is there a reason for DE's absurd constant release of explosive weapons?

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

3 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

Clearing trash mobs. It’s what AOE is for in literally every game. It’s wave clear.

guess what, the entire game consists of 90% trash mobs, 10% bosses with invincible frames

[_junguler]

the game is about killing as many people as possible as fast as possible, there is hardly any content in the game that rewards you for taking your sweet time doing things.

aoe weapons are the easiest and fastest way to do things in this game and that's why they are so popular, nobody likes to waste their time when the drop chance for the items they want is so low.

[(PSN)Jacobivan]

On 2021-09-01 at 11:16 PM, -AncientWarrior- said:

Look I agree with this as its completely accurate, but DE could make weapons like the Ambassador (which I really like as its good for low to mid level stuff) give it more damage in higher levels .. and I think thats where the problems arise.. how do DE make weapons like the SMG or assault rifles better for higher levels but so they dont just wipe the enemies off the face of the maps on lower levels.  Using the example of the Ambassador, great auto weapon with a built in sniper .. nice concept but in say Steel Path it is pretty much useless like most others of its kind.. where as the AOE weapons do a form of damage to anything really..

It depends what youre doing steel path for. If farming countless acolytes, or endurance runs auto rifles are not optimal. But for casual 'do alerts and done' Ambassador, Supra Vandal, or many other auto rifles are more than adequate. Sure, killing single enemy requires short burst, preferably to the head, but with ok build they are enough to keep up life support or kill enemies before they destroy defence objective. 

Not quite the number of kills per second as AoE weapons, but infinitely more fun to play and perfectly viable. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

7 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Having aoe doesn't make survival/spy/most bounties/etc go by quicker. It just nets you more kills which doesn't matter when much of the game's grind isn't tied to killing trash enemies.

Getting more kills just makes people feel good and explosive weapons in general have been popular across multiple games. DE also just has tunnel vision when it comes to designing as pointed out earlier.

Hrm, that does make sense. Until recently I didn’t realise how many of the missions don’t necessarily go by faster by killing faster. There are some situations where killing faster is crucial, but off the top of my head, it now seems like a big reason to use AoE is because it feels good to use

late edit: Wouldn’t mind if they released a little less AoE, personally

[sitfesz]

On 2021-09-01 at 10:07 PM, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

is there a reason for DE's absurd constant release of explosive weapons?

DE sees that aoe weapons are really popular.

Tinfoil hat on: DE waits a bit until most players give in and invest massively in aoe weapons, then they nerf them and buff something else to be OP to create the next investment base.
Tinfoil hat off: DE have no actual idea what they are doing, so they release the popular stuff according to their statistics to try and make players happy until the next content. Flow like the water.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

guess what, the entire game consists of 90% trash mobs, 10% bosses with invincible frames

Guess what, so do most other games. You can’t populate levels with 90% bosses my guy xD

 

and regardless of your last comment, the purpose of AOE is wave clear. It was the question that was asked and it was answered. There’s nothing you can really argue with here.

[-AncientWarrior-]

On 2021-09-03 at 10:21 AM, (PSN)Jacobivan said:

It depends what youre doing steel path for. If farming countless acolytes, or endurance runs auto rifles are not optimal. But for casual 'do alerts and done' Ambassador, Supra Vandal, or many other auto rifles are more than adequate. Sure, killing single enemy requires short burst, preferably to the head, but with ok build they are enough to keep up life support or kill enemies before they destroy defence objective. 

Not quite the number of kills per second as AoE weapons, but infinitely more fun to play and perfectly viable. 

I agree with you, and I really like the Ambassador, using a lot now and its a fun gun to use.. SP I admit I dont do the quick alerts I do endurance runs and no I dont take Ambassador in there .. but most other places I run with that, as like you said, its a fun gun :)

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 2021-09-01 at 4:12 PM, Tesseract7777 said:

Because people keep telling them that it is a horde based game and that single target weapons or weapons without a multi-target gimmick struggle to be effective for that reason. 

And their usage stats support this by weapons that hit a lot of targets at a time floating to the top consistently. 

They know what the playerbase wants, so they give them more and more of it. 

Or…to answer OP:

”Because blowing up lots of enemies with a single trigger pull is fun?”

If OP wants a business 101 reason:

Keep them playing to keep exposing them to point-of-sale opportunities to keep them PAYING.

And fun keeps them playing and usage probably shows that aoe launchers do that.

 

[AzureScion]

I generally don't really care what people use since it's their own fun but I hate it when someone spams Ogris with Nightwatch Napalm, especially with firerate boosting frames like Wisp or Gauss. Eventhough I have my particle reduced to basically nothing, they still fill up the screen like crazy and can drop my fps from 40-60 all the way to 10. 

[Slayer-.]

3 minutes ago, AzureScion said:

I generally don't really care what people use since it's their own fun but I hate it when someone spams Ogris with Nightwatch Napalm, especially with firerate boosting frames like Wisp or Gauss. Eventhough I have my particle reduced to basically nothing, they still fill up the screen like crazy and can drop my fps from 40-60 all the way to 10. 

There is another setting that may help you, in Options under Display scroll and find Reduce Teammate Visual Effects turn it on and see if it helps.

[AzureScion]

Just now, Slayer-. said:

There is another setting that may help you, in Options under Display scroll and find Reduce Teammate Visual Effects turn it on and see if it helps.

I have it on. I have the settings at the lowest possible option. This helps with other stuff though, like Bramma explosions, Plasmor projectiles, warframe abilities etc. But for some reason napalm Ogris still blows my FPS off the chart. 

[Slayer-.]

Just now, AzureScion said:

I have it on. I have the settings at the lowest possible option. This helps with other stuff though, like Bramma explosions, Plasmor projectiles, warframe abilities etc. But for some reason napalm Ogris still blows my FPS off the chart. 

Ok, that sucks then, I used to run all my display settings all on maxed settings, but of late I had to turn off particle effects which is strange as I always ran that set to Ludicrous, I'd never had a problem before. 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

17 minutes ago, AzureScion said:

I generally don't really care what people use since it's their own fun but I hate it when someone spams Ogris with Nightwatch Napalm, especially with firerate boosting frames like Wisp or Gauss. Eventhough I have my particle reduced to basically nothing, they still fill up the screen like crazy and can drop my fps from 40-60 all the way to 10. 

Then DE needs to address it just like they did with Simspam Mirage and should with Vortex Vauban and Technicolor Octavia and you should post in Feedback, yes?

DE is consciously making efforts to make sure Warframe is tech spec friendly to reach a wider audience with lower end capabilities.

NN Ogris is a great build and is hardly the nightmare that SIMSPAM MIRAGE was or even the original KUVA BOOMBOW but I feel you.

 

[sunderthefirmament]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Silverback73 said:

Then DE needs to address it just like they did with Simspam Mirage and should with Vortex Vauban and Technicolor Octavia and you should post in Feedback, yes?

DE is consciously making efforts to make sure Warframe is tech spec friendly to reach a wider audience with lower end capabilities.

NN Ogris is a great build and is hardly the nightmare that SIMSPAM MIRAGE was or even the original KUVA BOOMBOW but I feel you.

 

I reported it as a bug.  Reduced Ally VFX does nothing to it.

 

 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Just now, sunderthefirmament said:

I reported it as a bug.  Reduced Ally VFX does nothing to it.

 

 

Tres Magnifique! Everyone benefits when the community as a whole has more fun playing.  TY!

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

The problem is enemies and mission mechanics.  Every weapon and frame that is popular deals with large groups of enemies very quickly.  This is partly because mission mechanics in things like survival and defense require that you have insanely high kill speed against groups, and partly because the game just throws so many enemies at you all the time that half of surviving is making sure they're all dead on arrival.

You just don't have the kill speed required with something like the Prisma Grinlock, despite it being a good weapon and fun to use.  Killing a single enemy at a time, even with a gun strong enough to one shot pretty much any singular enemy, isn't fast enough anymore unless it's being done with something like melee which is crazy fast at clearing a target and immediately hitting the next and can also technically hit more than one enemy at once as well.  When you're killing a single enemy at a time, even with a high degree of precision and speed, enemies can spawn so fast that as soon as you hit a reload (and the reload is probably atrociously long.) you have to swap off the weapon or get overrun/start losing mission progress.

Look at the stats on the Synapse.  Massive crit on a fast hitting beam weapon with (considering it's a beam weapon with higher fire rate) decent status and literally only corrosive damage for its base.  If it chained it would either be one of the most popular weapons in the game or it would have been nerfed into the ground by now, but instead some of you are going to the wiki to look up what gun I'm talking about.  Weapons like the Arca Plasmor and Catchmoon aren't as popular as they are and were just because they're strong.  That innate enemy punchtrough and wide projectile hitbox combined with that strength allows them to clear out a hallway in a single blast.  Plenty of semi-auto weapons without any kind of "hit more than one thing" gimmick can reach really high damage numbers and almost none of them are popular outside specific content, like snipers for Eidolon hunting.  Take any one of them and add a "Bullets ricochet to enemies within 8m x5" and watch the popularity skyrocket.  

If a weapon can't hit multiple enemies with a pull of the trigger it will usually not be very popular, and not being popular is bad for sales.  Hence, every weapon that comes out is now AOE.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

The problem is enemies and mission mechanics.  Every weapon and frame that is popular deals with large groups of enemies very quickly.  This is partly because mission mechanics in things like survival and defense require that you have insanely high kill speed against groups, and partly because the game just throws so many enemies at you all the time that half of surviving is making sure they're all dead on arrival.

You just don't have the kill speed required with something like the Prisma Grinlock, despite it being a good weapon and fun to use.  Killing a single enemy at a time, even with a gun strong enough to one shot pretty much any singular enemy, isn't fast enough anymore unless it's being done with something like melee which is crazy fast at clearing a target and immediately hitting the next and can also technically hit more than one enemy at once as well.  When you're killing a single enemy at a time, even with a high degree of precision and speed, enemies can spawn so fast that as soon as you hit a reload (and the reload is probably atrociously long.) you have to swap off the weapon or get overrun/start losing mission progress.

Look at the stats on the Synapse.  Massive crit on a fast hitting beam weapon with (considering it's a beam weapon with higher fire rate) decent status and literally only corrosive damage for its base.  If it chained it would either be one of the most popular weapons in the game or it would have been nerfed into the ground by now, but instead some of you are going to the wiki to look up what gun I'm talking about.  Weapons like the Arca Plasmor and Catchmoon aren't as popular as they are and were just because they're strong.  That innate enemy punchtrough and wide projectile hitbox combined with that strength allows them to clear out a hallway in a single blast.  Plenty of semi-auto weapons without any kind of "hit more than one thing" gimmick can reach really high damage numbers and almost none of them are popular outside specific content, like snipers for Eidolon hunting.  Take any one of them and add a "Bullets ricochet to enemies within 8m x5" and watch the popularity skyrocket.  

If a weapon can't hit multiple enemies with a pull of the trigger it will usually not be very popular, and not being popular is bad for sales.  Hence, every weapon that comes out is now AOE.

Yes, but most of us asked for this.

Lower spawn rates were causing stagnation.

We need stronger “hero eximus” sprinkled in that require Parazon kills but we also need mods or benefits to non AoE weapons and bows that incentivize using them against hero-type enemies.

The answer is not less horde.  The answer is enemy diversity and weapon diversity to deal with it rather than AoE boomstick >all other options. 

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

47 minutes ago, (PSN)Silverback73 said:

Yes, but most of us asked for this.

Lower spawn rates were causing stagnation.

We need stronger “hero eximus” sprinkled in that require Parazon kills but we also need mods or benefits to non AoE weapons and bows that incentivize using them against hero-type enemies.

The answer is not less horde.  The answer is enemy diversity and wespon diversity to deal with it rather than AoE boomstick >all other options. 

 

Ooooh. All that “Warframe is a horde shooter”.

🤔 There’s been a lot to support that idea. The prevalance of AoE, the popularity of horde-killing Warframes. (in fact, I believe at one point the devs themselves said it, years ago)

Is there anything that disproves it?

[(PSN)Silverback73]

11 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Ooooh. All that “Warframe is a horde shooter”.

🤔 There’s been a lot to support that idea. The prevalance of AoE, the popularity of horde-killing Warframes. (in fact, I believe at one point the devs themselves said it, years ago)

Is there anything that disproves it?

I think what keeps people playing influences what you see.  DE caters to that.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, (PSN)Silverback73 said:

I think what keeps people playing influences what you see.  DE caters to that.

DE also have their own ideas, if Yareli was anything to go by. Not very popular among players though, for more reasons than just how kawaii she is.

I watched it all unfurl, players being confused as to why the newest Frame was designed a certain way. Seemed like game designers butted up against player base, and it got rough

[Zimzala]

10 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

DE also have their own ideas, if Yareli was anything to go by. Not very popular among players though, for more reasons than just how kawaii she is.

I watched it all unfurl, players being confused as to why the newest Frame was designed a certain way. Seemed like game designers butted up against player base, and it got rough

But I see that with every change DE makes and every thing they add.

One group yells "w00t!" and another yells "BOOOO!", no matter what.

And, the people who post? A tiny, non-accurate at scale, fraction of the actual player base.

 

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

― John Lydgate

[(NSW)Greybones]

18 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

But I see that with every change DE makes and every thing they add.

One group yells "w00t!" and another yells "BOOOO!", no matter what.

And, the people who post? A tiny, non-accurate at scale, fraction of the actual player base.

 

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

― John Lydgate

That’s true. But there’s this concept of “Warframe is meant to be a horde shooter” that’s constantly seen around. Like I said, there’s a lot to support the idea, including the devs themselves saying as much.

Yareli, being the latest Frame released, makes me question that; why was she not designed to be so much stronger against hordes? It could have been so easy. A few design decisions make me question, some of them recent, like why bother with single target, where’s the explosive rounds mods to turn single target into multitarget, why is Steel Path the only mode with perpetual 4 player spawnrates

edit: Warframe can definitely be a horde shooter, but I’m questioning whether we share the same definition

[SneakyErvin]

22 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

And, the people who post? A tiny, non-accurate at scale, fraction of the actual player base.

In terms of public surveys the scale of these forums and their activity would suffice as scientifically accurate to reflect the want and need of the majority. Just as a public sirvey gives a rough ballpark estimation of what the actual population thinks, how they plan on voting or what they tend to eat on avarage etc.

 

On 2021-09-02 at 11:33 PM, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

guess what, the entire game consists of 90% trash mobs, 10% bosses with invincible frames

And that is a big problem with the game. DE have a very poor way of making elite mobs distinct, something they could certainly work on. Plenty of people have good ideas on what to do with eximus units for instance. Heck, even the Acolytes are just another trash bump in the road. It is quite frankly silly when you mow them down in 2 seconds or manage to land a perfect Zarr shot that takes them out in one go.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

35 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

DE also have their own ideas, if Yareli was anything to go by. Not very popular among players though, for more reasons than just how kawaii she is.

I watched it all unfurl, players being confused as to why the newest Frame was designed a certain way. Seemed like game designers butted up against player base, and it got rough

I think Yarelli was so Whimsical in design and nature, along with the snowboard/surfboard mechanics, that some of the resistance to her is not just her skillset or kit, but the “Kawaii” (not exactly sure of the full context there) as mentioned and grind.

The best comparison I can make is Titania vs Yarelli in terms of the thematic fit in the Tennoverse.

My instinctive, visual/thematic reaction to Titania is that she fits in with the Warframe aesthetic and tone.

Yarelli causes me to balk, like they took the Grineer water guns “summer fun” theme and pushed beyond the thematic bounds of what grounds the game and immerses us in what it means to be “piloting” these killing machines.

This is why I use the term “whimsical”.

And I think this affects kit perception.

When you factor in the grind of space snowboarding that strays a fair distance from the classic combat that most of us enjoy, I think that further affects how the end product is viewed.

Luckily we have Tennogen/Deluxe to mitigate the theme/visuals somewhat.

[(NSW)Greybones]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)Silverback73 said:

I think Yarelli was so Whimsical in design and nature, along with the snowboard/surfboard mechanics, that some of the resistance to her is not just her skillset or kit, but the “Kawaii” (not exactly sure of the full context there) as mentioned and grind.

The best comparison I can make is Titania vs Yarelli in terms of the thematic fit in the Tennoverse.

My instinctive, visual/thematic reaction to Titania is that she fits in with the Warframe aesthetic and tone.

Yarelli causes me to balk, like they took the Grineer water guns “summer fun” theme and pushed beyond the thematic bounds of what grounds the game and immerses us in what it means to be “piloting” these killing machines.

This is why I use the term “whimsical”.

And I think this affects kit perception.

When you factor in the grind of space snowboarding that strays a fair distance from the classic combat that most of us enjoy, I think that further affects how the end product is viewed.

Luckily we have Tennogen/Deluxe to mitigate the theme/visuals somewhat.

🤔 It’s true that the impression was multi-layered, and that could have impacted some players’ consideration of overall kit