The “on kill” condition will not work in this game.

[JoJoshuee_DesK]

hace 5 minutos, Surbusken dijo:

the players asked them to expand on pure space combat.

Well, I don't think so, personally I don't remember any post like that, since most of them were, as I said, railjack doesn't fit in the game core or warframe is about space ninjas and railjack doesn't make me feel like a space ninja, I want to be a space ninja, no a space pilot or a space engineer 

[Surbusken]

17 minutes ago, JoJoshuee_DesK said:

Well, I don't think so, personally I don't remember any post like that, since most of them were, as I said, railjack doesn't fit in the game core or warframe is about space ninjas and railjack doesn't make me feel like a space ninja, I want to be a space ninja, no a space pilot or a space engineer 

That's a seperate complaint, of which admittedly there are a lot, lol.

 

But it makes sense if you think about it, the people who did still want to stick by railjack, last year when it failed, they obviously like the pure space combat.

Why would those people ask the developers to add copy-pasted ground maps, you have to load into? The people who stuck with space last year are obviously supporters of space, so they are going to ask for ground maps? Of course not, they ask for more pure space. Naturally.

 

It's just the developers splitting hairs or splitting words, because they technically did add "new game modes" "to" railjack, lol.

And - technically - did connect ground and space and make it "seamless", the fake budget version.

... as if splitting words is going to make the players magically enjoy gameplay they didn't ask for. Seems desperate.

 

/edit

ps.

If you check the trailer from 2018:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCgR4WQ0Co0

The idea of railjack was "seamless gameplay", flying into maps and picking up other players, and then for the railjack gameplay you had archwing-railjack-ground seamlessly connected.

That was the original complaint about railjack, that railjack was nothing like the trailer's concept.

It ultimate just turned into 'additional loading zones' with having to load dojo, to then load railjack, added more layers, not fewer.

Then the point in case was, okay knowing that, 'seamless railjack' is dead, but there are still people willing to play 'pure space'.

At which point they added additional loading zones... into ground maps.

So that's the situation, such as it is up until now.

 

[JoJoshuee_DesK]

hace 16 minutos, Surbusken dijo:

the people who did still want to stick by railjack, last year when it failed, they obviously like the pure space combat.

I'm one of them lol. But yes, you're right about everything.

[Joezone619]

They NEED to go in, and change the stats of guns, there is no other way to rebalance the arsonal divide, anything else will shift the unbalance to another system.

[Surbusken]

8 minutes ago, JoJoshuee_DesK said:

I'm one of them lol. But yes, you're right about everything.

The good news is I think a lot of players do want to like railjack and aren't ready to give up on it. I also think the developers haven't given up on it and who knows what will happen with corpus liches and railjack, it's definitely not over yet.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

4 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

You mean like they did for guns 3 years ago?

The reason why the melee stats revision was so large in comparison is that DE wanted to compensate for the nerfs to Blood Rush (From total crit to base crit) and Condition Overload (From multiplicative to additive) as the nerf would have been otherwise massive under previous weapon stats. In comparison, most guns were buffed in total DPS while losing nothing that required base stats compensation.

Not to mention combo counter used to multiply light attack damage, the real reason why they buffed damage by 2-3x. Now combo only multiplies heavy attack damage, meaning it's a completely arbitrary number unless you have Blood Rush or Weeping Wounds.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Not to mention combo counter used to multiply light attack damage, the real reason why they buffed damage by 2-3x. Now combo only multiplies heavy attack damage, meaning it's a completely arbitrary number unless you have Blood Rush or Weeping Wounds.

It does still apply to stat-stick abilities, although at 25% of the stack level. But yes, losing the combo multiplier for combo attacks as the combo counter grew was also a huge nerf that needed compensation. 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

10 hours ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

? You have to keep killing and getting headshots to maintain buffs.  Meanwhile enemies are getting harder and everyone else is still spamming “E” and thier abilities. Either we are playing different games or you are being completely disingenuous. And yes these mods don’t make guns suddenly less irrelevant. 

Who said we HAVE TO maintain buffs?  Or that we were supposed to?

 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

9 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Oh boy. Can't wait to abort every time someone is nuking everything. How am I supposed to charge my Galvan mod when these trigger happy Mesa and Saryn killing everything on the entire map before I even get to them?

So your complaint is... that these mods are BAD because... Your team is already TOO GOOD at WINNING already?  

So what's the problem?   If your goal is to complete the mission and get the stuff, and your squad is already doing that well...  where is the issue?

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

8 hours ago, Surbusken said:

That's definitely a totally fake story right there.

The 2018 deal was 'seamless railjack', which they decided to give up on, having worked on in since 2017, 2016? With the players never having asked for it.

THEN, the players said okay great, can we then instead have pure space combat, with more space game modes, such as space defense, space exterminate etc.

No one asked to fly over to a loading zone to play ground game modes... from space, lol.

Yes, technically speaking it was typed out as "railjack exterminate" so if you want to play stupid you can, but we all know what everyone meant when they said it, so they aren't getting off the hook splitting words, like people are magically going to forgive everything and start loving the game mode.

This hilarious idea people have it's all about bending the narrative and all is great? Reality is still reality, railjack is dead, again.

People didn't want railjack taxi, no one asked for railjack taxi and no one is happy with railjack taxi.

Worry about reality instead and let's stop wasting time on fake narratives.

Originally, no one asked for WARFRAME, either... and yet here we are.  The devs created this game because THEY WANTED to.  It wasn't a random request they acted on.  

Yes, feedback helps shape some of it, but it's the Devs' creation, and we, the players, don't "own" it.

And no, they didn't abandon "Seemless RailJack".  Steve has even mentioned it recently...  It's just that they have bigger issues on their plate right now, and tech isn't quite there yet, so it's on the backburner.  He's said as much.

Railjack is not "dead", either.  Hell, I actually find it pretty awesome.  

If it's not for you, fine. Don't play it...  but don't pretend to represent the opinions of the entire playerbase.  We're not all a part of your crusade to burn the devs down.

[DrivaMain]

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

So your complaint is... that these mods are BAD because... Your team is already TOO GOOD at WINNING already?  

So what's the problem?   If your goal is to complete the mission and get the stuff, and your squad is already doing that well...  where is the issue?

Quoting DE from The Shrine of The Eidolon update notes.

"I want to play a horde shooter, but there are no hordes to shoot".

I want to play a horde shooter grind simulator, not an afk unengaging grind simulator. 

Do people play the game for fun engaging gameplay anymore? Not this "Where is my shiny" mentality.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

7 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Quoting DE from The Shrine of The Eidolon update notes.

"I want to play a horde shooter, but there are no hordes to shoot".

I want to play a horde shooter grind simulator, not an afk unengaging grind simulator. 

Do people play the game for fun engaging gameplay anymore? Not this "Where is my shiny" mentality.

I play for the horde hack'n'slash + shooter sim, sure.. 

But these same people complain when things are nerfed such that mobs last longer...  

DE could add more mobs spawning, but there are performance issues tied to that, as well as loot rebalancing, etc, to consider.  

Regardless, if peeps are killing TOO fast, play higher missions, make a pre-made team, or run solo?  

Steel Path has higher density of mobs, and Arbitrations has drones to prevent ability spam, so less Mesas or Saryns clearing maps...  

Regardless, none of that has to do with whether or not the proposed mods do anything to HELP with DAMAGE OUTPUT at higher levels :/ 

[Surbusken]

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Originally, no one asked for WARFRAME, either... and yet here we are.  The devs created this game because THEY WANTED to.  It wasn't a random request they acted on.  

Yes, feedback helps shape some of it, but it's the Devs' creation, and we, the players, don't "own" it.

And no, they didn't abandon "Seemless RailJack".  Steve has even mentioned it recently...  It's just that they have bigger issues on their plate right now, and tech isn't quite there yet, so it's on the backburner.  He's said as much.

Railjack is not "dead", either.  Hell, I actually find it pretty awesome.  

If it's not for you, fine. Don't play it...  but don't pretend to represent the opinions of the entire playerbase.  We're not all a part of your crusade to burn the devs down.

Yes it was a key point in that debate "what the players asked for", which is what it is said in relation to.

And I am happy you hurry up and correct yourself, that it doesn't mean they don't "build the game based on player feedback", they both don't listen at all, but also take exactly the right amount of feedback, because the developers are perfect.com, right?

But then in your rush to defend everything by default, forgot the actual point of the argument: did the players ask for railjack taxi though?

Coming off somewhat developer apologist in that situation.

 

In so far as "owning" the rights to warframe, I don't think anyone has ever mentioned anything about that when talking about what gameplay changes they didn't agree with... in the entire history of the gaming industry.

I think everyone understands, at least superficially, it's down to owning rights, brands, patents or whatever. Stock by share holders, maybe being bought out by a chinese mobile game investor, if you really want to talk about pulling the strings, would be a more relevant point to get into.

Not that it was brought up, implied or relevant to the debate of failure of 'seamless' railjack' and railjack taxi.

We can say the players are the consumers and they pay for the game and they pay the developers' wages.

I mean what are you getting it? That the developers create a product via some superior, inspired creative vision that should be protected by not asking anything of it?

Don't disturb the artistry, are you trying to argue purism over utilitarianism?

Everything they work on is to make money, trying to find out how to appeal to the players?

Maybe you are right, they just work with a total disregard for the consumers, it certainly would explain a lot.

 

Then you go on to start a sentence with "the developers said" and end it with, they didn't scrap it, they just scrapped it for now, that is strike 2 and strike 3 for me, in declaring you a full on developer apologist.

You seem a little unclear on the state of advertising and a company's acting in public, when you look at it and go "they said...". You don't actually listen to politicians, journalists, corporate PR and so on, it's professionally fabricated per definition. The whole entire point of PR is bs'ing the consumer.

There is reality, then there is the story you give to the public on a professional level, this is business 101.

 

The save face story being, it's not possible because of the current game engine... well how often do they change engine? 4 times a year? How about never.

You took it on face value, you never take it on face value. Read between the lines and notice what wasn't said, and especially focus on what they don't want to talk about.

 

As a corporate entity with PR, salesmanships and advertising, we of course expect an obligatory certain amount of professional bs. It would frankly be amateur to not try to control the narrative of your brand.

What would be a good business move to say? "Yes, we probably shouldn't have spent 4-5 years on railjack, before realizing we couldn't pull it off?"

Here is an even better one, how about naming the developer by name who messed something up and declare them a failure publicly? Of course not, that would be foolish and professional suicide, for the brand.

Would you advertise your own mistakes or would you try to spin them, cover them up or use the silence veto?

It's all very common, basic, I mean it's normal.

The surprise here is you falling for it. What do you see when you watch commercials? No layer of manipulation? It's just point blank objective facts you can wager your life on?

... because that's "what it said". If tv said something it has to be true, because tv said it was?

Well.

[Artekkor]

12 часов назад, Battle.Mage сказал:

in my opinion the change should make garbage weapons playable again. it's not about balance. but the damage should be increased! but the buff only works for good weapons, as has been mentioned so often here!

Well, that's your opinion and you have the right to it. But DE already made up their mind and we know precisely what is happening here.

The change is brought forward by the fact that melee outperforms guns by a laaaarge margin. Ever since QuietShy made a video of her defeating a steel path mission by literally just pressing melee attack button and nothing else it didn't sit right with DE. So they're trying to shuffle the power difference between the two weapon classes around, so that guns wouldn't be falling this far behind.

And they even immediately deducted the issue: melee has superior mods, by far. Melee has Primed Pressure Point, melee has Blood Rush which allows it to get insane crits, melee has bazillion attack speed mods that stack with NO DOWNSIDE (for comparison guns actually have ammo limitations and high fire rate comes back to bite them).

So, that's precisely the vector of attack in this change. The goal will be to slightly nerf melee mods, particularly the most offending ones like Bloodrush and stackable attack speeds, while simultanously buffing - or in this case - introducing new, but improved mods that allows guns to increase their DPS to try and equalise with melee performance.

It was never about buffing old gear. Doesn't make sense for it to be. Again... We have riven system for that. We also have the "same gun, new polish" upgrades, like Prime, Kuva, Prisma yadi yada. Always a chance a S#&$ty gun will get an upgraded version. And a good riven will take care of the rest.

Although, IMHO, why not just buff Serration from 15% per rank to 20% per rank. Will solve like half the issue immediately.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

IDK why DE is so hesitant to make the mods “on hit”.

Just keep the max buffs the same, just increase the required number of stacks to reach it, and make it “on hit”.

Maybe change the increasing ammo max of the arcanes to increasing magazine size or ammo efficiency so guns aren’t wasting ammo building up the buff. It’ll let weapon guns be able to build up to the maximum buff faster and the stronger guns that don’t need the whole buff won’t immediately have the whole buff.

 

[trunks013]

12 hours ago, o0Despair0o said:

Unfortunately, I've witnessed people here supporting  the atrocity that is pineapple on pizza.

Wait a minute you don't agree with pineapple on pizza ????? 

^{_{btw i'm kidding this was just to make you laugh ^.^}} 

Alright back on topic to be honest i think getting our hands on it first might be a better idea just to look. Not defending it or anything but sometimes trying its better to give a proper review ^.^ 

[Wyrmius_Prime]

23 hours ago, trst said:

Then the argument is moot to begin with as nothing could ever bring weapons up to the level of ability spam other than finally nerfing abilities.

Or we could just make mods work without any stupid conditions and make them inherently powerful.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

3 minutes ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Or we could just make mods work without any stupid conditions and make them inherently powerful.

Or we could wait until it's released to give them a try.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

25 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Or we could wait until it's released to give them a try.

That would be a solid argument if the mods changed gunplay in some major way. All they do is make numbers go bigger, which means that their performance is extremely easy to simulate and calculate. That wouldn't be the case with a major gameplay overhaul or a total gunplay rework. Then there's the obvious problem with increased mod capacity, which is something that players are already running out of.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

18 minutes ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

All they do is make numbers go bigger, which means that their performance is extremely easy to simulate and calculate

Yet we don't have a way to simulate it right now so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

22 hours ago, Surbusken said:

Yes it was a key point in that debate "what the players asked for", which is what it is said in relation to.

And I am happy you hurry up and correct yourself, that it doesn't mean they don't "build the game based on player feedback", they both don't listen at all, but also take exactly the right amount of feedback, because the developers are perfect.com, right?

But then in your rush to defend everything by default, forgot the actual point of the argument: did the players ask for railjack taxi though?

Coming off somewhat developer apologist in that situation.

 

In so far as "owning" the rights to warframe, I don't think anyone has ever mentioned anything about that when talking about what gameplay changes they didn't agree with... in the entire history of the gaming industry.

I think everyone understands, at least superficially, it's down to owning rights, brands, patents or whatever. Stock by share holders, maybe being bought out by a chinese mobile game investor, if you really want to talk about pulling the strings, would be a more relevant point to get into.

Not that it was brought up, implied or relevant to the debate of failure of 'seamless' railjack' and railjack taxi.

We can say the players are the consumers and they pay for the game and they pay the developers' wages.

I mean what are you getting it? That the developers create a product via some superior, inspired creative vision that should be protected by not asking anything of it?

Don't disturb the artistry, are you trying to argue purism over utilitarianism?

Everything they work on is to make money, trying to find out how to appeal to the players?

Maybe you are right, they just work with a total disregard for the consumers, it certainly would explain a lot.

 

Then you go on to start a sentence with "the developers said" and end it with, they didn't scrap it, they just scrapped it for now, that is strike 2 and strike 3 for me, in declaring you a full on developer apologist.

You seem a little unclear on the state of advertising and a company's acting in public, when you look at it and go "they said...". You don't actually listen to politicians, journalists, corporate PR and so on, it's professionally fabricated per definition. The whole entire point of PR is bs'ing the consumer.

There is reality, then there is the story you give to the public on a professional level, this is business 101.

 

The save face story being, it's not possible because of the current game engine... well how often do they change engine? 4 times a year? How about never.

You took it on face value, you never take it on face value. Read between the lines and notice what wasn't said, and especially focus on what they don't want to talk about.

 

As a corporate entity with PR, salesmanships and advertising, we of course expect an obligatory certain amount of professional bs. It would frankly be amateur to not try to control the narrative of your brand.

What would be a good business move to say? "Yes, we probably shouldn't have spent 4-5 years on railjack, before realizing we couldn't pull it off?"

Here is an even better one, how about naming the developer by name who messed something up and declare them a failure publicly? Of course not, that would be foolish and professional suicide, for the brand.

Would you advertise your own mistakes or would you try to spin them, cover them up or use the silence veto?

It's all very common, basic, I mean it's normal.

The surprise here is you falling for it. What do you see when you watch commercials? No layer of manipulation? It's just point blank objective facts you can wager your life on?

... because that's "what it said". If tv said something it has to be true, because tv said it was?

Well.

Good grief, someone is high on their own bs O_O

I'm not "buying into" anything... and I'm not some "apologist".  You can label me however you like, but you addressed NONE of the points I made... One of the VERY FIRST being - I addressed that NO ONE asked for Warframe... it was a vision people had, that they developed and brought to market.  

No one HAS to ask for changes to be made for devs to do it.  And unless you've got actual data (not anecdotes), you can keep all the bs about "what the players asked for", too.  That's a hyperbolic statement that means nothing.

Also, I see that the majority of what I said went over your head or you're just being disingenuous, but...  I wasn't at ALL talking about literal "ownership rights" to Warframe! xD  lol  I was pointing out that players do not OWN the right to decide FOR the devs how the devs develop their game.  Players are welcome to either engage with the product or turn it down, but they do not -own- it.  

Anyways, ya wanna label people "apologists", but it's clear you're just here to condemn devs no matter what they do.   I've been a magician for 20+ years, I don't need lectures on how manipulation works... but not all PR is "lies".  It's simply not.  Sometimes it just is what it is, even if you don't like it.

If ya dislike the game and the devs so much, feel free to play other things....  but you can kindly step down from your high horse here, bud... it's not impressing anyone.  

 

[S1mplyFresh]

Reading through various threads on this forum about the upcoming update, and also the YouTube comments from DE's Dev Workshop... it feels like maybe 97% of you are just not very good at the game.

On-Kill procs require additional mechanical skill (more skill-based gameplay) to some extent, and this is bad... how?

If these Melee balance (not nerf) changes scare you this much, I can't imagine what would happen if DE decided to release true endgame content for Warframe (which is why it will never happen, unfortunately).

Ya'll really need to work on your Theory-Crafting.

[(PSN)rahul_the_gr3at]

On 2021-06-30 at 12:54 AM, Kaotyke said:

Doesn't matter how good an idea is, there's always gonna be someone denouncing it.

And if there's one thing this community is good at, it's attacking good ideas.

 

Pretty much summed up my thoughts

[Xyngrr]

21 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

IDK why DE is so hesitant to make the mods “on hit”.

It's straightforward - I can pump out 20 rounds a second from a number of weapons without stretching. 12 rounds a second is garden variety RoF, about average. This means full max buff in under one second on a single enemy - the condition becomes so trivial it might as well not exist. I wouldn't even have to do damage, just register a hit as it doesn't gate based on actually doing damage.

The other options you mention lead into an obvious functional solution I've mentioned elsewhere which they've chosen not to implement - a universal combo counter which the gun mods key off and charge differently from melee weapons. Melee kills count as current, gun kills charge multiple kills or even a full multiplier. Gun mods key directly off the multiplier teir for their buffs, while melee combo buffs continue to act as they currently do. This allows you to build and maintain combo with whatever weapon you wish, use and recieve benefits from it with whatever weapon you wish, and still requires maintenance to keep. They could even vary the amount of combo gain from different weapons based on their power or ease of use or any other metric, allowing weaker/less desireable weapons to get more return for kills made with them as incentive to take them in your loadout ( in addition to their riven disposition ).

I honestly don't know why they chose not to encourage synergy with melee through the combo counter and instead decided to staple on pre-nerf 'on kill' conditions that further cement the divide between melee, the current best guns, and everything else but for whatever reason they did. It would be a shame if the reason was ' Even if it's exactly the silver bullet solution, it's boring. We've done that before, and it made melee too powerful so we're just not going to even look at it. ' Once you've invented a wheel that rolls nicely and built a car around it, you don't need to make tank treads just to keep auto design fresh. I can understand why they would be hesitant to go universal meter though - prior to the melee reworks you couldn't get out of the starting area without three zenurik circles on you, now it's rare you see them ( except on ability nukes ) because everyone at higher levels is running Naramon for the melee combo conservation to supercharge their big blades.

The changes they are presenting so far won't make us warriors of blade and gun, they'll make us warriors of gun-until-it-doesn't-retrigger-buff-reliably and then blade-forever-more. They do not bring the synergy and fluid exchange between melee and weaponfire that has been a playstyle goal at DE for a while now, but instead encourage homogenous play in either until one fails and the meta has to take over for the imbalance.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 hours ago, S1mplyFresh said:

Reading through various threads on this forum about the upcoming update, and also the YouTube comments from DE's Dev Workshop... it feels like maybe 97% of you are just not very good at the game.

On-Kill procs require additional mechanical skill (more skill-based gameplay) to some extent, and this is bad... how?

If these Melee balance (not nerf) changes scare you this much, I can't imagine what would happen if DE decided to release true endgame content for Warframe (which is why it will never happen, unfortunately).

Ya'll really need to work on your Theory-Crafting.

I tried to tell them, but they miraculously and coincidentally always find anyone to blame but themselves.

There was a reddit thread a few weeks ago where the top answer was a guy saying DE should make it so all weapons can be strong with 2 forma.......

Imagine being so lazy that your progression in the game stops at 2 forma....