Heart of Deimos: New Syndicates & Economy Feedback Megathread

[Frendh]

Now when I think about it both Necraloid syndicate and Entrati syndicate are MR locked. Necraloid first has an MR 11 lock then MR 14. Entrati has an MR 11 lock. Which is even less cool than I previously thought.

[Cirinwe]

Really not a fan of the requirements for the Necraloid Syndicate. Requiring a bunch of weapon matrixes for the second step (which is what the personal necramech seems to be locked behind) is a lot, I haven't even found a single one yet - persumably they're only found in the isolation vault thing which is kind of a pain to do at the best of times. 

 

As for the Entrati Syndicate, I think it's fine. The token system doesn't bother me so much since I really like conservation and fishing anyway (though both systems seem to have been 'dumbed down' for lack of a better term). I can see how some folks might not like it though, as it makes it harder to rank up the syndicate with combat-based methods. 

 

As ever, the synicate grind is just a lot, and not in a 'wow, so much content to do!' way. It's in the 'I can't wait to be done with this' way. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

I swear people spend more time complaining about conservation and tokens than actually just doing it.
An hour or so of flying around and tranqing random spawns with a booster was enough for me to have 20+ son tokens just waiting for some of the better turn-ins on refresh.

Please should actually just do it instead of immediately complaining.

Talking about things being "mandatory" or not is always a bad argument.
You don't have to do anything.
A lot of that can be seen with a large portion of the community staying at like MR16-18 because they feel no need to continue progressing and dealing with content.
You have to do specific things to get specific things in the game. This isn't anything new.

#Logic.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

4 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

That is not considering the grind you have to put in, to begin with. And that you need to run f*****g boring non-combat activities, that the majority of players hate.

Of course it isn't, I'm talking purely about banking rep here. I'm not talking about the frustration of being forced to engage in conservation just to advance, which is a totally legit criticism. Still, DE is listening, the most recent hotfix did make some big changes to how much conservation you need to do to advance, at this point it might well be possible to advance simply by randomly tranquing critters you run into in the wild without having to even bother with the tracking minigame. I'm not sure, I haven't gotten a chance to play with it yet, but I'm liking the patch notes I see.

But, in general Deimos is like the anti-grind. A single high level bounty can provide 8k standing in the form of mother tokens. That's considerably more than what you get out of equivalent bounties on the Vallis or Plains.  Not only do bounties provide more standing, but they provide that standing independent of the daily cap. The only other open world syndicates that do this are the Quills and Vox Solaris, and both of those need you to go out of your way to acquire the tokens they use for standing compared to simply running bounties. Then there's the fish and minerals, which you can get doing vaults - unlike the Plains or the Vallis, we got our combat focused mineral/fish part dispenser on day 1 without having to wait for DE to finish it first. 

[Frendh]

23 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Four people with presumably a resource and drop chance booster.  That's great, shape your economy around having to buy boosters....Hopefully you get the issue, but if not explain to me why the release state of titanium was acceptable for railjack.  I'll wait.  As a reminder, it was double.  That was insufficient, and it was doubled again.  If you use a booster today is would be 8x the drop rate at the beginning, which is almost an order of magnitude more.

My point is that the returns don't diminish after MR 16, they evaporate. 

So, it takes you 2 evenings if you can't afford the 40 plat per player. Still not a problem from my point of view. That is 4 players out of 10 possible(max clan size is 10?).

I think DE has made a good choice by not making players feel a need max out their MR. The perks you get for higher MR are plenty good as I see it. At MR 29 you rank up syndicates about twice as fast as I do and have more than twice the possible amount of void traces stored. Plus a few other small perks. I am pretty sure no players reaches max MR without knowing what benefits they will get out of it. It is a choice they made. They have not wasted their time by accident. And all other players can just relax and play the game the way they want to.

I have not built a railjack.

[PhoenixElite]

Please get rid of the timers, the price-ranging, and the one-time-buy nature of all tokens. These literally add nothing of value or interest and only serve to screw people over with the RNG nature by either having them waste time browsing through for the most efficient costs, limiting them to only being able to buy one, potentially preventing someone from buying anything entirely until the next refresh. 

The token system COULD work, extremely well, but these 3 things just make it overly-complicated, and add SEVERAL stupid layers of RNG that do absolutely nothing good

[(PSN)Absoluteboxer]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

#Logic.

Logic is presenting a system and gameplay at tennocon. Then doing something else entirely.

I'll tell you this last night I did the 3 high tier vault missions over and over and over again till 2am in the morning with my friend.

THAT WAS ACTUALLY FUN!

Why? Cuz that was the gameplay we were presented at tennocon. The gameplay we were presented at the idea of Warframe before we installed it the first time on our systems. 

It wasn't go look for animals on a buggy system (which limited number of people have had success with. Yes I'm talking to you the supporters of this you are the minority and outlier of this) in order to unlock the gameplay which we were promised.

 

In our vault runs we did last night we obtained many resources needed for the daimos token update EXCEPT FOR THE SON TOKENS. Why does this have to be god damn rocket science.

 

Let me put it this way. The top warframe youtubers: quiteshy tactical potatoe grind hard squad etc... Haven't even had the success you had in conservation... It's LITERALLY their job and source of income to grind and go through warframe content to sustain their livelyhood and they find it to be a chore.

  How do you think the rest us feel who are not doing this as a part of their job feel. When the game is supposed to be a source of escapism in a period of human history- a global pandemic and societal disorder - has caused such levels of aggravation...

There's good stuff in this update yes but my God is it crippled by the whiney emo son and his damn broken, time gating, force fed non combative excuse for content, token system!!!

[(PSN)Absoluteboxer]

5 minutes ago, PhoenixElite said:

Please get rid of the timers, the price-ranging, and the one-time-buy nature of all tokens. These literally add nothing of value or interest and only serve to screw people over with the RNG nature by either having them waste time browsing through for the most efficient costs, limiting them to only being able to buy one, potentially preventing someone from buying anything entirely until the next refresh. 

The token system COULD work, extremely well, but these 3 things just make it overly-complicated, and add SEVERAL stupid layers of RNG that do absolutely nothing good

The whole son token timer system is broken.

It takes so much work and effort (away from core gameplay) to find very specific animals to obtain said token. Only for the timer to run out and then all the work you have put in is almost for nothing (until it cycles in again) there's so much frustration and anger that I and others have now nueral pathway associated with the Son token system and by proxy this update. Which is leading to disdain for the game and company as well. 

 

I can't reiterate anymore how this is a horrible decision that they have made!

 

At least lunaro was in conclave mode which almost no one plays...

[master_of_destiny]

3 minutes ago, Frendh said:

So, it takes you 2 evenings if you can't afford the 40 plat per player. Still not a problem from my point of view. That is 4 players out of 10 possible(max clan size is 10?).

I think DE has made a good choice by not making players feel a need max out their MR. The perks you get for higher MR are plenty good as I see it. At MR 29 you rank up syndicates about twice as fast as I do and have more than twice the possible amount of void traces stored. Plus a few other small perks. I am pretty sure no players reaches max MR without knowing what benefits they will get out of it. It is a choice they made. They have not wasted their time by accident. And all other players can just relax and play the game the way they want to.

I have not built a railjack.

The math is bad.

5000 as a base clan, which means up to 10 people.  At that, it's 500 per player assuming that everyone wants to dedicate an entire evening.  In my experience a 20+ minute survival without any booster but with a desecrating Nekros yielded under 40 mutagen samples....so about 2 samples per minute.  500/2 = 250 minutes = 4 hours and 10 minutes.  If you have a full clan.  If you've got 4 people it'll be about double that....which matches yo your vague "one group an evening with boosters."  

 

Now scale up.  Each inclusion of larger clan count also scales up the requirements.  It's particularly garbage if you're a one person clan because everybody else decided to uninstall the game after the 20th round of not getting a 10% drop chance item...

 

 

Regarding poor economy....perhaps you should not make excuses.  Let's look at both Liches and Railjack.  In the former you get a controllable weapon element, and RNG weapon, and an RNG value.  The element is controlled by what frame you choose, and you have the ability to not kill a larvling if their weapon is not desired.  Fine.  You then have to grind through multiple forma (5) to unlock the weapon fully.  You also have to grind multiple weapons to fuse them to the best stats.  All of this is built upon a grind of thralls...and a Lich which you can at best get a 1 in 6 chance of killing even if you somehow slaughter all the thralls before they level up.  More likely, it's a 1 in 8*7*6 of 1 in 336 chance to get it right.  That's a huge grind to get...at most...a 60% elemental addition to a weapon.

Let's talk railjack.  At release there were two mining locations to get what new resources you needed, and two eximus unit drop planets.  It has since become eximus drop exclusive.  You get the railjack, and now you've got RNG gear dropping.  That gear is one of three tiers, or of three manufacturers, and is unlikely to be the best stats.  I say this because I've literally had 1 thing drop maxed and have completed all of railjack (intrinsics and built gear).  Now initially there was no valence transfer, the return on scrapping was worse, and the economy was immediately identified as terrible but it took weeks to get anything to happen.  Bad decisions, a half release, and the need to quadruple drops to make the grind bearable.

Let's look at Deimos....Scintillant.  Enough said, though I could call out the Loid syndicate as well.  Time shall tell if this is fixed, but the constant release of bad grindy economies is a show stopper.  It's especially so when you consider people just don't play updates for a couple of weeks because it's known this garbage is SOP (standard operating procedure) since PoE.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

Thank you DE for adding plat daily deals to Son. Problem solved.

[Stormhaven13]

This new hotfix does not fix the Son tokens at all. They are almost entirely useless, and the best way to show this is to compare the amount of standing a single animal gives in each of the open worlds.

PoE: 400-3600. This is still not much, but was added in later, so I give it a lot more slack. Also, these animals can spawn in sets, so these numbers can be multiplied.

Fortuna: 400-8000. One of the best ways to farm daily standing is to go looking for Kubradons, which, if you screw up, still gives 1000 standing, and can give a full 8000 if you're both lucky and somewhat skilled.

Deimos: Hard to say offhand, as there are no 5 token items at the moment, and in general I can't tell for sure what the full numbers will be, but the current shop has somewhere between 80-500 per animal. This is a range that both common and rare animals fall into. 

So let's compare! If you get lucky in Fortuna and hunt down the rarest animal, you'll get 8000 standing. If you get a set in Fortuna, you could get above 7000, potentially. The rarest encounters in Deimos, if you find a group of 3, is 1,500. Approximately. I'm guessing my numbers aren't exactly right, this is only based off of the first shop, but my guess is with this much of a difference, its going to be a persistent problem. There needs to be some sort of change, whether that be massively cutting the price of son tokens, or greatly increasing their value, or the only reason anyone will be doing conservation is because they have to.

[HelixRook]

Based off the stream and announcements regarding the changes with update 4, I feel better about things. I still want infested roomba to be plat purchasable (I haven’t checked patch notes yet) but otherwise I feel a bit better about this update. 

[brunoswaag04]

Why is the helminth segment not a rank up reward?!

[Mr.Holyroller]

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

You want a short list?  Well, 5000 mutagen samples for the Hema.  30,000 cryotic for the sibear.  5% blue print drop rates for the Pennant and Quellor from a mission with one enemy that has that chance, assuming they even spawn.  2% drop rates for pieces of the Braton Vandal.  It's not fun for most people to grind their faces off, and be rewarded with a joke.  Think of it as the "Go Outside" achievement for The Stanley Parable.

Even without a booster, its like 2 hours max before the change today with son tokens just roaming and capturing
 

[killerJoke66]

2 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Who even does the math for your economy?  A single Kubrodon Incarnadine was worth 8,000 standing.  Most of the other animals were worth more standing in one cap than a single Son Token which STILL requires multiple caps of different animals.

8k standing is 16 Son Tokens, all of which appear to be more than 1 capture each.  Even if it's just 2 captures each, that's 32 captures for the same amount of standing as a single capture on the Vallis.  AND IT'S MANDATORY HERE.  WHAT THE #*!%.

youre being generous here with the numbers , realistically depending on the tokens you get from the son , generally it requires 3-4 of the hunted tags(even for the single tokens)  so that makes it roughtly 1 to 64 ratio ..... 
which i find very funny 

[Mr.Holyroller]

1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

ive done it and i dont like it. people have every right to complain about being forced to do something they do not like in light of the fact that DE made 2 other open worlds previously have alternative progression.

Most of that "alternative progression" was not available at the launch, but was provided later via exploiter orb and thumpers.

Again, the idea of being "forced" is based on your goals.
People that want mr29 are "forced" to collect everything, but you dont really see a lot of crying about it.
I don't like how people knee-jerk react to some rpg elements becoming necessary in a game where the community acts like content locusts always asking for more things to do or something new.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

Just now, killerJoke66 said:

youre being generous here with the numbers , realistically depending on the tokens you get from the son , generally it requires 3-4 of the hunted tags(even for the single tokens)  so that makes it roughtly 1 to 64 ratio ..... 
which i find very funny 

The point I was making was that even being generous it was absolutely atrocious.  Even if you don't mind conservation those are terrible numbers, dozens and dozens of caps for a pittance of standing.  I actively despise conservation.  That, combined with all the game-breaking, progression-losing bugs I keep encountering on the Drift so that even when I do make progress it gets stripped from me, I am days away from being able to just get to the parts of this update I was looking forward to.  

[Her_Lovely_Tentacles]

2 hours ago, Elunelis said:

WTF?
The robot has bipolar disorder, you mean that you condemn his LOOKS? If he does not understand who is in front of him, what is hinting at his speech in most dialogues, he considers you a miner, in every way he speaks out of topic. It is so inherent in it, it was invented that way, and you are trying to find oppression in it.
Are you against people with bipolar disorder? If you want to change this, then you condemn me because I am also sick.
 

His looks? What are you on about?
Also, it is obviously not bipolar disorder (that's something completely different)

There is nothing wrong with Loid and Otak, I just don't like being misgendered. In game, on reddit, in the forums, wherever - it's always "he this, he that" as if men suddenly forget that we exist on the internet. It gets old real quick. Gender neutral language is not hard.

And I am frankly tired of men telling me how to feel.

[master_of_destiny]

28 minutes ago, brunoswaag04 said:

Why is the helminth segment not a rank up reward?!

It gets better.

 

Buy the segment.  Buy the blue print for the mineral.  Discover it's another 24 hour wait...because.

 

 

FFS.

-edit-

And as an aside, Corpus ships are still spawning medallions outside of the reachable areas (in all previously reported areas).  Yeah, another garbage content patch that is getting long in the tooth with regards to grind but shorter and shorter in actual content.

[killerJoke66]

10 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

Most of that "alternative progression" was not available at the launch, but was provided later via exploiter orb and thumpers.

Again, the idea of being "forced" is based on your goals.
People that want mr29 are "forced" to collect everything, but you dont really see a lot of crying about it.
I don't like how people knee-jerk react to some rpg elements becoming necessary in a game where the community acts like content locusts always asking for more things to do or something new.

Can you please see the reasoning behind people not liking hunting being necessary for proggression in a main story-line based open world syndicate ? 

I will give an example ; imagine if there were to be a game for 'wild-life chill vibes hunting/fishing and occasionally cuttingwoods (mining in wf ) ' , the main premise of game is chill farming via interacting with the envoirnment  , 
now imagine in that game suddenly devs introduce a system where you need to fight 100 humans to unlock a chain-saw for cutting woods , the playerbase that play the game for chill vibes (or whatever you call that) now suddenly feel the necessity for something that they havent signed up for , vise versa for warframe . 

It is the same concept if we were to apply the lua like puzzles for lets say unlocking a frame , some people like puzzles and others dont , but forcing mini-games for main proggression is and i think will be always be considered bad.  

[(XBOX)KamikaZSquirrel]

Team DE, the best bit of advice for the next update... Don't showcase essential endgame content, instead leave it as a surprise as something to discover 😃

Reason I say this is the complaints vs actual constructive feedback. Most people lobbying for the removal of mostly conservation... But however it's for 1 reason.. Because they all want Helminth! 

Now I'm sorry for calling people out but most of the complaints I guarantee come from MR players below 15-16 anyway. As stated by the team at Tennocon, THIS IS NOT FOR Beginners! 

The demo had a high resource cost and at low MR I guarantee none of you have the surplus for it anyway so be patient.. Work through it a little at a time because you're gonna need to make the segment as well and I bet that's gonna cost you rare mining materials and if it doesn't? DE should make it cost them and conservation tags..  Double the amount of both of them simply to tick you all off! I however will enjoy the content and be happy to earn my prize 😃

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

Just now, (XB1)KamikaZSquirrel said:

Most people lobbying for the removal of mostly conservation... But however it's for 1 reason.. Because they all want Helminth! 

Or because a lot of us hate conservation and you don't get to decide why.

[killerJoke66]

again , yes we are not being physically forced , but if you want to proggress in the main stuff that isnt mini-games , disregarding the fact that it doesnt make sense but also drives players away , as for my experience as time goes on they nerf the grind for open worlds and it becomes no longer a hassle although the first days players are subject to these hilarous farm requrements such as 4 son tokens for rank 0 which really amazed me how it even got through to the offical release . 

Anyways they're learning even if tis a bit slow 
 

[Frendh]

58 minutes ago, (PS4)Absoluteboxer said:

Let me put it this way. The top warframe youtubers: quiteshy tactical potatoe grind hard squad etc... Haven't even had the success you had in conservation... It's LITERALLY their job and source of income to grind and go through warframe content to sustain their livelyhood and they find it to be a chore.

  How do you think the rest us feel who are not doing this as a part of their job feel. When the game is supposed to be a source of escapism in a period of human history- a global pandemic and societal disorder - has caused such levels of aggravation...

I like the token system and while I think animal hunting took  a lot of time before this update, it was not hard. Now after the update it seems ridiculously easy to get son tokens, considering they are 5 times as valuable for granny tokens. While I enjoy hunting, I still think it should be an alternative way to rank up your syndicate rather than a requirement.

[draco645]

OK DE u don't wanna fix the drop rates and u wanna nerf the mech farm on top of it.thats fine i have np keeping my money in my pocket.maybe in a few months i'll be able to actually enjoy the content but at this point i'm not going to hold my breathe.You are claiming that scintillant is supposed to be wisp 2.0 your not even close. i can get 3-8 wisps per run. 3 days now still sitting on 1 scintillant.even after the so called patch i still have yet to see a single 1 in a vault seen a mech drop a single 1and the missions that are suppose to drop them still don't. my suggestion to u is do them like a wisp and have at least 1 spawn inside the vault after u open it.but i'm not going to hold my breath for that either.