Why does Frost Prime have 450 energy with Primed Flow...

[Surbusken]

In my mind Frost is a tank/controller, based on the premise the best way to tank is to CC.

I put Pillage over his 2 with no rolling guard, no shield gating and that's that.

 

You roll in there, hit 4 followed by Pillage, or vice versa if it's corpus, and then it's game over. He is expert for defense/excavation and so on, just do triple bubble and then freeze the whole area while you strip them.

I also use him a lot for archon hunts, where he is both keeping the team alive by CC but also handing them easy kills by stripping.

 

To me the best way to keep alive is staying mobile, which is to say cast and attack in midair and aim to glide cast or hover. Not a good idea to stand still on the ground playing a casting animation, just a sitting duck getting blasted.

Then the emergency exit is the operator. I got tether and the arcane that heals your frame when you switch in and out. So if in trouble I just bail into the void, unable to get hit, throw tether on everything I can't knock over with dash and then I am ready again.

And tether is also spammable on disruption targets anyway.

 

For melee I use Orvius, since it has ranged, unlimited ammo, autoaim AOE. I mean I can shoot around corners, while getting "dodge" or "evade" or what it is, from midair.

It has a short charged up but unlike all the crap combat stances, it doesn't lock you down, you can bail out, and you don't have to aim when launching glaives. Meaning, least amount of time lost between attacks.

Also got +60% movement speed and instant heal on every detonation.

Similarly I use the vermisplicer triple beam that also has unlimited ammo by charge arcane, and does not have to be aimed.

 

I mean you are basically only on the ground to initiate a new jump.

 

In the absolute worst case scenario, you still beat everything in the game by wall glitching - shooting into a room behind cover where they can't hit you.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Surbusken

[(PSN)robotwars7]

5 hours ago, 4thBro said:

o I'm just at my wit's end with trying to make Frost work. He just has zero survivability, and he needs too much of every stat in the game.

he needs a rework: he's one of the oldest frames in the game, and his kit has shown it's age for a long time (him and Limbo are the only two frames where their defensive ability doesn't allow you to shoot through it both ways: in Limbo's case it's understandable because of how the rift works, but if Gara can shoot through her own glass both ways, why can't frost do the same with his Snowglobe)?

for my frost, I modded Strength and range, he doesn't really need duration because snowglobes stay up until they're popped by you or enemy damage. plus enough strength means total armor strip, and it's a lot easier to win a fight against unarmored opponents. he has a lot of shields so maybe consider Arcane Aegis/Barrier if you need the survivability too.

if you have Helminth, you can also subsume over his 2 for something else, DON'T cut out his freeze because you need it for popping globes when they're no longer needed (and sometimes a quick cold proc can stop a heavy enemy from getting off a shot that would've killed you.) as for the energy issue.. he has a small energy pool, despite being a defensive caster, it's just bad/outdated design. hopefully one day he'll get looked at.

 

[schilds]

I probably wouldn't take Frost into kuva survival over someone like Khora simply because you need to keep up life support.

That said:

He can go with neutral duration. Helminth an energy source over his 2 (easily his most redundant ability) and he can go with neutral efficiency even while spamming. Stretch is more than sufficient range. Strength only needs to be at most 167% for full armour strip. You can spam bubble to stack health - unless you're doing level cap or something his bubble should not be dying in one hit. If you're moving around outside the bubble, cast avalanche *mid air*. As for archon shards, I'd put on casting speed + parkour.

Not saying he couldn't do with some small buffs, but if you can't make him work with all the tools we now have, that's on you.

 

Video of SP Conjunction Survival (lvl 200) with my build at the end:

Spoiler

There are five mods (including exilus and aura) and an arcane on that build that aren't strictly necessary. Seems reasonably flexible?

Edited June 18, 2023 by schilds

[Slayer-.]

7 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

why can't cold just straight up freeze people omg

My Hildryn with thermal sunder wants to speak to you, it freezes high level SP enemies in their tracks. 

[taiiat]

5 hours ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

No... Ice Wave.  Freeze has the job of removing the ANNOYING BUBBLES and Ice Wave is just as bad. 

i see more use in Ice Wave Impedance than Freeze Force(which ofcourse STILL should be integrated into the Ability rather than needing a Mod Slot for it, Ice Wave on its own is pretty useless), but they're both the weaker Abilities, ofcourse.

Edited June 18, 2023 by taiiat

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

8 hours ago, 4thBro said:

Yes, please do, I am clearly complaining because I don't know how to recover energy.

----

Funny enough, the obnoxious event that led me to making this thread probably isn't as much to do about energy as it is other things that suck about Frost. I was doing a Steel Path Kuva Survival, and the life support structure was in the middle of a big spot. My bubbles weren't lasting beyond their invuln period, and every time I avalanched (with 190% range btw) I'd still be taking random bullets during animation, emptying my shield gating constantly. Rolling Dodge could only help me so much with its 7 sec CD, and I could only avalanche so hard with 450 max energy. I never regained my footing, because I couldn't stop taking random bullets despite bubbles and avalanches.

So I ran out of energy and I died.

 

Sure, I could have spammed my energy pizza button, but I try not to use them because they don't feel right. (Like, if you need to spam pizzas, your build aint it.)

And so I'm just at my wit's end with trying to make Frost work. He just has zero survivability, and he needs too much of every stat in the game.

 

An acolyte one shot me yesterday when I wasn't playing shield gate. I had 850 HP and 90% damage reduction. And he hard one-shot me. Frame 1, full HP, frame 2, zero HP.

Nothing works on this guy.

Null Star requires duration, but then you can't fit in your OTHER stats that way. You want about 168% strength for Avalanche, then you want SOME amount of range so that you actually hit things... Efficiency would be NICE, but even if you skip it, you're gonna be hard-pressed getting HP and Armor along with your Null Star.

 

It's just AAAGH!! This guy has nothing to start with, and wants ALL stats in the game to be above 100%. It's just too much, man.

 

/rant...

The secret to Frost, IMO, is to do the opposite build you're suggesting. Instead of focusing on enhancing ability parameters, try maxing his Health, Armor and Shields and only focus on some ability strength to give Avalanche full armor strip. I believe he has the overall highest of the tri-stat survival stats in the game, with shields, armor and health all exceeding 1K each without shards so, right off the bat, his survival drastically increases.

With shards, ( Tau Azures with 4 armor and 1 health), things get...ridiculous. My Frost sits at 1,957 Armor, 1,605 Health and 1,680 shields. Combined with Arcane Aegis (or Guardian), Arcane Grace and Adaptation, no group of enemies can actually hurt him until well pass SP level 300. The extra armor tremendously boosts the Bubbles's health (mine has an initial health at 25,507.2, with help from 192% strength from the Umbra mods and Power Drift). To add insult, my pets all use the Guardian mod to instantly replenish his super high shields and, speaking of pets, all of your pets would easily exceed 1,500+ stats when using the Link Mods.

Lastly, use Archon flow, if you got it, and Corrosive projection to seal the deal with armor...although Avalanche has 115% armor stripping at 192% Power Strength.  I also flex between Carnis Carapace (+60% Armor, +90% Health) and Boreal's Hatred (+150 shields, +15% Efficiency). Normally, Carnis wouldn't enhance much but this is actually a dream mod for high health and armor frames.

In essence, Frost really does become extremely hard to kill... extremely hard. To me, his ability stats don't really need to extend beyond just having his Avalanche achieving 100% armor strip. Everything else works very well, especially with Cole's rework...which also works very well on the acolytes who hit the hardest. So far, only radiation (sigh....) and SP Circuit level 700+ dudes have managed to knock my Frost out due to carelessness.

I hope this build type can provide a new thought into Frost. He's been my main for 7 years and I've got no reason to ever bump him down. Good luck bro!!

[SpicyDinosaur]

Yea this is a skill issue, that or the OP has a build that "ain't it." Rolling Guard on Frost? Frost is a solid frame, even after this many years. Maybe not S tier, but definitely not bad.

 

There are so many things to pick apart about the opening post, and then they get snarky when someone points out there are about a billion ways to regain or maintain energy.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

8 hours ago, Leqesai said:

CC against overguard+eximus units is useful IMO. 

And for the record, I don't think Frost is garbage tier. I'd put him very high on the list right now specifically for his ability to easily remove armor while being one of the few frames that have any manner of CC against overguard. 

Strongly agree. He doesn't have any weaknesses, IMO, and he has the one CC that works on everything except nullifiers. Honestly, I do think Ice Wave needs an update but that's about it. Making any other changes would make him way too strong.

[SpicyDinosaur]

16 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

The secret to Frost, IMO, is to do the opposite build you're suggesting. Instead of focusing on enhancing ability parameters, try maxing his Health, Armor and Shields and only focus on some ability strength to give Avalanche full armor strip. I believe he has the overall highest of the tri-stat survival stats in the game, with shields, armor and health all exceeding 1K each without shards so, right off the bat, his survival drastically increases.

With shards, ( Tau Azures with 4 armor and 1 health), things get...ridiculous. My Frost sits at 1,957 Armor, 1,605 Health and 1,680 shields. Combined with Arcane Aegis (or Guardian), Arcane Grace and Adaptation, no group of enemies can actually hurt him until well pass SP level 300. The extra armor tremendously boosts the Bubbles's health (mine has an initial health at 25,507.2, with help from 192% strength from the Umbra mods and Power Drift). To add insult, my pets all use the Guardian mod to instantly replenish his super high shields and, speaking of pets, all of your pets would easily exceed 1,500+ stats when using the Link Mods.

Lastly, use Archon flow, if you got it, and Corrosive projection to seal the deal with armor...although Avalanche has 115% armor stripping at 192% Power Strength.  I also flex between Carnis Carapace (+60% Armor, +90% Health) and Boreal's Hatred (+150 shields, +15% Efficiency). Normally, Carnis wouldn't enhance much but this is actually a dream mod for high health and armor frames.

In essence, Frost really does become extremely hard to kill... extremely hard. To me, his ability stats don't really need to extend beyond just having his Avalanche achieving 100% armor strip. Everything else works very well, especially with Cole's rework...which also works very well on the acolytes who hit the hardest. So far, only radiation (sigh....) and SP Circuit level 700+ dudes have managed to knock my Frost out due to carelessness.

I hope this build type can provide a new thought into Frost. He's been my main for 7 years and I've got no reason to ever bump him down. Good luck bro!!

Wait, wait, how are you using Guardian while also using Link Health though? Can Moas and Hounds use both maybe? Then you have to use those types of pets, though. 🤮

 

My experiences with Frost (though I don't have a Frost Prime glyph so YMMV) would definitely not be to boost shields. You don't need to abuse shield-gating with frost but it's another layer of survival. You're basically just making him into Inaros by pushing health, (though armor makes sense,) and eventually that stops being effective. Frost should already have no issue surviving, he's fairly tanky all things considered.

 

Rolling Guard should really only be used on frames that can't take a hit or two, and on anything else, if you need something more, adaptation is usually more effective. I don't think I have either on my Frost, and I've survived SP enough with him. Though I am not an expert.

 

Also, good to see I'm not the only one who has started to just dump state efficiency because there are so many ways to get energy back now. lol

[stormy505]

https://imgur.com/a/Jc9doTP

This is what I use. I do think he's not as strong as other defense frames when it comes to that niche, but he's more ungo bunga than gara and less hated than limbo so eh. (You obviously don't need all that forma but it's just so I don't have to use multiple frames to fit my builds.)

Most important things for him.
1. Hitting 166% str for full armor strip, very easy with a max molt augmented.
2. Energy sustain is important for frost cause if you want to not stand still inside bubbles to survive you rely on shield gating in higher level sp content. So archon flow, energize, zenurik etc. I also use a blue shard to increase his max further.
3. Cast speed also stupid important. Two amber shards or sub natural talent in somewhere because if you want any sort of basic mobility you have to rely on shield gates for decent level content in sp.
4. Decent enough duration to actually take advantage of Biting Frost for damage boost.

Because his 2 is worthless I rec helminth a cc or damage boost ability over it. I don't think you should run pillage although the shield regen is nice, as having two armor strip abilities makes me question why you are using frost in the first place.

[ReddyDisco]

Shield gating will work on him for survivability, though i have very little reason to use him for anything these days.

[Marvelous_A]

You use Primed Flow on him? With enough efficiency and proper energy management a single Arcane Energize or Zenurik Energizing Dash should be more than enough to sustain him. Although I do use an extra Azure Shard on him to make my life easier.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Marvelous_A

[Vermillion-Code]

Are the people saying Frost is good just not using any frame except for Frost, so they have no idea how bad he actually is? Like yeah, you can beat SP Solo with him. You can do that with any frame, and almost all of them will do it several times better than he does lol.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

11 hours ago, RafMatador22 said:

I just don't use frost because I think it's incredibly ugly, like limbo. Sorry I had to vent that lol

Frost felt that :(

[schilds]

1 hour ago, Vermillion-Code said:

Are the people saying Frost is good just not using any frame except for Frost

No?

People are just saying if the OP is struggling with Frost then there's an issue with his build or how he plays.

1 hour ago, Vermillion-Code said:

Like yeah, you can beat SP Solo with him

Exactly. So why do people struggle with him?

[SneakyErvin]

Running same setup as trst on my Frost along with 1 tau forged amber and I've managed to even sustain a build using gloom alongside spamming avalanche in SP. And 175-190% efficiency has become the norm on nearly all of my frames instead of increasing energy. Since increasing energy still keeps your skills at high costs, while efficiency allows a single orb pick up to give you a new ability cast.

I've also dropped Arcane Energize on all frames since amber shards were introduced. They run no risk blowing their benefit on nothing unlike energize that could proc even if you only needed minimal energy and go on cooldown, meaning you might not have access to it when you actually need it.

Edited June 18, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[American]

16 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Frost is garbage tier. I'd just never use him if I were you.

This is objectively wrong.
You can build frost in such a way where he can do great armor stripping and area denial, even at level cap in the Circuit.

[Leqesai]

7 minutes ago, American said:

This is objectively wrong.
You can build frost in such a way where he can do great armor stripping and area denial, even at level cap in the Circuit.

You don't say.

[ELTP]

6 hours ago, stormy505 said:

Because his 2 is worthless I rec helminth a cc or damage boost ability over it. I don't think you should run pillage although the shield regen is nice, as having two armor strip abilities makes me question why you are using frost in the first place.

Ensnare and Breach Surge work well. I prefer ensnare, works very well in SP circuit, ironically best on every mode but defense and excav. Armor strip, then pull everything together, nuke it all to death. Defense and excav become armor strip bubble repeat at level 3000+ for me, but I've only made it that far with a duo team; your milage may vary. Breach Surge might be better at those levels, yet to actually test it.

[Amolistic.]

Bro. I hardcore main rhino with a total of ~91% and I have 0 issues with his energy max, nor energy economy. That could be your own skill issue...

Unlike frost who prob only need cast 2-3 abilities at max, rhino is one of those few frames that has 4 useful abilities and the lowest energy max while needing to cast abilities often (including subsume), i had to cast iron skin often, press stomp when needed which happens often due stopping eximus in their tracks for ez kill, and cast 1 with subsumed ability + roar.

I have a 2 tau energy shard. i go 130 effi + primed flow/ 175 effi with one shard. No shard with primed flow? energize as always.

Efficiency over 170 generally makes you have little to no issue with anything related to energy, even with 0 energy regen source.

To be fair, no matter how many energy max you have, if you can't sustain it, you are going to run out of it, just slower.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

11 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Wait, wait, how are you using Guardian while also using Link Health though? Can Moas and Hounds use both maybe? Then you have to use those types of pets, though. 🤮

 

My experiences with Frost (though I don't have a Frost Prime glyph so YMMV) would definitely not be to boost shields. You don't need to abuse shield-gating with frost but it's another layer of survival. You're basically just making him into Inaros by pushing health, (though armor makes sense,) and eventually that stops being effective. Frost should already have no issue surviving, he's fairly tanky all things considered.

 

Rolling Guard should really only be used on frames that can't take a hit or two, and on anything else, if you need something more, adaptation is usually more effective. I don't think I have either on my Frost, and I've survived SP enough with him. Though I am not an expert.

 

Also, good to see I'm not the only one who has started to just dump state efficiency because there are so many ways to get energy back now. lol

Yep, Guardian works on Moa and Hound setups. The whiplash mine precept is insanely good on Moas and they can use Verglas, a weapon that just absolutely melts everything it hits while quickly ramping up procs (mine is Viral +Heat or Electric for a little extra CC). 

I don't have the stamina to go for super long runs that would require shield gating for Frost. As it stands, Arcane Aegis and Arcane Grace, along with Guardian are all versions of gating that I don't have to properly time like I would with shield gating. I like this because I can focus on squad support and do fly-by Avalanches to take pressure off of them while also staying by objectives that I know my bubble is strong enough to protect until I get back. 

My longest run with this setup was about 2 hours and 15 or so minutes, but we had a party to head to so I extracted before I got the "wife is pissed" stare. 😂 During that run, only the acolytes proved to be a threat if I slipped up on my Avalanche-to-Trumna grenade combo. Even then, that would only be radiation or that crazy lift-slash combo Violence does. 

[SpicyDinosaur]

50 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Yep, Guardian works on Moa and Hound setups. The whiplash mine precept is insanely good on Moas and they can use Verglas, a weapon that just absolutely melts everything it hits while quickly ramping up procs (mine is Viral +Heat or Electric for a little extra CC). 

I don't have the stamina to go for super long runs that would require shield gating for Frost. As it stands, Arcane Aegis and Arcane Grace, along with Guardian are all versions of gating that I don't have to properly time like I would with shield gating. I like this because I can focus on squad support and do fly-by Avalanches to take pressure off of them while also staying by objectives that I know my bubble is strong enough to protect until I get back. 

My longest run with this setup was about 2 hours and 15 or so minutes, but we had a party to head to so I extracted before I got the "wife is pissed" stare. 😂 During that run, only the acolytes proved to be a threat if I slipped up on my Avalanche-to-Trumna grenade combo. Even then, that would only be radiation or that crazy lift-slash combo Violence does. 

Okay at that long of a run I can see using rolling guard I usually only go for at most an hour because I don't have the patience for more than that. I only recently started using shield gating again, so I can see it not being effective as I was using it on Banshee who benefits from it even early on, and I've been using it on all my frames since then because it's better than having to take the key on and off. Was this SP, btw?

 

And yea that reminds me that I have a riven I need to roll for the verglas into something good. Now that I think about it, I was using a sentinel on Banshee for guardian, but as much as I don't really like them, a moa or hound would be better. Djinn was dead almost constantly. What do you use exactly?

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

44 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Okay at that long of a run I can see using rolling guard I usually only go for at most an hour because I don't have the patience for more than that. I only recently started using shield gating again, so I can see it not being effective as I was using it on Banshee who benefits from it even early on, and I've been using it on all my frames since then because it's better than having to take the key on and off. Was this SP, btw?

 

And yea that reminds me that I have a riven I need to roll for the verglas into something good. Now that I think about it, I was using a sentinel on Banshee for guardian, but as much as I don't really like them, a moa or hound would be better. Djinn was dead almost constantly. What do you use exactly?

Yep, that was an SP run against Grineer on Sedna I think (survival).

I use a Moa that has both whiplash and guardian as precepts. Everything else on it are the link mods, Prime animal instinct the "heal companion with melee kills" mod and vacuum.

[0_The_F00l]

Heres my build

People overlook Icy avalanche , but it gives you status immunity which is one of the best things you can have for survival.

i personally feel his energy economy is indeed on the poorer side and could use a little help ,

i also feel his 2 is a wasted slot , it should be merged with his 4 for a tap / hold effect and his 2 should be something else that adds to his survivability.

I have used gloom , and it works very well , both thematically and practically to keep him going for a very long time.

Archon flow ... is kinda weak , but its better than nothing.

I plan to replace arcane guardian with reaper once i have it maxed out.

When you have 3 items to support a frames energy economy it is clearly in need of some relook , but its workable for now , but not everyone will be able to manage at the same level.

So i dont think he needs a full rework , but some tweaks are definitely in order.

[Leqesai]

8 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Heres my build

People overlook Icy avalanche , but it gives you status immunity which is one of the best things you can have for survival.

i personally feel his energy economy is indeed on the poorer side and could use a little help ,

i also feel his 2 is a wasted slot , it should be merged with his 4 for a tap / hold effect and his 2 should be something else that adds to his survivability.

I have used gloom , and it works very well , both thematically and practically to keep him going for a very long time.

Archon flow ... is kinda weak , but its better than nothing.

I plan to replace arcane guardian with reaper once i have it maxed out.

When you have 3 items to support a frames energy economy it is clearly in need of some relook , but its workable for now , but not everyone will be able to manage at the same level.

So i dont think he needs a full rework , but some tweaks are definitely in order.

Thats similar to my build though I go for:

Duration isn't needed. The armor strip is permanent. You just want enough duration to ensure your gloom drain is at the minimum value so the giant radius isn't impeded. Also Molt Augmented plus growing power and madurai get you to 95% slow with this setup, which when applied to enemies with cold procs results in like a 99% slow.

Larger range makes Icy avalanche significantly more useful too.