Feedback: Ghoul Saw

[vasRayya]

2 hours ago, PitSARVAPGaming said:

I've been keeping this to myself, but I'm pretty sure there's gonna be a Kuva Saw pretty soon. Which is why my post doesn't talk about stats. :)

DE hasn't made any kuva melee weapons yet, everything has either been a regular weapon or archgun

[--END--Rikutatis]

29 minutes ago, rachjumper said:

DE hasn't made any kuva melee weapons yet, everything has either been a regular weapon or archgun

There was the kuva shildeg, that hammer. Personally, I really hope for a kuva assault saw with better stats! Would be awesome. 

[KVenom]

Dear DE, I will be honest with you: you had great ideas, but once more you shot yourself in the leg while executing them. As you often tend to do, for some unknown reason.
(my best guess: certain people at "Balancing Departement" need to sleep at least once a week, their brains getting cooked from overworking.)

Seriously, what's with new Melee types having very horrible and clunky Stances? I honestly thought that all the backlash from Wise Razor was enough to understand player's point.

[Butcher's Revelry] has all the seeds of being a great melee stance, but it just stumbles on the Illogical decisions on the multiple sides of development:

• For example, the Riding Combo - WHY IS IT A SINGULAR HIT? The Ground Slam final strike is an absolute party pooper, it needs to be a separate hit. I mean, [Blind Justice] has a similar combo on the same input, but the Ground Slam is a separate hit, that can be not pressed if the user just wants a dash. Not to mention, the hitbox of that slam is so small, it rids the whole thing of any reason to exist in the first place. And by Small, I mean it can barely hit an enemy rubbing their face in your spinning Chitin-covered Warframe body.
• The second issue would be the whole mashing thing. Just let players to HOLD the Melee button in those combos for the maximum spin, the hitting animations are slow as heck anyway. We have a Heavy Attack button now, it shouldn't be an issue to implement that. ^{You borrowed most of the combo animations from DMC 5's Cavaliere Weapon anyway, why not borrow that feature as well?}

That would be all for QoL improvements. Cuz it's mostly the stance, really.

As for the stats, I honestly beg you for rasing Crit Chance to 20% or lower. Just anything above 15%, please. We can live with 1.9 Crit Multilier, it's fine. We can live with low base Damage, this is also fine. But just adding 2-3% to Crit Chance would really save the whole thing.

[SASoHBoss]

47 minutes ago, rachjumper said:

DE hasn't made any kuva melee weapons yet, everything has either been a regular weapon or archgun

You forgot one!

[KVenom]

2 часа назад, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 сказал:

Unfortunately stats is are all they are going to fix when it comes to this thing. I doubt DE is gonna mo cap and reanimate the combos just because they suck.  Because well almost all weapon stance animations suck, are awkward, or have janky animations.  I would honestly just throw as much attack speed as you can get with this and see if it's usable. 

Attack speed and status chance and lets see what happens.  

There is no need to mocap. Just add the same frames of getting on the saw, but in reverse order. And make the Ground Slam a separate hit of the combo. Simple as that.

[DrivaMain]

1 hour ago, KVenom said:

As for the stats, I honestly beg you for rasing Crit Chance to 20% or lower. Just anything above 15%, please. We can live with 1.9 Crit Multilier, it's fine. We can live with low base Damage, this is also fine. But just adding 2-3% to Crit Chance would really save the whole thin

The low stats could be they are making room for a variant. 

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

Unfortunately stats is are all they are going to fix when it comes to this thing. I doubt DE is gonna mo cap and reanimate the combos just because they suck.

I dunno about that. They made a lot of fancy animations and effects for Yareli, then threw some stats together without any thoughts, so prioritizing animations over stats seems right up their alley.

[KVenom]

1 час назад, DrivaMain сказал:

The low stats could be they are making room for a variant. 

Yeah, but how many months or even years are we gonna have to wait for that variant?

[(XBOX)PsyCrowPrime]

Personally as far as the stance go I think switching the combos around d would feel more natural. Switching rip n ride with reciprocator. And switch ghoul rush with rectus wraith. 

[TylerFreeman]

Ghoulsaw buff wen DE?

[Thural]

Can we also take a moment to appreciate that DE somehow managed to release a stance with the lowest %/s for every combo category?

To look at the extremes, the neutral and forward combos have a quarter of the %/s of sovereign outcast, while also having way worse aoe and forced procs.

[Kainosh]

10 hours ago, KVenom said:

^{You borrowed most of the combo animations from DMC 5's Cavaliere Weapon anyway, why not borrow that feature as well?}

Don't have the saw yet.....  Does it multihit like Cavaliere?

I'm disappointed if it doesn't.   Saws are for continuous damage.

[(PSN)waddie]

It launched with a 4 star riven disposition, so I’m pretty sure they know how powerful it is(n’t). It’s basically the Skana for the assault saw category, adjust your expectations accordingly.

I’m fine with the stance being slow and ponderous, swinging that thing around should feel slower than basically any other weapon in the game. My issue is that it often feels like it’s not connecting with anything. If the wind-up is going to take that long, the impact needs to be devastating.

[Acersecomic]

1 hour ago, Kainosh said:

Don't have the saw yet.....  Does it multihit like Cavaliere?

I'm disappointed if it doesn't.   Saws are for continuous damage.

It does not.

[(XBOX)maledicus GER]

Hello Community, hello DE,

i really like the new Ghoul Saw and want to use it alot BUT the rings/circle effect that occurrs with every single attack while moving forward is just annoying! It fills the whole screen. Pls@DE remove it completeley or change it to a less annoying effect or give the option to turn it off. Its is completeley overdone.

Hopefully,

Maledicus.

[DaMasque]

Both these combos are kind of annoying...

Personally I feel that they should've added a Forward Hold-E for current Forward E combo and a Right-Click Forward Hold-E for Saw riding.

Nothing in the combo flows together and that's probably my main grip against this thing.

[Verreater]

Its Energy Colour, so if you don't like the Energy Colour you can just paint it black.

[Verreater]

Ghoulsaw's stats, while low, are perfectly servicable. And yet it drastically underperforms even compared to similar weapons. I am aware that the weapon has a perfect follow through, which makes it strong against huge crowds. But the main reason you get surrounded with this weapon in the first place is that it is too slow at killing single enemies,

 

Why is that? The stance is very bad.
I'm not talking about the animations or the usability. Using it is really fun and I like how the weapon handles.
No, the multipliers are awfully weak. Ghoulsaw's damage is way too low to justify having multipliers this weak. Its base damage is very similar to much faster weapon types.
(For example: Ether Sword. Also an MR7 weapon with 192 base damage, 70% of which are slash. It has much worse critical stats and only slightly better status. And yet, it performs much better than Ghoulsaw with the exact same build that favors Ghoulsaw.)

Rictus' Wraith (Standing): 300%+100%+200%+200%
For a total of 800%. That looks nice if we forget that it takes over 4s to complete the whole combo.

Ghoul Rush (Moving): 100%+100%+100%+100%
For a total of 400%. All attacks are identical, and the full combo takes about 3s to complete.

Reciprocater (Blocking): 2x50%+100%+2x200%+2x100%+200%+300%
For a total of 1300%. It is also very slow, almost needing 6 seconds, but it is the strongest combo.

Rip 'N Ride (Blocking+Moving): 100%+100%+200%
For a total of 400%. Pathetically weak, but it is just the gap closer.

 

Lets compare it to Sovereign Outcast, commonly considered the best stance.

Rogue Edict (Standing): 200%+5*50%+200%+100%+300%+4*200%+2*300%
For a total of 2450%. Takes slightly less than 3s to complete. I don't even have to go on, the issue is apparent. The attack that deals 4x200% damage forces a slash proc on every hit. This single attack alone is stronger than any full combo of Butcher's Revelry.

 

In order to not be so harsh, lets only compare it to only a decent stance, Iron Phoenix for Swords.

Standing: 300%+200%+200%
Total of 700%, very similar to Rictus' Wraith. However, it only takes 1.4 seconds to complete! Also the first hit already forces a slash proc.

Moving: 100%+200%
Total of 300%. Very similar to Ghoul Rush, as you can also use it while running freely. However! Again, it only takes 0.7s to complete a full two hit combo. This makes it many times stronger than Ghoul Rush.

Blocking+Moving: 100%+300%+400%
Total of 800%. Also a gap closer, but does not reach that far. However again, much faster and stronger.

Even compared to Heavy Blade Stances, like Tempo Royale, it is very weak.

It then also does not compete as a Heavy Attack weapon, as Heavy Attack weapons like 2h Nikanas have a full 600% forced slash proc. Ghoulsaw only gets a total of 300%, while the second heavy attack does not even proc slash.

 

So how to fix it? Higher multipliers and/or more multihits. For example, each attack of Ghoul Rush should hit at least twice to make it catch up in damage, which would also make it feel more like a saw. Every combo of the stance is currently awfully weak and needs a buff. (Alternatively, Ghoulsaw's base damage could be raised by a ridiculous degree to compensate for the low multipliers.) Very fun to use though, so a nice big good job to the dev team for that c:

[krc473]

3 minutes ago, Verreater said:

No, the multipliers are awfully weak. Ghoulsaw's damage is way too low to justify having multipliers this weak. Its base damage is very similar to much faster weapon types.

Where have you been testing it? I found it seemed to be performing fine on Star chart level enemies and the RJ missions I took it on. I figure there is no harm in buffing it though - I feel like an actual saw should be much stronger, even going so far as to remove limbs/body parts for an instant kill (added as a low chance on stance attacks).

 

The weapon does feel mostly like it was intended as a gimmick. It is fun to play with, regardless of strength.

[Verreater]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb (PSN)waddie:

It launched with a 4 star riven disposition, so I’m pretty sure they know how powerful it is(n’t). It’s basically the Skana for the assault saw category, adjust your expectations accordingly.

I’m fine with the stance being slow and ponderous, swinging that thing around should feel slower than basically any other weapon in the game. My issue is that it often feels like it’s not connecting with anything. If the wind-up is going to take that long, the impact needs to be devastating.

Ghoulsaw being relatively weak stat-wise is fine.

The stance being slow is also fine.

What isn't fine is that the slow stance has the multipliers of a stance 4 times as fast.

[AreeSoothsayer]

I kinda wish that if we held down the attack button while holding guard and pressing foreward we could keep riding the Ghoul Saw, once we release the button then it would slam.

It's not just because I want to go into one of the open worlds and ride around on a chain saw motorunicycle.

[Rawbeard]

wait... wait a minute. wait. just wait!

are you telling us a gimmick weapon in Warframe is actually kinda bad?

MIND. BLOWN!

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

17 hours ago, KVenom said:

There is no need to mocap. Just add the same frames of getting on the saw, but in reverse order. And make the Ground Slam a separate hit of the combo. Simple as that.

 

15 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

I dunno about that. They made a lot of fancy animations and effects for Yareli, then threw some stats together without any thoughts, so prioritizing animations over stats seems right up their alley.

You guys have more faith than I do.  Have they ever fixed the animations of a stance.  I honestly don't know. But I feel like the answer is no based on the state of most melee stances. 

But throwing out more CC, SC, or forced procs on the combos seems really easy. However, even that I won't hold my breath for.

[V2lkyr]

6 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

wait... wait a minute. wait. just wait!

are you telling us a gimmick weapon in Warframe is actually kinda bad?

MIND. BLOWN!

Not an excuse for the stance being bad,considering more assault saws are supposed to come out in the future

[Verreater]

Well, pretty much anything performs well against star chart enemies and maybe even slightly tougher ones like Railjack, especially if it is a melee.

But bringing it to Steel Path feels painful.
I frequently use the above mentioned very similar Ether Sword without real issue in Steel Path, which performs rather well with a good build. Ghoulsaw will still kill enemies, but is very slow at doing so. Ether Sword performs a lot better, purely because the stance is much faster but has very similar multipliers.

 

 

What is the difference between a gimmick weapon and a real weapon?
Hell, Glaives are technically one big gimmick and they are actually good, same as Gunblades. They can be fun and usable weapons.