The Arsenal Divide: Changes & Follow Ups

[Boll]

Buff Vitus essence drop please ty

[Gaz_TTV]

Please clarify if condition overload is being capped to 3 status maximum (240% dmg) the intial update notes were not clear on that 

[powerful.brain.guy]

Can we get more information on how the procs for Arcanes and Galvanized mods work?

Do they refresh duration on new procs?

Do they stack duration like Titania's Razorwing Blitz?

Do the stacks respect their own timers and fall off independently?

Do the procs have an internal cooldown?

Can they be equipped on sentinel weapons and if so will sentinel proc'd effects work for Warframes?

[RoadCrewWorker]

Strong curling monkeys paw vibes with these changes.

I want to be convinced these primary/secondary changes are the promised "this wont just be a melee nerf, don't worry" boost but these workshops aren't giving me much to go on. They sound rather mediocre (is this On Kill stuff much better than it sounds on paper?) and there's no testcluster to get a real impression or figure out all the details that are omitted in these posts, and now stuff is already being "balanced down" in a vacuum.

Also why is this all being crammed into 30.5 in the month before Tennocon of all things? Why cant DE just release 30.5 earlier on its own (lord knows there's enough stuff in there already!), then take care of tennocon, and then have more time to run this stuff through a week or three of testclusters afterwards? Wouldn't you want to make sure core loop stuff like this doesn't appear to be rushed during one of the busiest times?

[Shinyah]

Instead of Primary/Secondary arcanes, "gun-stances" (only for the slot, no change for animations) would make more sense for uniformity and fairness compared to melee weapons.

Melee weapons with Orokin Catalyst : 60 + 10 (stance) = 70 points for 8 mods
Primary/Secondary weapons with Orokin Catalyst : 60 points for 8 regular mods and 1 exilus mod

Or make the arcanes give more points if it's easier in the current state of the dev build.

I don't understand why guns require more Formas than melee weapons.

Personally, locking the new mods behind a game mode with 1 attempt per hour is a huge downgrade.

With this new update, if I'm fighting the Jackal boss in Steel Path, the new arcanes/mods are useless ? My guns will be as bad as before with this update, right ?
Until I kill my first enemy in SP, my guns are not better than before. I hope my first enemy won't be a Nox.

[EtSpiritus_TWITCH]

Is this serious? I feel like DE is completely ignoring the main issues people have with this patch to begin with. First of all the new mods set being in steel path wasn't the biggest issue with them it was the fact that they are all on kill effects which guns will struggle to proc with only the strongest guns being able to use them effectively. on the melee side of things most tenno here already know that the nerfs to melee in some areas are way to overkill and in others could be done way better. the fact that most people have brought this up in the original arsenal divide post and DE seems to have brushed over it without even a thought feels like a slap in the face and I would like to have some sort of explanation as to why none of these have been addressed.

[Danielw8]

Since we cant test this new stuff before the launch, you guys should do a livestream testing and show how perfoms those new stuff in steel path against lvl 500, with all weapons type, and people will stop a bit. In a whole hour you can actually show the damage boost for all weapons, and how viable are they are in for example kuva survival steel path or mot steel path.

Just saying a recomendation.. its not good having this negative snowball feedback ..

 

[lukinu_u]

Il y a 1 heure, [DE]Rebecca a dit :

Why: This change is rooted in the depth of the new items we’re putting in Steel Path with this Update, and the hope some players had about being able to earn the Galvanized Mods before they even arrived on the Steel Path. Since Arbitrations also require a completed Star Chart, but are a step up in difficulty from that base Star Chart, we thought (and so did many of you) that they’d be a good stepping stone for earning some of the new Upgrades! 
 

Why not make them available in both game modes ?
The star chart completion to access these mods is an issue, but restricting them to Arbitration (that is a single mission every hour instead of the whole star chart) is also a big issue.

[(XBOX)RyukesApple]

53 minutes ago, Sl4ught3r777 said:

yeah but if they buff existing ones , all rifle like sniper , auto ,beam , bow need to have different mods 

No they dont. DE have changed, nerfed and buffed mods in the past.

[Toxicokwak]

Hi, ty

Il y a 2 heures, [DE]Rebecca a dit :

3) Galvanized Mod Acquisition:

Moved all Galvanized Mods to Arbitrations from Steel Path. 

Why: This change is rooted in the depth of the new items we’re putting in Steel Path with this Update, and the hope some players had about being able to earn the Galvanized Mods before they even arrived on the Steel Path. Since Arbitrations also require a completed Star Chart, but are a step up in difficulty from that base Star Chart, we thought (and so did many of you) that they’d be a good stepping stone for earning some of the new Upgrades! 

More farm why not ! change nothing for me it's good ! ( possible to squad with my boiz in endgame )

[Daiphelion]

So long as Galvanised mods are still 'on kill', they're still a waste of resources and won't tackle the issue they're supposedly designed to address. 

Emphasis on 'supposedly', there's absolutely nothing coming from DE that convinces me of their 'reasoning' here. 

[Almagnus1]

33 minutes ago, Maryph said:

Aside from the Artemis and the regulators, I can't think of a weapon that's used as a primaries or secondaries

All of the others are melee, and there're no new mods for them
But yes, I'm all for being able to put those new mods on those two exalted, even if I think that regulators don't really need that

DE should go back and make Blood Rush, Condition Overload, Weeping Wounds, and all the other melee mods (and for that matter all of the Acolyte mods) work on all the exalted weapons.

And for that matter, the warframes that use a stat stick (like Atlas) should have an exalted weapon so we don't have to cripple a weapon just to make the warframe work.  If we're going to fix an arsenal divide, that's a huge one that needs fixing.

[rainy]

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

General Beam Weapon Mod Change:

Beam weapons are too strong.

They have broken scaling with multishot bonuses on status damage, giving them a major edge on all other guns. Since deadlock protocol, Multishot has affected both base damage and status chance, resulting in a double-dipping from multishot bonuses on status damage, much like Faction mods but far stronger.

Is this going to be balanced? Status damage just needs to be divided by the multishot factor.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

(Since the old dev post is likely not going to be read/updated, and I just posted this reply today on page 60 (maybe 59?), I decided to add it to the continuing discussion, since the ON KILL thing wasn't addressed in the followup changes.)

Had another idea come to me about the whole "On Kill" debacle.

First, in all cases, it really needs to be a "Chance on Hit", with its chance determined by the mod, not tied to Crit Chance or Status Chance, it's own "on hit chance" must exist.

"On Kill" is too problematic for a number of reasons stated in this thread quite well, the biggest 2 being:

1) that we've seen how this is a problem for Nidus, and people killing his targets that he needed for stacks, but this now extends to all mod users competing for kills within their tiny window of "kill before x, or lose effect" conditions. Players will be competing for kills to keep their buffs up

2) Any time you come up against enemies who don't have minions to kill every 10-20sec, your weapons' nerfed base mod buffs (without the status proc'ing to build their real strength), will be your default condition. (and don't take this to mean I want hordes of minions to be constantly spawning with bosses, just to give me fodder to kill to keep buffs up... that would be sooo annoying.

Second: To decouple the chance on hit from Attack Speed buffs (getting tons more hits in with a fast weapon, less hits with slow weapons), there should be an internal "cannot proc more than once per .5 seconds," or whatever balance needs to be... but it ALSO needs a built-in safeguard for slower weapons, perhaps increasing the "chance on hit" by increments determined by the weapon's attack speed, up to 50% chance on next hit... this would also apply to the faster weapons, if you haven't hit anything with them during a lull in enemy population, so the first enemy you hit will proc the effect for the next horde of enemies coming your way.)

And, these effects need to last MUCH longer than 10-20sec... more like 30-60sec... this goes for both melee and guns. Small windows of buff duration only work for modes with constant streams of enemies, like Survival. Any time there's a lull between waves of Defense, or rooms devoid of enemies in Extermination, these buffs as announced, will disappear very quickly, and not carry on to the next wave of enemies, starting the whole build-up-your-strength cycle over again.

(as a melee player who doesn't use Naramon, preferring Vazarin for defense target healing/protection, I practically never see my combo counter over 3x in any mission, except Survival, and even then, there can be a draught of enemies, and I'm back at wet noodle status for a good long while. On Kill conditions will exasperate this situation for the new gun mods, and melee mod changes, as announced.)

[Cryssoberyl]

The change in store/currency is a mistake. Arbitrations are incredibly boring, samey, and tedious. All this does is re-deincentivize Steel Path, when there were, finally, some actual reasons to do it for people who don't use it as a kuva farm.

Also, Dexterity was already the only arcane anyone was going to use, and yet you've just made it even better and Merciless even more worthless than it already was.

Parazon complete rethink where? The proposed changes will also do nothing to help that system. So many viable alternatives have been proposed - momentary kneeldown window, guaranteed with cooldown, gradual charge on kill, and more - yet you're stubbornly digging your heels in on health percentages when it simply *does not work* in Warframe's gameplay.

[RivaAurelius]

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Tenno!

Since The Arsenal Divide Workshop launched on Friday, we’ve been busy developing, testing, and reading responses. We have some preliminary changes to share with everyone! We’re posting in a separate thread to highlight the changes, and will do all necessary cross posting in the originals to keep them up to date.  This means that June 22 onward has the latest information on The Arsenal Divide! 

In the days that passed, we’ve addressed 3 areas (as well as a 4th bonus one)!

Each one is covered in detail below:

1) Arcanes:

Primary and Secondary Dexterity Arcanes:
- Added +60% Holster Speed 
Why:  We are including a Holster Speed benefit within the Arcane itself to ensure the whole ‘Dexterity’ aspect of it is clear with the whole Arsenal being easier to use!  

Primary and Secondary Merciless Arcanes:
- Reduced MERCILESS Arcanes Duration from 6 to 4 secs
Why: We’re simply continuing to balance these (even after posting)! In practice, we felt lowering it was a better start given the pace of true Merciless enemy killing!

P.S the body of the original Dev Workshop missed this, but it was present in the video!
Dexterity Arcanes:  +7.5s Combo Duration

2) Galvanized Mod Properties:

Primary
- Galvanized Scope - Mod Capacity reduced from 14 to 12
- Galvanized Aptitude - Mod Capacity reduced from 14 to 12
- Galvanized Chamber - Stack count increased from 4 to 5. Mod Capacity increased from 14 to 16

Shotgun
- Galvanized Acceleration - Mod Capacity reduced from 14 to 12
- Galvanized Savvy - Mod Capacity reduced from 14 to 12
 Galvanized Hell - Base Multishot increased from 80% to 110%. Mod Capacity increased from 14 to 16

Secondary
- Galvanized Crosshairs - Mod Capacity reduced from 14 to 12
- Galvanized Shot - Mod Capacity reduced from 14 to 12
- Galvanized Diffusion - Base multishot increased from 80% to 110%. Mod Capacity increased from 12 to 14

Why: We reviewed feedback about build and Mod options when it comes to Mod Capacity, and felt it was a good idea to change Mod Ranks. Overall we’ve lowered the required Mod Capacity as a whole per category by 2. 
We also changed the Galvanized Chamber so that it is at parity with the Shotgun / Pistol Mods by virtue of maxing the stacks. 

3) Galvanized Mod Acquisition:

Moved all Galvanized Mods to Arbitrations from Steel Path. 

Why: This change is rooted in the depth of the new items we’re putting in Steel Path with this Update, and the hope some players had about being able to earn the Galvanized Mods before they even arrived on the Steel Path. Since Arbitrations also require a completed Star Chart, but are a step up in difficulty from that base Star Chart, we thought (and so did many of you) that they’d be a good stepping stone for earning some of the new Upgrades! 

Bonus: Beam Weapon Mods! 
4) General Beam Weapon Mod Change:
Ruinous Extension and Sinister Reach are now slottable in the Exilus slot and their text changed from "+X Range" to "+X Beam Length"
Why: While we are in the revision process for all things Mods, some well reasoned suggestions made it aboard! 


Original Post: 
 

 

 

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Tenno!

Since The Arsenal Divide Workshop launched on Friday, we’ve been busy developing, testing, and reading responses. We have some preliminary changes to share with everyone! We’re posting in a separate thread to highlight the changes, and will do all necessary cross posting in the originals to keep them up to date.  This means that June 22 onward has the latest information on The Arsenal Divide! 

In the days that passed, we’ve addressed 3 areas (as well as a 4th bonus one)!

Each one is covered in detail below:

1) Arcanes:

Primary and Secondary Dexterity Arcanes:
- Added +60% Holster Speed 
Why:  We are including a Holster Speed benefit within the Arcane itself to ensure the whole ‘Dexterity’ aspect of it is clear with the whole Arsenal being easier to use!  

Primary and Secondary Merciless Arcanes:
- Reduced MERCILESS Arcanes Duration from 6 to 4 secs
Why: We’re simply continuing to balance these (even after posting)! In practice, we felt lowering it was a better start given the pace of true Merciless enemy killing!

P.S the body of the original Dev Workshop missed this, but it was present in the video!
Dexterity Arcanes:  +7.5s Combo Duration

2) Galvanized Mod Properties:

Primary
- Galvanized Scope - Mod Capacity reduced from 14 to 12
- Galvanized Aptitude - Mod Capacity reduced from 14 to 12
- Galvanized Chamber - Stack count increased from 4 to 5. Mod Capacity increased from 14 to 16

Shotgun
- Galvanized Acceleration - Mod Capacity reduced from 14 to 12
- Galvanized Savvy - Mod Capacity reduced from 14 to 12
 Galvanized Hell - Base Multishot increased from 80% to 110%. Mod Capacity increased from 14 to 16

Secondary
- Galvanized Crosshairs - Mod Capacity reduced from 14 to 12
- Galvanized Shot - Mod Capacity reduced from 14 to 12
- Galvanized Diffusion - Base multishot increased from 80% to 110%. Mod Capacity increased from 12 to 14

Why: We reviewed feedback about build and Mod options when it comes to Mod Capacity, and felt it was a good idea to change Mod Ranks. Overall we’ve lowered the required Mod Capacity as a whole per category by 2. 
We also changed the Galvanized Chamber so that it is at parity with the Shotgun / Pistol Mods by virtue of maxing the stacks. 

3) Galvanized Mod Acquisition:

Moved all Galvanized Mods to Arbitrations from Steel Path. 

Why: This change is rooted in the depth of the new items we’re putting in Steel Path with this Update, and the hope some players had about being able to earn the Galvanized Mods before they even arrived on the Steel Path. Since Arbitrations also require a completed Star Chart, but are a step up in difficulty from that base Star Chart, we thought (and so did many of you) that they’d be a good stepping stone for earning some of the new Upgrades! 

Bonus: Beam Weapon Mods! 
4) General Beam Weapon Mod Change:
Ruinous Extension and Sinister Reach are now slottable in the Exilus slot and their text changed from "+X Range" to "+X Beam Length"
Why: While we are in the revision process for all things Mods, some well reasoned suggestions made it aboard! 


Original Post: 
 

 

Could the team please look at and address the feedback a lot of people have been leaving on the nerfs made to staple melee mods? Aside from the changes of the Merciless arcanes you've made in this post, I approve of all changes in this post. Why is the team already nerfing merciless though? 4 seconds does not feel long enough, and the way the arcane buffs work incentivize players to only use one weapon to maintain buffs. Isn't the point of these changes to encourage more diversity of weapon use and playstyle? 

Again I would like to address the nerfs made to melee, as I feel strongly about this. Melee were overwhelmingly good for steel path, and only a select few primary and secondary weapons were up to the task. So why even touch melee? Why not instead just buff gunplay up? Give each gun a combo multiplier, like with sniper rifles, and give us mods that monopolize on that, find ways to make guns match melee without making all three weapon categories mediocre at dealing with high level enemies. Maybe give every gun minor AOE that would count towards the combo multiplier if it hit enemies as well. Why can't every weapon be as good as current melee, rather than every weapon be kinda meh? 

Hope you and the team are well, I wish you all the best.

[-NTB-Cris0407]

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Why: This change is rooted in the depth of the new items we’re putting in Steel Path with this Update, and the hope some players had about being able to earn the Galvanized Mods before they even arrived on the Steel Path. Since Arbitrations also require a completed Star Chart, but are a step up in difficulty from that base Star Chart, we thought (and so did many of you) that they’d be a good stepping stone for earning some of the new Upgrades! 

 

Let them be in both places ^_^

You did say You want to improve Steel Path yet now You want us to grind Arbitration once more?

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

So you’re not making the absolutely mandatory change of changing these gun mods and arcanes to ‘on hit’.

As long as these mods remain ‘on kill’ they are going to completely worthless for higher levels like what Steel Path provides.

[Pancoar]

Can you stop with this "On Kill" nonsense? Thanks.

Also not happy about being forced back into Arbitrations. At least make the Vitus Essence drop more :/

[CodeVauban]

My only problem with mods dropping from arbitrations is that every arbitration rotation is already filled with trash.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

Melee Vs Firearms
Melee combo system Vs New firearms mods and arcanes


Melee: Combo counter accumulates on hit 

1. You start hitting the enemy - you build up your damage until it is enough to kill the enemy and keep this power level for the next enemy and so on
2. Combo duration can be extended by lots of mods (even by the new Dexterity arcane), NARAMON passive exists for combo decay so that you can keep your built up damage for the entire mission

Firearms: Arcanes and Galvanized Mods proc on kill 

1. you start shooting the enemy - you build up nothing until you kill the first enemy and gain first stacks, then another enemy, and so on
2. No way to increase the stacks duration and no NARAMON-like decay possibility I guess

If I was the one to decide I'd change it all to more smaller stacks but on hit
i.e. [Galvanized Diffusion] - +100% multi (passive), on hit +10% up to 10 stacks (200% max) duration 10s (decay by 1)

[Arcane Merciless] - On Hit:
+10% Damage for 4s. Stacks up to 36x (decay by 1)
+30% Reload Speed
+100% Ammo Max

[CanOfCraig]

This is a step in a better direction. But it still feels really crummy that you're building on an idea of mods that do absolutely nothing until a kill is earned, while also requiring aiming.

Please give us:
A mod that can stand alone replace Point Strike without requiring a kill to do anything

This will provide us with more build diversity and player choice when it comes to having a well balanced weapon. The new status chance mod looks appealing, but means nothing if it means sacrificing the little power primary and secondaries have as is. None of the mods being added directly increase the damage that guns do as is, and in too many cases (if we're balancing for steel path like it seemed the original direction was going) it takes a full magazine + damage over time proc's to kill an enemy.

Please Remove:
The need to aim for the mods to work.
 

This isn't an ADS time issue, it's a play-style issue, and a Riven issue where you're greatly increasing the value of -zoom even further than it already is. YES aiming is that much of a hindrance

Please Consider:

Impact is still going to be sitting in a largely un attractive state. Making it only preform an effect on 5 enemy types + eximus units removes many of the use case situations parazon kills could be useful. (strategic AOE blind, a way to spawn health and energy orbs, a way to refill guns [something that would have been really interesting to use with the new mods], and so on)

In most cases these won't be used anyways due to the quick nature of warframe. Pushing an enemy into a mercy kill state still leaves them as an active threat. If we're not in a melee focused mindset we are at range, triggering this state where the reward is to then run into fire (typically not just from the one enemy) in order to trigger an animated kill that I believe does not trigger i frames.

I had previously suggested that impact have a slight increase of physical damage to the enemy to make it an actual benefit when combined with other damage types on bosses, and other enemies. This would be a simple fix to make the stat not feel like a wasted status proc from a slow fire rate weapon and could be something as low as 10-15% to at least do something.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Do you worry that all this emphasis on buff stacks will incentivize players to use only a single weapon during missions to avoid losing the stacks? For example, if I build up my stacks on the primary weapon I'm unlikely to use secondary or melee since I'm afraid of losing primary stacks. 

Personally, I would prefer a system that incentivizes players to use the entire arsenal and mix it up a lot during missions, keeping the combat fresh throughout instead of just repeating the same actions over and over.

If the mods and arcanes were. “on hit” there would be less of a worry about that because they’d be easier to regain the buff if you do lose it.

[(NSW)Gamer-Steve]

50 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Can we get a fix for Ballista Measure with this as well? It was released undocumented about a year ago and the mod has an inconsistent description and doesn't appear to do anything for Archguns. Please don't forget about this mod. 

Also, for consistent weapon range modifiers, can (Primed) Firestorm/Fulmination get static range increases instead of percentage like melee received?

If / when that's fixed, do you think it could be a potential Exilus mod for Archguns? Well, hypothetically speaking at least. Resolute Focus also sounds Exilus-y, but it's reduced spread could be thought of as a DSP increase, perhaps.

 

The thought just crossed my mind since they've added RE & SR as Exilus, and they are a type of gun after all; Of course this wouldn't be akin to putting an Exilus slot on Melee, I don't think. Not to get off-topic too much.

• That said I am still hoping Archmelee & Sentinel weapons can get a look-over at some point as well. At least the latter :)

 

Changing Firestorm & Fulmination in that static way would also make them more fair compared to various Range mods for Melee, I agree.

 

39 minutes ago, Taiepii said:

Please explain me how I'm suppose to equip any of those new mods ? I'm full forma, each slot with the right polarity and I'm still at 0 / 60 I can not even equip amalgam to begin with.

 

Understand as well that I cannot properly have different Elemental build because of Cold being the only Varazin polarity 
 

I've been thinking that perhaps installing an Arcane of a varying level could function as a stance mod, to further increase the gun's mod capacity :)

• Hypothetically, if that were implemented then a Rank 40 Kuva gun might be able to reach the same amount as a Rank 40 Paracesis / Kuva melee weapon.
   
• That said, as Arcanes don't have polarities, I'm not sure if it would then be an increase based off of a non-polarized stance slot, or a green-polarity stance slot.

 

It would be some food for thought, if nothing else.

[RivaAurelius]

9 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

So you’re not making the absolutely mandatory change of changing these gun mods and arcanes to ‘on hit’.

As long as these mods remain ‘on kill’ they are going to completely worthless for higher levels like what Steel Path provides.

This is a good point. At this rate, the "buffs" you are giving to guns will be about as useful (useless) as the nerfed "berserker fury" mod. So all weapons will be approximately equal levels of useless... I guess that is a form of balance?