframe once had some Math memes and now look at the nerf on some Essential Mods' mechanics, I just simply find it boring. One of the best moment I find in WF is figuring out which buffs have unique calculation, like Condition Overload and Blood Rush. Now their buff formula is just too normal...

You are right on the point that melee 2.0 and 2.9999 were also normal (at some aspects), but 3.0 is even more normalized... Anyway, I'll try to figure out which one I should use as META because I lose motivation on making unique melees.

It didn't matter what you used before. If daggers could reach 20 metres of range you can bet people would use them too.

Melee is pure numbers game now, and before. There's nothing unique. There wasn't before, there isn't now. Difference is, it's in the process of being reworked, and now that all the baseline stuff is done, it's conceivably possible to change that.

[Kylo.]

34 minutes ago, Zekkii said:

What I mean by that is weeping wounds makes a 13% chance status weapon into 100% status chance at 12x, which is virtually every melee weapon in the game.  Since status caps out at 100%, but critical doesn't, critical is king now.

0.13 * (1+0.4*12) => 1?

 

By my calculations a melee needs at least 18% Status Chance to reach 100% Status chance at 12x Combo Counter.

 

Your calculation would work if Weeping wounds would increase status chance by at least 55.7692% for each Combo Multiplier.