The “on kill” condition will not work in this game.

[Venus-Venera]

Am 30.6.2021 um 12:33 schrieb (XBOX)GearsMatrix301:

IDK why DE is so hesitant to make the mods “on hit”.

most likely so that the players stay longer in the mission and players online increases. there is also a lack of content and devs want people to farm some garbage with a 2% chance drop rate for MONTHS. that was the case with deimos mech mods and will also happen here.

devs cannot produce updates that quickly and mr30s get bored after 2-3 days.

[Jarriaga]

3 hours ago, S1mplyFresh said:

Reading through various threads on this forum about the upcoming update, and also the YouTube comments from DE's Dev Workshop... it feels like maybe 97% of you are just not very good at the game.

On-Kill procs require additional mechanical skill (more skill-based gameplay) to some extent, and this is bad... how?

If these Melee balance (not nerf) changes scare you this much, I can't imagine what would happen if DE decided to release true endgame content for Warframe (which is why it will never happen, unfortunately).

Ya'll really need to work on your Theory-Crafting.

I agree with you in principle, but there is no need to sugar-coat reality with euphemisms.

As an action, a decrease in performance is a nerf. As an action, an increase in performance is a buff. They are both made in the name of balance, which is an objective. Directly calling it balance without recognizing that balance is being achieved via nerfs is disingenuous. 

These are massive nerfs that cut melee DPS by roughly 35%-55% depending on whether or not you remove Berserker from your build. I am OK with said nerfs. No need to call them anything other than nerfs, because "balance" is an objective and buffs and nerfs are the practical tools to attempt to accomplish said objective.

[Surbusken]

4 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

Good grief, someone is high on their own bs O_O

I'm not "buying into" anything... and I'm not some "apologist".  You can label me however you like, but you addressed NONE of the points I made... One of the VERY FIRST being - I addressed that NO ONE asked for Warframe... it was a vision people had, that they developed and brought to market.  

No one HAS to ask for changes to be made for devs to do it.  And unless you've got actual data (not anecdotes), you can keep all the bs about "what the players asked for", too.  That's a hyperbolic statement that means nothing.

Also, I see that the majority of what I said went over your head or you're just being disingenuous, but...  I wasn't at ALL talking about literal "ownership rights" to Warframe! xD  lol  I was pointing out that players do not OWN the right to decide FOR the devs how the devs develop their game.  Players are welcome to either engage with the product or turn it down, but they do not -own- it.  

Anyways, ya wanna label people "apologists", but it's clear you're just here to condemn devs no matter what they do.   I've been a magician for 20+ years, I don't need lectures on how manipulation works... but not all PR is "lies".  It's simply not.  Sometimes it just is what it is, even if you don't like it.

If ya dislike the game and the devs so much, feel free to play other things....  but you can kindly step down from your high horse here, bud... it's not impressing anyone.  

 

Sure, but you are quoting something I said, from another debate, which is the argument you would like to attack, right?

Now you are saying you said it... but you want me to justify what you said.

I can't justify that, what you are saying is nonsense. It's gibberish. Why should I justfiy your argument, have you even made one yet?

 

What is it you want to debate? That players don't have a legally binding contract that gives them any rights or privileges? Or are you talking functionally, what is most efficient, or do you mean morally, what would be fair?

 

I define a developer apologist based on exactly the points they don't make, the lack of - where it's not inteded as an insult, it's meant to say 'you aren't debating', you are being biased, in a generic way. If at least people were original lol.

Usually they will have something like 5 copy-pasted statements, which are so generic, you can track them across every video game forum dating back at least 20 years.

"Coding is hard".

"Could you do better?!?!11"

"If you don't like it, play something else" / "no one is forcing you to play it"

"The developers said...."

 

I have this thing, where I get a reaction, when I see prototype, generic, formulaic, copy-pasted behavior, I get a sense of assembly lines, mass production, rigid indoctrination tying back into manipulation, consumerism and industrialization, commercialization, advertising, PR etc.

But diplomatically said, you can call it "generically biased".

You said you've been running the same act for 20 years, I believe you.

 

My first principle is accepting I am stupid, the brain makes tons of mistakes everyday, maybe even in every moment. I have also been slacking, what work I could have put in, in an ideal situation. I am behind.

Second principle you decide to move on from worrying about your ego and move forward. I'd like to get better, I'd like to learn knowing how stupid I am.

Okay great. Then you get to realizing what difference did ego make? If my IQ is 80 or 180, I have to move forward, improve, learn and get over myself.

The plan is the same. Get better.

 

My arrogance offends you because you think I have a giant ego, the opposite of my actual thinking.

The smaller you can make your ego, the more you are able to think clearly, in order go after improvement and knowledge - which makes all of us the exact same, because it's a universal mechanism we all have to struggle with, so we actually have no identity or personality, in that it's not unique to you, no one is special.

Simply stated, you can waste your energy defending your ego or you can try to learn something.

 

... where nothing is more sad for my intentions, than unoriginality, copy-pasted behavior I heard before.

I know I have to lose to learn, that is exactly what I want.

My dream scenario, is walking into a conversation I am too stupid to even take part in and the other partcipants just spamming out ideas, points and theories, where I can take notes with me back to the lab.

I just want to hear something new, really.

 

... which then ties into innovation, creativty, moving things forward, especially in an industry based on accelerating technolgy.

It's always just the next tiny plateau, read one more book, one more chapter, one more page, on more word. You run 50 meters longer that night, add another 7% crit chance or whatever, you keeping moving forward.

Which the developers directly talked about way back, they did not want to end up generically releasing weapons and frames on an assembly line, they want to move to that next plateu, 'lift together' remember.

... but of course if you are creative, you instinctively want to try something new, that's the definition of it, right?

I had assumed back when they said, warframe was not to be formulaic, you would, at least from time to time, see something come out that was experimental, maybe even a little too crazy, too bold.

We did get mining rocks instead. Which is probably the biggest gameplay feature insult you can add to a game. It's the biggest formulaic waste of time, in the whole industry.

Then I question the mindset on seeing that.

 

Saying all that, to explain where I then come in, in this debate we had the other night. That's where I am coming from. The short version, lol.

I brought up "dynamic gameplay" and "play-creating", as both possible, actual solutions to the "industrialized copy-pasting mmo grind stagnation standard", but also a point in principle.

Ways to move beyond by random examples. I am more interested in asking where the attempt to improve is at?

 

I'd say mmo grinding is obsolete, it was always degrading, you don't see the developers grinding do you lol. but used to be necessary.

Really I just want to see the attempt or maybe even just the desire for an attempt by universal principle as mentioned early on.

 

Does anyone not want to be healthy? Well, then you going to have to admit you aren't perfect, you are doing something wrong, it's time to learn.

People who can't get over themselves waste all their energy on defending not learning.

 

So when I boil that down to smallest components, it's either stuck or moving forward.

lol.

 

I hope that explains where I was coming from in this debate and the points I was trying to make with the grind and "dynamic gameplay".

[GREF_TM]

On 2021-06-30 at 5:19 AM, Mediloric said:

I still think they need to make a large pass at every weapon like they did for melee a long time ago, adjust stats and damage. 

Given how many weapons are currently in the game, it's borderline impossible for DE to deliver an actually good balance patch without pissing at least a part of the community off for either underdelivering or overbuffing specific weapons.

 

Plus, it's pretty low priority. I'd rather want them to finally balance warframes - you know, the key part of their game - because as it stands now, there are far too many underpowered or straight up garbage abilities that make their respective frames look extremely bad compared to frames that have a good kit.

[Softballbryan]

On 2021-06-29 at 4:20 PM, DrivaMain said:

Oh boy. Can't wait to abort every time someone is nuking everything. How am I supposed to charge my Galvan mod when these trigger happy Mesa and Saryn killing everything on the entire map before I even get to them?

If I enter a mission and everyone around me is destroying all the enemies…. Well…. That’s great really. I’ll take that over Tenno just hanging out. I like it when others are focused on destruction like me. If we are in the mission long enough then my kill count and the new mods will be fine. 

[Sojufueled]

I mean, on kill is a bit win-more, but it's not useless. Just ask the Pyranna Prime. The base versions of these mods will be almost as good as the defaults. Functionally, my complaint with a ramp up solution is that it exacerbates a do one thing ad nauseum playstyle. I would prefer a solution that encouraged movement through the complete kit.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

On 2021-06-29 at 3:09 PM, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

Does anyone really expect that these galvanized mods will actually be beneficial to gun play outside of solo play? 

1. they take up a mod slot (so great you just nerfed gun till you get a kill with your nerfed gun)? 

2. With all the Warframe power spamming , non LoS frame abilities and hitscan abilities how do you plan on getting a kill with your guns and keeping that buff going? Self nerfed AOE weapons only err what? 

 

My Cyanex will be happy to replace Lethal Torrent with one of the new mods. (don't know the name off the top of my head)

[Tesseract7777]

I think what it comes down to is, if you understand modding, you will be fine, if you don't, you will have to blindly watch your favorite youtuber and copy them, and you will stumble through the game well enough.

The rest is just the same endless bloviating and lamentations over and over again. 

If you can't kill something in SP to get an on kill condition going, you have a PEBCAK problem. 

The level of serious some of you take all of this meta stuff is beyond meta. Every time I see how absurdly meta this site gets, I am reminded of that XKCD comic: 

"I'm So Meta Even This Acronym". 

Pretty much sums up this forum. 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Softballbryan:

If I enter a mission and everyone around me is destroying all the enemies…. Well…. That’s great really. I’ll take that over Tenno just hanging out. I like it when others are focused on destruction like me. If we are in the mission long enough then my kill count and the new mods will be fine. 

1 player should carry another 3?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

39 minutes ago, Battle.Mage said:

1 player should carry another 3?

They already are. There were never enough spawns to cater to 4 people. 4 people can trivialize SP as well. Pick 4 frames and I'll tell you how at least one is gonna end up not doing much.

[-Augustus-]

13 hours ago, Xyngrr said:

I honestly don't know why they chose not to encourage synergy with melee through the combo counter and instead decided to staple on pre-nerf 'on kill' conditions that further cement the divide between melee, the current best guns, and everything else

Because "on-kill" rather than "on-hit" conditions are coming for at least BR/WW, and probably the whole combo counter, in the not too distant future. They'll explain it as what's best for the game and further reducing the arsenal divide. 99.9% of us will scream about how it's BS, DE will spotlight the 0.1% of sycophants who say it's great as evidence they're listening to players, and things will roll on.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

49 minutes ago, -Augustus- said:

Because "on-kill" rather than "on-hit" conditions are coming for at least BR/WW, and probably the whole combo counter, in the not too distant future. They'll explain it as what's best for the game and further reducing the arsenal divide. 99.9% of us will scream about how it's BS, DE will spotlight the 0.1% of sycophants who say it's great as evidence they're listening to players, and things will roll on.

...Imagine laying the first brick of a new home.. and the future tenant just starts complaining and shouting "What is this!? I can't sleep on a BRICK!?  Where will I park the CAR!? How will I fit a kitchen on a BRICK!?"

Like, they're setting the FOUNDATION for changes... this update is NOT their final Warframe update ever...not even close... It's a single brick in a larger foundation of changes.  It takes time, it takes a few steps forward, sometimes a few steps back, and we get there eventually.

That's most live service games. That's ALWAYS been Warframe. 

Let's wait for the 6th, and see how these mods function in practice...then give CONSTRUCTIVE feedback, and see where that goes...

[-Augustus-]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

.blah blah blah

That was a longwinded way of agreeing with me that this apparently weird introduction of an "on kill" condition for new mods/arcanes likely presages a more general nerf of melee's "on hit" systems, but whatever floats your boat.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb -Augustus-:

That was a longwinded way of agreeing with me that this apparently weird introduction of an "on kill" condition for new mods/arcanes likely presages a more general nerf of melee's "on hit" systems, but whatever floats your boat.

some trolls want to attract attention and certain emotions. it is really worth it to put them on ignore right away. When I read posts like this, I can only laugh. just how can one discuss here?

and that devs want to nerf mele is no secret either.

[Xyngrr]

16 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

...Imagine laying the first brick of a new home.. and the future tenant just starts complaining and shouting "What is this!? I can't sleep on a BRICK!?  Where will I park the CAR!? How will I fit a kitchen on a BRICK!?"

Like, they're setting the FOUNDATION for changes...

... if you place your brick not level but instead angled 31 degrees upwards in a swamp, the house you build will neither be true nor long above groundlevel. 

This is not the first brick.
We already have conditional mods that used to be useful as augments with others providing base functionality. They have been changed so they are exclusive and add a condition to marginally varying function. If you have a choice between having +150% crit chance in all scenarios, and MAYBE having 160% IF you land a headshot and nerf your movement by aiming down sights but only for 9 seconds, in a fast environment like Warframe it really isn't a choice. IF they allowed stacking with the conditional having reduced function, then you again have a choice to move beyond base functionality and into focused give and take as stacking means you cannot slot something else.
But that's not what we're getting here.

Additionally, if you get your brick from an existing house by breaking the six surrounding to extract it and expect there not to be structural repercussions, damaged material, or perhaps angry tenants you're doing a craptastic job of telegraphing the plan. It's standard practice to inform those you require to be involved in the execution and success of an endeavour as to exactly what the plan is, so everyone is on the same page with you.
But that's not what we're getting here.

In case you haven't noticed - WE, THE PLAYERS, are exactly half of the success of Warframe. They provide a good experience, we play and support it and both parties benefit. And we're telling them this is not the right move but they've already committed to it after having slid inconsequential versions through because they only affected a small percentage of players. From the looks of it, they figure the frog doesn't noticed it's being boiled. They are incorrect. 
Is the sky falling? Not with any rapidity, and nor will it significantly with the current batch of changes ( except for the min/maxers, those few % are gold to them ), but continuing on this course fundamentally changes many of the things most of the playerbase enjoys in one fashion or another, and so far there is scant indication they are significantly positive changes... even at this early point. 
If you pilot project meets no success or accolade, ramping into full production without significant reflection or counsel is an unwise choice, which is what we're  trying to push through the radio silence.

[Monolake]

They will be used on AOE weapons of course - that you can spam allover the map and kill thru walls. Are you ready for obnoxious Ogris napalm spam everywhere?  While mediocre single-target weapons will become even more irrelevant. Not a good change.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

23 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

They already are. There were never enough spawns to cater to 4 people. 4 people can trivialize SP as well. Pick 4 frames and I'll tell you how at least one is gonna end up not doing much.

Excalibur, Mag, Hildryn, Nekros

[GwinKyblood]

Wonderful
more people killing for me while watching my show on netflix and getting rewards :333333333
 

[GwinKyblood]

if you want to be the highest dps, go to wow or another game

: ^ )

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

4 hours ago, Xyngrr said:

... if you place your brick not level but instead angled 31 degrees upwards in a swamp, the house you build will neither be true nor long above groundlevel. 

This is not the first brick.
We already have conditional mods that used to be useful as augments with others providing base functionality. They have been changed so they are exclusive and add a condition to marginally varying function. If you have a choice between having +150% crit chance in all scenarios, and MAYBE having 160% IF you land a headshot and nerf your movement by aiming down sights but only for 9 seconds, in a fast environment like Warframe it really isn't a choice. IF they allowed stacking with the conditional having reduced function, then you again have a choice to move beyond base functionality and into focused give and take as stacking means you cannot slot something else.
But that's not what we're getting here.

Additionally, if you get your brick from an existing house by breaking the six surrounding to extract it and expect there not to be structural repercussions, damaged material, or perhaps angry tenants you're doing a craptastic job of telegraphing the plan. It's standard practice to inform those you require to be involved in the execution and success of an endeavour as to exactly what the plan is, so everyone is on the same page with you.
But that's not what we're getting here.

In case you haven't noticed - WE, THE PLAYERS, are exactly half of the success of Warframe. They provide a good experience, we play and support it and both parties benefit. And we're telling them this is not the right move but they've already committed to it after having slid inconsequential versions through because they only affected a small percentage of players. From the looks of it, they figure the frog doesn't noticed it's being boiled. They are incorrect. 
Is the sky falling? Not with any rapidity, and nor will it significantly with the current batch of changes ( except for the min/maxers, those few % are gold to them ), but continuing on this course fundamentally changes many of the things most of the playerbase enjoys in one fashion or another, and so far there is scant indication they are significantly positive changes... even at this early point. 
If you pilot project meets no success or accolade, ramping into full production without significant reflection or counsel is an unwise choice, which is what we're  trying to push through the radio silence.

You are missing the entire point here:

It's a handful of friggin' mods, not fundamental changes.  This is easier to backstep than changing base stats of guns, and it's easier to track the usage of.

We've looked at the numbers. The mods have been completely openly revealed. There is no "secret" they're not being upfront about, so don't know where you get off making that assertion. 

With the numbers in question, when the mods ramp up they ABSOLUTELY do a ton more than their vanilla counterparts.  Furthermore, these mods are not REPLACING the current mod set... they are adding TO it.  So, if you don't like the Galvanized mods approach... DON'T USE EM.   It's not difficult.

If DE sees, after this update, that the mods aren't getting used... maybe they'll make further changes to the conditions or variables... but one brick at a time.

For the thousandth time, this update was NEVER meant to be "The One To Fix Them All!". 

[LillyRaccune]

10 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

This is easier to backstep than changing base stats of guns, and it's easier to track the usage of.

Good point. I guess I'm still grumpy because of the "crippling" melee nerf. I suppose it isn't as bad as it looks.

I hope these Galvanized mods will make will the cool (but niche) weapons more effective. Stug says hello.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

47 minutes ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

You are missing the entire point here:

It's a handful of friggin' mods, not fundamental changes.  This is easier to backstep than changing base stats of guns, and it's easier to track the usage of.

We've looked at the numbers. The mods have been completely openly revealed. There is no "secret" they're not being upfront about, so don't know where you get off making that assertion. 

With the numbers in question, when the mods ramp up they ABSOLUTELY do a ton more than their vanilla counterparts.  Furthermore, these mods are not REPLACING the current mod set... they are adding TO it.  So, if you don't like the Galvanized mods approach... DON'T USE EM.   It's not difficult.

If DE sees, after this update, that the mods aren't getting used... maybe they'll make further changes to the conditions or variables... but one brick at a time.

For the thousandth time, this update was NEVER meant to be "The One To Fix Them All!". 

It's 2021 and we still mod our weapons against armor scaling as if it was still 2013. 

In Damage 1.0, there was Armor Piercing and Serrated Blade meta.

In Damage 2.0, there was Corrosive and Viral/Slash meta. Not all enemies have armor anymore so Gas is pretty good. 

Today, Viral/Slash is even more meta. Corrosive capped and Gas gutted.

Corrosive was capped at 80% strip, so it breaks even with a full strip against Ferrite armor at 4500 armor and gets worse as armor levels get higher. ~4500 armor is what a level 74 Heavy Gunner sports which is roughly where the gentler S-curve scaling kicks in. In theory, things should balance out, but Steel Path dropped with multiplied armor values.

Viral got buffed to the point where it's superior to Corrosive's armor strip up to Sortie levels alone. Viral/Slash makes Corrosive a joke.

The buff to Viral is supposed to be balanced by the removal of 4xIPS priority making Slash harder to proc, but Hunter Munitions and Forced Slash procs from stances are a thing.

There may be promise with Impact as DE fiddles around with Parazon Finisher thresholds.

At this rate, Puncture, the physical type "best" against armor as the in-game tool tip indicates is going to be the worst physical type against armor. 

I dunno, DE could buff Puncture into a weaker, but niche Viral that increases enemy weakness to all damage types by 15% on first proc to 24% on last. Cool synergy with Corrosive and Radiation's +75% armor class modifiers by raising them up to +99%

 

 

[Xyngrr]

1 hour ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

You are missing the entire point here:

It's a handful of friggin' mods, not fundamental changes

Given I said the same thing, that these additions are not the end of Warframe, you should re-read what I posted and maybe calm down a few notches.

When you do, you might catch the theme that is being repeated with these changes - one round of removal of stacking bonus options has already occurred - now it's on to the provision of an option between base guaranteed funtionality and potentially larger gains ,BUT with multiple conditions attached that cause the mods to have no significant improvement over the stacking band-aid model that was already implemented and then removed. Further the removed stacking model STILL did not compete with the melee DE are pointing to as the reasons for implementing them, which clearly indicates these changes will not impact that balance. They at most result in the same bonus to a single frame and single weapon as that which you get from a self buff like eclipse, Not even to the entire loadout, but only one weapon. 

We are in agreement what they are offering now is not the solution to fix them all, nor is it intended to be.
We are in disagreement that the direction of the offered changes is the correct one in order to reach that final solution that equalizes the playing field between options while maintaining their distinct style.

'They can reverse it later' - either you are unaware or in denial. If the changes do not occur in the first three weeks, it takes literal years and reliably never in some cases for DE to admit they've made a terrible mistake and modify/reverse it. This is why veterans are vocal now - to head off the implementation of changes that convolute and still do not apparently fit into a rational solution of the problem. DE is are getting better, but that closet is chockfull-o-crunchy-skeletons. This not the hill you want to die on.
'There's no secret ..' ...Correct. Just a pattern so far of making changes that do not address the problem they are stated to spurred by and appear to be random stabs with near-complete silence on any feed back we give. Credit where it's due - DE did respond to the location of the mods, but stopped short of fully re-assessing their scheme. Good and bad respectively. More information about the modding framework they are attempting to build that does NOT look like ' remove everything and reset it all to conditional ' would be good...
...But this is not what we're getting.
'Let them do their thing, it's their toy anyways' is only half true. It's OUR toy as well and one that doesn't work without us. Never forget this, never allow them to forget it, but keep in mind you don't have to say it everyday. It works on mutual respect or one side begins thinking their half is the 'importanter' half and ignores the needs of the other half...like informing them of the goal and how the current changes fit into it, or not providing feedback when something is clearly not going to reach the goals it's stated to step towards.
 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Excalibur, Mag, Hildryn, Nekros

Hildryn and Nekros can stand there while Mag and Excal handle the group. Hildryn can go afk while stripping armor or ccing and nekros obviously is desecrate. 

I solo SP Mot with Excal and we all know how OP Mag is lol.

[Aldain]

3 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Viral/Slash makes Corrosive a joke.

Especially when Heat procs also works fairly nicely on armor and can pair with Viral, hence why we have the "Silver Bullet Trio" issue at the moment.