Hot take: it makes zero sense to use the most OP loadouts/builds/frames/rivens/arcanes imaginable and then turn around and complain that warframe is too easy or we're too powerful.

[Yagamilight123]

hace 4 horas, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA dijo:

because nobody is forcing you to completely min max everything. You don't have to use primed mods or rivens or arcanes or helminth infused warframes or the best weapons if you dont want to and its hilarious how every time this point someone says:

 

"Well. I shouldnt have to play with a hand tied behind my back just to have a challenge."

But they want to act like DE tying their hands back *for them* is somehow different than them excersizing a modicum of self control over the impulse to gravitate towards the bestest stuff. 

 

Id rather have the option of being "over powered", or not, than have the game only appeal to the nerf herders.

So .... your argument its that people should  tied one arm to their backs or playing with their eyes close so the game can be "challenging" ? ... yeah ... its not stupid at all eh . The point of any game is becoming the best you can be (skills , gear , knowledge ,etc ) ... When doing that eliminate all game challenge , its simple due to a bad game desing . Not to mention that you argument is even more incoherent because you play with 3 other players .... so based in you argument you would need to convince them to play like crap too or you are not going to be able to do anything in the entire mision .

[EonCode]

My issue is when You have a wisp with 300 range on hidron and staggers enemies in spawn points and you need 15m to clean a 2.5min run, not accepting critique its also a HUGE issue here; why do I have to have a bad game due to someone having the negative neurons of an algae?

[killerJoke66]

1 minute ago, EonCode said:

My issue is when You have a wisp with 300 range on hidron and staggers enemies in spawn points and you need 15m to clean a 2.5min run, not accepting critique its also a HUGE issue here; why do I have to have a bad game due to someone having the negative neurons of an algae?

ahahhha , love the commentary.

[Monolake]

If 'leveling up' and upgrades ruin the game to the point you have to not use them to have any fun and gameplay - that only means gamedesigners massively failed at their job. Oh and you have to play solo too, or some OP player will kill all the mobs before you get to see them so you wont get to play the game at all. This is the design dead-end DE had ran WF into. 

[Miser_able]

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

I disagree with this completely. If you put a lot of time into a game, you want to be progressing your account in a positive direction. This means you get better stuff. When the game continues to raise the ceiling of total power, but doesnt provide any meaningful counter to it, things get stale. It's a completely dumb argument to tell people to just start un-progressing because DE isn't capable of producing stuff that tests the raised power limit. Fortuna on launch was a damn fun update when you had level 4 beacons with hoards of difficult enemies pushing towards you in a Toroid farm or Bounty. I'm not going to pretend that there was a time when Warframe was really challenging, but the purpose of a players progression has slowly been taken away. We don't have the Void for example which was hands down the best place to test equipment and be rewarded for it. Steel Path is a great foundation for this problem, so I'm hoping DE works off that.

except that often times people force themselves to use the OP meta gear which they don't like just because its strong and then they complain that warframe isn't challenging and boring. which is just plain stupid, if you force yourself to use a weapon you dont like just because its strong then you cant complain about not having fun

[Tesseract7777]

I can gimp myself to give myself a challenge. I do all the time to keep the game from getting stale.

But I sure as !#@$ shouldn't HAVE to in order to be challenged. 

[Tesseract7777]

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

Steel Path is a great foundation for this problem, so I'm hoping DE works off that.

I like this idea. Why not use Steel Path to try experimenting with some more actual difficulty for vets, starting with harder miniboss enemies again. 

Use Steel Path to bring back harder manics, and way more spawns. Bring back harder Bursas, bring back old Fortuna spawns for Steel Path. Let people do their Kuva Lich on Steel Path and let it rank up even further to like 200 or something and I wasn't here for it, but bring back that nasty move I heard the liches had before people complained. Take the drones away from nullifier bubbles. Increase enemy miniboss spawns. 

And if people complain, they can just say "it's Steel Path it's supposed to be hard, go play the normal map if you don't like it". 

Btw, this is something I have been kind of randomly thinking about lately. But you remember those new eximus with the weakpoints DE profiled a while back and then shelved after whining from people that it would be too hard before it was even released? I was just realizing lately they basically reused/tweaked that mechanic for the new glass enemies from the latest chorewave. 

[Hypernaut1]

6 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I  it". 

Btw, this is something I have been kind of randomly thinking about lately. But you remember those new eximus with the weakpoints DE profiled a while back and then shelved after whining from people that it would be too hard before it was even released? I was just realizing lately they basically reused/tweaked that mechanic for the new glass enemies from the latest chorewave. 

Difference between the reaction to those eximus units and nighwave glass enemies is that YouTubers didn't have time to get their followers to rage about it. Turns out that aiming for weak spots isn't that terrible at all. Glass enemies are still annoying, but I appreciate having to change up my strategy a bit when they appear

[Krankbert]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Hypernaut1:

Difference between the reaction to those eximus units and nighwave glass enemies is that YouTubers didn't have time to get their followers to rage about it.

If you're so arrogant that you can't accept that other people actually have an opinion, you should go away and rethink your life.

[DrivaMain]

With the constant power creep where we can literally turn off the AI it’s impossible to create engaging content without including cheap tactics : Constant CC and power nullification.

The problem is not adding the changes itself, but having the guts to do it and the willingness of the player base to accept the change.

See The Helminth System? Yep, 1 balancing change later and there is mass hysteria in the forums. Shows you that a large part of the player base cannot accept such change

 

 

[Teridax68]

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

I disagree with this completely. If you put a lot of time into a game, you want to be progressing your account in a positive direction. This means you get better stuff. When the game continues to raise the ceiling of total power, but doesnt provide any meaningful counter to it, things get stale. It's a completely dumb argument to tell people to just start un-progressing because DE isn't capable of producing stuff that tests the raised power limit. Fortuna on launch was a damn fun update when you had level 4 beacons with hoards of difficult enemies pushing towards you in a Toroid farm or Bounty. I'm not going to pretend that there was a time when Warframe was really challenging, but the purpose of a players progression has slowly been taken away. We don't have the Void for example which was hands down the best place to test equipment and be rewarded for it. Steel Path is a great foundation for this problem, so I'm hoping DE works off that.

I completely agree with this. When a game incentivizes the player to become more powerful, but then provides no content capable of entertaining the player past a certain threshold, it's not the player's fault if the game becomes boring, because that's a byproduct of the game's design. Telling players to downgrade themselves in a game that also incentivizes speed and reliability in completing missions in order to obtain loot is, at best, not going to change things at all, and at worst merely an attempt to excuse poor design and balance. We should be allowed to progress without the game becoming trivial and unchallenging as a result. You know, like virtually every other game with a progression system. The only thing that makes zero sense in this discussion is how players somehow get to argue the OP's position despite Warframe being one of the very few games out there with such a poor handle on its own balance. The sheer amount of ignorance of other games required to argue that is itself difficult to believe, as one would have to have essentially played no other game at all in order to believe that there cannot be progress and a challenge in the same game.

[Cloud]

5 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

because nobody is forcing you to completely min max everything. You don't have to use primed mods or rivens or arcanes or helminth infused warframes or the best weapons if you dont want to and its hilarious how every time this point someone says:

 

"Well. I shouldnt have to play with a hand tied behind my back just to have a challenge."

But they want to act like DE tying their hands back *for them* is somehow different than them excersizing a modicum of self control over the impulse to gravitate towards the bestest stuff. 

 

Id rather have the option of being "over powered", or not, than have the game only appeal to the nerf herders.

In part I agree with you, but you need to consider that the same nosense goes for a player to invest time into enhancing his loadout and then someone say: "Okay if you want to have fun, just unequip everything you worked and farmed for "

In every successfull game I ever played you start with A and use it for the concent in which you reach B, then you use B to get C (or on par alternatives C1/C2/C3/C4) and so on.

Then you have warframe in which even new content can be done with A, and if you do it with Z7 (for example) is absurdly trivial. And you tell me :" if you want to enjoy the content just use A or B". It does not really make sense. Why have I invested in improving my possibilities if you don't give me the opportunities to appreciate them.

And when people ask for challenging content, that is exactly what they want, not a nerf, not a power limiting mode, tjust something which give opportunities to let us appreciate the full potential of our min-maxed builds. The fact that DE has yet to gauge properly how to convey such possibilities is not community fault. 

[Ethorin]

9 minutes ago, Cloud said:

The fact that DE has yet to gauge properly how to convey such possibilities is not community fault. 

DE has tried literally every suggestion people have had in this thread.

 

In point of fact, if you  want something with a strict time limit and weakpoints there's a neat Archwing mode JUST for you. No one plays it because it SUUUUUUCKS.

 

And again, Jackal Mk2.

[Krankbert]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Ethorin:

In point of fact, if you  want something with a strict time limit and weakpoints there's a neat Archwing mode JUST for you. No one plays it because it SUUUUUUCKS.

It could be the best game mode in the world and it would still suck because it's Archwing.

[Cloud]

9 minutes ago, Ethorin said:

DE has tried literally every suggestion people have had in this thread.

 

In point of fact, if you  want something with a strict time limit and weakpoints there's a neat Archwing mode JUST for you. No one plays it because it SUUUUUUCKS.

 

And again, Jackal Mk2.

DE should not need people suggestion in the first place. They're professionals, it's not a community call to say how to fix a problem on system balance. What the community must do is just provide feedback on DE elaborated answers.

and the kind of mode you're suggesting is just one of the bad solutions DE found to address the problem. As I said in my first post people don't want "more limits" but "more variables to consider, more approaches to use, more opportunities to enjoy the full potential of our builds. And if they cannot found a proper solution with the actual damage system because everything could be trivialized, then the damage system should be changed to begin with.

[Krankbert]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Cloud:

DE should not need people suggestion in the first place. They're professionals, it's not a community call to say how to fix a problem on system balance. What the community must do is just provide feedback on DE elaborated answers.

I can't remember who said it, but there's the adage that players are extremely good at spotting problems in a game and really, really bad at providing solutions for them.

[DeadlySurgeon]

When you have to design your own challenge in a video game, it's usually a sign that something's gone wrong along the way. By all means, nerf everything if it means working towards a more challenging experience, but go all the way, don't just slap down a few outliers for the sake of "build variety."

[Lost_Cartographer]

Players have to gimp themselves to find a "challenge."  DE is constantly in a battle of designing content for people that META game and are okay with using a select, small selection of frames and weapons that can get the job done, then backtracking so that people that want to use something else than a bow with exploding arrows can and not feel like they're shooting BBs into a brick wall.

But the damage system isn't necessarily the problem - it's ability spam.  There's too many options gain energy outside of blue orb drops.  When you can spam your 100 energy abilities as freely as your 25's, there's going to be a major balance issue.  Especially when with mods powers can stretch across far too many meters, in all directions, ignoring cover.  Irony is, DE can't address these problems... because then the very people asking for challenge scream and cry when the very methods to kill said challenge are removed.  They introduced Corpus nullifiers and people moaned.  I've no doubt any new enemy introduced specifically to combat the player's ridiculous potential for fire power, control, and/or durability wouldn't be well received at all.

So yeah, handicap yourselves, or accept that the ability spam needs to be curtailed considerably, because no improving of the AI will increase the game's challenge.  When even the most basic tactic available to the AI - taking cover - is railed against whenever it works against AoE abilities, better AI won't help, and DE can only choose to balance around the majority of weapons and mods or the select few that happen to out perform the rest.  If your idea of challenge is beating a bigger health bar, I'm sorry, you're not looking for a challenge, you're looking for a bigger ego.

So take your pick, handicap yourselves, or request a forced, actually effective handicap from DE.  We've long since established bigger health bars and OHKO potential isn't challenging when you can win every mission at the arsenal.

[HeartPurity]

The jelly people mindset is different, in their jelly world, it works like this: "how can they be more powerful than me! how can they run so fast! how can they kill so fast! How dare they to have top rivens when I only got -multishot sheev riven! NERF THEM!" I am happy to have powerful teammates but sure it is hard to understand jelly people. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

7 hours ago, Voltage said:

I disagree with this completely. If you put a lot of time into a game, you want to be progressing your account in a positive direction. This means you get better stuff. When the game continues to raise the ceiling of total power, but doesnt provide any meaningful counter to it, things get stale. It's a completely dumb argument to tell people to just start un-progressing because DE isn't capable of producing stuff that tests the raised power limit. Fortuna on launch was a damn fun update when you had level 4 beacons with hoards of difficult enemies pushing towards you in a Toroid farm or Bounty. I'm not going to pretend that there was a time when Warframe was really challenging, but the purpose of a players progression has slowly been taken away. We don't have the Void for example which was hands down the best place to test equipment and be rewarded for it. Steel Path is a great foundation for this problem, so I'm hoping DE works off that.

Agreed completely 

[bibmobello]

7 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

I totally disagree.

Right now, because of the insane power gap between normal and min-maxed builds, you can't design difficult content because it fall into one of these two issues :

• The content is designed to be difficult with random builds, so it's easily cheesed with min-maxed ones.
• The content is designed for min-maxed build, so it's not doable with normal gears.

The ideal solution would be to lower most of mod values to reduce the gap between random builds and min-maxed ones, which allow an easier difficulty and challenge management for devs. But if this happens, most of non-theorycrafters will complain about nerf as always.

Also, it's important to consider people who min-max are generally tryharders that also more skill than average players, so it crease the gap even more.

It's pretty simple, develop new enemies able to destroy some abilities even on other factions. I mean nova can slow down a whole map, just put down a big heavy enemy able to nullify that ability till  you don't destroy it. Put more enemies able to see invisible frames like reaknoid in fortuna. Enemies with reflecting abilities.

Just take some acolytes and make them common enemies.

And so on...

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

2 hours ago, Miser_able said:

except that often times people force themselves to use the OP meta gear which they don't like just because its strong and then they complain that warframe isn't challenging and boring. which is just plain stupid, if you force yourself to use a weapon you dont like just because its strong then you cant complain about not having fun

At this point in warframe even without the most meta builds the game is amazingly easy and provides little to no sense of progression imo. The plateau for warframe profession flatlined many updates Ago. And I feel like that’s whats another major factor In The decline and the divide from the playerbase. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

6 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Just off the top of my head and I'm no game developer. 

- Bosses that require movement skills to beat for example chasing a boss through an obstacle course that actually challenges the parkour we've learnt ie bullet jump isn't gonna cut it.
- Enemies with weakpoints, Nox is one of the best designs in the game, more of this kind of thing, enemies that are immune to a certain damage type and require us to bring more than just 1 uber melee weapon of death ie a varied loadout not just "mod for viral". Enemies that have potential to do damage upon death, making us consider when we kill them(ever pop a level 300+ Nox next to an Excavator?). enemies immune to cc, enemies that can freeze us in place, be actually threatening etc.
- missions that require timing between players and or use more than 4 tenno, Raids used to do some of this, imagine if Scarlet Spear event had us all starting on the Railjack, fighting our way through an enemy fleet, then dropping off half the team who go into a ground mission, storming an enemy settlement to gain access to a base which first requires the Railjack crew to take down the protective shields via destroying a generator onboard an enemy space station, then the ground crew accessing the base and gaining the codes we require before the Railjack blows it up from orbit. What did we get instead? "Do this mobile defense mission 17 times".
 

I love all of these ideas tbh

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

7 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

I've been saying for so long that the people who complain are those who have played this game for thousands of hours, have all the knowledge and all the best equipment, and still delude themselves into thinking that doing that in any other game will somehow lead to a different result.

Honestly it does. Have a good roll x or all of the strongest items across other MMOs or rpgs or looter shooters dosent necessitate the game being easy a bore or any of the aforementioned terms. It’s just how the game is designed. And to be frank warframe is fundamentally flawed at its core. I’m not a meta head. But getting mad at a meta freak for playing the game and telling them to nerf themselves makes no true sense either. Isn’t that what we’re all supposed to do in theory? Get as strong as we can to fight the strongest enemies. But in warframe case improper balancing and much more has screwed that majorly. 

[Lancars]

I get a riven i give it a few rolls till i get something i generally like and put it in. I don't try to find THE BEST ROLL but i usually hope to get something that i can swap out another mod for to just give my build that little tweak. (Tho with how they design content as of late i feel like i need a riven in the first place because they are balancing things around them)

What annoyed me about rivens for a bit was all the videos about "BEST GOD ROLL RIVEN MAX DAMAGE" with jazzed up preview icons. And then trade being filled with riven spam of people asking for 10k plat or more for their so called god roll. I don't think any of them are worth the high prices due to the dispositions being in flux.

PS: I do hope to get a riven for my wolf sledge at some point cause i use the wrench skin on it and i like to throw it at things cause "haha big wrench go thump"