Dev Workshop - Kuva Lich Changes Coming Soon™

[Pikaapooo]

46 minutes ago, Zarcxon said:

@[DE]Bear Does DE have any plans to do anything about weapons with worse up-grades like getting a 20% kuva kohm after having a 50% kuva kohm? because i have no reason to go out of my way to get that kohm other then getting the lich out of my way and retry again.

We tenno have lives too and we feel like our time isnt being valued here.

Yes! Totally agree!!!!!!

[Oreades]

Just now, LSG501 said:

To be fair there is an 'easier' way to solve the issue with wanting better stats.... just have a fixed stat instead of rng stats.  Keep the 'rng' on the element and leave it at that. 

Wait I thought the only thing that had RNG was the elemental stat?

Regardless if there is any RNG stat people are always going to be shooting for perfect so they either ditch all RNG from the weapons or they keep RNG. 

If you're talking about the RNG on the element itself that isn't RNG at all, that is determined by the frame you kill it with. It's like the only thing that is actually modifying the Lich in any way related to the frames we use to create it. 

[Genoscythe]

Il y a 2 heures, [DE]Bear a dit :

• WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

While this is a step in the right direction, I feel like this is not enough. What exactly would be the problem of being able to reliably get all new weapons first, and then have the duplicates rolling in?

[Wiz3rd]

3 minutes ago, Genoscythe said:

While this is a step in the right direction, I feel like this is not enough. What exactly would be the problem of being able to reliably get all new weapons first, and then have the duplicates rolling in?

Exactly.
You could even make the order of acquiring them random but let us just get the full collection, then do whatever you want with it.
If the RNG is tied to short and repeatable drops it's fine, but that's only because it averages out fast.
Getting a random weapon every few in-game hours of playtime can be extremely frustrating, and the proposed change doesn't fix any of that.

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

I appreciate these changes overall, but I have to say that the changes towards the Requiem mods such as this new transmutation addition, making relics more common, etc. wouldn't have needed to be done if you had just removed the "charge" system altogether. It still adds an unnecessary grind to the Kuva Lich gameplay and drags it down. I still think it would be better to let us, at the very least, use Kuva and/or Endo to recharge them if not removing the mechanic entirely. I also think adding mods with limited numbers of uses is just a bad idea overall for the game's future.

Plus the Kuva Lich Hunter collection is still overpriced when the main item advertised is a consumable resource essentially. I wouldn't mind it costing 835 Platinum if the Requiem mods didn't have a limited number of uses.

[Syius]

When player uncovers all 3 required mods, there is still order of said mods that is fully RNG. In current design player is beeing PUNISHED (loss of affinity and lich enrage metter) for doing all mechanics correctly and not having luck.  Constant unwarranted punishment makes Liches to be annoying and tireing instead of engaging.

Maybe it would be better to have Lich "die" if you use wrong combination just to be ressurected, leveling up and runing away from mission. In situation that player would be diractly killed by Lich or its Thralls then player should be punished not when doing 100% of things that are avaliable.

That would demonstrate their immortality,which would fit more idea of first mortal changing to Lich then Lich beeing immortal. Right now we dont even see this "immortality" Kuva Liches constantly talk about.

[papyrus2017]

I like the anti-duplicates, but maybe make it two or three Liches, cause I did three and got to Kuva Seers.

[MissArgent]

I've been wondering about the utility of converted liches and how they could be made a little more enticing. Perhaps in addition to the current functionality, a Gravimag-esque item could be implemented (let's call it a Lich Phylactery) that allows the player to turn a converted lich into a regular companion with a offensive niche similar to that of a Helminth Charger?

[KIREEK]

2 questions

Will defiled requiem mods be used for something else in the future? This feels like you want players to deplete them and then introduce a system that requires the mods and the regrind begins

Trading ephemeras is a design flaw? Because you convert to get the tradable lich, sell it, that player does the lich, converts it aswell, then sells it. So the same lich provides multiple ephemeras to players, is this intentional?

[iSolement]

So is the melee change done? Is it already perfect with that additive formula that makes cc stats useless?

[Kaokasalis]

I hope we get a way to deal with other players liches if they refuse to stab them after downing the liches.

[Ace_Kayo]

I hope this is just the start of the changes, because this system needs far more work than that. As other have stated, this not a co-op friendly system at all. What's the sense of all this if you can't even play with your friends with this system most of the time? You can only play with friends if the litches share the same mission as you do. Most people I know are irritated at this and the whole layers of RNG.  Slightly tweaking the RNG isn't going to fix its core problems.

RNG on the elemental percent is a bad move anyway you slice it; for instance since you aren't even sure what weapon you will get next anyways it might not be the right element you want for that weapon. Considering the RNG as it is now, it would take about 40+ litches (on average) just to get all the weapons. I doubt tweaking the RNG ever so slightly is going to help that much with this whole grind-feast.

[Llamatronian]

3 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

... while maintaining the design intent

The design intent is one of the first things I would be questioning.

It seems like you intended for us to do the same grind several dozen times in order to get one of each weapon, and then keep going for the chance of small upgrades to those weapons. This isn't fun.

[Yoruno]

Speaking as someone who isn't really interested in getting more MR or collecting stronger weapons since my current loadouts are good enough to deal with current high level, my concerns are the current state of specters which converted liches are using, and the size of dojo room.

Convert liches currently don't seem to be using their abilities. The spawn rate is too RNG reliant, and the duration they stay in mission is also really lackluster. On top of that their damage is pretty abysmal like any other specters except for umbra since his weapon damage takes account of mods. For something that you pick in place of a full functioning weapon the trade-off is really off.

Time-gates on deleting rooms and, to lesser extent, the 100-room limit really makes changing dojo layouts undesirable so depending on the size of this kingpin room and possible future expansions like drydock its gonna be annoying.

Other than that the changes sound good, should help alleviate the RNG reliant grind alittle.

[TheSteelRat]

I really dislike doing Pubs and having my Lich show up without knowing all 3 Murmurs.  Then having to waste time doing Lich nodes hoping he shows up and gaining nothing by killing thralls after getting 3 Murmurs completed... no it does not carry over to the next Lich.  it gets worse when they do not have the weapon or Ephemera i am looking for

The PArazon mod screen needs to have the Requiems tried. and the mods tried should have the name show up on Hover.  Been giving them nicknames to try and remember but it is hard.

 

[Anthraxicus]

3 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

 

• MORE TO COME - We are looking at other ways in which we can make the Kuva Lich system more rewarding and unique, although there is still a lot of internal discussion surrounding the ‘hows’ while maintaining the design intent. More on this as it is finalized.

Monitoring, tweaking and balancing this new process is an ongoing effort, and we rely on your feedback to let us know what you think. Please keep your feedback constructive and succinct, making sure you give suggestions to systems you do not like, while detailing why you do like a system, should that be your opinion.

The hunt continues!
 

You could start by easing the pain of farming a ton of murmurs. It is extremely boring, especially with how limited are the thralls.

Oh, and make the Lich appear a bit more often, cuz getting them to appear is also boring as hell, to the point I don't even wanna kill my second Lich anymore. 

[Spark_Daddy]

3 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Greeting, Lich Hunters!

After the release of the Kuva Lich System in Update 26: The Old Blood, you have been providing us a lot of feedback on what you do and don’t like about hunting your personal Lich. While we have made many improvements over the past week, we have more to come. We are adding the following very soon, based on your feedback:

• WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.
• RECYCLE YOUR REQUIEM - 4 Defiled Requiem Mods can now be Transmuted into a random, fully charged, Requiem Mod. This gives them some additional use, as well as helping you clean up your inventory.
• TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!
• MORE TO COME - We are looking at other ways in which we can make the Kuva Lich system more rewarding and unique, although there is still a lot of internal discussion surrounding the ‘hows’ while maintaining the design intent. More on this as it is finalized.

Monitoring, tweaking and balancing this new process is an ongoing effort, and we rely on your feedback to let us know what you think. Please keep your feedback constructive and succinct, making sure you give suggestions to systems you do not like, while detailing why you do like a system, should that be your opinion.

The hunt continues!
 

Just a suggestion. But how about really harsh missions with extreme handicaps and hazard that if you and a team somehow beat, you get to pick from 3 rewards of a specific type
Reward One: Choose from any Requrium Mod
Reward Two: Choose from a list of rare mods
Reward Three: Choose a 1 day booster of your choice. 

Note the missions need to be hard. And I mean just outright neckstompingly harsh.  Sure you already got Nightmare missions *Which are actually pretty easy.*. But imagine having a set of missions where: 
1: No Warframe Abilities(And no operator mode abilities either),
2: Being slowed down(Like having a Hobled Dragon Key on),
3: Unable to bullet jump or sprint / Void Dash or Void Mode,
4: no shields and half HP,
5: limited ammo + no ammo/hp/eng orbs/boxes,
6: 1 Life Only.
7: 1-3 Rewards based on Performance and Team Survivability (How many people extracted, how many enemies got killed, how many times someone helped a downed squaddie*The fewer the better*, etc.) 

All that is combined into facing a large map where you need to escape overwhelming enemy forces while completing various objectives instead of just one or two things. 

I wanna be challenged and earn a set of garunteed rewards. 
 

[Xazur]

TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!

Hold up, is this THE kuva lich trading system we are getting? or one of the ways we can trade liches? I am also not understanding what this even says. So our converted liches can be traded to someone else so they can get their weapon/ephemera? How? We go out of our trouble to convert a lich we don't want, so we can give it to someone else, and then they can get this lich as their nemesis? They do the whole shebang and then can choose to vanquish or convert the lich as well? Exactly how does this help anyone who just doesn't want to do their current lich?

I thought about it some more and ended up at the conclusion that this is simply riven trading all over again is it not? We convert liches, basically turning them into rivens. Then we trade the liches to others who want said rivens for other rivens we want or pay with platinum.

[R34LM]

1 hour ago, Syius said:

When player uncovers all 3 required mods, there is still order of said mods that is fully RNG. In current design player is beeing PUNISHED (loss of affinity and lich enrage metter) for doing all mechanics correctly and not having luck.  Constant unwarranted punishment makes Liches to be annoying and tireing instead of engaging.

Maybe it would be better to have Lich "die" if you use wrong combination just to be ressurected, leveling up and runing away from mission. In situation that player would be diractly killed by Lich or its Thralls then player should be punished not when doing 100% of things that are avaliable.

That would demonstrate their immortality,which would fit more idea of first mortal changing to Lich then Lich beeing immortal. Right now we dont even see this "immortality" Kuva Liches constantly talk about.

This is something I don't see enough people mentioning. No amount of skill will save you from dying just because you guessed the order of the requiems incorrectly, which makes this annoying and not actually difficult.

[Spark_Daddy]

5 minutes ago, Xazur said:

TRADE YOUR LICH - If you have a Converted Kuva Lich, you may trade them with another player, who may be looking for a specific Kuva Lich Weapon or Ephemera. This system will be coming soon, including the use of a brand new Dojo Room inspired by the early ‘War Room’ design from the King Pin System!

Hold up, is this THE kuva lich trading system we are getting? or one of the ways we can trade liches? I am also not understanding what this even says. So our converted liches can be traded to someone else so they can get their weapon/ephemera? How? We go out of our trouble to convert a lich we don't want, so we can give it to someone else, and then they can get this lich as their nemesis? They do the whole shebang and then can choose to vanquish or convert the lich as well? Exactly how does this help anyone who just doesn't want to do their current lich?

"Tradeing" Isn't the same as "Giving". Nothing in the post says the word "Give".  

[Xazur]

15 minutes ago, Schrodinger314 said:

"Tradeing" Isn't the same as "Giving". Nothing in the post says the word "Give".  

Okay, even so. After thinking about it more, essentially this kuva lich trading is basically riven mod trading. Waiting for trading chat to be spammed with WTB> Kuva lich with Vengeful Toxin Ephemera 400p. 

Also it doesn't help to fix what players originally wanted, which was a way to NOT have to do the kuva liches that they got if they happened to not want them or if they were dupes. I might just be jumping to conclusions but this is just what it feels like when they don't fully explain systems they plan to implement. It's like making a card game without explaining the rules.

[Basqui]

4 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

WEAPON RNG REDUCTION - Your Kuva Lich will no longer have the same weapon twice in a row. While you may get a duplicated weapon down the road, your Kuva Lich will have a guaranteed different weapon than its immediate predecessor.

Dang, my third lich had the same weapon as my second one, so i probably wont be touching anything lich related anytime soon.

[Oblivious_Jericho]

Been playing this game for over 5 years. I'm beyond disappointed with this recent update. Glad to see the changes will hopefully redeem this absolute mess of layered artificial difficult, and completely nonsensical RNG, but as for me. I'm done. Good bye warframe, this is me signing off after 5 years of being tired of lackluster content updates and absolute mind numbing game play finally becoming stale. I eventually hope DE pulls their head from their rear and actually can manage to produce redeemable content that might change my mind in the future. 


Still never got my lotus ephemera from tenno-con 2019 stream, but that seems to be typical error at this point Lol.

[Horned_Fox]

The drop rates need to skew towards weapons you have not acquired. Once you get at least one copy of every weapon then it can balance back out. That way if u do not want to spend a whole lot of time farming liches and just get the mastery then you can do that easier.

[Zoh_Veldae]

Cool cool. All good upgrades to the system, no doubt. But could you also add something along the lines of:

- Slowing down the level up process of Liches or at least add some benefits to leveling up the Lich, such as raising their dropped weapon's bonus up to a cap according to their level.

- Have kill attempts give at least SOME murmur progress to other squadmates like it used to, even if only half of what it gives to the Liche's owner.

- Show the name of the Liche's owner on the HP bar when it shows up in a mission, or add a little note on their "X to kill" prompt saying the owner's name.

- Reduce the required Forma to max out Kuva weapons from 5 (+2 levels per Forma) to 2 (+5 levels per Forma). It was cute when Paracesis did it on its own, it's not fun when a whole series of weapons does it.

- Actually have our scanner with the Data-Parse Widget show us the specific Liche's elemental weaknesses and resistances instead of the standard Grineer Armor stats.

- Reduce the required murmur progress on the 3rd Requiem clue to at least half of what it is now, or ideally make it equal to the 1st and 2nd clue's requirement.

- Add some system to also know the Requiem order beyond just trial and error.

- Add a few more personality types to female Liches, the standard one is getting annoyingly repetitive.

- Give us the option to manually select and bring a converted Kuva Lich with us on missions.

 

Just a few tiny little adjustments, it shouldn't take much to implement and it will go a long way to make the new system more enjoyable. I'm sure you'll understand.