Riven dispo changes are gonna be an oof. Also rip prisma lenz rivens.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

The cynical side of me feels like DE used to do this bait and switch esque thing with rivens on purpose.

Release a weapon like gram which is trash nobody uses so then gram prime comes out with crazy good stats and now suddenly rivens for it are super duper strong and super duper popular. And people want them super duper badly because they're super duper strong. 

So people buy plat or grind trade chat for plat or both, over this thing, but DE eventually has to nerf the dispo heavily. 

I dont think the craze would have been so intense if it started out with lower dispo.

 

But then DE eventually changed how they would update dispo. New weapons would start at weak dispo and *maybe* get buffed. The weapons that "needed" dispo nerfs eventually got nerfed enough they could stop. It eventually got to the point where every prime access i could read the disposition update notes and see generally things more or less got slightly buffed or ***slightly*** nerfed.

 

And its been that way for a long time.

 

But here we are with incarnon weapons and alot of them are for weapons that have strong disposition or at least average, which is still stronger than what "meta" weapons are "supposed to get".

 

So presumably whats gonna happen is people are gonna get all hyped over rivens for these incarnon weapons and then eventually DE is gonna start handing out nerfs and i cant help but feel like its manipulative. 

I dont have access to DE's data but im willing to bet less people would wanna invest in lex rivens if it had 1/5 dispo from the jump.

I wish DE would have just made incarnons "new variants" or something like theyve been doing with primes or just make new weapons entirely.

 

And on top of that they just "accidentally" release prisma lenz with the same riven dispo as lenz and then "fix the ui bug" and it goes from 3/5 to 1/5. It was more than a ui change the stats are actually affected. So rip anyone who bought an expensive shiny new lenz riven. Lol. I knew that might happen but you think everyone did?

 

All the veteran players are probably gonna read this and think "yeah duh we know this" but how many players have been around since tiberon prime got released. 

 

I have a lot of rivens. Ive made my share of plat trading and selling rivens. Im familiar with how to work trades to my favor. I have or have had plenty of "god rolls". 

Idk. I just feel icky that "players getting hyped over rivens that eventually get nerfed hard" hasnt been a thing in awhile and now all of a sudden that trend seems to be coming back. Why? Was that more profitable? Or is DE really just so clumsy with riven implementation that its just an oopsie and nobody should question it.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Just another thing that fell through the cracks. There's a lot of them actually. Hotfix needed. If you've been here long enough, you'll notice Riven Desposition is weird. Certain weapons needs them while there's other that deserves them. But DE have this genius idea of not only determine riven desposition by popularity, but by internal discussion. Meaning if DE feels like a weapon to needs a higher desposition, they will increase it. Otherwise they will lower it. There are weapons I have been waiting for years now just to have a higher desposition, Pox comes to mind, but never seen it on the list ever. 

[Lilybun]

I'm holding out hope that vectis prime is stuck at its current 2/5 disposition not because the 0.74% usage and power warrants it but because they're planning to give it an incarnon down the line.

The gun absolutely needs negative mag size to use primed chamber and currently you need to high roll your riven to get enough reduction or settle for depleted reload. Most rolls at current dispo end up only around -20% mag size which isnt enough which is obviously very annoying and surely not an oversight or an accident.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Lilybun

[trst]

I'd more believe it that DE expects players to not pretend that disposition doesn't change and what governs it.

Everyone should be prepared for Incarnon weapon dispositions to drop and for their Riven prices to spike regardless. While at the same time these weapons getting Incarnon upgrades means they don't even need Rivens.

It doesn't matter if the base Lex or even the Lex Prime gets "nerfed" from a disposition drop. As the Incarnon upgrade makes it stronger than any "god roll" Riven would even at max disposition.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

I can't find it, but DE said there is a specific max amount they will nerf riven dispositions at one time meaning a latron riven shouldn't go from 1.30 to 0.90 in one round of dispo changes. We will have to see though.

Edited May 25, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna

[Slayer-.]

My Lex is years old, a great gun got me through the game before all this power/meta was around well in my eyes at least, and it's got a 4/5 dispo so wouldn't be impressed if it got nuked because it's the gun of the month.

I have rivens for most of my inventory of weapons because I find them fun on older weapons to try out, juggling the 180 cap can be a pain but meh I deal.

 I'm still trying to work out why DE seems to have done a backflip on nerfing popular stuff and give us these OP weapons which are fun I'm wondering why, for now, I'm just gonna roll with it.

 

[CosmicHermitCrab]

Tbh, the whole riven system itself is a nub trap. You don't need god-roll Rivens, even decent ones, to do later-game DPS. I keep persuading newcomers to not worry about Rivens too much, because there are so many upgrade mechanics in Warframe, and Rivens is just one of them.

Rivens are basically the only Gacha system in Warframe atm, and it benefits DE the most.

I personally just take advantage of this said pattern against other riven traders, it's not like Warframe has a true competitive endgame anyways...

I saw this problem since "season 1" when they first announced the Riven system, just saying...

Too many meta-slaves in Warframe still highly respect this basic loot box mechanic of Rivens, smh.

Edited May 25, 2023 by CosmicHermitCrab

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I can see what you are saying. Though. also think that consumers should be smarter and wiser over such systems as well. Emphasis on as well, I think its important to question and consider such systems too, frequently and diligently. To players/consumers though and not getting carried away with hype/illusions. As in don't spend exorbitant amounts of what can be roughly converted and exchanged for a real life currency, or even time, if you think you'll end up disappointed. Don't buy into others hype, don't get too carried away with your own. If a person does want to engage with such systems, they should know and be aware of risks, and have a sort of personal guideline that they follow. 

[CosmicHermitCrab]

1 minute ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I can see what you are saying. Though. also think that consumers should be smarter and wiser over such systems as well. Emphasis on as well, I think its important to question and consider such systems too, frequently and diligently. To players/consumers though and not getting carried away with hype/illusions. As in don't spend exorbitant amounts of what can be roughly converted and exchanged for a real life currency, or even time, if you think you'll end up disappointed. Don't buy into others hype, don't get too carried away with your own. If a person does want to engage with such systems, they should know and be aware of risks, and have a sort of personal guideline that they follow. 

Yeah, that's sorta how the riven system is balanced, IMO. The very OP rivens are only worth it for a period of time, then nerf comes...meh
Folks need to stop treating rivens like permanent upgrades, they are more of a luxury side grade. Similar to how opticor vandal is a "side grade" from normal opticor.

But yeah, you have a point...the system atm is a bit predatory for the consumers of Warframe.

[---Merchant---]

4 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Tbh, the whole riven system itself is a nub trap. You don't need god-roll Rivens, even decent ones, to do later-game DPS. I keep persuading newcomers to not worry about Rivens too much, because there are so many upgrade mechanics in Warframe, and Rivens is just one of them.

Rivens are what turns weapons that need to hit 30 times against steel path enemy to ONE hit.das
Riven is maybe just "one upgrade mechanic" But it is equivalent of 6 mod slots on many weapons.

Lets say you want viral  damage on vectis and above 100% crit chance
>Cold,Toxin,Crit
Now you gonna use primed chamber so Cold,Toxin,Crit -Magazine size

That is 4 mod slots at price of 1 and more than doubles the vectis  damage and this is "worst case" scenario because vectis prime has tiny disposition

on high dispo weapons rivens 4x the damage easily.  If low disposition bow can roll 90% crit dmg, high dispo can roll 180% becoming only more effective per modslot spend.
Just the difference between 90% crit chance and 100% is crazy after you account for hunter munition. And above 100% you get chance to upgrade crit hit to next tier of multiplier...
Also to shoot grineer 10 times and get 0crits is completely possible experience below 100% crit chance. So the feel of weapon skyrockets at all times after using riven.

Just like to have monitor is just one of upgrades for your visual experience from gaming, riven is just one way to upgrade your weapons in warframe sure...
Does not make it any less important tho, it is hard to enjoy  ultra-settings for graphics in game when u got no monitor.
And in warframe rivens are the difference between weapon being absolute trash-trier experience and good alternative to other more popular guns.
Even if you want to play only level 1 earth missions and claim to not care about dps, riven is still better because u can get mag size, reload  speed, -recoil -zoom. Quality of life features

Then there are also stat sticks and heavy attacks which are even bigger dealbreaker for rivens. Giving you thousandsfold more damage with them.

For me most important thing about rivens is that i can take my godroll weapon and go kill stuff no matter what frame i'm using. Meanwhile without it i need to care about things like "Armor stripping" forcing me to use 1 of 4 boring frames.  I can take frame with 0 abilities and still chew ass and kick gum. While you cry with your frost prime about having to spam Avalanche in SP to be able to kill something with your bad gun and no riven. I do not want to be maidenless in elden  ring and rivenless in warframe 😅

[CosmicHermitCrab]

36 minutes ago, ---Merchant--- said:

Rivens are what turns weapons that need to hit 30 times against steel path enemy to ONE hit.das
Riven is maybe just "one upgrade mechanic" But it is equivalent of 6 mod slots on many weapons.
...
 While you cry with your frost prime about having to spam Avalanche in SP to be able to kill something with your bad gun and no riven. I do not want to be maidenless in elden  ring and rivenless in warframe 😅

Not sure why you are being elitist about it, not like anyone insulted you or anything. Good luck getting similarly rolled rivens for all other sniper rifles with pure RNG, it's such a fair system indeed. Or you could be more realistic and not use sniper rifles against SP enemies, lol. Shotguns can easily one-shot SP enemies without rivens, so you're probably just ignorant of the actual meta of the game. That's the problem when folks rely on rivens too much, they don't learn damage 2.0 properly.

Not sure what I'm crying about, but I don't only main a warframe every day. I can easily do SP circuit, too; since I min-maxed most weapons, too.

Also, why would you even use vectis in a generic SP mission, you have to aim down sights with it. Sniper rifles obviously have issues dealing against large groups of enemies than even most Warframe nukers. I rather just kill them with torid with incarnon genesis, cough*. No riven required...easy.

Sniper rifles are made more for long-range combat, which I thought was obviously defined by its label...

Also, switch-frame with priming (specific secondary loadout) tactic is a thing...

So yeah, try to make a single (10-13)-modded loadout beat two separate loadouts (16 mods) synergizing together, cool story bro!

6 mods equal a single riven? It's more like 3 mods to me in most situations, but w/e. I guess you are including high disposition, but riven disposition nerfs/reworks is a thing too.
 

^ Don't need a riven, either!

Also, overkilling enemies is a concept, unless you are aiming to kill level 9999s, but most average players don't do that.

FashionFrame is endgame, not rivens! Fashion > Rivens

Edited May 25, 2023 by CosmicHermitCrab

[(PSN)c1234567890alvi]

My personal hope in that regard is, that they understand that we are still finding our favorites among them and don't immediately nerf all of them into the ground. If they are smart, they will wait one Dispo change rotation to actually commit to the Dispo nerfs and for now watch, until we got our hands on most of them. But nerfed they will get, as sure as an Amen in the church. 

[CosmicHermitCrab]

Peeps, they announced since day 1 of the Riven release that it's based on usage statistics. Doesn't matter if the w/e weapon is garbage or not. If a lot of folks use the said weapon, its riven disposition will lower. Look at this other perspective of it. If you bought a god-tier riven and then it gets nerfed after one month, you didn't lose anything. You bought one month of a god-tier riven and that's what you got, and it's in the past now. You bought what you earned. 

However, some peeps get upset and then play some other game after their personal favorite riven gets nerfed.

The solution to this problem cannot be solved by preventing DE to do the inevitable with their riven disposition reworks. The issue is the severe RNG involved in rerolling rivens.

Some folks think if you get CC and CD, you can improve the said riven by keep rerolling it. Random probability doesn't work that way, lol. You can't just "craft" an additional modifier with pure 100% RNG of rerolling. Path of Exile crafting system mechanics would benefit here, but obviously, many of us would disagree on what the specific details and rules should be for such a new additional system.

Basically, the riven system is suffering from an overall game design flaw, not from DE balancing the riven dispositions correctly.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The economy systems of the game is also correlated to this problem, too. There is no in-game trading market for blueprints and basic parts (not rivens and/or sisters and liches) for players, yet. We are forced to use a third-party website for trading most items, atm. Since this community won't budge from wanting a quality-of-life system of a reliable in-game trading market; so I can spend more time playing than waiting or telling other traders to wait on me during missions. Because of this, I think it's best I just "white-knight" in protecting the current riven system and argue too much dramatic change is too risky and argue this is Warframe, not some other game. A lot of newbies can't adapt to the warframe-market website ironically and this hurts the playerbase and in-game economy of the game. Also, there is a lot of trade macro bots spamming in in-game trade chat, too.

If the community actually cared about the game, it would suggest reworking the riven system and adding in an additional in-game trading market for basic items (not rivens and/or lichs/sisters). This way more players will have an easier time trading for plat and more players will be interested into buying rivens with their earned plat from said trades, so then there is more flow of plat in the economic network of Warframe.

However no...keep everything the same and just do cross-platform and mobile-Warframe, a safer investment for DE and its future.

Edited May 25, 2023 by CosmicHermitCrab

[Pakaku]

So just use the regular Lenz, it has a better disposition and barely any hit in stats. That's kind of the point of Rivens.

[Famecans]

I think the Riven will not change, Incarnon = endgame content; non popular content; inaccessible umpopular content...

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

4 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

My Lex is years old, a great gun got me through the game before all this power/meta was around well in my eyes at least, and it's got a 4/5 dispo so wouldn't be impressed if it got nuked because it's the gun of the month.

I have rivens for most of my inventory of weapons because I find them fun on older weapons to try out, juggling the 180 cap can be a pain but meh I deal.

 I'm still trying to work out why DE seems to have done a backflip on nerfing popular stuff and give us these OP weapons which are fun I'm wondering why, for now, I'm just gonna roll with it.

 

They having something cooking up just not sure what it is yet.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

if you can't see how dispositions are going to go up and down, especially on current meta weapons, after all this time that Rivens have been in the game, then you have a worrying lack of foresight and pattern prediction. 

anyone who still chooses to buy/sell rivens at exorbitant prices has it coming, I've zero sympathy for them. if anything I like dispo changes for the hefty supply of salt they bring. 

[sly_squash]

You do make an interesting point that new incarnon weapons bypass the usual "start all new weapons at lowest dispo and then increase" paradigm they adopted, hence why there's so much activity.

But this doesn't surprise me, because the disposition system has always been poorly thought-out garbage and rivens should've never been used as a mechanism to balance out the popularity and strength of weapons.  That should be the work of, you know, balancing.

Edited May 25, 2023 by sly_squash

[DrBorris]

Seeing as disposition is listed as a stat like any other on a weapon, I wouldn't be surprised if they make installing an Incarnon adapter nuke the disposition. The functionality is there to have a mod give different stats depending on what it is equipped on, extending that to Incarnons doesn't seem unreasonable.

[CosmicHermitCrab]

On another note, there has been a lot of drama about the "black market" of riven merchants/traders a couple of years back. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some third-party trading with the rivens, too.

To anyone that wants to invest into rivens, you must compare its cost (such as 1k+ of plat) to other upgrade and mandatory game features such as prime sets, inventory slots, forma bundles, exilus adaptors, and orokin catalyst/reactors. If you haven't invested heavily into these other upgrade mechanics, don't bother with rivens yet; especially if you don't understand the game itself enough. A lot of folks overlook the opportunity-cost of buying expensive rivens.

The thing is, Trials/Raids existed long before the update for rivens and folks were still able to get automatic trade bans from staying in endless missions for beyond 2 hrs+ before the Era of Rivens. You don't need rivens, they're a luxury upgrade for veterans who can afford to waste plat. However, if you wanna invest into rivens I suggest buying trash or cheap rivens and then reroll them with kuva.

You can easily get weekly of 70k of kuva in total from zariman weekly shop for 5 pinion voidplums and from iron wakes (earth) weekly shop for 10 riven silvers (each is 35k of kuva supply).

You may not get the perfect riven, but you can at least get a decent one easily with little investment.

Also, regarding DE fixing this issue; it's been a very long time and I doubt they ever will because they profitably benefit from it a lot; in addition, they also repeat their common mistakes with BugFrame and layers of dead content (game design-wise).

However, rivens could end up as another layer of deadish content at some point if DE keeps going extreme with its (historical) pattern of power creep. So from this perspective, they will most likely rework the entire riven system, similar to reworking past systems such as focus tree and damage 2.0 overall.

Edited May 25, 2023 by CosmicHermitCrab

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

29 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

On another note, there has been a lot of drama about the "black market" of riven merchants/traders a couple of years back. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some third-party trading with the rivens, too.

To anyone that wants to invest into rivens, you must compare its cost (such as 1k+ of plat) to other upgrade and mandatory game features such as prime sets, inventory slots, forma bundles, exilus adaptors, and orokin catalyst/reactors. If you haven't invested heavily into these other upgrade mechanics, don't bother with rivens yet; especially if you don't understand the game itself enough. A lot of folks overlook the opportunity-cost of buying expensive rivens.

The thing is, Trials/Raids existed long before the update for rivens and folks were still able to get automatic trade bans from staying in endless missions for beyond 2 hrs+ before the Era of Rivens. You don't need rivens, they're a luxury upgrade for veterans who can afford to waste plat. However, if you wanna invest into rivens I suggest buying trash or cheap rivens and then reroll them with kuva.

You can easily get weekly of 70k of kuva in total from zariman weekly shop for 5 pinion voidplums and from iron wakes (earth) weekly shop for 10 riven silvers (each is 35k of kuva supply).

You may not get the perfect riven, but you can at least get a decent one easily with little investment.

Also, regarding DE fixing this issue; it's been a very long time and I doubt they ever will because they profitably benefit from it a lot; in addition, they also repeat their common mistakes with BugFrame and layers of dead content (game design-wise).

However, rivens could end up as another layer of deadish content at some point if DE keeps going extreme with its (historical) pattern of power creep. So from this perspective, they will most likely rework the entire riven system, similar to reworking past systems such as focus tree and damage 2.0 overall.

Other then the bolded part at the end, what does any of that have to do with this thread or discussion?

[CosmicHermitCrab]

11 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Other then the bolded part at the end, what does any of that have to do with this thread or discussion?

The middle part has to do with advice for newer players looking to invest into rivens, while being efficient.
 

42 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

On another note, there has been a lot of drama about the "black market" of riven merchants/traders a couple of years back. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some third-party trading with the rivens, too.

^ Folks have boycotted the riven system due to this issue, along with other reasons; however, this is mainly a political issue of this community.
 

42 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Also, regarding DE fixing this issue; it's been a very long time and I doubt they ever will because they profitably benefit from it a lot; in addition, they also repeat their common mistakes with BugFrame and layers of dead content (game design-wise).

DE makes a lot of plat indirectly from the riven merchants of Warframe. If DE were to rework or do a massive change to this system, there could potentially be unforeseeable bug exploits in regard to it that could hurt the current in-game player economy. With other current issues of the game, such as BugFrame, layers of dead content, and trying to stabilize cross-platform it's too risky for DE to do any real changes to the riven system in the near future.

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by CosmicHermitCrab

[Jarriaga]

14 hours ago, Famecans said:

I think the Riven will not change, Incarnon = endgame content; non popular content; inaccessible umpopular content...

I don't see "endgame content" listed as an exception to DE's defined Riven update criteria.

Furthermore they have the ability to filter out usage statistics explicitly by those who have access to the endgame content and sample the pool size from there, as shown when they presented completion rates for specific quests and participation in new game modes.

[Voltage]

Yet another example in the last 7 years that Dispositions are a waste of resources and management. They've never accomplished anything since day one. The entire system was made because people only rolled Tonkor/Simulor/etc. in the beginning. We are literally still doing that anyway. 

Every weapon should have the same stat range opportunity. Balance weapon stats themselves.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Voltage

[CosmicHermitCrab]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't see "endgame content" listed as an exception to DE's defined Riven update criteria.

Furthermore they have the ability to filter out usage statistics explicitly by those who have access to the endgame content and sample the pool size from there, as shown when they presented completion rates for specific quests and participation in new game modes.

This argument would make sense if the game itself made more sense. I understand the argument and agree that it's possible. However, there are two main meta paths atm, without going into priming tactics. One meta is about clear speed, killing groups of enemies quickly and finishing a mission asap; speed running basically. The other meta is more about single-target DPS. The reason why I mention this is some weapons have good AoE capabilities, but not later game DPS. However, that doesn't mean these same weapons are bad because they can clear most mid-tier and below-tier missions relatively quicker than a clunky, single-target one-shot opticor.

So I will ask...what exactly is endgame in warframe? Not trying to be a smarty-pants, I'm quite serious. Make the most plat? Rerolling a god-tier riven? Reaching to level 9999s in missions? Speedrunning missions the quickest? Enduring in a mission for weeks? Doing Eidolons aka Tricaps?

This has been a conceptional problem with Warframe since they removed both Dark Sectors and Trials/Raids. Especially now that Steel Path isn't that much more rewarding than normal missions, sometimes it's more time efficient to speedrun normal missions for w/e rewards due to the concept of time.

I have to admit, the majority of our playerbase is more of a casual one, and that's not necessarily a problem per se, just a different style of a community.

TLDR; What's meta against level 9999s might not be the same for level 100-50s, especially with how the current level scaling works for enemies. There is a reason for the past explosive weapon rework/nerf.

Edited May 26, 2023 by CosmicHermitCrab