opticor vs opticor vandal.

[Luciole77]

Would this weapon be a downgrade from the original? Why do I still prefer normal? I can point out several reasons .... better sound of fire, better damage and although the vandal has a higher rate of fire it is still lower than traditional ... much lower! For me it was the variant that most disappointed me. After a few years without playing with her I decided to try again ... I could see that the variant is ridiculously inferior to the traditional in both the pleasure of playing and the damage. I sincerely hope that they will not do it with other weapons .... the opticor deserved to be treated with more affection!

[Kylo.]

I, on the other hand, despise the Opticor for all it's worth and like the Opticor Vandal.

[TheGrimCorsair]

The Vandal variant should average out to more DPS than classic and is a generally much better rounded weapon and more suitable to the combat we engage in on the regular.

As usual, YMMV on which you prefer as both will get the job done fine, especially when you put a damage amp or 5 behind them.

[Luciole77]

4 minutes ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

The Vandal variant should average out to more DPS than classic and is a generally much better rounded weapon and more suitable to the combat we engage in on the regular.

As usual, YMMV on which you prefer as both will get the job done fine, especially when you put a damage amp or 5 behind them.

The rate of fire is not necessarily better on a weapon ... as it is a "cannon" that would prefer the vandal to be slower but to penetrate a larger line of enemies. The vandal opticor for me is another weapon .... it is far from being a good or average weapon.

It was a totally uncharacterized weapon from the original ... a pity they did with it.

[rapt0rman]

The Opticor did not under any circumstances need an upgrade, so it got a sidegrade. I don't despise the Opticor or anything, but I perfer the Vandal.

8 minutes ago, Luciole77 said:

it is far from being a good or average weapon.

Simply not true at all.

[Tiltskillet]

I don't care for the Opticor, but I can definitely understand  arguments from people who love it and dislike the Vandal's change in character. Hopefully some day they get a prisma or other advanced version that's more to their tastes.

There's no way though that DE is going to make the Vandal fill that itch at this point.  It's a good weapon in its own right, and well-established now, that some amount of people prefer to the original.

[RamonLLLL]

Vehemently disagree. Vandal may not be 1shot, but it's much more comfortable to use because of it's higher DPS, not to mention higher crit/status chance and reload times

[nooneyouknow13]

Yeah, no, the Opticor Vandal is my favorite rifle. By far.

The base average damage per shot of the opticor is 1300 unmodded. The vandal is 553.6. That's 42.6% of the damage, for 30% of the charge time. Once you add Serration, Point Strike and Vital Sense it becomes 8612.5 vs 4061.92. 47.1% of the dps for 30% of the charge time. It's a pretty clear upgrade in dps, and that's before factoring the 60% larger magazine. Above numbers do not count the magnetic explosion. If you add that into the equation as well, the Opticor would be 12057.5 vs 6,092.88, which brings the vandal up to 50.5% of the base variant. This is because the explosion on the base is only worth 40% of of the initial hit, while the explosion on the Vandal is worth 50%.

So, while the Vandal is unquestionably a dps upgrade, you posit that it's meant to be a one shot weapon. Well, in my experience, I one shot most grineer units with the Vandal up to around level 120. And nothing other than a Nox or a boss really takes more than a second shot, which means the Vandal is still killing faster than the base, even if it takes a second trigger pull.

But wait, there's more - in addition to the above, the Opticor Vandal is a recurring event award that can be obtained as low as MR 0. While the base Opticor can't be obtained until MR 14 because it's no sold in any bundle to allow you to bypass the MR requirement.

If you really do prefer the original, because big numbers are quite fun, keep using the original. Especially since they no longer share riven dispos.

[TeCoolTenno]

I don't think opticor vandal is bad, but just a weird disappointment in that it sort of makes Ferrox prime/vandal/corpus-kuva (lol) even more unlikely than it already is, and makes a second variant of Opticor that's a straight upgrade from the slow-oneshot less likely as well

 

 

That being said, If Opticor Vandal was a separate Huge-Laser-Weapon-3, it'd be loved a looot more.

 

I like the weapon, but I'm also crossing my fingers that DE isn't like, "Okay, we gave opticor players love, now let's go make a tigris wraith"

[IceColdHawk]

You misspelled Ferrox Vandal. It's a whole different weapon and nowhere comparable to the base opticor. The one is a quick blaster and the other is a BFG. 

[Luciole77]

I prefer the original opticor....make me feels good when shooting and has better damage.

I really hope you guys from DE make another one opticor.🙄

[DarkRuler2500]

I would prefer a Lanka or Ferrox variant before giving Opticor another thing.

And no, i like the Original more too.

[Sevek7]

Opticor Vandal is certainly more effective in the majority of cases due to the horde nature of the game.

But I agree, the original opticor just feels so much better 🙂 

12 minutes ago, DarkRuler2500 said:

I would prefer a Lanka or Ferrox variant

Strong agreement with this too! Would love Lanka and Ferrox to get a lich or vandal variant!

[Xardis]

I dont think Lanka deserves a variant, I think it deserves a remodel first, maybe alongside a variant. Ferrox variant would be nice, and I would love if it would have the Javlok trigger mechanism, there is no real point in hold to charge with such a fast reload speed and the option to only fire on full charge, I think its there only coz of Opticor.

[Redpaws]

Opticor Vandal is objectively better.

...But it does lose the feel of a BFG. Though, what I'd like to see... Imagine an Opticor with a secondary beam mode (as in, like Glaxion or Gaze). Just as fat as the current beam, but a constant beam instead, and about 100+m range. Runs the mag dry fast, so it's more for quick sweeps rather than consistent damage, and to differ it from other beam weapons. Big damage focused blasts for single targets, sweeping deathbeam for crowds. Think... The Ambula beam sweep.

[TheMostFrench]

On 2020-06-28 at 6:30 AM, Redpaws said:

Opticor Vandal is objectively better.

...But it does lose the feel of a BFG. Though, what I'd like to see... Imagine an Opticor with a secondary beam mode (as in, like Glaxion or Gaze). Just as fat as the current beam, but a constant beam instead, and about 100+m range. Runs the mag dry fast, so it's more for quick sweeps rather than consistent damage, and to differ it from other beam weapons. Big damage focused blasts for single targets, sweeping deathbeam for crowds. Think... The Ambula beam sweep.

This sounds awesome pretty awesome, though Opticor can take care of crowds pretty well if they're nicely lined up.

Something like the Unreal Tournament Shock Rifle could be cool. For anyone who doesn't know, alt fire is a condensed ball of energy, and shooting it with primary fire makes it explode.

 

[taiiat]

i usually prefer Weapons that strike a middleground so i like Vandal better, in addition to that it's technically just better at everything.

[master_of_destiny]

On 2020-06-27 at 6:30 PM, Redpaws said:

Opticor Vandal is objectively better.

...But it does lose the feel of a BFG. Though, what I'd like to see... Imagine an Opticor with a secondary beam mode (as in, like Glaxion or Gaze). Just as fat as the current beam, but a constant beam instead, and about 100+m range. Runs the mag dry fast, so it's more for quick sweeps rather than consistent damage, and to differ it from other beam weapons. Big damage focused blasts for single targets, sweeping deathbeam for crowds. Think... The Ambula beam sweep.

No.  It is at best a side-grade to the original.  Objective number put the damage output on par with the original unless you've got a lot invested.  Let's pare this down.

 

You get:

More ammo - no influence

More Crit - 4%, so it's possible to actually get 100% with a Riven...we'll get back to this, but the important but is crit increases balance lower damage.

More crit damage - 2.5 to 2.6....yeah

40% damage with 30% of the charge time. 

More status - useless on a gun designed to kill in one shot 

 

Let's figure out why it's a side grade.  The extra crit is nice...but the vandal has a lower riven disposition.  Not great, and 0.1 extra damage is a statistical rounding error.  So the critical chance and critical damage are only a very minor improvement.

What about the charge and damage?  Well, here's the part where mods come in.  If you get 60% faster charge the Opticor has it impact 2 seconds versus 0.6.  That means it's about 3x more effective.  Why does this matter?  The Opticor can be fired at 50% charge for 50% damage.  That means when you get down to it a 50% blast of the original is functionally very little additional time over the full charge of the Opticor Vandal, and delivers damage at 125% of the Vandal's blast.  

 

So you don't get more damage, the critical increase is minor, and the status is nothing to write home about.  Why care about the Opticor Vandal?  Well, I care because I line up headshots, and have a good riven.  As such I'm looking at 100% critical chance no matter the frame.  I come in under this with the Opticor, but when you remove the riven from the mix it's pretty much a question of how much control you have.  The idiot who presses down until there's an earth shattering kaboom would be better with the Vandal, while the idiot using some control and willing to be doing less than the maximum damage can get away with the Opticor with no tangible influence on output.  The issue is most people aren't that controlled, so favor the Vandal.  This idiot would much prefer continuing to use the standard version, assuming that the magnetic blast worked.

 

 

When I saw the stats I hated the Vandal.  It shouldn't have been the Opticor.  DE decided to keep the original without rework, because a BFG concept is pretty trash in this game.  The one word answer to something that melts enemies is the Nullifier bubble, and now we have shield gating shenanigans to worry about.  Unfortunately, DE decided to not listen to players again, and release a gun that is convenience over a Vandal upgrade. 

I'd have guessed that we could have the Vandal with a 1.6 second charge at 100% of the damage and the minor upgrades.  I'd have guessed that they'd have gone nuts and provided a huge boost to crit or status without changing anything.  Instead we got a much weaker but faster firing weapon that's about as much laser cannon as the Lex is a modern day 50 calibur handgun.  That is to say, Opticor in name only.  While a side grade on performance, it forgets the promise of being awesome.  As such you may subjectively prefer the Vandal, but objectively the performance is only better with a good riven and huge investment of forma.

 

 

 

 

Regarding having more high damage output weapons...sigh.  Snipers don't have a lot to offer as lining up headshots during a horde shooter is stupid.  The Kuva Ogris is a good rocket launcher, but the enemy AI has the tendency to close distances and spawn too close to make use of it.  The Lenz and Bramma are good, even if they now have issues with performing at higher levels.  I just think that DE is focusing on faster pew-pew, and the Nullifiers and shield gating prove this.  They don't design for high damage and low fire rate.  Heck, before Eidolons snipers were largely a bad choice, and even now they're a niche weapon.  

Also regarding the Opticor...I think DE doesn't know how it should work.  As an experiment, go battle the Ropalolyst.  Try to shoot the two things on its back, and you'll get staggers constantly no matter how far away.  It was the same with the Condrix.  It's almost like they have gigantic hit boxes, which makes them do self staggers constantly.  Now go to any level, and walk up to a wall.  Shoot it at full charge, and keep walking back until there's no more stagger.  That requires a couple of meters, and the staggers disappear.  Now go into a battle against the glass enemies.  Shoot any of the glass, and none of the other points are broken.  Despite this, I can do a melee slam and shatter all of them at once.  So, what exactly is supposed to be happening?  

[master_of_destiny]

This boggles my mind.  The Vandal is not a clear upgrade, it's a fundamentally different weapon.  

 

40% damage at 30% charge time.  This means a charge of 0.6 versus 2.0.  

The change to critical chance is 4% and 0.1 for critical damage multiplier.  The practical upshot is that a decent riven can give you 100% critical chance without requiring an outside buff.  Let's really dig into this tough, and debunk the theory that this is a clear upgrade.

 

 

Can you fire the Opticor before 2.0 seconds?  Yes.  50% charge=50% damage.  Does a percentage fire rate influence the Opticor more than the vandal?  Absolutely.  60% of 2.0 is about three times larger than 60% of 0.6.  This means an Opticor fired at 50% charge will do 125% of the damage of an Opticor Vandal at full charge, and modded to include charge decrease you'll functionally have very little difference in the charge times.

The critical chance and critical damage are a point of discussion, but realistically speaking they're so minor as to be the only reason that the Vandal exists.  The status chance is a joke, because when you charge a weapon in a horde shooter it better be capable of killing a target.  If they die outright the ability to apply a status is useless, and especially so now that statuses are required to stack for their effects to be substantial.

 

The Opticor Vandal is not an upgraded Opticor.  To the point, the Braton, Braton Vandal, Braton Prime, and MK-1 Braton are all functionally the same weapon, but the Opticor and Opticor Vandal are like the Braton series versus the Burston.  They are assault rifles, but are called something different because they function radically different.  I can appreciate why both exist, but the Opticor Vandal was a disappointment.  Regarding how the gun has fared recently, the magnetic detonation seems to be inconsistent, the inclusion of shield gating makes large instance damage but low fire rate weapons ineffective against enemies, and the insane forma investment this weapon requires makes for a hard sell.

 

I liked the Opticor enough to forma two versions (one with a polarity for cold damage and one without).  Despite this, I don't intend to do the same for the Vandal.  It's a better weapon for the horde shooter nature of the game, with less required skill, but despite this it's hard to justify any similarly structured and broken weapons.  

[Twilight-Knight]

I was looking for some of corpus's weapon will be maed to vandal. But when I see vandal opticor, I don't want anymore expectation.

Vandal Opticor have a damage that so small with the bad side of it's original radial magnetic effect that I declined the weapon as soon as I notice it. I mean at least made it like 4 shots with type fast fire mode if you don't intent to make it as super discharge cannon. And the initial magnetic aoe is a bust to the weapon, make it's damage suck with enemies can only be damage with weaknesses.

[UUDDLRLRBA_START]

On 2020-07-03 at 9:55 PM, master_of_destiny said:

it's a side grade

I'd like an Opticor that fires like a Supra / Soma.

[master_of_destiny]

4 hours ago, UUDDLRLRBA_START said:

I'd like an Opticor that fires like a Supra / Soma.

One already exists.  The catch is the ammo pool.

Speed Trigger+Primed Shred+Vile Acceleration on the Opticor Vandal functionally allows a near instant charge.  If you can add on a riven you'll charge faster than most can click the button and release it.

 

This said, you give up 15% damage, 3-4 mod slots, and that 8 round magazine will mean constant reloading.  You can expend further mod capacity to increase magazine size, but you get back to the whole reload animation....and even with that modded for it's long.  So, 5-6 of your mod slots are accounted for, you get a pinpoint accurate rapid fire weapon, and still have to deal with an ammo pool that is miniscule.  This is the beauty of the current mod system.  

 

Regarding a weapon that is actually good that does this...I'd have to ask about the balance.  The Supra balances itself by having a small amount of damage and poor accuracy.  It therefore requires more shots on target, and cannot be leveraged at any great range.  Alternatively, you have things like the Acceltra with ammo reserve issues, that fire fast and pack a huge punch with minimal accuracy loss.  Finally, you've got stuff like the Stahlta.  It's pretty good at faster firing low damage projectiles, but its secondary allows a charged explosive round at a huge ammo cost. 

 

DE really did a good job with the basic concept of the mod system.  The problem is that they tied damage directly into it, so you functionally have to include stuff like base damage and multishot.  Between that and stuff like Hunter's Munitions, there's very little opportunity to mod things to be nutty without giving up their ability to actually do damage. 

[UUDDLRLRBA_START]

On 2020-07-11 at 6:06 AM, master_of_destiny said:

I'd have to ask about the balance

I brainstorm weapons of war for other interests.

"Fairplay" isn't something I mull about when concocting an implement of destruction.

When there is a kitgun chamber that does hitscan + high damage, I'll think about going back to them. Right now, the Primary "Kitguns" are LEL for me.

I may make a Tombfinger primary, but I already have a secondary.

[master_of_destiny]

On 2020-07-25 at 11:06 AM, UUDDLRLRBA_START said:

I brainstorm weapons of war for other interests.

"Fairplay" isn't something I mull about when concocting an implement of destruction.

When there is a kitgun chamber that does hitscan + high damage, I'll think about going back to them. Right now, the Primary "Kitguns" are LEL for me.

I may make a Tombfinger primary, but I already have a secondary.

....

 

Then you don't get it.

 

Let's frame this with another weapon, the Kuva Bramma.  Excellent damage, large AoE, no self damage, and no real need to aim.  Said weapon was released, was great, never got good rivens because they weren't needed....then ate a substantial nerf.

That not enough for you?  Catchmoon secondaries.  Synoid Gammacor.  Arca Plasmor.  The Kohm.  I could keep going, but the point should be clear.

 

This isn't real life.  The point of the game is, according to the developers, to have multiple good options.  The Opticor is a slow high damage weapon.  The Opticor Vandal is a medium-high damage source.  The Soma series is low damage high fire rate.  Etc....etc....etc....

 

The point here is that no weapon is absolutely perfect.  An absolutely perfect weapon would have the Opticor's damage, a 33%-33%-33% spread of IPS (so you can add a mod to make it do whatever you want), the Opticor's accuracy (100), the ammo reserve of the Supra (read: huge), critical chance like the Dread, critical damage like the Nukor, status chance of the Miter (50%), the fire rate of the Soma, have innate ammo mutation, fire multiple projectiles to be a status behemoth, and reload faster than the Shedu (0.25 seconds).  If said gun existed, it would be the only choice.  

 

If you somehow missed out on all of this when looking at the hundreds of weapons...I don't believe we need to talk.  You either are deep into the trolling, don't understand power creep and balancing, or simply don't see why there's no weapon as I described above.  If you want the cherry on that sunday of crazy, explain to me why a laser beam cannon does less damage than a metal stick, or a rocket launcher, or really any gun is outclassed by virtually any melee weapon.  

 

-Edit-

Let me make a joke to lighten the mood.  Go watch the 2000's version of the Punisher, with Thomas Jane as Frank Castle.  There's a point where he's crawling out from a flipped car, and pulls a knife.  The assassin looks down on Castle, and states something to the effect of "Boy, you are stupid.  Bringing a knife to a gun fight ....(wet gurgling noises as a spring loaded blade from the knife lodges into his throat)..."

That's common wisdom.  Right now, Warframe is literally that joke.  The difference is that our enemies seem to be better at causing status (slash and puncture), can effectively create auras that damage through walls but our powers have been largely stripped of that, and even middle tier chunks of metal will out damage the best guns.  It's almost like somebody at DE saw Dune, and figured that the same logic would apply.  

 

Yes, movie heavy stuff here.  It's easier to compare than to genuinely dissect things.  My point is that DE never gets balance.  They're a terrible pendulum, that swings radically from left to right and rarely stops on a good balance.  At one point it was primary weapons, the next it was secondaries, and now it's melee that outstrips other damage sources.  If they last another few years it'll probably be primaries again.  I hope that when that happens, they don't misbalance and nerf the Opticor into the ground.  This means it has to be balanced, so it doesn't become meta and then unusable given hard nerfs.

[UUDDLRLRBA_START]

 

On 2020-07-25 at 7:53 PM, master_of_destiny said:

Then you don't get it.

I get it. Warframe is for little kids.

On 2020-07-25 at 7:53 PM, master_of_destiny said:

Yes, movie heavy stuff here.

  Well, I deal with bad actors in real life - I'm always the one to walk away, so I'm good.

We're done here.

Don't enjoy the power-creep that's sure to come - I will.