The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[RivaAurelius]

2 hours ago, Krankbert said:

I get that, I disagree with it, and so does the entire gaming industry. That's why I suggest you play a game that was no longer maintained - because if a multiplayer game gets patches, there will be nerfs.

And the fact that nerfs are sometimes necessary for balance is not something I am upset about? What I do take greivance with is the idea that the ONLY way to balance stuff is to nerf it. DE wants to give us a system that offers many compelling options, but they poorly think through selecting which options, give us maybe 10 comeplling options, 33 poor ones, and nerf the top six. Does this sound like a good way to give players an exciting new mechanic to play around with? Some half baked, nerfed abilities? No. Buff the lackluster abilities, nerfs are not necessary here.

Like I already pointed out, I am not against nerfs on the principle that they are nerfs. I was fully on board with the zenurik and naramon nerfs because that was OP, they needed to be nerfed because they completely trivialised gameplay. This system hasn't even been released yet and already DE is taking it to the butchers. They promised us buffs, not nerfs. 

[Fogg]

6 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

until they say other wise, so long its a normal frame and not umbra/a prime, you can subsume it.

Apologies for being unclear.

Example: Classic Excalibur with installed Orokin Reactor, (Umbral/Aura/Regular) Forma(s), a Lens, and Exilus Adapter.

Here are the three likely scenarios I see:

1. (My ideal scenario) Helminth eats the frame and spits out the installed parts to use on other frames, like trying to hide medicine for a dog in its food

2. (Not a total sacrifice) Helminth eats the frame and we get credit for the installed parts as if we fed those parts to Helminth as well. If the example was a burger then Excal is the patty, but the buns, bacon, and blue cheese are the installed parts.

3, (My understanding of the current "Fresh Meat" system) Helmnith eats the frame but we get no credit for our invested parts whatsoever, this leads to us building a new frame just to feed it to Helminth.

Thanks!

[SordidDreams]

27 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

The refutation is that DE removed the primary source of Nitain, and what they replaced it with was a metered form to earn it. My refutation is that this new metered form makes it more difficult for new players to earn. 

No it doesn't. Caches are still way more tedious. That's what we're talking about, remember? Caches.

29 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Did you note that the Braton Vandal is not sold in the store?  You might miss that nuance, so let me put this simpler.  Hema and Sibear are platinum purchases to DE.  You buy, virtual currency evaporates.  Braton Vandal is a forced grind by somebody.  They then get your platinum.  It can then either continue to circulate or be used on a DE purchase. That's the reason I highlight it.  It's bad grind, it isn't powerful enough to justify, but it misses the cardinal sin of being pay DE to win. 

You might have missed the nuance, so let me put it simpler: Every unit of platinum that can be traded has already been paid for with real money to DE. It doesn't matter whether you use your plat to buy a Hema or trade for a Braton Vandal, DE has already been paid for that plat either way. There is no difference.

32 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Warframe as a whole has how many players?  I'm going to call shenanigans unless you can cite some sources.  Warframe on PC, the only platform that shares numbers, has been shedding players since the release of PoE. 

https://steamcharts.com/app/230410#All

36 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Where's the negativity coming from? 

Jaded cynicism and overblown expectations, mostly.

33 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

This is DE trying to eat an elephant by dislocating their jaws. 

Yes, but again, that's the story of WF from its very beginning. Watch some of the interviews where they talk about the history, about trying to pitch the game to various publishers and being told again and again that they're biting off way more than they can chew and that they will never be able to sustain the game. Your arguments for why it can't work are very eloquent, but nevertheless they are not very persuasive in the face of the reality that it has kept working for the better part of a decade. Yes, nothing lasts forever, so eventually it will stop, but that doesn't make you right. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

37 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

That's 30000 for medallions

Which is 1.5 relic packs for 6 syndicate missions, or 9 relics for 12 syndicate missions. Or you could do 12 relic farming missions and get 12 relics, of the correct tier to boot. I don't know why you include all the other standing you can gain by doing missions and such, that's not relevant to what I said, namely that hoarding medallions in anticipation of a prime drop is not worth it. Hopefully you get it now.

42 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Endgame, high level enemies, and rewards are all inextricably tied to why people keep engaging with the game.  The conversation is being had because DE needs systems like the Helminth to instill infinite variation without adding new content.  This infinite variation would basically offer an endgame without having to rely on bullet sponges and new content. 

Except not, because with a limited number of frames, there only a limited number of combinations, most of which are going to be obviously garbage at first glance and not even worth trying. Helminth is no different than a new open world; it does provide a new incentive to play the game for a while, but it is in no way evergreen.

52 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

All of this is to say that a potential for endgame without being tied to rewards or bullet sponges has been flushed without even giving it a chance to breathe.  That's the reason to discuss all of this, and to be frustrated with the response.

Wrong, that potential never existed simply due to the kind of game that WF is (which is to say a progression-based game where gear trumps skill by a large margin).

[selig_fay]

13 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

smite is a good ability, like i said, i like it. however i highly doubt people will put it, if they cant make use of that slot. its CC is good, on oberon, but it cant compete with better cc abilities like radial blind, even the proc of rad isnt as good as a weapon build to spread status... and since abilities can proc growing power, its not even usefull for that. lastly its damage is good, but even at full power, its nothing to write home about.

Well, here you already need to select depending on the goals. As a CC + damage buff, it loses to radial blind when you have a melee in your hands, but wins when you have a range weapon. On the other hand, status prock isn't a problem if you go crit weapons and don't care about proc, because corrosion and radiation already ignore the armor enough.

[Krankbert]

vor 35 Minuten schrieb Keyhound:

i never said they would nerf EVERYTHING, but you cant just expect them to not start a racing downhill... if they made something worse, its only fair to expect that they will nerf that one as well. or else, that would mean that they will either: unerf, or, forget and let it in the dump... there arent many choices there.

I can expect them to keep designing the game the way they've been doing it these past years, the way they have always done. I don't know how many times I've said it already, but nerfs aren't a new concept. This isn't some sacred barrier being crossed, from which there is no turning back. There have in fact been nerfs before, and none of those led to a race downhill. In fact, you'll find that instead, people are complaining about power creep and the game being too easy.

[Leqesai]

24 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

I can expect them to keep designing the game the way they've been doing it these past years, the way they have always done. I don't know how many times I've said it already, but nerfs aren't a new concept. This isn't some sacred barrier being crossed, from which there is no turning back. There have in fact been nerfs before, and none of those led to a race downhill. In fact, you'll find that instead, people are complaining about power creep and the game being too easy.

The voice of reason in a crowd of screaming naivety.

[Adversary]

Check how two guys saying nerfs are right demolish 150 pages of people saying they're bad in the eyes of DE

[IzzyTH-I51]

just a quick note on the lotus flowers...

please try to make sure their stems are a little more organic, looks great though.

[Krankbert]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb krazox:

Check how two guys saying nerfs are right demolish 150 pages of people saying they're bad in the eyes of DE

I'm sure they can be convinced that they're going to nerf every single ability into the ground if enough people tell them so.

[EonCode]

En 23/8/2020 a las 9:46, kevoisvevo dijo:

what does your shotgun and child analogy have to do with any of the point?

Means that players that have the the same knowledge of the game as an infant of the worlds function, should not touch the Helminth system, and as I said before, insering stars in ayatan treasure is MR 10 meanwhile THIS SYSTEMS IS MR 8 💢

[EonCode]

hace 11 minutos, IzzyTH-I51 dijo:

just a quick note on the lotus flowers...

please try to make sure their stems are a little more organic, looks great though.

Lotus flowers look like that. Literally.

[selig_fay]

The update will drop tomorrow as planned. We will see if something has changed. But for some reason I'm more interested in necromech than helminth.

https://www.warframe.com/deimos

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 minute ago, EonCode said:

Lotus flowers look like that. Literally.

They do?, Huh..

[EonCode]

Justo ahora, Circle_of_Psi dijo:

They do?, Huh..

[ConsumerJTC]

So have they updated the MR requirements of the flower garden?

[(XBOX)B100DBATH82]

2 hours ago, (PS4)phelan_1988 said:

I made an alt account on PC because I wanted to see how much better it is than the PS4 version (much) and I absolutely did this. Now most new players cannot, but if they know what the efficient MR grind is to do, it's not super hard. I got that account to MR16 (so I had everything unlocked that I might want to trade for) in a few weeks. I think first picking up Warframe to Tigris Prime was a couple months or so, so even MR15 is a stretch for 'veteran players', back then I still thought Frost was a good warframe (before you ask, this was just after Plains, so no, he wasn't).

 

Realistically, I'm still putting Roar or Dispensary on the same frames I originally planned to, but holy crap am I glad I saw this before I farmed another Nidus. This still sucks. They promised updates to the subsumed abilities to make the system compelling and instead we get nerfs for it. I love the people at DE, I watch a lot of the streams, I UNDERSTAND Pablo's explanation that buffs are harder than nerfs, but buffs are what you promised three weeks ago. The subsume list is full of really bad options, stuff I'll only farm because I'm a sucker for the Lotus garden, anyone who took a passing glance at it would know what the overwhelming choices were going to be. I don't understand this.

 

edit re: Steve's gif... I am choosing to read this as "there's a massive firehose of feedback we just can't process all at once", but seeing as the gist of the comments have been fairly uniform I don't think I agree.

Well ya caught me. Sure it was baiting but not to the players. This guy ticks the box you keep skipping. Mr gating is pointless if you KNOW the grind. It only slows the uninformed. Abilities should translate as they are on the donor frame or whats the point of the whole thing. Who wants to do all the farming over for watered down abilities. This just looks like another thing thatll be cool for a bit then die off half completed and ignored by vets because in the end meta builds will still outshine it. If bs infuriates you good. Thats the point its bs.

[papry]

Il y a 9 heures, RS219 a dit :

A worded statement saying that a comprehensive response would be released prior to release would have been significantly better than this vague meme.

 

I'm pretty not happy about this non answer.

I think it's time to stop giving DE money until they take feedback into consideration.

[RivaAurelius]

16 minutes ago, EonCode said:

Lotuses are dope, I wonder what 43 lotuses bundled together in the helminth room is gonna look like. 

[IzzyTH-I51]

12 minutes ago, EonCode said:

Lotus flowers look like that. Literally.

they do have really straight stems, but they do have some slight bends to them as well.

 

just a little bit of bendiness is what I'm getting at.

but yeah, they are super straight, I'm just thinking though having 44+ perfectly straight stems next to each other might look weird.

just a tiny bit.

[(XBOX)HollowCube987]

Anyone else think it's dirty that DE nerfed Rhino's infused roar, and then on the HoD hype website, it advertises that you could put Roar on Valkyr if you so desire? They got us hyped for abilitiy swapping during Tennocon 2020, then dissapointed us with the list of infused abilities. We made the most out of the list, and chose some abilities that had high potential. This caused DE to reduce the effectiveness of the 5 abilities and put an additional armor cap on Defy for some reason, which got the community livid for days. DE din't respond to the forums being on fire, instead letting the anger die down on its own.

When I seen the ad for putting Roar on any frame you desire given everything we went through days prior, I was furious enough to chop a phone book in half. It takes Tesla Orbs the size of Canada to get our hopes up, say "No, that's not our vision," slap our hand away, and then make an ad like they didn't just nerf the only good transferable abilities.

[Adversary]

hace 1 hora, papry dijo:

 

I'm pretty not happy about this non answer.

I think it's time to stop giving DE money until they take feedback into consideration.

Me too, this is the same guy that said in an interview that Warframe was complex enough so that analytic players could come play and input some mental energy on the game.

Tell me the mental energy that took him to answer that meme.

EDIT: I'm a bit tired of edits, mods, you can always PM me if I'm breaking any rule that I didn't know of, but don't change what I say please.

[NoLife]

One day out till release and I am still actively de-incentivised from interacting with the system. Neat.

[Piimpollo]

Any info about the exact time release? 

[Keyhound]

5 minutes ago, NoLife said:

One day out till release and I am still actively de-incentivised from interacting with the system. Neat.

dont worry, it requires rank 3 in the deimos syndicate... meaning most people will take around a week to even be able to start subsuming...

[OniDax]

So are they just not going to publish the actual nerfed numbers?