The impact AoE nerf could have

[-EPECb-]

6 часов назад, (PSN)Madurai-Prime сказал:

Not everyone plays through steam. There are 3 consoles and people that don't start the game through steam.

I am sure that the situation is similar on other platforms. Major part of players play through Steam, so this statistic can be safely taken as the main one. 

В 10.08.2022 в 02:05, m_a_r_c_h_ сказал:

Wukong is good at most things. therefore the most balanced frame they have. Most players can take him to Level 140ish steel path which is also middle of the road hard, so he is balanced. What's your definition of balanced, the frame that can only do one thing well?

I'm sorry that you don't see the obvious things. But it doesn't matter anymore. DE will fix this frame and this is absolutely the right decision on their part.

(I'm sorry, I didn't see this commentary)

[Marvelous_A]

Wukong and AoE weapons are undeniably the outliers in the current Warframe.

Most warframes and weapons have no issue to survive the game but few can compete in terms of easiness and efficiency in killing stuff. That's why they have to be brought in line.

[George_PPS]

There are so many posts about this "too easy", "not challenging", "too powerful" recently. How many of you will actually spend time to something starting from your own loadouts first? No matter how much DE tries to nerf and destroy any meta weapons/frames/abilities at anytime, there will be always players complaining about it. You have power creep issues in your own loadouts? Or someone else's? If your own loadouts are too strong, take these solid and real steps that work instantly and every time:

1. Play Solo or Recruit those who want to make missions harder. Or recruit newer players to your missions. 
2. Equip just 5, 4, 3 even just 2 Mods for every item in your loadouts.
3. Use the weakest elemental damage types against each faction. 
  For example, equip full magnetic damage types in all weapons in Grineer missions.
4. Rank essential Mods to just Rank 4 or **** it just Rank 0-2
5. Use ONLY the most obscure abilities of every warframe in all missions. 
6. Equip a Dragon Key
7. No Arcanes
8. Finally, hate AoE or hate certain frames? Don't use it. 

Please feel free to add more advice and recommendations to help these players. If you want some weaker weapons/warframes to get stronger, ask DE to buff them. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

They are gonna say "I shouldn't have to, DE should do it."

 

[KitMeHarder]

2 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Why are you making it so personal around Pablo?

Because he's the one who publically shared it. I know DE is a team, but when you post something on your personal Twitter account I'm going to frame it in context to said person. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Pablo now the head of balance since Scott left?

2 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

How can you claim how simply he views stats?

I can only go off what he's said in his tweets, and how it comes off that he's made light of the situation. Could I have been less degrading (I don't think I was that bad)? Yes. But I hold Pablo in high regard, and once things like this are shared publically, there's usually very little time before a decision is finalized. And in my experience with stuff like this, there's a higher chance of success by "making a splash" than to be nice and "play by the book".

2 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Like Pablo seemed to know that Ivara gets used in Spy a lot.

He could very well just as likely be anecdotal here (if he didn't provide proof). I'm not doubting that DE might be able to see that breakdown, but I'm not inclined to think the devs can't be subjective or mistaken simply because they're a higher power.

And really this just boils down to it doesn't make sense to think that if they have to means to differentiate between frame and specter usage internally, that they would let the bug remain in our profiles. It just doesn't instill me with confidence.

2 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

When Rebecca talked about Wukong being used a lot in like Sortie content, was she just making it up? Maybe she is too simple too?

I did not watch the Brozime podcast, I made all my claims from his tweets (and only read the podcast synopsis someone posted to see if specters were mentioned). Was Reb on the podcast? (And I never called anyone "simple", I just pointed out that in science, outliers that large are usually a red flag that your sampling method is flawed. But from everything I read, Pablo didn't address it in any way except to jokingly say he over-tuned Wukong.)

2 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I'm confident I am always right. Does that work?

I am confident that my anecdotal "evidence" is compelling enough that people with the means to gain actual proof would see merit in doing so, in the event I might be right. There's a big difference between just being confident, and being confident in an observable phenomena you don't quite have the ability to completely prove.

And really that was all I was trying to do, as I don't have the time or tools to do otherwise.

2 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Making claims about what Pablo shouldn't tweet or is wrong for tweeting

I mean, I don't believe I said anything like this.

---------------

And yes, thank you for being less combative this time, I hope this post comes off the same.

[Slayer-.]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

They are gonna say "I shouldn't have to, DE should do it."

 

Enough said.

[Tyreaus]

Most people who say they want harder content in Warframe want more engaging content. Unfortunately, self-imposed challenges work funny with engagement. It's different when you're challenging yourself because you can just turn easy mode back on at any point.

EDIT: It's kind of the whole premise behind One Punch Man, now that I think about it....

Also you might want a footnote for #6. Decaying key with shield gating and all.

[Xaero]

24 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

No matter how much DE tries to nerf and destroy any meta weapons/frames/abilities at anytime, there will be always players complaining about it.

The point is not to eliminate all complaints, but lower their amount to a point where topic about poor challenge the game offers isn't discussed every couple minutes, and it's pretty much achievable. The gameplay needs to have its horde component replaced with less in numbers yet deadlier enemies, and move from RNG on top of RNG to guaranteed rewards that are challenging to obtain.

[Reidenshi]

The only real challenge in this game is rad proc missions. This is how I feel in these missions:

[0_The_F00l]

36 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

There are so many posts about this "too easy", "not challenging", "too powerful" recently. How many of you will actually spend time to something starting from your own loadouts first? 

I do.

36 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

No matter how much DE tries to nerf and destroy any meta weapons/frames/abilities at anytime, there will be always players complaining about it. 

The thing about live service games is that things keep changing , nerfs and buffs along with new developments are expected. 

The objective is not to stop , its to add variety and engagement.

38 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

You have power creep issues in your own loadouts? Or someone else's? 

Both.

39 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

If your own loadouts are too strong, take these solid and real steps that work instantly and every time:

Uhuh , let's see.

40 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

1. Play Solo or Recruit those who want to make missions harder. Or recruit newer players to your missions. 

Play solo in a co op game , sure sure.

And how exactly can I be certain that said players will actually do that? So it's not fool proof is it ?

Can I get a matchmaking option that says "Not for near brain-dead afk strat users?" If that can be done i will be using that definitely.

Also can I also request those that do not have my preferences to NOT be near me ? Thanks.

42 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

2. Equip just 5, 4, 3 even just 2 Mods for every item in your loadouts.

Sure , this is definitely challenging in the star chart, i do manage to push through. It reminds me of when I was a new player , it's nostalgic.

45 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

3. Use the weakest elemental damage types against each faction. 
  For example, equip full magnetic damage types in all weapons in Grineer missions.

Been there done that, differences are minor as the presence of any element is better than none at all.

46 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

4. Rank essential Mods to just Rank 4 or **** it just Rank 0-2

Can you tell me what you consider essential mods ? 

47 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

5. Use ONLY the most obscure abilities of every warframe in all missions. 

What would you consider obscure ? Do you have a list ? 

48 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

6. Equip a Dragon Key

Which one ?

49 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

7. No Arcanes

Sure ,

49 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

8. Finally, hate AoE or hate certain frames? Don't use it. 

That's not even something you have to say really. Wish I could put up a block where i don't get matched with with players that use them though. That would be swell.

50 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

Please feel free to add more advice and recommendations to help these players. If you want some weaker weapons/warframes to get stronger, ask DE to buff them. 

More matchmaking options really , where I could toggle certain filters so i don't need to wait in recruit for my preferred team would be nice.

 

[AntonyBreamPrime]

I am of the opinion that the only time Power Fantasy and Balance are in a state of Yin and Yang is when everything is either OP or everything is UP.

Infinite and equally OP/UP options with no "this is a better choice" options.

 

Cirran 

Edit: To add quotes.

[vanaukas]

I can't understand how many times you'll do this kind of thread, you'll recieve the same answers over and over again.

We all have to adjust to the changes DE decides to do, if they are good we will adapt, if they aren't good we can provide feedback and as a last instance it's up to them if they want to take that feedback or not.

[trst]

I already play solo and use loadouts that actually benefit from using overpowered upgrades instead of using them just to see larger numbers.

But none of that solves the problems of co-op being dead and the perception that the game is nothing but grind. There is no reason to play with others, unless you want to leech, when one player can choose to forcibly solo the mission for everyone else. And when the game allows players to optimize gameplay out of the game to the extent that we have then you're left with nothing but a grind. Neither of these issues are solved by telling players to play differently.

[Surbusken]

That's the misconception right there, it's precisely not a question of notepad stats.

 

People are asking for complexity and variety in combat, rather than 'just spam e' or just spam abilites all across the map, go to extraction.

Which is why they bring up Dark Souls to illustrate the point.

 

One thing you could do, is giving each weapon class a purpose - so for instance overguard can be taken out by operators, have NPCs that can only be headshot by projectiles and so on.

That way players are having to actually pay attention and dead items would come to life. You'd have a reason to carry a pistol or reason to use operator.

Right now we have primary and secondary guns, but why though? They do the same.

 

... not that anyone would like that idea, it's just an illustration of what people are talking about, when asking for more gameplay.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb George_PPS:

There are so many posts about this "too easy", "not challenging", "too powerful" recently. How many of you will actually spend time to something starting from your own loadouts first? No matter how much DE tries to nerf and destroy any meta weapons/frames/abilities at anytime, there will be always players complaining about it. You have power creep issues in your own loadouts? Or someone else's? If your own loadouts are too strong, take these solid and real steps that work instantly and every time:

1. Play Solo or Recruit those who want to make missions harder. Or recruit newer players to your missions. 
2. Equip just 5, 4, 3 even just 2 Mods for every item in your loadouts.
3. Use the weakest elemental damage types against each faction. 
  For example, equip full magnetic damage types in all weapons in Grineer missions.
4. Rank essential Mods to just Rank 4 or **** it just Rank 0-2
5. Use ONLY the most obscure abilities of every warframe in all missions. 
6. Equip a Dragon Key
7. No Arcanes
8. Finally, hate AoE or hate certain frames? Don't use it. 

Please feel free to add more advice and recommendations to help these players. If you want some weaker weapons/warframes to get stronger, ask DE to buff them. 

why so much effort?
just start a new account.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

11 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Because he's the one who publically shared it.

 

There might be a misunderstanding here. There is personal in in a specific sense. Like we know some people who are a part of DE, like Rebecca, and Steve and Pablo. Then there is personal in referencing someones character. Like say to contrast professional and personal. We are encouraged to criticise DE professionally, or cordially, but to avoid personal criticism. Also yes, Pablo is now in Scotts old position. That is his role now. 

 

18 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

I can only go off what he's said in his tweets, and how it comes off that he's made light of the situation.

 

You can also reserve judgement or practice caution with accusations. For example, I could claim you are only saying all of this because you only pick and play Wukong. Except that would be presumptuous and unfair of me. You seem reasonable, and I have no idea or clue about what Warframes you play, nor do I know your motivations or sincerity. So I'd consider your sincere and genuine, because thats a good approach for forums. I might be sarcastic here or there, but not in a personal way. Plus I can always ask you questions and seek clarification. So with Pablo, you made a few claims, and your justification is "thats how he seems?" but thats still your interpretation, and you don't really emphasis that. You instead put a lot more emphasis on claims you arrive at from interpretation, but your claims are framed in a way that makes them seem objective and factual. 

Maybe to put it another way, imagine if I said that I know Pablo hates mammals, and thinks that fish are the superior animal. Then someone asked me why? Then I said, its because thats how he comes off to me, in his tweets. Like, that can be an interpretation, but how can I know? There is also implicit judgement there as well, because I don't actually know or demonstrate that Pablo hates mammals, but if I go around claiming he does, people who don't know what he said or know him, may actually believe me. 

 

32 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

'm not inclined to think the devs can't be subjective or mistaken simply because they're a higher power.

 

Believing that Devs can't be mistake or subjective isn't the same notion as believing (or disbelieving) that they can have more knowledge and understanding of internal development within the game they work on, meaning its possible Devs can make errors, but also that they can understand and know more about a game, from the internal data they have access to, than a player without that internal data. I mean, if you wish to claim that us players have as much data and knowledge as the people working on the game, and everything is just anecdotal (which I don't think you are) but either way... 

 

38 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

And really this just boils down to it doesn't make sense to think that if they have to means to differentiate between frame and specter usage internally, that they would let the bug remain in our profiles. It just doesn't instill me with confidence.

 

Yeah, I think this is a fair point to make, and probably the crux/contention point, and can focus on this more specifically if you wish. We'd both agree that Warframe has a lot of bugs? Both traditionally and ongoing? For myself? Its easy to reconcile the idea our profiles are fixed to be accurate, because DE probably doesn't consider it a high priority, for us to have the most accurate data. Just an approximation is fine. I have been active in a few of the Spectre may contribute to your profile issue threads that have popped up across different websites. AOE discussions, fan art of Wisp's tata's, or Wisps booty, will get way more discussion, upvotes, engagement and concern from players. Not as many people care that our profiles may be a little off or inaccurate. Then among those that care, an even smaller amount will care a significant amount. 

Why would DE want to spend time and resources trying to make our profiles more accurate? Alternatively, the data around usage and other tracking data, they get is likely to be more comprehensive, and important to them for internal reasons, including pricing around premium currency, gauging new player experiences, spotting developing trends, seeing difficulty wall spikes, progression blockers (like how they knew that Protea's quest had a relatively high fail rate compared to other quest missions.. is that just anecdote as well? There is a lot of information that DE has fed us over the years, that we aren't privy to directly. Our profiles happen to be something we can access, but again, its an assumption to believe that they represent or are indicative of what DE is looking at. Like even the end of mission screen shows data that our profile doesn't. It also shows us for just the mission, and not for all missions ever, nor can we specify or filter for more details. I remember there is also a tool that we can go to, that shows even more info from our profiles, including stuff like our Trade history and how much Plat was involved and details like that. So a lot of different types of data collection and viewing... and one would assume that DE doesn't have one thats strictly for internal purposes? 

If it doesn't fill you with confidence though, that is fine. I wouldn't try to convince you otherwise, but I would rather DE fix the Stacking bug which is still an issue on console. Plus, I also assume that they get to see way more data than any of us will ever get to. Otherwise, I would have to assume that all the times, DE has ever gave us insight on data from the game, that know from internal sources/internal data collecting was wrong/purely anecdotal. Just because we haven't seen proof first hand. Then at that point Occams Razor might as well apply. 

 

58 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

I did not watch the Brozime podcast, I made all my claims from his tweets (and only read the podcast synopsis someone posted to see if specters were mentioned). Was Reb on the podcast?

 

Oh, I am referencing something much older. I think over a year ago. It was Brozime still, i can't remember if it was an interview or a conversation he had with Rebecca. He was initially surprised by Wukong's popularity, and had some speculation about why his usage might be so high, like was it the ability to do fast Captures and Spy? Was it the AFK factor, for Defence? Then he was informed by Rebecca it was a combination of things, but that popularity in Sortie was significant. I remember the context better than the specific date. I do think it was around the 2020 stats though, rather than the 2021 stats, but I may be wrong. I tried a quick search to find the video, but some of them are long and other results show up too. 

 

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

I am confident that my anecdotal "evidence" is compelling enough that people with the means to gain actual proof would see merit in doing so, in the event I might be right. There's a big difference between just being confident, and being confident in an observable phenomena you don't quite have the ability to completely prove.

And really that was all I was trying to do, as I don't have the time or tools to do otherwise.

 

Your confidence in that context is irrelevant though. Its the strength of the evidence that matters. Unless you are dealing with people who are swayed by confidence. In which case, the evidence wouldn't matter and could be poor. Its like a sports fan or pick up artist trying to argue gravity with a scientist. 

I agree with your latter two points. There is also a difference in being confident in something, and demonstrating that by erring on the side of caution and being transparent, even if that makes showing some doubt or or hesitation in an unknown, and demonstrating confidence by way of insistence, vehemence, belief and conviction. For some, the latter sends red flags. 

 

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

I mean, I don't believe I said anything like this.

 

I mean this part "I just want to put it out there that Pablo was in the wrong for making that tweet (based on what we know). He simply looked at the numbers, " You claim he is in the wrong for making that tweet no? You justify it, but is your justification demonstrable? Again though, this might be a misunderstanding of sorts. I would extend the courtesy that you don't actually harbour ill thoughts towards Pablo, or anything like that. I just think the framing is a little off. In the sense, your draw a lot of conclusions, just from what you think he seems, to be, or how he seems to come off, emphasis on seems. Like there is a lot, intent or otherwise when you imply that someone was wrong because they were being uncritical, and viewing something simply. Your basically insinuating that Pablo doesn't know how to do his job. Like if lacks the ability to question the data he gets from the game, and doesn't question anything? How is the game suppose to be balanced?

Again, I know you are not saying that, but therein the nuance and issues around implications and claims around how people "come off" in their tweets/"going off what they say". Plausible deniability and all that. 

 

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

And yes, thank you for being less combative this time, I hope this post comes off the same.

 

Cheers, I appreciate it. You don't come off as combative. I feel like I have a better understanding of your position and concerns now, and if you still wish to reply, think we'll probably be near the end of the conversation. Isn't too much left really. If I had to guess, its probably just that we have different expectations on DE's priorities with what they should fix and address. You lack confidence (correct me if I am wrong) in the idea that since we have bugged profiles, that DE has better internal data to go on? Where as, I don't think DE would prioritise fixing an issue that isn't going to make them money in the long term, or appease and delight a significant number of players, to keep fanbase approval high within its fluctuations. Also, overlapping with money. Which I am fine disagreeing with. 

Cheers! 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

9. Play with your feet. I mean the game, not like... using your hands to play with your own feet. Use your feet on the mouse and keyboard or controller. Its hard to play Warframe with people judging you for being weird. Unless thats your thing, then its still hard. 

10. If you finish a mission with less than zero accuracy, you have to sell a Prime Warframe. Now you really have to consider your shots. Or take Vauban. Or Mag. 

11. Recruit people from Region Chat. Only the people that really disgust you though, and seem like they should be banned. Playing an actual game with them will be all sorts of mental burden and general difficulty. 

12. No Arcane. You absolutely can not watch the Netflix hot series Arcane, set in League of Legends. If you already have, well you already failed this self imposed challenge. 

13. Use the weakest element against enemies. Meaning Heart. Yeah Ma-Ti was a punk, with no actual offensive power or use, and he weight down the entire team, and is the reason Captain Planet resorted to drinking. 

14. Hate a certain AOE or Warframe? Then force yourself to play it until its your number one most used in your Profile. Then message random people to check out your profile. Doing this will make you want to quit the game and you'll probably study more, work more, exercise more, take up a new hobby like Puppeting and be infinitely happier. 

Wait what are we doing again?

[KitMeHarder]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

So with Pablo, you made a few claims, and your justification is "thats how he seems?" but thats still your interpretation

By this I meant how he phrased his tweet.

"So yeah, of course it was Wukong! wonder who made him that OP?!"

Almost everything is just personal interpretations. To me his tweet comes off as a self-deprecating joke, so I feel it's reasonable to think he's making light of it. (He also brought attention to the most used frame, and then took an hour before he actually shared it was Wukong for some reason.) 

24 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Why would DE want to spend time and resources trying to make our profiles more accurate?

I'm not saying they should. But if they're going to let the bug persist, then they have a duty of clarifying that it doesn't affect their internal data... as they just publically announced that said data is being used for a coming balancing decision. (And if they aren't differentiating the clone's usage from Wukong's internally, that's a BIIIG bug with big (undeserving) consequences.)

18 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I mean this part

My mistake, I forgot my phrasing here (especially without the precursor).

[Veridian]

The average player doesn't want a challenge.

The average player doesn't even want to contribute.

The average player is perfectly fine leeching, a new "trend" in gaming, since a lot of games have come out that give you the opportunity to do nothing but tweak your character and still somewhat succeed - battle royals, idle mobile games, autoplay options...etc. and WF gives that option with group play.

It was usually only in ESO, but these days at least 1-2 people in the team will be off in a random location on the map, doing 0% damage for the entire mission and don't even get me started on Zariman or RJ.

The vocal minority (me included) wants some more challenge, but with the way gaming is devolving I don't have my hopes up.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I do. personally though I find there's a sweet spot around level 60-70: it's still a power fantasy, but I still have to watch my back because enemies actually hit hard. Steel path is ok but feels more like a gear check than anything else: meta loadouts are still meta, while taking anything just for fun is actively punished. 

the main concern should be "is the reward high enough". I'll gladly wade through level 100-200 enemies if I'm getting something worth the trouble, but what is worth it? currently, not a lot...

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

12 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Almost everything is just personal interpretations.

 

There are degrees though too. Like personal interpretations that draw on assumptions to form positive statements or claims that leave little room for other possibilities, or interpretations that are neutral and acknowledge room for interpretation or different meanings or possibilities. Or basically, some people can assume more than others, and to be clear, I am not saying thats a bad thing. Humans in generally, we navigate reality by making a lot of assumptions every day, but we can also acknowledge this, and practice caution where applicable or beneficial. 

I agree too, about a self depreciating joke from Pablo. Just not the idea he looked simply or uncritically. For myself, I wouldn't know one way or the other. I might be wrong, but I'd probably assume he considered such issues, since the way he answered Brozime's questions, tended to be avoiding simple one note answers and replies, and cautioning qualifiers. Which is usually a sign a person is making effort to provide context, and more of the nuance and intricacy that may exist. Plus clarified when speaking generally. A more favourable interpretation sure.

 

26 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

then they have a duty of clarifying that it doesn't affect their internal data... as they just publically announced that said data is being used for a coming balancing decision.

 

Yeah I agree with that. It would be nice. I don't think they will, but would be nice. Maybe in the next Dev Stream, some of us can try to ask them, if they are aware of such bugs and whether their data may be flawed because of it. The implications of this bug not being accounted for, could be pretty serous and negative to their idea of balance.

 

29 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

My mistake, I forgot my phrasing here (especially without the precursor).

 

No worries, all good! 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

In all seriousness, I think the steel path and regular versions of the new zariman missions were a step in the right direction. They seem more fun and challenging at the same time. 

I love the tileset and the whole story behind getting to finally see our past and stuff. 

And rewards are pretty good too, like Molt Augmented, which let's Xaku reach full armor strip just by an arcane.

[Voltage]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

They are gonna say "I shouldn't have to, DE should do it."

Nobody plays a looter shooter to gradually use less gear over time. Isn't that common sense?

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

3 hours ago, vanaukas said:

I can't understand how many times you'll do this kind of thread, you'll recieve the same answers over and over again.

We all have to adjust to the changes DE decides to do, if they are good we will adapt, if they aren't good we can provide feedback and as a last instance it's up to them if they want to take that feedback or not.

Oh yeah always the same user with the same "solutions" they made a thread one day and also put that on other threads about difficulty.

 

[Numerikuu]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Oh yeah always the same user with the same "solutions" they made a thread one day and also put that on other threads about difficulty.

 

I thought this thread was giving me Déjà vu.