Dev Workshop: Corpus Proxima & The New Railjack

[smashedwookie]

I can live with having to forma the plexus, but only if each forma would give the slot an universal polarity. This would make it so it goes back to allowing full customisation like we currently have. As it stand having to use the normal polarity could be very limiting considering that we only have 1 plexus.

 I would also like to see someone who as a bit more time than me (at work atm) do the math to see how the current meta avionic cost would end up after the patch by doing following maths

 List max capacity and used capacity

•  List battle avionic with cost then subract from used pool as those become free from what was shown in the vid
• List tactical avionic with cost then subract from used pool as those become free from what was shown in the vid
• List any health/shield/armor avionic with cost then subract from used pool as those stats will be on the hull

 

List total cost of avionics left  to see how far from a level max plexus capacity we are before forma, assuming it to be 60+aura mod.

While this wont be accurate since cost could change it will give an idea instead of just seeing complain. We also have the 3 base polarity that should help but hard to tell as we don’t see all the mods in the vid.

[MardiuZ]

This.. Is horrible. This is how a interesting game mode dies.  Call me an idiot if you for some odd reason wish to do so but those changes (in my opinion) waters down one of the few truly unique game modes that was still left, and it makes me a bit sad. I mean heck. Just take a look on the simple fact that that Health and shields mods will no longer be "directly applied" for ships .. That.. Well. I very much doubt i am the only one who finds that to be idiotic. I know this rant wont change things.. But surely i am not alone in  my distaste regarding those Downgrades, ehh .. I mean .. "Changes for the better".

[Roland_Snow]

35 minutes ago, smashedwookie said:

I can live with having to forma the plexus, but only if each forma would give the slot an universal polarity. This would make it so it goes back to allowing full customisation like we currently have. As it stand having to use the normal polarity could be very limiting considering that we only have 1 plexus.

 I would also like to see someone who as a bit more time than me (at work atm) do the math to see how the current meta avionic cost would end up after the patch by doing following maths

 List max capacity and used capacity

•  List battle avionic with cost then subract from used pool as those become free from what was shown in the vid
• List tactical avionic with cost then subract from used pool as those become free from what was shown in the vid
• List any health/shield/armor avionic with cost then subract from used pool as those stats will be on the hull

 

List total cost of avionics left  to see how far from a level max plexus capacity we are before forma, assuming it to be 60+aura mod.

While this wont be accurate since cost could change it will give an idea instead of just seeing complain. We also have the 3 base polarity that should help but hard to tell as we don’t see all the mods in the vid.

I did some of the math so here is a plain text quote from before:

Quick math:
As an MR 30 (or just a maxed plexus) the plexus will start with 60 capacity for me. Next, the highest shown capacity cost mods are Conic Nozzle at 12 for Vazarin, Hyper Strike at 12 for Madurai, and Hyperflux at 16 for Naramon. Assuming I put my most capacity intensive avionics mods in the 3 starting polarities I will essentially have a max of 80 (60 reactor boosted with 20 from the half-cost reductions) effective starting capacity before the aura slot. Also assuming the auras follow the standard 7 extra capacity that gives me 87 to start with and 94 if the aura is the proper polarity, but that would require an aura forma and base plexus does not seem to have an assigned polarity for that slot.
With my current RJ reactor I have about 100 capacity for avionics (utmost max of 130), I used Vidar for more flux capacity. Considering all that I am only 11 behind for what I choose to use and 41 for min-maxed capacity without any extra investment. And going by Rebb's initial video the battle and tactical avionics no longer take any capacity to use.
All told we are probably on par for starting capacity than we can get with a maxed build in current RJ. I thought the plexus would be a huge grind to bring myself back to current capacity, but it is really close to T3 Vidar territory. What initially sounded like a slog to recover is actually really close to current power level and even a straight up buff for newer players.

For tactical avionics the highest capacity drain they could take is 33 (Flor Burn at 13 with two of Battle Stations, Death Blossom, Form Up, Intruder Stasis, Squad Renewal, and Void Cloak all at 10)
For battle avionics the highest capacity drain they could take is 8 for Defense (Blackout Pulse), 8 for Offense (all), and 10 for Super (all again) for a total of 26.
All told the non-integrated avionics can take up to 59 capacity.

Now, using the 87 starting capacity (assuming aura slot is not polarized) versus 130 current max capacity for Mk III Vidar reactor we have a difference of 43 for non-integrated avionics. Since max capacity for those avionics is 59, that means a starting plexus without any forma has 16 more maximum effective capacity than the current avionics grid.
And that is for starting plexus compared to a min-maxed avionics capacity sacrificing flux capacity in the process.

After doing the math with all currently available sources the plexus may seem like a nerf to capacity but is actually a slight buff for endgame railjacks (+16 max effective capacity) and a massive one for newer railjacks (+116 max effective capacity using base sigma).

[Rebore]

If this does not get fixed it is an instant flop and my day is ruined. jk

 

@[DE]Rebecca For all that is holy is the bug to when you invite someone to your dojo to trade and they load into your railjack and then you can not trade with them till they exit it and when they do, to them you are registered as an MR0 player to which any main BP they can no trade you for it. Say you are buying a volt set you invite them they load into the RJ then they exit the RJ and you trade them but they can not put in the main bp for volt just his sys chas and neu because you are registered as a MR0 for them. It works vice versa as well, you load into someone's dojo and spawn in their RJ and you will see them as MR0 and then can not trade them any item's main BP.

 

Been a bug since RJ came out. Seems fitting to finally fix it now.

 

I'm not asking for raids back here or for cross-save/cross-play, just a bug fix. Have posted a bug report on it already and many others have as well so wondering how such an annoying huge bug in a core part of the game (trading) has not been fixed it and hope it does here. If not I will perish in pain.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

2 minutes ago, MardiuZ said:

This.. Is horrible. This is how a interesting game mode dies.  Call me an idiot if you for some odd reason wish to do so but those changes (in my opinion) waters down one of the few truly unique game modes that was still left, and it makes me a bit sad. I mean heck. Just take a look on the simple fact that that Health and shields mods will no longer be "directly applied" for ships .. That.. Well. I very much doubt i am the only one who finds that to be idiotic. I know this rant wont change things.. But surely i am not alone in  my distaste regarding those Downgrades, ehh .. I mean .. "Changes for the better".

For every change except one I'm still saying "wait and see" because we don't know exactly how things like heath and shields will turn out with the removal of avioncs and the rebalancing that happens there.  I think a lot of these things will turn out okay.

The added grind to get back to where you already are with the Plexus system is the only change we can see right now and know for certain how it works.  It's Forma, and Forma and polarities suck, imo.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

Just now, Roland_Snow said:

but it is really close to T3 Vidar territory.

Only with the assumptions you've made about mod cost, and only if the polarities provided match avionics you actually plan on using.

[Roland_Snow]

5 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Only with the assumptions you've made about mod cost, and only if the polarities provided match avionics you actually plan on using.

True, I'll correct my assumptions on both posts using the provided info in the video. I will use the three polarities shown and what we can see to be the highest capacity costs for each of those polarities.
My bad for just assuming 10 capacity for those, sorry about that. It is definitely the weakest point in my math there.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

Just now, Roland_Snow said:

True, I'll correct my assumptions on both posts using the provided info in the video. I will use the three polarities shown and what we can see to be the highest capacity costs for each of those polarities.
My bad for just assuming 10 capacity for those, sorry about that. It is definitely the weakest point in my math there.

One of the other issues is that all those mod costs are subject to change.  It's impossible to know right now if the polarities provided plus an aura (which is also grind that has to be done to get back to where we currently are in terms of avioncs, by your own math.) will be enough for whatever the mods end up costing.

And none of that negates the fact that even if, and that's a big if, the provided polarities plus the aura we'll need to grind for will be enough to put on the same mods we have now with no extra forma, the polarity system to include the provided polarities, limits modularity which was not an issue with the previous system.

No amount of math makes this a good change.

[Roland_Snow]

22 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

One of the other issues is that all those mod costs are subject to change.  It's impossible to know right now if the polarities provided plus an aura (which is also grind that has to be done to get back to where we currently are in terms of avioncs, by your own math.) will be enough for whatever the mods end up costing.

And none of that negates the fact that even if, and that's a big if, the provided polarities plus the aura we'll need to grind for will be enough to put on the same mods we have now with no extra forma, the polarity system to include the provided polarities, limits modularity which was not an issue with the previous system.

No amount of math makes this a good change.

Also, true. Removing aura slot from calculations brings benefits from +11 at min-max for avionics capacity to +4 at MK III Vidar and +104 when just starting out with a base sigma reactor.
Plus as mentioned below using universal polarities for the plexus would be a better alternative, even if just for the three starting polarities:
 

57 minutes ago, CuChulainnWD said:

Has DE considered allowing the ability for Regular Forma spent on Rail Jack Plexus to behave like an AURA FPORMA making each slot multi polarity optional? This would allow for and retain build diversity and variety. It can be very annoying to be locked into certain builds (Even with a generous mod cap) when you have a fully formaed Plexus.  This way everybody wins, players and DE alike with forma sales.

Still not a strict upgrade to current avionics grid but I am just trying to provide as much information as possible to those in this workshop forum.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

Just now, Roland_Snow said:

Plus as mentioned below using universal polarities for the plexus would be a better alternative, even if just for the three starting polarities:

They should have kept the avionics grid and just used it for the Plexus system.  I'm completely onboard with at least waiting to see the other changes when they launch instead of speculating about them now, so I have no idea if I'll like the Plexus system or not and I'm not even mad about the combat avionics rebalancing because the enemy fighters aren't crazy unbalanced like they can be in regular missions.  But there was absolutely zero reason to not just use the current avionics grid system for the Plexus.  The avioncs grid wasn't hard to figure out in the slightest.  It was a better, more modular system than the polarity system we have for mods.  It was far more player friendly in terms of cost/time/grind. 

Whoever caused the switch from a good, functional system to a tedious, non-modular, outdated garbage heap like the current modding system is either extremely misguided or wants to sell forma.

[CuChulainnWD]

8 minutes ago, Roland_Snow said:

Also, true. Removing aura slot from calculations brings benefits from +11 at min-max for avionics capacity to +2 at MK III Vidar and +102 when just starting out with a base sigma reactor.
Plus as mentioned below using universal polarities for the plexus would be a better alternative, even if just for the three starting polarities:
 

Still not a strict upgrade to current avionics grid but I am just trying to provide as much information as possible to those in this workshop forum.

Agreed. We do know that once DE gets an idea into their heads it can be difficult to get them to change course. I am trying to work within the system they are hell bent for leather going down, to have a modicum of what we liked about the old system. (Compromise)

[Roland_Snow]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

They should have kept the avionics grid and just used it for the Plexus system.  I'm completely onboard with at least waiting to see the other changes when they launch instead of speculating about them now, so I have no idea if I'll like the Plexus system or not and I'm not even mad about the combat avionics rebalancing because the enemy fighters aren't crazy unbalanced like they can be in regular missions.  But there was absolutely zero reason to not just use the current avionics grid system for the Plexus.  The avioncs grid wasn't hard to figure out in the slightest.  It was a better, more modular system than the polarity system we have for mods.  It was far more player friendly in terms of cost/time/grind. 

Totally agree, what we currently have is far better, even from a UI perspective. No idea (other than forma sales) why it is being changed to the standard modding screen.

[CyberneticSusurrus]

11 minutes ago, Roland_Snow said:

Totally agree, what we currently have is far better, even from a UI perspective. No idea (other than forma sales) why it is being changed to the standard modding screen.

Absolutely agreed. 

I said earlier in the thread that I would much rather see Forma and Polarities scrapped in favour of making the Grid system universal.
It is so much more open, so much less irritating, and it promotes far greater build diversity and adaptability. It does not compel someone to construct a gilded cage of Polarities that restricts as much as it amplifies.

One major concern here is that unlike the current systems which use Modding, we only get 1 Railjack and presumably 1 Plexus.
So you cannot simply build a second one if you want a completely different build.
(Not that I want to have to manage multiple Railjacks/Plexuses either, please no-one take that as the solution here.)

I'm tired of having to regrind everything I apply Forma to, and I'm tired of having to figure out which polarities aren't going to backfire.
I want to play the actual game, and the Grid/Avionics system is perfect for that; at any given time I could partially or completely reorganise my build to try something different, with no penalties.

[LSG501]

So not only will we likely need more endo than we'll receive we'll also likely need need to waste forma on the plexus...

The change to the plexus setup just gets better and better the more we hear about it 🙄

 

And yay...lets nerf some railjack abilities while we're at it...

 

[Althaline]

27 minutes ago, CyberneticSusurrus said:

(Not that I want to have to manage multiple Railjacks/Plexuses either, please no-one take that as the solution here.)

Never fear! In about 5 months, they'll let you build another Plexus for some ridiculous cost and say that they've finally given the players what they asked for.

The worst part is, they'll be praised for it, too.

[Old_Fogie]

So, color me curious here. A massive content change that's at least 50+ pages of negative feedback from the community, and the PTB's can't be bothered to toss it on the test server to see if anything may be a potential oopsy? Huh, how odd /s.

[Renseishin]

2 hours ago, CyberneticSusurrus said:

Absolutely agreed. 

I said earlier in the thread that I would much rather see Forma and Polarities scrapped in favour of making the Grid system universal.
It is so much more open, so much less irritating, and it promotes far greater build diversity and adaptability. It does not compel someone to construct a gilded cage of Polarities that restricts as much as it amplifies.

One major concern here is that unlike the current systems which use Modding, we only get 1 Railjack and presumably 1 Plexus.
So you cannot simply build a second one if you want a completely different build.
(Not that I want to have to manage multiple Railjacks/Plexuses either, please no-one take that as the solution here.)

I'm tired of having to regrind everything I apply Forma to, and I'm tired of having to figure out which polarities aren't going to backfire.
I want to play the actual game, and the Grid/Avionics system is perfect for that; at any given time I could partially or completely reorganise my build to try something different, with no penalties.

This.

I'm not a veteran yet but not a new player either, and the more forma I put into my stuff the more I realize how much of a double edged sword it is. I perfectly see the intent (risk / reward) and I actually like it to an extent because I have to make a semi-permanent commitment and think hard about it, or else it's either paying the price of another forma or another copy of the item. On the other hand I'm not free to even try other high end builds on the same item, which kind of defeats the point of mods. It's, like, respec'ing a build but having to relevel it again / creating a new character.

Having this philosophy applied to a unique item that is the Plexus doesn't appeal to me at all. If, say, next year DE releases mods with Umbra polarity for the Plexus and mine is full of forma, I'm going to be pissed.

I really enjoyed the grid upgrade system as a different direction for upgrading items and was secretly hoping that this experiment would one day, somehow, make its way into "Core Warframe"; although it does scrap the polarity system which has all things considered more appeal than just "put x points into this to upgrade".

How about the best of both worlds:

a) Keep the polarity system. Apply a forma, choose a polarity, commit, and choose if I want to apply it to config A, B, C, or all of them (kinda like subsumed abilities, commit to an extent, but don't screw up potential future builds).

b) Mix the grid upgrade system in: forma can add a 'non-polarity' that actually switches the mod slot to an upgradable one. From this point on Endo can be used to upgrade it so any mod slotted into it has up to -3 drain. (Or just make all unpolarized slots upgradable by default.)

 

I also add my voice on the Flux vs Warframe Energy debate: I do not want to see Flux Energy go. Make it individual if it has to, but using Warframe Energy to power a Railjack doesn't make a lot of sense both from a lore perspective (how were Old War pilots powering their Railjack? Not all of them were Warframes) and gameplay perspective (Energizing Dash etc., Lavos cooldown, and what about Operators, Energy refilled in 5 seconds? Good luck balancing that.)

[Viggolina]

Lul, grinded Railjack a bit before they updated the reward criteria and before I was eligible for the tier 3 rewards. Now I dont even qualify for tier 1 and can't reach tier 3 in any realistic manner. Sweet. 

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

42 minutes ago, Viggolina said:

Lul, grinded Railjack a bit before they updated the reward criteria and before I was eligible for the tier 3 rewards. Now I dont even qualify for tier 1 and can't reach tier 3 in any realistic manner. Sweet. 

It was meant for people that played the gamemode more then a single day, having 30 repaired wreckage meant u could play 2 days later with a booster and get the rewards, and the rewards are for people that played railjack from the start

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

8 minutes ago, Tombsite said:

Then perhaps instead of saying "the Devs" don't play their own game perhaps just stick to complaining about Steve not being enough of a 1337 gamer for you taste ;)

being a 1337 doesn't mean anything

he is a director, and as a director should know whats being developed for the game, even if he doesn't know the fine details

imagine directing a movie and handing people a script to work with that's only half written and tell people to start filming without u and then decided to take a nap

that's literally how it feels

[(PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO]

On 2021-03-08 at 8:03 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Does the Plexus Need Forma?
While the new Plexus can indeed be upgraded with additional Forma (much like any other equipment you may use), it does come with 3 Base Polarities already. There’s also more Mod Points available without Forma due to the Aura Slot - which gives Modding Capacity like on Warframes! While it is possible to add additional Forma later, the amount of items you will be able to slot from the get-go are quite generous. You can also add an Orokin Reactor to double your Modification points, much like a Warframe.=

I think it's time to address the forma situation, there are too many items in game (8 years worth of items) that we polarize just to have them locked in a particular way, perhaps adopting the grid mechanic to the rest of the game or just get rid of polarities and make polarizing universal would be the smartest thing to do, the balance between the use and reward of forma is way off now.

And please take off the mod points cap on everything in the simulacrum, it's very sad when we forma something and regret later on, i really think these changes would be healthy for everyone.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

Well at least my pinata jack comes with a potato now.  Wasn't looking forward to that being the first thing I need to figure out.

This seems like an opportunity to reduce mod costs across the board now too. Just an idea...

[Tombsite]

23 minutes ago, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

being a 1337 doesn't mean anything

he is a director, and as a director should know whats being developed for the game, even if he doesn't know the fine details

imagine directing a movie and handing people a script to work with that's only half written and tell people to start filming without u and then decided to take a nap

that's literally how it feels

Well I only know about Steve from the Dev streams so I guess I'll have to take your word for how he behaves/preform at work and in a professional setting. (You clearly have an insight I do not posses)
I'll just settle for playing this game that he helped create. One that I still enjoy very much. :)

[Viggolina]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

It was meant for people that played the gamemode more then a single day, having 30 repaired wreckage meant u could play 2 days later with a booster and get the rewards, and the rewards are for people that played railjack from the start

I mean I've been playing since day one... just not that much because of bugs. Tried getting past the turbine bug to no avail. And fair enough that those rewards are for the players that put some serious time into it. It's just extremely frustrating to be eligible for tier 3 rewards and then they go "nah, actually you get nothing". 

[smashedwookie]

2 minutes ago, Viggolina said:

I mean I've been playing since day one... just not that much because of bugs. Tried getting past the turbine bug to no avail. And fair enough that those rewards are for the players that put some serious time into it. It's just extremely frustrating to be eligible for tier 3 rewards and then they go "nah, actually you get nothing". 

theres still plenty of time to farm the driac needed to max the grid