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Maybe it is time to rebalance things by put diminishing returns on mod stacking


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Yes, I guess a lot of people will be angry about it, but one of the main complaints is power creep and the stacking of specific mods is the main source of creep. Saryns with multiple range mods that cover most of the visible area and there are more examples.

The issue is that at some point with something like 300% range or 300% power strength some game mechanics will break. That will always happen unless the creep is reigned in somewhat. That happened to other games as well with Eve Online stacking damage mods until battleships could instantly melt anything (long ago), or with nano (speed) mods stacking to the point where the hit and damage calculations went bonkers and the ships became practically immune to damage. The solution to stacking damage or speed mods was always to put in diminishing returns. I am not saying there should be no benefit for exampe in putting Stretch + Overextended together but the percentages should be lowered by a fair amount and the benefit for adding a third range mod for example should be further reduced. Same with damage or duration.

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3 minutes ago, Prexades said:

The issue is that

some people don't get the multiplayer aspect and want to be "top player" at all costs with any Loadout

Nice try, but another "please nerf, others are better than and me and I don't understand this game good enough to compete" thread

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5 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

some people don't get the multiplayer aspect and want to be "top player" at all costs with any Loadout

Nice try, but another "please nerf, others are better than and me and I don't understand this game good enough to compete" thread

That's something I don't get, there are people better than me for whatever reason and to want to nerf the game instead of workinging hard to get better.

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this naturally already exists in all games which has you making choices - opportunity cost gives things diminishing returns. even despite things being Linear mathematically, in use they have diminishing returns because the more of __ you're adding, the less of anything else you can have.

if that isn't working, then the problem is that it isn't working. for a few different reasons, the biggest ones being:

  • Abilities often literally being designed to not have to deal with opportunity cost, by not scaling with certain Mod Types at all
  • or Abilities scaling with certain Mod Types in ways which are not relevant in actual Gameplay

in either of these common cases, there simply is not opportunity cost in the first place, thusly breaking the entire system.

 

if an Ability scales with... Range, but doesn't really scale with Strength in a meaningful way, or doesn't scale with Duration at all - then there is no choice to make of whether to have as much Range as you can or not, because the game didn't ask you to make a decision and choose whether that's what you want to do or not.

which is pretty ridiculous, when this is true in much of the game. we have Mods and other slottable things purpose built to be opportunity cost balancing, and yet most of the time we simply do not have any of that opportunity cost.

 

 

that being said, even so with Mods we do have diminishing returns in a way even so, by virtue that the Mods you can put on to increase Strength, Range, or Duration - all have different values. you'll ofcourse use the one that offers you the most with the least sacrifice first, but after that you can't just add another of that, you have to pick one of the less effective choices since those are left.
if you add Overextended to a Warframe that doesn't have an opportunity cost for Strength, if you want more your choices are Stretch, Augur Reach, and Cunning Drift. each of these are progressively weaker.

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16 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

another "please nerf, others are better than and me and I don't understand this game good enough to compete" thread

This is predicated on the assumption that the OP can't make this build. I mean, obviously they don't have this ability, otherwise they'd be defending it, right? /s

Let's look at this from another angle:

  • I have the tools to make a max-range Saryn nuke build, but
  • I don't want to play a max-range nuke Saryn because
    • its gameplay just amounts to spamming two buttons and
    • it makes the game way too easy. However,
  • the game overtly rewards players for using setups like this, so
  • players feel pressure to use these nuke builds, even if they don't find them enjoyable.

Yes, players don't have to cave to that pressure, make your own fun, all that jazz. But I think players wanting to see a toning down of the setups that make this game painfully easy shouldn't be dismissed as jealousy.

I don't personally agree with OP's suggestion, diminishing returns on mods, since this would have an adverse effect on making very out-there builds that really are just for fun and aren't trivializing missions. However, I think I get the issue the OP is trying to address: high-range damage nuke builds suck the action and engagement out of this game, and that needs to be addressed.

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1 hour ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

some people don't get the multiplayer aspect and want to be "top player" at all costs with any Loadout

Nice try, but another "please nerf, others are better than and me and I don't understand this game good enough to compete" thread

It's not about competition, it's about the game not devolving into a walking simulator because one player wants to wave their e-peen around by 1shotting rooms of enemies.

I don't play the game to just go from start to extraction, but this is what I've been reduced to doing when someone joins a mission playing Saryn or Mesa or other frames that just have high damage, high range AoE abilities.

Also, it devalues other frames. Why bother playing a tank like Rhino or Revenant when you can just nuke the map? Why bother bringing Trinity to heal when Saryn can just make all threats disappear? Why bother playing a CC frame like Nyx when the best form of CC is making enemies vanish in a puff of affinity? I'd just be better off playing a nuke frame, mashing one ability, and moving towards extraction. The others are worthless. If they don't nuke, there's no reason you should play them.

This is your logic. Like, how does any non-nuke frame "compete" with a nuke frame without deliberately sabotaging them (ex. Putting Frost domes down in front of Mesa to block their LoS or playing max range Nyx with Chaos augment in a defense to keep enemies out of Saryn's ability range) or if they're new and don't know how to build the frame right?

Edited by Pizzarugi
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Falsehood, power creep isn't a main complaint, your the only one mentioning it on the first page, maybe the first three.

There already is diminishing returns, you have to place less and less effective mods if you want to stack a specific trait, making it easier to get a strong balance of variety, than it is to reach the apex of one trait. My full armor strip Frost would love to have max range, duration and efficiency too, instead it has to spend several slots with less and less strength per slot to reach complete armor removal, and it has to include reduced efficiency, forcing a trade off. 

In fact, most focused builds require corrupted mods, trading one quality for another. 

So your preference is nonsense, and demonstrates an ignorance of the game and what is best for it. Next time you try to qualify a balance issue, don't reference a PvP strategy game that diametrically differs from a PvE hoard shooter. 

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Umm , it already exists in multiple ways,

Firstly there are only so many mods that exist that boost a certain aspect.

Stacking the same thing costs mod space that could be used for other stats - forma can only take you so far,

So you might have max strength on an ability but your ability to sustain it is limited,

Or you might be able to spam abilities but their effects are limited.

Min Maxing as the name implies allows you to reach max of one thing by minimizing something else.

There is an inherent Ceiling to everything (until they introduce more mods)

 

It is their interaction with different or very specific mechanics in the game that cause the results to be bonkers if you had made a point of any specfic interaction it can always be balanced, but all mods changed completely would not help.

 

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2 hours ago, Prexades said:

Yes, I guess a lot of people will be angry about it, but one of the main complaints is power creep and the stacking of specific mods is the main source of creep. Saryns with multiple range mods that cover most of the visible area and there are more examples.

The issue is that at some point with something like 300% range or 300% power strength some game mechanics will break. That will always happen unless the creep is reigned in somewhat. That happened to other games as well with Eve Online stacking damage mods until battleships could instantly melt anything (long ago), or with nano (speed) mods stacking to the point where the hit and damage calculations went bonkers and the ships became practically immune to damage. The solution to stacking damage or speed mods was always to put in diminishing returns. I am not saying there should be no benefit for exampe in putting Stretch + Overextended together but the percentages should be lowered by a fair amount and the benefit for adding a third range mod for example should be further reduced. Same with damage or duration.

no.

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Well, before adding diminishing returns they could start with things that look linear but in reality aren't.

For example, Power Efficiency gets better the more you stack it up to the cap. You need +50% to halve the costs, but then only +25% to halve them again.

Power Range is similar. Yes, the range increase is linear, but what matters is the area you cover (or even the volume, but let's argue we're mostly facing enemies in a "flat space"). And as we know, a circle's area has a quadratic relationship to its radius: π r2

 

Edit: I should probably add that this particular Power Range problem only exists for AoE abilities, and not if they're directed or single target.

Edited by Kontrollo
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Maybe we shouldn't.

If most of your build is health mods and adaptation you shouldn't be able to compete with that 300hp khora in damage.

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5 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

It's not about competition, it's about the game not devolving into a walking simulator because one player wants to wave their e-peen around by 1shotting rooms of enemies.

Like, how does any non-nuke frame "compete" with a nuke frame without deliberately sabotaging them (ex. Putting Frost domes down in front of Mesa to block their LoS or playing max range Nyx with Chaos augment in a defense to keep enemies out of Saryn's ability range) or if they're new and don't know how to build the frame right?

This is a direct contradiction. The goal of a COOPERATIVE OPERATION (co-op) style gameplay is for the TEAM to achieve the objectives. If you don't want that, play solo.

 

Are enemies dying? Are you winning the mission? Did you get the rewards? I especially am baffled at people who get salty in ESO when the entire concept is based around EFFICIENCY!

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Before even thinking about diminishing return they'd need to rework all skills to scale with all stats so people actually have equal options of stat distribution across all frames. Preferably they should also add adjustable stat scaling for each individual skill, so you can for instant invest in high range on Frost without getting an absurdly large and pointless globe.

There are alot of other frames that have disadvantages on certain skills by stacking a stat to benefit some other. Baruuk for instance, high range makes his lull really great, but it also #*!%s over your daggers since they now get consumed by enemies further away than needed. Heck, the same dilemma is there for Protea, want range to increase uptime potential on turrets? Well here you go, take some free pointless AoE increase on your nades too so you can halt missions by stunning mobs over and over where people cant see them!

Alot of work needs to be done in other parts of the stat system.

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6 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

some people don't get the multiplayer aspect and want to be "top player" at all costs with any Loadout

Nice try, but another "please nerf, others are better than and me and I don't understand this game good enough to compete" thread

This. Don't forget the part where OP begins with the supposition that his idea of "balance" will somehow be more fun for everybody else. 

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6 hours ago, Prexades said:

Yes, I guess a lot of people will be angry about it, but one of the main complaints is power creep and the stacking of specific mods is the main source of creep.

I brought this up as a potential issue at roughly the same time corrupted mods were introduced and  continued to do so periodically for years after that... Needless to say, the idea went over like a lead balloon with players.

While the Forums love to find stuff to nerf... They tend to focus on other's stuff as opposed to their own.

That said, the game is 7+ years old now and the combination of age and more challenging content has really mitigated the need for such changes at this point.  Look at any arbitration, Steel Path, or ESO build and (even if it isn't min-maxed) it will be using some level of attribute stacking by necessity.

It's a change that won't bring back departed players, keep current players, or attract new players at this point.

 

As to issues in groups? That's an issue of scale and percentages imo...

Mobs in groups don't scale to the group so the Saryn that pops Bombards like balloons in solo does so to similar level Bombards in groups too.

That probably shouldn't be the case for our style of co-op gameplay.

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9 hours ago, Prexades said:

Yes, I guess a lot of people will be angry about it, but one of the main complaints is power creep and the stacking of specific mods is the main source of creep. Saryns with multiple range mods that cover most of the visible area and there are more examples.

The issue is that at some point with something like 300% range or 300% power strength some game mechanics will break. That will always happen unless the creep is reigned in somewhat. That happened to other games as well with Eve Online stacking damage mods until battleships could instantly melt anything (long ago), or with nano (speed) mods stacking to the point where the hit and damage calculations went bonkers and the ships became practically immune to damage. The solution to stacking damage or speed mods was always to put in diminishing returns. I am not saying there should be no benefit for exampe in putting Stretch + Overextended together but the percentages should be lowered by a fair amount and the benefit for adding a third range mod for example should be further reduced. Same with damage or duration.

Is this more of an argument to kill fun? Saryn's and Mesa's are almost useless on the Steel Path so you are really only complaining about Star Chart power. Why kill that fun?

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8 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

It's not about competition, it's about the game not devolving into a walking simulator because one player wants to wave their e-peen around by 1shotting rooms of enemies.

I don't play the game to just go from start to extraction, but this is what I've been reduced to doing when someone joins a mission playing Saryn or Mesa or other frames that just have high damage, high range AoE abilities.

Also, it devalues other frames. Why bother playing a tank like Rhino or Revenant when you can just nuke the map? Why bother bringing Trinity to heal when Saryn can just make all threats disappear? Why bother playing a CC frame like Nyx when the best form of CC is making enemies vanish in a puff of affinity? I'd just be better off playing a nuke frame, mashing one ability, and moving towards extraction. The others are worthless. If they don't nuke, there's no reason you should play them.

This is your logic. Like, how does any non-nuke frame "compete" with a nuke frame without deliberately sabotaging them (ex. Putting Frost domes down in front of Mesa to block their LoS or playing max range Nyx with Chaos augment in a defense to keep enemies out of Saryn's ability range) or if they're new and don't know how to build the frame right?

You can play the Steel Path then where Revenant shines. The nukes frames like Saryn and Mesa are terrible choices for it.

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25 minutes ago, Jaccsen said:

You can play the Steel Path then where Revenant shines. The nukes frames like Saryn and Mesa are terrible choices for it.

One more reason to leave them alone.

But somehow equipping almost any melee on Inaros and becoming an immortal meat grinder is ok.

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I don't want to nerf 'fun'. Quite the opposite. Besides diminishing returns already exists with power efficiency mods. Using Streamline and Fleeting Expertise give you 175% power efficiency, instead of 190% if the two mods would stack up like other mods. A lot of people complain about rivens, but it is the exact same issue here. Crit mods + Crit Riven and the weapons can easily reach orange and red crit territories. That is especially true with melee mods and combo multiplier mods.

Lately the forums are full of complaints. Steel Path too easy, Steel Path too hard. Rivens bad, DE terrible. I made the suggestions as a constructive suggestions, but I guess most whiners here, especially the ones who assume that I must be a bad player, are free to leave for their whine threads.

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14 minutes ago, Jaccsen said:

Steel Path

That mode is irrelevant to the discussion tbh and moreso centers on how Co-OP, as a whole, works here...

The Steel Path isn't a litmus for normal gameplay and was never meant to be.

I don't disagree with @Prexades conclusions insomuch as I think that the point where that tactic would have been useful has long since passed.

DE would be best served, at this point, in viewing Solo and Co-Op as separate beasts entirely and balancing/scaling the Mobs, not the frames, (and the rewards as well) accordingly.

 

For example: 

  • Monsters scale in MHW based on the number of people in the group. Challenge remains intact for both Solo and Group modes
  • Boss Mobs in Marvel Heroes and Named Mobs in CoH only took a % of damage from any single player per second in groups...It didn't matter what the damage value the player saw was as the mob still only took a capped percentage of damage from that attack. In the process, Bosses remained challenging and Players never felt nerfed.

 

The problem, ultimately, is that most co-op content here is designed to award efficient Kills Per Second similar to a game of digital whack-a-mole...

So the frames that are designed to "whacks those moles the fastest" will always shine—And since the "moles" are finite, the slower frames are typically left twiddling their thumbs.

 

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10 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

some people don't get the multiplayer aspect and want to be "top player" at all costs with any Loadout

Nice try, but another "please nerf, others are better than and me and I don't understand this game good enough to compete" thread

Take all my upvotes

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7 hours ago, HoustonDragon said:

This is a direct contradiction. The goal of a COOPERATIVE OPERATION (co-op) style gameplay is for the TEAM to achieve the objectives. If you don't want that, play solo.

 

Are enemies dying? Are you winning the mission? Did you get the rewards? I especially am baffled at people who get salty in ESO when the entire concept is based around EFFICIENCY!

This game is also a horde shooter, a cooperative team-based horde shooter. There is no "I" in team if you only need 1 person in it to make the hordes go away. Your argument did nothing to counter anything I've said about how nuke frames devalue everything else. Other people play this game to get in on the action, not just perform the same tired objective over and over again and then walk to extraction because someone has taken away anything that could resemble a threat or challenge.

Don't sit there and tell me rescuing the target, sabotaging reactors, or hacking spy consoles is fun after the 50th+ time in a horde shooter.

And if anybody should be playing solo, it's nuke frames. Clearly they don't need teammates, so why are they teaming up with them? I'll tell you why, and also why your "pLaY sOlO" statement is nothing more than a callous dismissal of legit criticisms of the game: Enemy spawns in solo are hot garbage. If there's anything worse than one player taking away the "horde" from a "horde shooter", it's the spawns being so weak in solo that you can barely classify it as a horde until at least 1 hour into an endless mission.

Shameless plug on how to resolve this.

Also, ESO is nothing more than a mistake that justifies the existence of nuke frames. Now if DE were to nerf them and rightfully so, it would be excruciatingly difficult to run it if you're trying to get the rewards.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

The problem, ultimately, is that most co-op content here is designed to award efficient Kills Per Second similar to a game of digital whack-a-mole...

So the frames that are designed to "whacks those moles the fastest" will always shine—And since the "moles" are finite, the slower frames are typically left twiddling their thumbs.

Perhaps rather than scaling every mob it should scale up select "heavy" units in between the chaff.

Then again I've suggested this before in some threads and been ignored (at best) or insulted (more commonly) so what do I know.

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