Trying to make any single sense out of revenant lore

[Madway7]

8 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

>Additionally, when his Shield depletes, Revenant emits a radial blast that knocks down nearby enemies.

So you want the most Eidolon-based thing in his kit to go away?

Yeah I remember how horrible those 10m AoE knockdowns were when doing eidolons. Glad we had Harrows to make us status immune and prevent that 100 damage from killing us  =P

[General-Pacman]

1 hour ago, Aadi880 said:

The game implies that sentients is unable to reproduce.

Reproduction is a necessity in order for an object to be classified as "living". This is the exact reason why the great sentient attacked the Unum tower, as the power it sensed there can help its kind to reproduce

Sentients werent naturally unable to reproduce. It was the void jump from Tau what made them sterile, but they were created with the ability to breed (which is mentioned by Ballas himself in one of the Vitruvian entries, during The Sacrifice). So they still qualify as living beings.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

32 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

>Additionally, when his Shield depletes, Revenant emits a radial blast that knocks down nearby enemies.

So you want the most Eidolon-based thing in his kit to go away?

It’s Eidolon themed but it’s a garbage passive. We could easily get something better.

Edited February 5, 2020 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

22 minutes ago, Troposphere6 said:

Vomvalyst do this when you break there physical bodies. 

Reave used to be a wall of mist. They changed it to look like a vomby dash while keeping all the vampire mechanics attached to it.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yes she is. She feeds on blood, she has a mirror-themed power, she's a vampire. Just because she's named after Vishnu's steed doesn't mean she's not a blood-sucking predator

And dont forget her Bathory helmet. DE have clearly had one specific "vampire" in mind the whole time with that specific frame. Plus if you look at her frame, she has very "noble" aestethics. And when you start reading myths about the lady behind the theme, the whole blood letting and morbid altars aswell as the self inflicted pain fits very very well.

[Troposphere6]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Reave used to be a wall of mist. They changed it to look like a vomby dash while keeping all the vampire mechanics attached to it.

It doesn't change the fact that the vombys do it though you seemed to be implying that it had nothing to do with eidolon. I was merely pointing out that it did

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Just now, Troposphere6 said:

It doesn't change the fact that the vombys do it though you seemed to be implying that it had nothing to do with eidolon. I was merely pointing out that it did

Because the ability has nothing to do with Eidolons. Just because they painted it up to look Eidolon-y doesn’t mean it isn’t still the same garbage vampire ability.

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

11 hours ago, DarthIronclad said:

Inb4 gears complaining about rev not being eidolon themed 

So far it's been a good read 🤣

[0_The_F00l]

9 hours ago, Aadi880 said:

One think to note.

 The game implies that sentients is unable to reproduce.

Reproduction is a necessity in order for an object to be classified as "living". This is the exact reason why the great sentient attacked the Unum tower, as the power it sensed there can help its kind to reproduce.

Incorrect,

They were rendered sterile due to void poisoning. 

[Corvid]

23 hours ago, Aadi880 said:

The game implies that sentients is unable to reproduce.

That's because they've been sterilised by travelling through the Void, not an innate trait of the species.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

On 2020-02-05 at 3:02 PM, General-Pacman said:

Sentients werent naturally unable to reproduce. It was the void jump from Tau what made them sterile, but they were created with the ability to breed (which is mentioned by Ballas himself in one of the Vitruvian entries, during The Sacrifice). So they still qualify as living beings.

"Life" isn't sufficiently defined by modern science, nor are "consciousness" and "intelligence". Buuuut I don't want to open that can of worms.

The old Synthesis entries describe the material they're made from. It's a form of intelligent matter. Whether it's "alive" is not explicitly stated, but the matter itself is called the Archimedian's "creation". Regardless, it's clear they are a completely unique lifeform. They are described to have the ability to self-replicate, even from parts traumatically separated from the main body. Check the Synthesis entry on the wiki if you're interested. It's the Detron Crewman entry.

My interpretation is that they undergo a form of mitosis to expand their "bodies", create satellite bodies, heal, and reproduce. If so, "sterile" and "womb" are being used figuratively by Hunhow, Natah, and Ballas. The void disrupts their ability to grow, heal, and spawn new independent lifeforms. For them, this concept must be deeply disturbing, similar to our concept of undeath. Their tone seems to suggest this change is permanent.

I wonder how Spacegran views her daughter, after her deformity. They are fascinating as a species. Many abstract concepts don't apply to them. When you consider what they are, their xenophobia makes a bit more sense.

More recent lore describes them as having a core, "oro", which is dropped when a Conculyst/Battlyst is destroyed. If it's not collected, the Sentient will reform. Teshin trains Tenno to collect these in Conclave, in preparation for full-scale war.

The one thing about Sentients that makes no sense to me is vomvalysts. Why are they ghosts? The codex entry doesn't help. They have no oro, but can heal themselves and the Eidolons... which makes no sense, because either they or the Eidolons that spawned them must have traversed the void. As far as I'm aware, no existing lore can explain them. I'm not prepared to say a retcon is called for, but DE will need to beat their brains pretty hard to fill that hole.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

On 2020-02-05 at 8:26 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Eidolons are simply eidolons, it is in their name what they are, it should not be confused and made synonymous with sentient. We also dont know if it is a natural thing for the bigger sentients to go "undead" or if it is just a mixture of how and where the sentient died i.e at the hands of a massive bomb delivered by Gara (and made by the unum iirc) on earth.

I don't think it is something that happens naturally. Isn't Hunhow's body laying on Uranus? Why are there no eidolons there?

 

On 2020-02-05 at 3:23 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

She’s a blood mage.

This is definitely more what Garuda is. She uses blood purely as a power source, not for sustenance.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 hours ago, (XB1)Rez090 said:

I don't think it is something that happens naturally. Isn't Hunhow's body laying on Uranus? Why are there no eidolons there?

 

This is definitely more what Garuda is. She uses blood purely as a power source, not for sustenance.

Because the Teralysts were sent to attack Unum tower and were defeated by Gara. Also probably because Eidolon Sentients weren’t even thought about in 2015. There are Vombulysts in the sentient ship tho.

[TearsOfTomorrow]

The issue with Revenant, in terms of game design (you know, my job), is the "lower common denominator" mentality. Like, the devs started working on a 'frame with a very specific theme: a ravenous undead spirit, a revenant if you will, corrupted and twisted by the Eidolon's desire to be whole again. But then they realized such a concept wasn't going to resonate with the portion of players who don't follow the lore and are just here to shoot things, because the sad truth is, internal consistency and self-reference doesn't always sell.

But you know what does sell? Pop culture references. So let's make Revenant a vampire! Yeah, the result was kind of a mess, and is not really integrated all that well with his lore. It's a bit of an identity crisis.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Because the Teralysts were sent to attack Unum tower and were defeated by Gara. Also probably because Eidolon Sentients weren’t even thought about in 2015. There are Vombulysts in the sentient ship tho.

Please get the story straight.

The Terralyst did not go to attack the Unum and end up getting killed by Gara. The initial sentient, the one you see scattered all over earth went to attack the Unum. That is the sentient that Gara blew to pieces, the sentient that all the eidolons come from. The names of the specific eidolons are names given to them by the inhabitants of cetus aswell as the Unum and now the tenno. TGH came to be after the death of that sentient. Revenant then showed up to cut them down night after night and in the end sacrificing himself to stop them from coming, which lasted until the grineer started digging around.

The likely reason why there are floating heads on the plains and inside the sentient ship is probably because all massive sentients have vombalysts inside them and the sentient ship is just another massive sentient.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

-snip-

You can find all of that but you can’t find evidence to justify a vampire theme. And yet you’re still pushing that it makes sense. Why are you even still here?

[(PSN)grayscale358]

On 2020-02-06 at 7:23 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

She’s a blood mage.

Simple Revenant rework

1. Summon vombulysts to help you in battle and provide a variety of utility uses to yourself and squadmates.

2. Charge up a shield like the Eidolons that has its own innate DR as well as having adaptation.

3. Replace Reave with literally anything else that the Sentients do.

4. Danse Macabre can stay. Eidolons shoot lasers and it has an offensive version of the sentient damage adaptation.

Passive: literally anything that’s not what it is right now.

DE can add in the missing parts and think up all the synergies. It’s not that hard when you have someone that isn’t creatively inept making a Warframe.

None of those are any good. Seriously.

And how would these abilities make sense when Revenant Prime releases? They aren't going to redesign a frames kit, for a prime. Nidus Prime is still going to be infested. Valkytr Prime was still a rage filled berserker.

EIDOLONS DID NOT EXIST WHEN WARFRAMES WERE BEING DESIGNED.

REVENANT HAS DECENT SYNERGY. YOU JUST REFUSE TO SEE IT. Seriously Gears, you aren't stupid. You refuse to see how the Thralls are any good, you refuse to see how Mesmer Skin is good, all you bloody want in Revenant is Danse, which is literally his worst ability synergy wise. It is the only thing that doesn't mesh with his kit, as YOU have pointed out before.

[(PSN)grayscale358]

4 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Because the Teralysts were sent to attack Unum tower and were defeated by Gara. Also probably because Eidolon Sentients weren’t even thought about in 2015. There are Vombulysts in the sentient ship tho.

The Teralysts were not sent. It was one Sentient, that Gara made explode. Terry, Gary, and the Ropalolyst are the shattered bits and pieces of big Bob the sentient, who was attacking the Unum to get kuva, so it could regain its strength, and reproduce.

And with the sentient ship, think of the Vomvalysts as bloodcells in massive Sentients, like Bob, and the ship, lets call it... Larry You cut something, bloodcells go everywhere (Vomvalysts on the Plains), you go inside a creature, there's gonna be bloodcells (Vomvalysts on the ship). Larry, and Bob, are/were both massive Sentients. Big sentients, big bloodcells/antibodies. The Vomvalysts defend their host, or what remains of them, like white blood cells.

Edited February 7, 2020 by (PS4)reidy35
Grammar

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

Reaves behind you "Nothing personal, kiddo" 

Edited February 7, 2020 by (XB1)aMichealMeyers

[(XBOX)Mechanized Mind]

Something kind of interesting is that the Vomvalysts on the sentient ship (which was referred to as the "Sentient Maw" on the dev's million subscriber celebration stream), is that they only appear from these strange cocoon/egg like structures.  They don't spawn like normal enemies and wont show as an enemy on our radar until they acutally exit the structure.  These Vomvalysts are also much more resilient than the ones on the plains which could just be chocked up to them appearing in higher level missions, but since there is a distinction between "Vomvalyst" and "Eidolon Vomvalyst" I like to think they are typically supposed to be much stronger than what we see on Earth.  

Edited February 7, 2020 by (XB1)Mechanized Mind

[Corvid]

2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You can find all of that but you can’t find evidence to justify a vampire theme. And yet you’re still pushing that it makes sense. Why are you even still here?

They already did. Stubbornness is not a refutation.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, (PS4)reidy35 said:

None of those are any good. Seriously.

And how would these abilities make sense when Revenant Prime releases? They aren't going to redesign a frames kit, for a prime. Nidus Prime is still going to be infested. Valkytr Prime was still a rage filled berserker.

EIDOLONS DID NOT EXIST WHEN WARFRAMES WERE BEING DESIGNED.

REVENANT HAS DECENT SYNERGY. YOU JUST REFUSE TO SEE IT. Seriously Gears, you aren't stupid. You refuse to see how the Thralls are any good, you refuse to see how Mesmer Skin is good, all you bloody want in Revenant is Danse, which is literally his worst ability synergy wise. It is the only thing that doesn't mesh with his kit, as YOU have pointed out before.

You only think they’re bad since they’re coming from me. If Ervin suggested them you’d probably slobber all over them saying they’re the greatest abilities ever devised by a single human being.

How does Valkyrs abilities make sense on Valkyr prime? They don’t. Because Valkyr wasn’t a rage filled berserker until the corpus, who existed after the Warframes were originally created.

it genuinely doesn’t matter that the Eidolons showed up after Revenants original design was created. Because that original designed was corrupted and reforged by them into an Eidolon frame.

Relying on synergy to carry your abilities isn’t decent synergy. Each ability should be able to stand on its own and the synergies provide an additional benefit. Needing synergies for his abilities to even has significant functions is bad design.

Thralls can’t be good if they die before being used. 100% DR is redundant if it’s attached to a garbage charges mechanic. I fail to see how Danse having poor synergy with his other abilities makes it a bad ability despite the fact that it performs perfectly well on its own.

 

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You can find all of that but you can’t find evidence to justify a vampire theme. And yet you’re still pushing that it makes sense. Why are you even still here?

Orokin design, that is all the evidence needed since we dont know of any other method when it comes to creating OG frames. I mean in the story around Revenant and his time on earth, there is zero indication of anything changing him. All he did was chop down eidolons, sacrifice himself to keep them locked away aswell as harnessing their energy. If he would have been corrupted and changed (no idea where people even get that idea from since it is mentioned in zero places) then the eidolons wouldnt have been locked away for all those years since he wouldnt be there as a counter anchor, instead he would have been the anchor that the eidolons tried to turn him into in order to access the plains.

I'm also not sure what the vampire theme discussion has to do with me pointing out to you that you got the story about the plains, the Unum and the sentients wrong.

edit: Regarding your post above. Valkyr was always a rage based frame. Rage =/= insanity/madness, which is exactly what the corpus drove her to. They didnt implement anything to her, she already had the claws and hysteria. What they did to her was rip the skin from her and place it on Zanuka, then they discarded the rest. They drove the specific Gersemi Valkyr insane, that does not change the tenno blueprint we use to build it.

Edited February 7, 2020 by SneakyErvin

[nslay]

Gears, I've noted it before, but Vomvalysts are really bad... really really bad. When I first got Mote back in those early days, I used to hammer the Vomvalysts from their back and they didn't even turn around. They are seriously stupid enemies. A Thrall Heavy Gunner or Nox is better than any number of Vomvalysts. The other sentients are also better than Vomvalysts. Vomvalysts are bottom-of-the-barrel sentient enemies. They suck.

If you really want Revenant to command Eidolons, it really should be a mini version of a Teralyst. Anything less just won't cut it. But now you've removed Revenant's really cool ability to do scalable damage... for pets which are currently universally stupid in AI (Vomvalysts are especially stupid)!

Inb4 other players killing Thralls complaint ... Ah, but you won't need those Vomvalysts (god forbid) or mini Teralyst if enemies are that easy either. Just kill the enemies. Don't need no stinking Sentient pets for that.

On that note, you should not want Revenant to have pet abilities (like summoning Vomvalysts) because pets are CC and CC is worthless (Gears et. al. 2019).

[--PV--Puppet]

There is no point in arguing with Gears, he has his vision that is 100% correct and sacred. It's blasphemy to try and disprove him.