Heart of Deimos: New Syndicates & Economy Feedback Megathread

[LeafyPig]

i just release a maxed pet and got 0 son token...

 

[(PSN)Absoluteboxer]

17 minutes ago, draco645 said:

OK DE u don't wanna fix the drop rates and u wanna nerf the mech farm on top of it.thats fine i have np keeping my money in my pocket.maybe in a few months i'll be able to actually enjoy the content but at this point i'm not going to hold my breathe.You are claiming that scintillant is supposed to be wisp 2.0 your not even close. i can get 3-8 wisps per run. 3 days now still sitting on 1 scintillant.even after the so called patch i still have yet to see a single 1 in a vault seen a mech drop a single 1and the missions that are suppose to drop them still don't. my suggestion to u is do them like a wisp and have at least 1 spawn inside the vault after u open it.but i'm not going to hold my breath for that either.

Yup!

Btw this sh*t storm and the sh*tf*ckery that is the son tokens my money stays in my pocket. 

I speak for my clan, friends (who have full time jobs that spend money on plat) and others who I commune with in the gaming community.

Good word of mouth is good advertisement. Just saying.

[Rogunz]

29.04 changed basically nothing.

 

Conservation still rewards pitiful amounts of standing compared to the other open worlds and forces you to sacrifice your tags so you don't get floofs. Mining and fishing are still unrewarding leaving bounties as the only reasonable way to grind rep.

 

I did 2 full vault runs post hotfix, no scintillant in any of the vaults and none dropped from the 12 necromechs. You keep comparing them to Cetus wisps but it takes a couple minutes to fly around the plains and pickup 4-8. You're forcing us to spend hours doing mobile defense and waiting for the same voicelines to finish to get a chance at acquiring one.

 

[(PSN)Absoluteboxer]

22 minutes ago, Frendh said:

I like the token system and while I think animal hunting took  a lot of time before this update, it was not hard. Now after the update it seems ridiculously easy to get son tokens, considering they are 5 times as valuable for granny tokens. While I enjoy hunting, I still think it should be an alternative way to rank up your syndicate rather than a requirement.

The absolute largest problem is the requirement.  Why can't the resources (tags or whatever) be available in the vaults. Why can't tags and son tokens be available in bounties?

Even at a rare drop rate for them?! 

They are so f*ckn (yes I'm at that point of frustration with the game and company after years of tooting the horn for them and defending this game vs other games like destiny that I'm not apologizing for cursing on this forum it's expression of my ever climbing outrage ) committed to making us do conservation.

Dear DE. Do you remember lunaro. This is worse.

[Clowee]

If you want to encourage people to play in the new open worlds, then don't force them to do the activities that they dislike the most.  Doing this discourages them from playing.  I have not gotten into any of the open worlds now because of the minigames. I don't want to play them, so I don't participate in the content.  All 3 open world releases have added 0 value to the game to me because of this.  You could add 15 open worlds that are 200x bigger for all I care, it's just a waste of space.  I'm really disappointed with the way Warframe has progressed because these major updates are not taking the game in the direction that benefits my interests.

If the activities offered in the open world allowed for several paths, then there would be options and the problem would be solved.  I could run the endless missions the open world offers and enjoy my time while others mine, conserve and fish.  Then we could all enjoy the open world(s) together.

[AreeSoothsayer]

When making a pet, either a Carni or a Vulpe. I have to go and make sure which part is which because niether of the stuff you make to cure them list which it is for and I have made the wrong one for the pet I was going to make. So I had to go get more resources.

I used that stuff later sure but it gets annoying going back and forth because my memory is so poor.

[(PSN)slackblaster23]

Can I get some kind of response to my support ticket, I tried to complete the war within quest after the update now I am stuck in a crash loop and can't get out of the quest. I CAN'T PLAY MY FAVORITE GAME AT ALL!

 

Please help me D.E

[killerJoke66]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)Absoluteboxer said:

The absolute largest problem is the requirement.  Why can't the resources (tags or whatever) be available in the vaults. Why can't tags and son tokens be available in bounties?

Even at a rare drop rate for them?! 

They are so f*ckn (yes I'm at that point of frustration with the game and company after years of tooting the horn for them and defending this game vs other games like destiny that I'm not apologizing for cursing on this forum it's expression of my ever climbing outrage ) committed to making us do conservation.

Dear DE. Do you remember lunaro. This is worse.

my problem is , i dont mind even doing 'that ' amount of specific hunting if it was to craft a pet or something related to that segment , as its directly related and i simply cant complain , but what has xaku(becasue proggression in entrati) or helminth system or entrati syndicate in general has to do with conservation/hunting?

I really cant make sense of it except maybe since we are trying to repair the enrati family bonds within them ( a weird lore but anyway)  . Still , technically , why am i/we suppose to find(already finished the farm i needed but ranting for newbies here) medjay predasite and 5 avic birds and  purple mosquitos .. 

[Lored]

Can someone explain to me?
We use standing and resources to increase rank in Cetus and Fortuna Syndicates.
But to increase rank of Deimos Syndicates, in addition to standing(in the form of Tokens) and resources, we use blueprints purchased(or obtained) from Entrati. What is the point of this slowing down of progression? Doesn't this look like a bribe?

[Tesseract7777]

The Hotfix didn't really help the core issue.

It would actually be better if it was say, 3-5 Son Tokens, but with the improved requirements for how many animals per token. 

Instead, we are forced to get these specific critters:

1x Medjay Predasite

5x Common Avichea

The Medjay was easy enough after spending standing on equipment, second try using pheremones. 

However, the Avichea are a problem. They have common in their name, but they rarely appear normally on the map.

So, spend standing, get the gear, no problem right? Problem is, they seem to only show up in one spot. At first, they did show up in a couple others for me, but since then they have only showed up in the bottom left corner of the map near that artery/beating thing so I don't know if they are supposed to show up in other locations or not. And every single time I use all the proper gear, get to the tranq and locate stage.

And it is always clipped into the heart/rock/wall thing. Every single time. I try everything to get my tranq gun through to it but it doesn't work. It's quite frustrating. It is a progression stopper. I like conservation and I am frustrated. At first I had a little success, but since then it has been bugging out on me and I probably wasted a good two hours of my time trying to get that last one. 

Please fix this bug, but also please consider increasing avichea spawns, they are supposed to be common after all, and perhaps tone down the requirements a tad for those, maybe 3 common avichea would be enough, especially if they are going to be this hard to locate. 

Edit: I like conservation, but DE, don't be afraid to remove it from mandatory requirements. I get it, you spent a lot of time on it and you want people to give it a try. No on wants their work to go to waste. However, a lot of use do like it, and we will make use of it over time. Just please, for love of peace among everyone, can we make it more optional for those who truly despise it? I don't want other players to resent the game because they had to do a game mode I enjoy, but they don't, for a small amount of progression. 

[(PSN)palebluelight]

I'm done. Whoever designed this economy should be fired. I cannot tell you how bad this is looking at this system and how its so convoluted and grindy. I just wanna play warframe not mine frame not farm frame warframe. I literally hate conservation and mining. I'm done I quit. I wanted gameplay in this update a new way to fight not this crap. I wanted fun not work. Uninstalled you lost a real supporter because of this crap.

[Skaleek]

Gonna wait a few weeks while you guys get your S#&$ together. There are some grinds here that are just flat out unreasonable:

1. Scintillant. Nuff said.

2. Necramech Mods. 10% drop off a 6kills/45minute enemy? Ridiculous.

3. Conservation. You created this token paradigm where i should be able to turn my activities into tokens. Except i have 500 vizier tokens and 0 of everything else because of your S#&$ S#&$ty RNG. Its always the same damn thing. I have all these vizier tokens i should be able to convert into son tokens but nope, only rare this or rare that combined. You've tainted every system you put in the game with your bullS#&$ RNG.

Enough already.

[Borg1611]

I was hoping all fishing and mining resources would come from vaults so I'd never have to go mining or fishing again, but it seems like some things aren't potential vault drops (or maybe are super rare). IE: I have zero Thaumica after having done a number of vaults.  

[master_of_destiny]

I'd like to observe that after the update (29.0.4) you haven't really fixed a lot.  The tokens being less miserable for rank up is there...but apparently the scripting to return them is still pending.  I know I haven't seen the rewards yet.

 

Now, let's discuss things with the proper backdrop.  I've seen a lot of people justify a 20+ hour grind, and that's shenanigans.  If people can crucify EA for a 40 hour grind for Darth Vader, then multiple 20+ hour grinds on an open world can most definitely be called out for the crap they are.  Now that we've discussed that little bit, let's talk some more of this out.  

 

1. Helminth segment.  I'm going to express extreme disappointment, but what I really wish is to simply offer a string of profanity.  I understand it not being in the rank up menu...as a mechanic of having it rank locked presumably.  It's another difficulty.  Fine.  I bought the thing....and discovered it's got another 24 hour wait timer on the build.  **** **** ****.  You've locked this thing behind multiple grind walls, such that only MR 29 players who didn't magic out quite a bit of standing in three hours on the first day are only now able to even buy the thing.  Combine that with another stupid timer, and it better be magic.  If it isn't, I don't see it used ever.  It'll get fed and maxed, frames will be mulched, and by October nobody will give a crap because all 40 something frames will be fed to it.
2. Loid.  The rewards suck.  The cost sucks.  We still don't know what the chances are of the scinlillant spawning.  The rank up costs are nutty.  Our reward is to build a mech....and it's not looking to be worth it.  Maybe, just maybe we can get one part of Deimos that would be fun without hours of grind.  
3. Xaku is hidden behind tier 3 standing rewards and scintillant drops.  I have 2 full sets, and haven't even started building it.  More interestingly, the gyro systems are only available once you can visit Little Duck.  This means to get Xaku you need to max out Solaris, complete the Profit-Taker sequence (probably multiple times given the drop chances), and then grind your face off to get scintillant.  I know you want people to spend money, but both Grendel and Xaku are gigantic time investments.  If I was anywhere being a new player it'd be infinitely cheaper to just pay real money and buy them with platinum.  If I didn't, it'd be literal months before I had the chance to earn either.  This is obviously the goal, but feels cheap.
4. Let's talk fish.  On every other planet they don't spawn until you pull out a spear.  They also don't magically despawn in hot areas.  Deimos introduces both of these changes.  It also allows you to jump between map transition points and magically respawn a ton after depleting them (but just standing there doesn't produce new spawns).  I'm guessing that all of this feeds back into the wonky RNG, spawn types in areas, and generation issues.  That said, it distinctly seems like you guys took the previously working system and "fixed" it until broken.
5. Rewards.  Let me express that you seem to have released this thing at about 30% of the reasonable content, tweaked the economy as such, and stretched things out by adding more bits.  The weapons all have their blueprints, and the component prints, and even the insano requirement to get 20  grandmother tokens to buy a shard to build the highest level primary weapon.  This is to say nothing of the Loid syndicate and how much RNG it will be to simply be able to use something that you showed us in the opening cinematic quest.  Why?  Right, you need content for engagement and anything will be acceptable as long as it has engagement times.  That's a bad look.  It would have been better to just have everything locked to rank 3 (for the main faction, 1 for Loid), and stated that there were bits and  pieces that the family was working on, to be included as they become available.  Right now the rank 4 and beyond stuff is insane, because it's denying access to things that in other open worlds were available at rank 2 and sooner.
6. Threads of a system, rather than a tapestry.  The release of Moas was bad.  3 types, 1 bracket, just enough to make you question why to even care.  Now we have 6 infested pets to deal with.  The previews show the same stats.  The descriptions tell us nothing.  The mutations and antigens basically appear to be cosmetics only, and costing on them is surprisingly high (and almost requires fishing after the capture).  If somebody spent literally 10 minutes to change the descriptions to say their precepts and give us a reason that they would justify using 6 slots I'd say that instead of threads, this was threadbare.  Unfortunately, this is Deimos all over.
7. Captures.  OK, no direct standing means they are less rewarding than any other location.  The requirements for multiple tags for just a single token is pretty disheartening given the RNG token costs.  Perfect captures don't matter...unless you guys throw this into Nightwave.  If you do that the only reward will be Nightwave standing.  Now, let's place all of this together even with the economic changes and see why people would want to do an animal capture.... ...... .....   Nope, I can't figure it out.  I can quickly bang out 80+ mother tokens, and that's 8000+ standing.  I can run around and find random animals that may or may not reward tokens if I trade them in.  What I can't do is care about trying to track red-orange animal tracks in the middle of a red-brown world, through surprisingly quick spawning enemies, to get a single animal spawn.  I can easily stumble across packs in the wild, but that's if I care to stop playing warframe and pretend to be Steve Irwin.  I don't see that tag line associated in the game, and it's frustrating that you took a good optional system and made it a worse forced system.  
8. Mining.  It seems like you already have 2 rare minerals.  The problem seems to be the third.  I have more of the two highest standing requirement blue print raw materials than out pink friend.  Maybe it would matter more if there was more content....but right now it's a statistical anomaly.  Heck, I'm just going to skip on the boosters again because this entire week has made it clear you have no idea how to balance stuff at release, and it's going to be a complete ****-show regarding costing.  It's Titanium in Railjack all over again.

 

 

Now that we've discussed the actual economy, let's take a quick, but related, aside.  You have one bad mission on Deimos.  The Corpus researcher mission is possible to get the completion bonus on for tier 1 and 2 bounties easily.  I cannot say about tier 3, because the rewards there are hot garbage so I've done grinding only on 2, 4, and 5.  The problem at the end is you have to collect data samples, but then upload them.  The upload matches the collection number...but the timer for the upload phase is locked no matter how many items need uploading.  This means a team of 1 has 15 creatures to kill, so no problem.  A team of 4 requires 25 kills, and often 25 enemies haven't even spawned before the timer goes.  This is a discussion of economy, as these runs basically prevent getting mother tokens and a second reward at the end.  It needs to be fixed.  

Likewise the assist the grineer with kills, and double them, seems buggy.  The spawn pods seem to not count, but the grineer get to run around with wraiths simply spraying and praying.  While the mission is infinitely more reasonable in a group, it's also impossible to stop grineer from ganking kills and seeing enemies you cannot through the mess of the terrain.  Maybe instead of wraiths give them stugs.  It would be more appropriate to have these Nox like grineer trying to poison them rather than flamer crews acting like the worst of out fellow players by simply winning through blinding everyone else in close proximity.

 

In short, this is a release that needed another month to bake and the economy seems stretched to try and make that poor reward pool look like genuine content.  It's not fun yet, and continues to look worse daily as the grind deepens without any actual new stuff in my inventory to use elsewhere.  Maybe it'll get better, but our introduction to mechs indicates otherwise.  They look like starting over with a basic archwing, circa release when no mods were defined.  When we had no weapons choices.  That's a bitter pill to swallow, and confirms no lessons were learned after almost a decade of this game.

[(PSN)NattoKilla]

So I did some conservation, the activity itself is actually not that bad but in regards to syndicates again there is problems:

1) You make us require 5 Avichea tags for rank up which is all well and good except the spawn on these things are near non-existent, cambion drift is full of Vizier Predasites and those little critters. I decided to do a sweep and do all the animal tracks and I ended up with a whopping 3 tags since I couldn't find any roamers, insanity.

2) After roaming Cambion drift and reloading the map multiple times I'm very much sure you'll have to use the animal tracks/echo lure system to capture a Medjay (I was fortunate to get one first try with the bait), which still means players are still forced to do conservation if they don't want too, well to be quite frank thanks to the way Avichea are at the moment you'll be spending quite a bit of time anyway. Might wanna sort that one out.

3) What's with every extra type of capture rewarding the same amount of tags? I only realised this once I perfect captured a Medjay Predasite and Crescent Vulpaphya that you still get the same amount of tags as bad captures.

Going back to my previous post why do you have to make these activities such a chore if you want us to do them, I actually found the process interesting but that dissipated after 30mins of frustration. 

Reward more tags for perfect captures to speed up the process thank you very much. Stop being so cautious and be more generous with rewarding your playerbase.

 

 

[Aldain]

OK I've had a bit more of a chance to bite into the farming and reward loop and I have to say that the sentiments about Conservation are pretty much correct.

There isn't enough variety in the roaming spawns to get any consistent progress, I only caught 2 burrowers, the rest of the mess I caught were Predecites and Velocipods (which spawned in groups of three). There's too many variables for this to be a viable way to exchange things for tokens, the multiple different breeds worked on Fortuna precisely because they weren't required for progress and only gave standing, here the variety works against the player due to the excessive spread just to get a few tokens.

Also the birds, you'd think after the Sawgaw debacle we wouldn't see issues like these but here they are again, nigh impossible to find because they FLY OUTSIDE OF THE RIFLE'S DETECTION RADIUS. The Tranq Rifle also does a poor job of properly marking things at a distance, the blinking can be so far away that it can blend in to the other graphics and the targets themselves are often too small to notice easily.

DE I like the concept of Conservation, but you're overthinking things and making them too complex to actually be fun, there are too many variables to account for and that is the problem at hand.

As for mining and fishing outputs, they currently turn over less than their comparatives in PoE and Fortuna for fish donations, you get less standing on average from the tokens you get selling parts than you would on the other open worlds just for trading in a large stack of fish. Mining trade ins have seemingly always have had jewels even for single trades, which makes no sense because the bundles often only need a bit more of the jewels to get 2-5 times the output of a single trade.

Currently the economy lacks the equity of the other 2 open worlds, while the appeal of being able to gather more tokens than the standing cap per day might look good on paper, the numbers don't add up in the long haul, the standing per-token doesn't match up well and it seems to make more sense just to run bounties for Mother tokens than to bother with other factions outside of rank up requirements or materials for such things.

The only token selection that is equitable to the time spent and shouldn't be changed any further is Father, who now that the "Cetus Wisp" materials have been axed from the token trades is now equitable for the time/resources spent.

[(PSN)LordEthos]

The token system is horribly tedious. Conservation is easily the least exciting thing to come out of the open world grind. Locking the hemilinth behind it twice is awful. Conservation is even worse when you consider the fact that you can and probably will be attacked during the hunt and the prey will be alerted, ruining a perfect capture, or even worse escape entirely while players are trying to not get killed.

[(PSN)Tandoori_Goblin]

Not sure if it's a bug but on PS4 no Deimos gems or fish are tradable, unlike the ones for the other open worlds. Not sure why that is the case.

[(NSW)H2amster]

whats the point of doing perfect captures when doing conservation? in other open worlds they give more standings to that rep. but i feel like this doesn't make sense when doing it here and its muuuuuuuuch less standings 😞

[_Blackeye_]

I have one big problem with the economy at this point:

I'm forced to do things I don't want to do... One of those is conservation and/or having to calculate how much fish parts / ores I have to retain and how much I need to exchange for tokens in order to be able to rank up. I get that you guys want a different system than the regular standing reward (and it's good cause now we can stock up on tokens like we did with the quills and little duck) but being forced to do things in order to be able to rank up makes me NOT wanting to complete a part of warframe for the first time in almost 8 years...

Have us trade parts, gems, fish, .... to be able to rank up, but the obligatory tokens are a bad idea.

[(PSN)ConstanceKu3ffer]

How did DE not find any flaws with this, either they are purposely trying to make people angry or they genuinely thought people wanted to fish and capture animals

[Celetille]

You only need ONE of each type of token as a rank up sacrifice since the hotfix that changed this. I appreciate all the different activities to do within the world and I don't mind the token system at all. I've been stocking up on every type except daughter tokens due to the buggy fish spawns: where the fish despawn when you pull out your spear. Father and Mother tokens are braindead easy to acquire. Son tokens can be easily earned by flying around the Cambion Drift in Archwing for half an hour, it's not a big deal at all.

Everyone is complaining about being forced to do activities they don't like to rank up. It's been like this since the Plains of Eidolon: Ostron standing requires ores, gems, and world materials to rank up as well. These open world zones are here to be more than just shooting and looting. There's a whole star chart of that. DE spent a long time developing these systems and I don't think it's too much to have the player at least dip their toes into the new systems to rank up. If you're threatening to quit playing the game forever because you have to partake in mining, a system that's been part of the game for 3 years and is required to gain access to a variety of weapons, then you're beyond help.

All that said, I do think certain aspects of the economy are lacking: namely the rewards from the Necraloid syndicate. I'm getting the impression from the fact that it caps at level 3 that it is not intended to be a massive syndicate like The Quills or Vox Solaris, but I have enough items to turn in 200,000 reputation with this syndicate on the third day of play, and there's only 26,000 rep worth of items to actually buy (all of them only needing to be purchased once and 2 being free from rank-up rewards). The captura scene adds another 70,000 cost if you're interested in that. From an economy standpoint: why is rep so available yet the syndicate cap and rewards are so limited? Might as well just give it to us if it's this easy to do.

[Mephane]

Everyone hates how Eidolons are time gated, how you need to rush when the night starts and don't even need to bother if there is a risk of daybreak before the mission is over.

Yet here we go again with the vauts. Stop it, DE.

Remove the time gating and let us play them without having to watch the Vome/Fass cycle and often times the sheer waiting for the next cycle to begin.

[Morthal]

19 minutes ago, Celetille said:

These open world zones are here to be more than just shooting and looting. There's a whole star chart of that.

Shooting and looting conservation animals and fishing, wow that's innovation. You're right though, it's old news, not new content and is exactly why the same 5 missions types on the starchart are sleep inducing.
Right now the only new 'content' is locked behind ludicrous timegates and rng ( again, nothing new here--which is a problem ). Most of us who've spent close to 5k hours play testing this beta, were looking forward to some fun with customization, not more of the same old DE 'I can't believe it's not a mobile app' shenanigans. I'll gladly pick up items from the overworld, even mine and fish a little but pretend it's Pokemon, I shall not. 

[SarnathFalls]

While the cycle on the surface is fine, there is no reason why this should be tied to the vaults. This isn't even a case of rewarding skill, as the vaults are primarily timed missions and can't be sped up. Just disconnect the isolation vaults from the daily cycle. In addition, make a bounty for all three so people can queue for that for matchmaking with other players.