We could use some further explanation on the Ophelia "fix"

[Hayrack]

Game breaking bugs in 3... 2... 1...

[Drachnyn]

This looks like a thread that belongs in feedback instead of GD.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb saghzs:

Not sure what that has to do with my point, but sure.. whatever.

Also thats really hard to read in dark mode btw.

Dont even respond to that person, they made missing the point into an art form.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

6 hours ago, nslay said:

Still waiting for them to fix Octavia and Isolation Vaults.

I mean... Try it! It really is surprising! Aside of gathering the Vome and Fass residue, you can literally just not shoot/melee anything from bait station, to toxic caves, to Necramechs. It doesn't matter if it's T1 or T3. You can literally get away with not doing anything aside of some foot work, pressing crouch and reactivating abilities. Surely this is not intended? Because if it is... I would consider this a contradiction to their zero tolerance stance on AFK farming. I mean, the game is basically playing itself in Isolation Vaults with Octavia.

Leave Octavia alone. When I have arm pain that goes from my wrist to my arm, chill frames like Octavia allow me to play without being in significant pain. Same with Khora. I don't AFK. I sit and play, and chill frames get me through sessions by reducing my pain compared to other frames and playstyles. 

 

[ShortCat]

1 hour ago, saghzs said:

Heavily disagree, khora isnt the only frame that can kill fast, through walls.

Care to explain how the existance of equally bad or worse designs justifies another bad design?

 

1 hour ago, saghzs said:

I think the real problem is in the spawn algorythm.

Both are.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

1 hour ago, (PS4)DoctorWho_90250 said:

Leave Octavia alone. When I have arm pain that goes from my wrist to my arm, chill frames like Octavia allow me to play without being in significant pain. Same with Khora. I don't AFK. I sit and play, and chill frames get me through sessions by reducing my pain compared to other frames and playstyles. 

 

That’s awesome and all but she’s so blatantly OP that you should probably keep your head on a swivel. But if she remains as unpopular as she is they might leave her alone.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

9 hours ago, saghzs said:

Edit: Since people apparently can't read properly, I'll put it in bold text:

I am aware that DE has every right to change whatever they want, this is not a post trying to ask for a undo.
I just want an explanation as for why the patchnotes and the actual changes don't line up.

 

You are never going to get the explanation you seek for reasons explained by several others in the thread. 

9 hours ago, saghzs said:

 

 

 

 

 

First off, I am very aware that AFK farming is not exactly intended, and i fully understand DE patching out certain spots/methods that dominate everything else.

But i believe there are better ways to do it than we got with the Hotfix 29.2.1
Here is what the patchnotes say about it.

• Fixed a spot in the Grineer Sealab tileset where enemies struggled to jump down a hole as a team, which resulted in AFK farming.

This is not at all what actually got put in the game with the hotfix.
Enemies now simply have their AI disabled as soon as you jump down in to that spot, which makes it so they don't come near you at all.
You can see this very clearly in the video:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

In addition to that, Enemies start rapidly despawning and respawning, which.. who knows, may cause some other issues.
As shown clearly in this video:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

All I am asking is some more transparency.

Is this the way you intended for the fix to work, or is there something wrong with it?

If yes, why hide it behind a completly wrong description in the patchnotes?

 

And maybe also give us an update on your current stance of AFK farming, since it has been and will continue to be a major part of the game.

I just really have to ask, why does any of this matter if you just don’t jump in the hole? I can tell you this has never, not even once, affected my gameplay experience before or after the fix, because I just don’t jump in the hole.

Don’t jump in the hole. Words to live by.

[Drachnyn]

vor 57 Minuten schrieb ShortCat:

Care to explain how the existance of equally bad or worse designs justifies another bad design?

DE does not put a lot of thought into how maps are played, the big focus is just on how it looks. The new corpus ship defense makes that very clear. Abilities going through walls ensures that those frames are playable regardless of the tileset.

In addition, the grineer are essentially just fodder enemies. None of them really bring something interesting to the table, they have their basic attacks and that's about it. Survival is a deeply flawed game mode because of how simple it is. Compare that to disruption, there fodder clearing is not nearly as important but also not useless.

[ShortCat]

21 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

-snip-

While I agree that tilesets, especially the reworked ones, are more about visuals than functionality as well as enemy design is lacking engaging interactions; I still fail to see how mashing #1 and effortlessly killing everything in a 20m radius is justified by any of the above problems.  

I would even go so far and say, new Corpus defense map is designed like a maze from Inception because players are allowed to semi-AFK with overtuend abilities. This is a vicious cycle where one problem feeds the other. 

[kwlingo]

10 hours ago, saghzs said:

• Fixed a spot in the Grineer Sealab tileset where enemies struggled to jump down a hole as a team, which resulted in AFK farming.

This is not at all what actually got put in the game with the hotfix.
Enemies now simply have their AI disabled as soon as you jump down in to that spot, which makes it so they don't come near you at all.
You can see this very clearly in the video:

Well either this or DE nerf Khora? Which is better?

You can blame all the macro users who set the game on while the went to sleep. If DE decides to nerf Khora, Im sure we will see Saryn right after and so many other nuke frames.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

This looks like a thread that belongs in feedback instead of GD.

Dont even respond to that person, they made missing the point into an art form.

A valid point first has to be made, to miss it. 

 

[saghzs]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face said:

I just really have to ask, why does any of this matter if you just don’t jump in the hole? I can tell you this has never, not even once, affected my gameplay experience before or after the fix, because I just don’t jump in the hole.

Don’t jump in the hole. Words to live by.

It matters not because this one specific instance is actively hurting normal players or something.

It matters because it very clearly shows that DE puts out fixes and other stuff with no actual thought put behind it. Just take the limbo changes from scarlet spear as an example, or the marked for death changes.

 

If DE wants to keep being looked at as one of the most open developers, actively engaged in the community, they have to be truthful and explain their decisions. Even if those decisions are something not everyone might agree with.

[Oorel]

Yall a bunch of weirdos in here. You don't need to simp for DE, they are big boys.

This is similar to the Xoris patch-notes actually, though this is more obviously wrong. I don't expect the general player-base to really care about this at all, and I don't think a huge number of players actually did this farm manually as well, so I think a lot of people just don't have the full context to judge the statement they made here;

"Fixed a spot in the Grineer Sealab tileset where enemies struggled to jump down a hole as a team, which resulted in AFK farming."

The enemies had no problem getting down into the hole, so I don't know what they are talking about. Right now it seems like the AI is just disabled once a player steps down there, wouldn't call that 'fixing' anything.

I agree that it would be nice to know what they actually did, there are some odd behaviors in the enemy AI in some survival missions right now. Times when they don't respond to Speedvas even. Its hard to piece it together.

[Kainosh]

Man....a simple electrified puddle or even a gas cloud with continuous toxin damage would do the trick just fine.... 

[Dr_Wonderful]

Personally if riven prices are still above 1k for the best riven, I don't think enough people were doing afk farming. DE made a lot of mistakes in the game in the last 2 years, and the game probably won't ever die but it I don't think it will grow either. Either make grind fun or active play fun, warframe is in this weird state where DE doesn't know what to do.

A bunch of players in these comments are supporting DE for doing this because they are jealous that the people using the macro are farming resources better than them.

But little did they know it made rivens cheaper and other people they don't know afking, does not effect their own experience of playing the game.

AFK farming used to be pretty fun with banshee, i miss the old days.

 

[Tesseract7777]

On 2020-10-08 at 11:03 AM, Dr_Wonderful said:

Personally if riven prices are still above 1k for the best riven, I don't think enough people were doing afk farming. DE made a lot of mistakes in the game in the last 2 years, and the game probably won't ever die but it I don't think it will grow either. Either make grind fun or active play fun, warframe is in this weird state where DE doesn't know what to do.

A bunch of players in these comments are supporting DE for doing this because they are jealous that the people using the macro are farming resources better than them.

But little did they know it made rivens cheaper and other people they don't know afking, does not effect their own experience of playing the game.

AFK farming used to be pretty fun with banshee, i miss the old days.

 

Well, for me personally I don't care if people afk farm, don't care if they get away with it forever, wouldn't report something if I knew about it. 

But I do think people should know who the dictator of this game is and that he will stomp all over your spot if he finds out about it. And thus be prepared for and accept that any afk style farming spot is going to regularly change in terms of the best one, because Steve will ask the team to smash up the current loot cave. He has a history of this. 

The fact is, I would take a strong stand against afk farming, except, I don't care if people do because DE's own design has unfortunately put them in this mess. They say they are strongly against afk farming or afk style farming, and yet... so many of their frames and combos are designed in a way that can make it work, and it would take fundamental core changes to the game, that they seem unwilling to make, to truly stop stuff like that from happening. With all the abilities, and even more combos now with helminth, with all the bajillion different tiles now and all the different areas in them, with all the weapons and arcanes and tricks people have... they cannot get rid of it all without making fundamental changes to the entire way the game is played, probably changes big enough to scare off a huge portion of players during the "adjustment period". 

In other words, I accept that afk farming will always be a part of the game because of DE's flawed design, but I think afk farmers should also accept it and take it in stride when DE smashes up the latest loot cave.

 

[Petersheikah]

The problem with this fix is that it is a global change to AI, not a fix isolated to Ophelia. Enemies will act differently if you throw down certain abilities (with "campy" abilities such as Vortex or Flechette it's really noticeable), they will start to take cover in Survival and ESO even if they usually don't, they seem to be aware of the range of your abilities and will start fleeing or standing right outside of the AoE. 

It's so incredibly noticeable on Vauban that I have resorted to infusing Pull on him just to get enemies close enough to Vortex. It's that bad

I'm honestly really disappointed in how they fixed it. The whole camping thing started because of how ridiculous the grind was and how it was dependant on eximus kills, rather than fixing the core problem which is the acquisition of Steel Essence they mess up with AI to prevent farming

[saghzs]

Nothing in the Devstream about this, unfortunate.

Really hope that we get some kind of explanation for this sometime soon.

[OmegaVoid]

On 2020-10-08 at 9:07 PM, Petersheikah said:

they will start to take cover in Survival and ESO even if they usually don't, they seem to be aware of the range of your abilities and will start fleeing or standing right outside of the AoE. 

Sounds like smart behaviour on the part of the enemies. I mean if a dozen or so of your comrades just marched through a doorway and instantly died, even Grineer should figure they shouldn't walk through that doorway. Better to lie in wait outside 'til the Tenno skoom think the coast is clear, and ambush them when they emerge...

Haven't people been asking for smarter AI for ages?

[Oorel]

9 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

Sounds like smart behaviour on the part of the enemies. I mean if a dozen or so of your comrades just marched through a doorway and instantly died, even Grineer should figure they shouldn't walk through that doorway. Better to lie in wait outside 'til the Tenno skoom think the coast is clear, and ambush them when they emerge...

Haven't people been asking for smarter AI for ages?

Warframe is essentially a Musou, people who want smarter AI are wrong.

[lnfine]

В 09.10.2020 в 01:07, Petersheikah сказал:

The problem with this fix is that it is a global change to AI, not a fix isolated to Ophelia. Enemies will act differently if you throw down certain abilities (with "campy" abilities such as Vortex or Flechette it's really noticeable), they will start to take cover in Survival and ESO even if they usually don't, they seem to be aware of the range of your abilities and will start fleeing or standing right outside of the AoE.

I think AI sometimes just shuts down almost completely. After the Ophelia "fix" I had games (on completely different tilesets mid you) where enemies would simply stop moving and reacting to player presence.

The worst case was arbitration Europa defense where the whole team had to literally drag infested out of their spawn points for a couple of rounds.

And yes, we were "camping" the central point where cryopod usually spawns.

[saghzs]

3 hours ago, lnfine said:

The worst case was arbitration Europa defense where the whole team had to literally drag infested out of their spawn points for a couple of rounds.

If you could get a video of that, that would be amazing.

Could make it in to a bug report, and maybe actually get something done about this.

[lnfine]

1 час назад, saghzs сказал:

If you could get a video of that, that would be amazing.

Could make it in to a bug report, and maybe actually get something done about this.

Unfortunately I play on a laptop so don't have a habit of recording gaming sessions. Might try doing though.

[Aesthier]

I really would like to see the definition of AFK DE is using because as far as I was aware AFK means "away" from keyboard.

 

I agree that simply getting rid of the hole in the floor would have been a much better solution than messing with the AI.  What I have a problem with is DE's use of terminology in a very loose manner.

Were players exploiting the fact that Khora's web (or other warframe abilities) has clipping issues? Absolutely! But that is not the same as being able to endlessly farm while you are not at the keyboard.

Is it lazy play? Yes! Is it really AFK play? No absolutely not as actions still need to be input by the player no matter how lazy they may seem.

This same lackadaisical use of terminology is what muddies the water when explaining corrective actions taken by DE and filters down and gets reflected back from the community when they make suggestions.

At any rate I just feel that DE should call stuff what it is instead of misleading us by using terminology that doesn't fit the situation. Not doing so just muddies the waters.

[deothor]

On 2020-10-08 at 12:03 PM, Dr_Wonderful said:

warframe is in this weird state where DE doesn't know what to do.

Theu may not know what to do, but they sure know to ignore player feedback, cause they know better!

[Leqesai]

On 2020-10-06 at 8:31 PM, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

It's really not that complicated.....you farm by playing normally and patrolling a small area.

Find a room, not a cubby hole....a hallway or something. 

You guys knew exactly what you were doing... why play dumb?