What do you guys think of those who try not to execute Liches or Sisters?

[(PSN)max141064]

1 minute ago, Merrcenary said:

i can answer you in a symetric way: if you don't like slow murmur farming then you can stop playing in public games and make a squad for fast efficient murmur farming

So you are trying to slow down murmur farm just to feel like you're in charge. 

thanks for proving my point. 

sad but ehy...you do you, sooner or later youìll find yourself not fining any players to play with with this mindset. enjoy the "ignore" button in game i guess...

[TARINunit9]

Just now, MqToasty said:

Wait, so if your average lich level is the same as mine, doesn't that mean not-stabbing will not keep the lich level any lower?  Mathematically, "Everyone Always Stabbing" will absolutely maximize the murmur gain speed for everyone.  Remember that it is not Ten Bonus, but rather Forty Bonus per stab because you have 4 in a squad.  The only major exception is if anyone already has 3 words unveiled, as all murmur gain for them is wasted.  I will also concede the point that if you have an exceedingly shy lich who absolutely won't show up until the 4th or 5th mission, then it may be a good case for not stabbing.  But anecdotally, and I do not know if this is just RNG messing with me, I find that even my shy liches tend to show up more frequently once she becomes familiar with the pointy end of my parazon...

Yeah in my experience that's just wishful thinking. The real speed boost isn't from bonus murmurs, it's from the missions themselves going faster in Public vs Solo

That's why I don't take Always Stab seriously, they complain that I'm slowing them down when... I'm not slowing them down. Not while we're still both on Earth (which is the number one culprit of Not Stabbing being a problem: my Liches love to spawn in the third mission, and due to the numbers involved I get First Unveiled AFTER the third mission regardless of whether I stab or not).

[JackHargreav]

I don't give a damn.

[EmberStar]

13 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

OK to clarify: the average cases have the same statistics but your method is much slower. And it doesn't really help this:

Statistically, you still have to fight a Rank 3 Lich. You spend all this extra time on Earth, only for a 5 in 6 chance to still fight them at Rank 2 and a 1 in 2 chance to fight them at Rank 3.

The ultimate kicker is that Liches don't gain any stat boosts until Rank 3. And the normal enemies don't gain any stat boosts until Rank 4. I know what you're getting at, I hate Rank 5 liches too, but your method is just a lot of time running around for extremely tiny payoff that statistically doesn't matter

But from my point of view:  The extra time is spent ON EARTH, fighting lower level minions.  Let me repeat:  I do not enjoy fighting higher level bullet sponges.  The payoff is that I don't get so sick of Warframe that I stop playing entirely for three months.  *CAN* I kill higher level enemies?  Yes.  Do I even slightly enjoy it?  Not even a little bit.  In any case, there seems to be nothing further to discuss - I see NO benefit I actually care about that would convince me to stab unless I know all three.  Even in the case where I have to clear the first planet and eat a rank up, at least they'll start the NEXT planet at full Rage and I can be fairly certain that they'll show up every mission.  Which is either more thralls, or less time spent screwing around fighting enemies I don't want to fight just to piss off the Lich enough so that I CAN stab them.

*Edit*  The missions available also matter, a bit.  I don't play mission types like Defection and Disruption - as far as I'm concerned those are dead nodes on the outer planets, and if it was an option I'd delete the lich and start over rather than play those mission types if those are the only ones left and I'm still waiting for the Lich to make the "angry enough to show up" roll.

[TARINunit9]

15 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

But from my point of view:  The extra time is spent ON EARTH, fighting lower level minions.  Let me repeat:  I do not enjoy fighting higher level bullet sponges.  The payoff is that I don't get so sick of Warframe that I stop playing entirely for three months.  *CAN* I kill higher level enemies?  Yes.  Do I even slightly enjoy it?  Not even a little bit.  In any case, there seems to be nothing further to discuss - I see NO benefit I actually care about that would convince me to stab unless I know all three

Well like I said, enemies don't actually level up until the Lich is Rank 4, i.e. Mars is the same as Earth, so I'm not sure what the problem is-

15 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

*Edit*  The missions available also matter, a bit.  I don't play mission types like Defection and Disruption - as far as I'm concerned those are dead nodes on the outer planets, and if it was an option I'd delete the lich and start over rather than play those mission types if those are the only ones left and I'm still waiting for the Lich to make the "angry enough to show up" roll.

Well, if your mentality is that different from my own, I guess all we can do is respectfully agree to disagree. Good luck with your endeavors

[NecroPed]

2 hours ago, EmberStar said:

And I don't think it's "exploitative," especially when there's the inherent trade-off of having to mostly solo it so I don't have to deal with impatient tryhards who'd rather abort and eat a mission fail just for spite when I don't stab the instant my Sister shows up.

I think it's exploitative because liches and sisters are supposed to get stronger as you go and you're actively avoiding the thing that can do that for an easier reward. I'm doubtful it was DE's intention for people to intentionally avoid stabbing it either which would come into play as to whether or not it is an exploit.

[MqToasty]

4 minutes ago, NecroPed said:

I think it's exploitative because liches and sisters are supposed to get stronger as you go and you're actively avoiding the thing that can do that for an easier reward. I'm doubtful it was DE's intention for people to intentionally avoid stabbing it either which would come into play as to whether or not it is an exploit.

Yet there is a 1/336 chance of you guessing it right on the first go without Oull, 1/56 chance of you guessing it right on the first go with Oull.  Given that she's:

1. Not cheating in any way and following the system DE designed.
2. Playing solo so she is not disproportionately benefiting from anyone else's lich stabs.
3. Playing a LOT more missions per lich than the rest of us to keep its level low.

I respect her choices and do not see what she is exploiting?  If this is totally not what DE intended, then I can only hope they modify the system soon...

[XaoGarrent]

I think that if you don't stab your lich, it should automatically gain 2 levels after vanishing if your team repeatedly makes it take a knee.

[Aldain]

4 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

I think that if you don't stab your lich, it should automatically gain 2 levels after vanishing if your team repeatedly makes it take a knee.

What is with all the nuclear waste level bad takes in this thread?

I swear I'm getting PTSD from the Lich launch with all this pointless arguing/flaming...

[MqToasty]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yeah in my experience that's just wishful thinking. The real speed boost isn't from bonus murmurs, it's from the missions themselves going faster in Public vs Solo

That's why I don't take Always Stab seriously, they complain that I'm slowing them down when... I'm not slowing them down. Not while we're still both on Earth (which is the number one culprit of Not Stabbing being a problem: my Liches love to spawn in the third mission, and due to the numbers involved I get First Unveiled AFTER the third mission regardless of whether I stab or not).

The more I read about your experience, the more I'm starting to think this is a server culture thing.  Unless incredibly unlucky with lich spawns, I tend to get the first word by the end of the 2nd mission (~3 or 4 liches) because almost everyone else is always stabbing.  If my lich spawned in the 2nd mission before I get the word, of course I would stab to share the wealth -- I don't particularly mind leveling them up.  And as I said in a earlier post, if most others are not stabbing in your community, then you should not stab either lest you become that sucker.  So your strategy is probably the most sensible one, given your situation.

[NecroPed]

7 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

Yet there is a 1/336 chance of you guessing it right on the first go without Oull, 1/56 chance of you guessing it right on the first go with Oull.  Given that she's:

1. Not cheating in any way and following the system DE designed.
2. Playing solo so she is not disproportionately benefiting from anyone else's lich stabs.
3. Playing a LOT more missions per lich than the rest of us to keep its level low.

I respect her choices and do not see what she is exploiting?  If this is totally not what DE intended, then I can only hope they modify the system soon...

Yes there's a chance of a quicker end result while fighting against it properly. That doesn't mean you can't exploit it. 

1. Cheats and exploits aren't the same thing. Sure there can be crossover but they are not the same. 

2. I'm not talking about anyone in particular or their individual behaviours and I appreciate that they do it solo. But as far as I'm concerned intentionally avoiding leveling up an enemy for an easier reward can easily constitute as an exploit. 

3. Not necessarily. And it can make other people require more missions as a result of temporarily blocking their lich/sister from spawning, and resulting in less murmur gain potentially requiring more missions to unlock your murmurs if your lich would have spawned before the chance was taken by someone who isn't stabbing theirs. 

[XaoGarrent]

21 minutes ago, Aldain said:

What is with all the nuclear waste level bad takes in this thread?

I swear I'm getting PTSD from the Lich launch with all this pointless arguing/flaming...

This is one case where playing solo is what you need to do.

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

This is one case where playing solo is what you need to do.

I already do.

I play solo BECAUSE of people who constantly suggest ridiculous punishments for not doing something the way they want them to.

[MqToasty]

12 minutes ago, NecroPed said:

Yes there's a chance of a quicker end result while fighting against it properly. That doesn't mean you can't exploit it. 

1. Cheats and exploits aren't the same thing. Sure there can be crossover but they are not the same. 

2. I'm not talking about anyone in particular or their individual behaviours and I appreciate that they do it solo. But as far as I'm concerned intentionally avoiding leveling up an enemy for an easier reward can easily constitute as an exploit. 

3. Not necessarily. And it can make other people require more missions as a result of temporarily blocking their lich/sister from spawning, and resulting in less murmur gain potentially requiring more missions to unlock your murmurs if your lich would have spawned before the chance was taken by someone who isn't stabbing theirs. 

1. I think we may subscribe to different definitions of "exploit".  In my mind, an exploit is a way to cheat the system and is a bannable offense.  I don't even think leeching in a public squad should be bannable, let alone this.

2. See my answer to 1 above.  I think I need to understand your definition of "exploit" first.

3. She's playing solo.  There is no other people.  She definitely needs many more missions to crack her lich.  In fact, I would wager that even my worst run (always stabbing in PUGs) cost less missions than her best run with her strategy.  But it's her choice and she's not bothering or even leeching off of anyone else, so why not let her enjoy it?

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

44 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

First of all, being in the Always Stab camp, I do not pretend I am without biases, conscious or not.  But in defense of these word choices, these are necessary because that is how the payouts are set up by DE.  When you stab, everyone in the squad (yourself included) is guaranteed a murmur payday.  Additionally, you could win the gamble and skip much further along by identifying one or more words and positions immediately, although more likely you will end up with a leveled up lich and only minimal information gain.  When you do not stab, you and your team are guaranteed to lose out on the flood of murmurs, and you are guaranteed to have the lich not level up for now.  Additionally, you could end up with less missions total and you could end up with a lower level lich in the end.  If I made a mistake in identifying the surety of a payout, please do correct me.

 

Hey, thanks for acknowledging biases exist and that we may be guilty of them. As you may be aware, conversations can sometimes turn sour fast when talk of biases are raised, but based on your response, you seem comfortable and open about it, and I think thats generally a good thing. I think the certainty you applied with each process is sound, the only issue is that it doesn't speak of the relative value we can assign components or if it reflects those values fairly. 

 

1 hour ago, MqToasty said:

Hmm...  The best I can think of is the aphorism, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"?  But I do not think it has any scientific basis, so perhaps it is not what you are thinking about?

 

Good attempt to guess, but thats not it. Its either a type of philosophical paradox, or something even more specific to game theory, and complications that arise from blind testing, or lack of transparency. When people all want a certain outcome, but for various reasons, this information isn't widely known by others in the group, so they default to what they perceive is the groups will/desire, again for different reasons depending on scenario. 

 

1 hour ago, MqToasty said:

Now that is an interesting scenario you brought up, and exactly why I believe this stab/don't stab decision is based on the Prisoner's Dilemma.  Let's check the cases individually:

1. If no one stabbed (everyone Defects).  In this case, everyone ends up with no lich level up and just the 1 word they gained from the Hounds in this mission.
2. If some stabbed and others did not (some Cooperate, some Defect).  In this case, the non-stabbers do not incur a lich level up while the stabbers do.  Everyone gains around 1.5 words (the first and maybe halfway to the second).
3. If everyone stabbed (all Cooperate).  In this case, everyone incurs a lich level up, yet everyone also gains 2 words instead of 1.

So just like the Prisoner's Dilemma, the worst individual position is to be the only stabber (Cooperator) amongst a group of non-stabbers (Defectors), and the best individual position is to be the only non-stabber amongst a group of stabbers.  The worst team position considering all players is to have everyone be a non-stabber, and the best team position considering all players is to have everyone be a stabber.  Now you may not agree with the team positions if you believe a lich level up is a greater penalty than 1 more unveiled word, but we should agree on the assessment of the individual positions, right?

Please do not fault me for the terminology.  Those were invented ages ago and not by me.  As for why Stab = Cooperate and not Stab = Defect, see the previous section where it comes to payouts and best/worst positions to be in.  Yes, Tit for Tat is the "near optimal" strategy I was referring to.  I will not spoil Nicky Case's game for you, but there is a better one, and actually addresses some of the complexities you mention, such as information disparity and mistakes.  "Tit for Tat" is called "Copycat" in the game, btw, don't ask me why.

As already disclosed, I too am an "always stabber".  Although I do try to take names when I can and ignore those who I'm pretty sure is intentionally not stabbing so I will not play with them again.  I always love a good discussion, even if we may not agree in the end.  If you enjoy game theory then please do remember to check out the game when you get a chance -- if nothing else, it will be a fun refresher!  Cheers!

 

Hehe its especially interesting since it veers away from what I intended, but thats okay, I can adapt. Okay, so you rephrased my hypothetical, and thats okay. I wanted to ask a question though. Do you think its possible, that you you are tailoring your examples, around the conclusion, you may have already drawn? I acknowledge I may be guilty of this as well, but I tend to think I am avoiding this, mostly because I recognise the variables can lend itself to different levels of efficiency. Which means, that there are going to be some situations its more efficient to stab (so agree with you conditionally) and some where its not (where we divert), and why and how this can change. Where as your framing seems to always be the same, seemingly without any variables making a difference? 

For example, when learning a Requiem, you also gain potential data pertaining to order (another variable, since the data you learn is always beneficial, but its more beneficial to know a spot than it is to know thats not the right spot), and your Sister/Lich will appear sooner than later. Your second point should acknowledge or discern when some people don't stab, and whether thats transferable to others. Since again there are some scenarios where everyone would benefit, there are also scenarios where they won't. I don't have issue with the terminology, just the application here with the example. PD takes on a while lot more complexity if we introduce the idea that in some scenarios if A betrays B, B is actually rewarded, and how that affects A and B's attitudes and approach. So its not even that I disagree with team positions, rather (and i could be mistaken, please let me know if I am) I place more importance on the conditions that create the scenarios and their influence on outcomes around whether to stab or not. 

Maybe I can introduce a new hypothetical, and this one is hyper specific, so I am not claiming this is routine or average. Lets say that you are playing with 3 friends? You all start your Sister at the same time, you are all in this together, and you already know this, from beginning to end. However RNG is a bit nicer to them, so at some point, they have all defeated their Sister and the Sisters have fled to the Railjack section. Except for you. You know your Requiems, but you don't know the full order. You know a little of the order, because you have been stabbing and getting it wrong, so you can use process of elimination, but your next stab isn't guaranteed to defeat your Sister... but, because of your attempts... you do know, that the next Requiem you get, your third and final, will let you defeat your Sister by process of elimination. You also only need to beat one Hound to learn it. Then you and your friends can all go and defeat Sisters together. Your Sister appear in the next match... do you A. Stab it, even if you know you'll probably not defeat, but you'll find out anyway, so you and everyone else will just do 4 or 5 more missions? B. Down her, knowing she'll almost definitely appear the next mission, defeat her and then everyone is off to the Railjack section? For the example, just ignore Requiem Ultimatum's etc maybe you don't have any. Like I know you are an "always stabber" but in that example, wouldn't you not stab?

To be clear, I know I constructed a very specific scenario, that may not ever happen to you personally or reflect how the game is played generally... the point of he example/scenario is to just question the limitations of an "always stabber" attitude, as to whether their attitude is always most beneficial to others, when and why? Also incidentally, I have been in this situation personally. I usually stab with PUG's, because not many stick around, and thats understandable, out of polite etiquette etc, but playing with people who wait for you/friends, will actually raise questions about what is "faster" or "better" because again, murmur progress isn't always the most valuable reward. Its less about random acts of generosity/etiquette and situations where what benefits the individual and group, can change based on variables. Of course that also doesn't mean that murmur progress isn't valuable, it just adds in more complexity and consideration because of the different scenarios than can play out. 

Ah yeah I figured it was Tit for Tat, but isn't that for iterated prisoner's dilemma and doesn't it also depend on the strategies of opponents? Also I believe there have been stronger strategies, by taking advantage of that (I suspect this may play a role in the link/game you provided) but such strategies aren't necessarily the most successful overall in more generalised/broader scenarios. Which puts importance and value into certain variables, and their effectiveness/success. I'll play the game eventually ha, its late here, but you have me intrigued by it. 

Oh and yeah, I am enjoying this conversation as well, I might not be able to reply today, if you do reply, but if not, I will tomorrow. It could just also be we are very different types of players, and thats okay too. For example, I can solo Tridolon, so I often look for people to help carry. I mean, it would kind of be nice if one of them went Trinity, or Volt (I usually go one or the other) just for the sake of the group and rewards, but at the same time, I am there to help, and I am sure eventually they'll get the hang of it and start to apply their new found knowledge. As long as other plays are active/polite, I don't really care about the rest of their behaviour. I think its also fair if other players are more discerning/critical though too. 

Cheers! 

 

[NecroPed]

41 minutes ago, MqToasty said:

1. I think we may subscribe to different definitions of "exploit".  In my mind, an exploit is a way to cheat the system and is a bannable offense.  I don't even think leeching in a public squad should be bannable, let alone this.

2. See my answer to 1 above.  I think I need to understand your definition of "exploit" first.

3. She's playing solo.  There is no other people.  She definitely needs many more missions to crack her lich.  In fact, I would wager that even my worst run (always stabbing in PUGs) cost less missions than her best run with her strategy.  But it's her choice and she's not bothering or even leeching off of anyone else, so why not let her enjoy it?

Cheating and exploits can have a lot of crossover but aren't necessarily always the same thing. 

Im talking about the system as a whole not any one individual. Like i already stated. 

An exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers. And that advantage doesn't have to be over anyone else, it can be a purely personal advantage and still be considered an exploit.

I'm not saying it should necessarily be bannable but should be changed. Stop putting words in my mouth, please.

Again, I'm talking about the entire thing. Not any one individual. Stop making my comment about one person. I even already stated I appreciate the fact they do it solo. 

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

20 hours ago, Aquapisces said:

In my server I see many players being aware of this but they choose to ignore the situation of their teammates and still forcing them to parazon their sisters even if no murmur is solved.They do not care and just say it's for the improvment of 4,not you one.

I feel so puzzled----why it seems that seldom do players take care of the need and situation of their teammates?In practice I hardly see players being angry because of that,but the status quo often gives me the illusion that most players hate it.

We all are in same position. So assuming "i will not stab" you should think of "no one will stab". And this comes with "no extra murmur for anyone". So yeah, you slow down everyone. And generally unfair.

It's not like you get great advantage. You just move the window of opportuniny. Less murmur, less chance for another meeting to know right mod, so another hesitation for even less murmur. Do not forget the chance of blind guess. This is pretty exiting and 12.5% is already better chances than half things in the game.

 

19 hours ago, LillyRaccune said:

You are suggesting that I "guess" a requiem mod that I am likely to get wrong 23 out of 24 times (or 95.83¯%)

I'm confused what are you calculating. Blind guess is ALWAYS 1 of 8. There should be some mod in any specific place, there is only 8 requiem mods. It can't be less than that.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

3 minutes ago, -JT-_-R3W1ND said:

We all are in same position. So assuming "i will not stab" you should think of "no one will stab". And this comes with "no extra murmur for anyone". So yeah, you slow down everyone. And generally unfair.

It's not like you get great advantage. You just move the window of opportuniny. Less murmur, less chance for another meeting to know right mod, so another hesitation for even less murmur. Do not forget the chance of blind guess. This is pretty exiting and 12.5% is already better chances than half things in the game.

 

I'm confused what are you calculating. Blind guess is ALWAYS 1 of 8. There should be some mod in any specific place, there is only 8 requiem mods. It can't be less than that.

 

Alternatively the thought process of "If you have a Oull or aren't close to finding out your Requiem and you want the extra Murmur from stabbing, please do, and thank you for the murmur you give everyone, if you chose not to stab, I'll assume its because you might have just learned the Requiem, and you'd rather stab next mission, and there are a bunch of reasons with that, but I will bear no malice, because situationally, there may be instances I will benefit from also not stabbing" and this comes with extra murmur for people occasionally, but not always. You can have a friendly and accepting attitude to both stabbers and non stabbers. 

Which to myself, is fine. It depends on the circumstance, either way the whole process is much faster anyway. The advantages either way aren't that incredible, and they also directly depend on certain circumstance (behaviour of the Sister, other plays play styles, your mission choices/options, whether you are PUG or with friends) 

As for the calculating, the other user is probably considering you have to work out three slots... not just one. No? Or am I misunderstanding you? 

[T-Shark69]

16 minutes ago, -JT-_-R3W1ND said:

Less murmur, less chance for another meeting  to know right mod

You forget the aggro reset. If my lich spawned this mission theres a nearly guaranteed chance it'll spawn in the next one if i dont stab. The grind gets longer for me if i stab blindly. If I wait i make meaningful progress since i  either guess a right position or eliminate one. The next encounter i can switch places with Oull and dont have to hesitate.

[Aldain]

Was there a clean up on aisle 6 or is my insomnia just causing me to be delusional?

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

36 minutes ago, T-Shark69 said:

You forget the aggro reset. If my lich spawned this mission theres a nearly guaranteed chance it'll spawn in the next one if i dont stab. The grind gets longer for me if i stab blindly. If I wait i make meaningful progress since i  either guess a right position or eliminate one. The next encounter i can switch places with Oull and dont have to hesitate.

No, i don't. I'm talking exactly about this downside. Sure, if we are about "nearaly garanteed" or moving toward this point, we have less and less difference of murmur loss.

"But i can Oull". Sure, but i will know another requiem and have 33% (first correct/not) to test 2 mods same time. And, if it does, i do my kill cause i have Oull too.

[LillyRaccune]

37 minutes ago, -JT-_-R3W1ND said:

I'm confused what are you calculating. Blind guess is ALWAYS 1 of 8. There should be some mod in any specific place, there is only 8 requiem mods. It can't be less than that.

There are three mod slots. You can not equip duplicates (eg Fass Fass Fass). When you equip three random mods, you have 3 out of 8 chances of picking the correct mods. The position of the mods is the next factor, maybe you picked all the correct requiem mods but you have 1 out of 3 chances to correctly position them.

Those are my components: Number of slots (3) times the number of different requiem mods (8) equals 24 chances.

If we are talking about the odds of someone picking the first mod correctly, yes there is a 1 in 8 chance. However the reality is: there is a 1 in 3 chance that the correct mod we picked is in the wrong slot.

That is how I arrive at a "1 out of 24 chance" that a blind guess stab will be successful.

[T-Shark69]

8 minutes ago, -JT-_-R3W1ND said:

No, i don't. I'm talking exactly about this downside. 

You didnt mention it at all. You're comparing making a meaningful guess next mission vs next three missions. You're asking me to set me back a lot just for some murmur. 

 

11 minutes ago, -JT-_-R3W1ND said:

"But i can Oull". Sure, but i will know another requiem and have 50% (first correct/not) to test 2 mods same time. And, if it does, i do my kill cause i have Oull too.

By the time I make my second guess ill have two known ones too, no one doesnt stab from Phobos onwards. No one has a reason to at least.

[Zimzala]

22 hours ago, Aquapisces said:

Let me clearify my opinion.I never mind any one of my teammates choosing not to parazon their sister because their murmur is not solved,but seems that lot of players cannot underatand such a simple reason and easily get outragous. So what you guys think about it?Accept it or not?

This kind of useless drama form other players is why I pay Solo.

It really is just that simple.

I have no desire to interact with humans that have so little emotional maturity that everything turns into llama drama while I am trying relax and unwind playing video games.

Why people continue to subject themselves to these random drama queens and call it fun is baffling to me.

[Zimzala]

Double double.