Is it okay when the dev said it's too much work for them to fix a bug so they decide not to?

[(PSN)Unstar]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

For context I've played Baldurs Gate 3 recently, and I was very pleased that the developers have fixed a huge number of bugs since release. I bet if they'd shrugged their shoulders and said "well you already bought the game, no sense in fixing stuff now" they wouldn't be as popular as they are.

But there's no difference between this and Warframe in this regard.  Both DE and Larian continue to release updates that fix bugs, and I still regularly encounter bugs in both games.  The main difference here is that Warframe continues to develop new content for their game while bug-fixing, while Larian can focus solely on bug fixes.

[Zimzala]

10 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I think as a customer it's the absolute correct thing to do in this situation to say "Hey, I'm not satsified with your service. You're cutting corners and it's plain to see, do a proper job please."

Which you have done, as others have done, continuously.

If, after your constant input, they have not fixed what you want them to fix and are still unhappy, does it not become your personal responsibility to your own happiness to move on and find another thing to enjoy?

1 hour ago, kamisama85 said:

even unhappy customers need to know when to wise up and walk away too instead of taking a beating to no end. Otherwise it means you're generally content with the product you have in hand.

Seems like good advice to me.

There are many games I have enjoyed but stop playing due to one reason or another, including a lack of quality.

DE has stated their position on this bug.

One can argue that is a statement to the fact that they will/do/have made this same judgment previously, totally logical.

This is what all software developers do.

If anyone cannot live with that reality, that a company does, in fact, not revolve around producing perfect code, only code good enough to keep train moving, then I suggest they stop playing computer games, if they want to keep that moral ground.

No one here is even advocating for anyone to stop complaining. Personally I get a lot of entertainment from it.

I think DE is doing a satisfactory if not excellent job on bug fixing. I don't care if anyone does not agree.

Happy Gaming!

[Genitive]

Just now, Traumtulpe said:

That's just not true at all. Just take this update for example, I'm quite happy that pets got reworked and looking forward to the rest of the rework to come.

How did you even come to that conclusion?

By your constant whining. Anyway, you know where the ignore button is.

[Traumtulpe]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

But there's no difference between this and Warframe in this regard.  Both DE and Larian continue to release updates that fix bugs, and I still regularly encounter bugs in both games.

With all due respect, I strongly disagree. I noticed spells in Baldurs Gate were bugged to not scale their DC at all on ground effects (like the Web spell for example), and guess what, a couple weeks later they fixed it.

In Warframe I noticed glaives are bugged to break the combo counter when used for regular throws, and I even made detailed bug reports with videos. Years later they remain bugged and regular throws are unusable.

There is a very clear difference here.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[Metalgearfox]

11 hours ago, Kooooooooooooooo said:

I really don't appreciate his attitude.

This is my attitude. 
This is the attitude of every programmer I've worked with.
You have a dozen urgent bugs to fix along with a dozen features to build. You have 40 hours this week. Are you going to spend those hours on 100,000 dollar problems or 100 dollar problems? If you choose the latter, you will be fired. 

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, NekroArts said:

Every single one of us has/will find themselves in a situation where an "outside Karen" tells us how we should be doing our jobs and we, the ones that "knows what's best" because we are directly involve, respond with something along the lines of "not how it works" or "not worth it". It's always going to be a &^%# experience, shouldn't have come to a shock if a little attitude leaks outs like that.

True. I'm honestly not shocked or anything, just helping to explain why people have come to dislike the response. Like I said, I think Pablo's just being honest, and some people don't want to hear the truth that this is how bugs are addressed. It's not about what bug is actually more detrimental to the game, it's what costs the most resources for the return. Arguably things like CO/GunCO bugs are extremely unhealthy and bad for the overall game, but fixing those clearly isn't worth the effort. That's just how it is. Warframe is long past being a passion project and is now any serious corporate entity. Bugs are just cells on a spreadsheet with a value of importance next to them based on cost and return.

[(PSN)Unstar]

30 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

With all due respect, I strongly disagree. I noticed spells in Baldurs Gate were bugged to not scale their DC at all on ground effects (like the Web spell for example), and guess what, a couple weeks late they fixed it.

Again, the same thing happens in Warframe.  People report bugs, and some of those bugs get fixed.  Check the patch notes of various hotfixes and updates.

 

30 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

In Warframe I noticed glaives are bugged to break the combo counter when used for regular throws, and I even made detailed bug reports with videos. Years later they remain bugged and regular throws are unusable.

If that's the difference that you want to focus on, then it's too early to come to any legitimate conclusions.  You've made the mistake of making a comparison between a game that has been out for years and a game that's been out for 2 months.  At present, Baldur's Gate 3 literally can't have any bugs that have been in the game for years, since not enough time has passed for such a thing to occur.

To propose that Baldur's Gate 3 will differ from Warframe — in that it won't have unfixed bugs that have been in the game for years — requires an assumption that whenever Larian entirely moves on to other projects, every last bug in their game will have been fixed.

Considering that the game is currently plentiful with all manner of bugs...well, I wouldn't take that bet.  Sure, it's possible, but it's so intensely improbable that it's honestly silly to entertain the possibility.  Not because of anything against Larian, but simply because such perfection is unprecedented in software development.

Edited October 24, 2023 by (PSN)Unstar
better explanation

[Traumtulpe]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Do you genuinely think they'll all get fixed before Larian entirely moves on to other projects?

Who knows. I think they are definitely making a good effort, and I have not seen anything even close in all the time Warframe had.

[Kooooooooooooooo]

1小时前 , kamisama85 说:

OP and others did not even bother to point out was the rest of the tweet that followed because it wouldn't fit the narrative fully

So Umbra was released in 2018, they fixed the bug for exalted blade 4 years later, and aware of the same issue on furious javelin in 2023... bruh

 

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

13 hours ago, Kooooooooooooooo said:

We finally get the answer after years of reporting, and they are making excuses.

Does it really need to take a month to make changes to each ability one by one in order to fix the problem?

Can't you fix it in an alternative way that allows us to disable the sentience mode of umbra?

I think you're out of your gourd! This isn't a big or important thing that he's talking about. This is absolutely the right mentality. They need to work on things that are important before they work on nothing burgers like OP in the image. It's a niche issue that most people won't encounter. It's great if they get to it, but I would much rather the focus be on things that are major before getting to that. And considering that it would take months of work, I imagine that the impact to actual content could be substantial. IF you want it to be fixed, then you either have to be buddy buddy or rally enough interest for it to be worth it for DE. Just saying. 

13 hours ago, Kooooooooooooooo said:

I really don't appreciate his attitude.

His attitude is realistic and truthful. Fixing all the code and testing it all in every circumstance and fixing all the bugs that show up from it is a huge pain. If you had come up to me with that Karen attitude, I would've gone into customer service mode immedietly and lied. I would've told you that our best people are working on it and that we'll let you know when it's ready - they can help you over at guest services (they can't) lmao PEACE

 

_{It's not as easy as simply expanding the studio. It would take at least a year or two for new blood to get to know the inner workings of the game. Only then could they make changes without dealing with a waterfall of cascading bugs throughout the game as a result of the changes.} 

Edited October 24, 2023 by (XBOX)Architect Prime

[Zimzala]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Who knows. I think they are definitely making a good effort, and I have not seen anything even close in all the time Warframe had.

While WF was also adding content, new systems, more cosmetics, etc.

BG3 will just be working on bugs.

Therefore, it is not anywhere close to a valid comparison.

Is there another live service game with the same level of constant content added that does not have stubborn old bugs? 

That would be a valid comparison.

BG3 is awesome, Larian is awesome ... WF is awesome, DE is awesome ... but comparing them in the way you are is disingenuous at best, when you have no actual idea on teh level of effort involved to solve any of the existing issues.

It's obvious your entire goal is to 'parent' or otherwise try and 'guilt' DE into doing what you desire, regardless of the realities involved, you just want what you want and refuse to accept that you won't get it, from where I sit anyway.

If you are actually going to look back on all the years of bug fixes and compare that a game like BG3 and claim more effort has been expended where DE has fixed bugs for years and years and put out new content, well, that's just silly.

Enjoy your windmills!

1 hour ago, Kooooooooooooooo said:

So Umbra was released in 2018, they fixed the bug for exalted blade 4 years later, and aware of the same issue on furious javelin in 2023... bruh

 

So you have never, ever, in your life, not once, made the same mistake twice? ... bruh

[Jarriaga]

13 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

Just keep reposting your screenshot to different social media

If enough people express the same sentiment, DE might reevaluate how they prioritize bugfixes and maintenance vs 'new content'

Reb is publicly on record (Video interview) explicitly addressing bugfixing vs new content. There's a cost vs return analysis business-wise argument in there that will never favor players because the business model is "attract new players" over "retain players":

Transcripts for those who won't watch:

Quote

I think is the fact that it's clear from that data that Warframe needs to update to stay alive. The longer we don't update, the less people come check out the game, the less people stay in the game. So you have those two competing schools, stay in the game and come play the game. And then you have us, who has this five year, now 30 gigabyte behemoth that needs to be updated to stay alive.

So how do you explain to someone that you've been talking to that we will fix your bug, but we also really need to add this new thing or people won't come. And they're like, "Well, stop adding ***. You should fix it." And you're like, "We have to do both."

Taking her at her word it means the benefit of some bugs being fixed can't even compete with the dev's time investment. You can argue "hire more people" but that doesn't really solve the issue of cost because you still have to pay those new people you hire.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Jarriaga

[Hexerin]

6 hours ago, Genitive said:

Serious bugs usually get sorted out fairly quickly.

Reminder that this is still an issue that has gone unresolved:

 

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

5 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Reb is publicly on record (Video interview) explicitly addressing bugfixing vs new content. There's a cost vs return analysis business-wise argument in there that will never favor players because the business model is "attract new players" over "retain players":

Transcripts for those who won't watch:

Taking her at her word it means the benefit of some bugs being fixed can't even compete with the dev's time investment. You can argue "hire more people" but that doesn't really solve the issue of cost because you still have to pay those new people you hire.

 

So, I guess all us players can do, is try to Shift that cost/benefit balance to the point that DE evaluates the priorities Differently.

by spreading the word to those potential 'new players': that the game is a buggy mess the deeper you look, and that DE isn't interested in your long term dedication, only short term high turnover players; thus you shouldn't invest your time or money in the hype.

 

[Kooooooooooooooo]

5小时前 , Zimzala 说:

So you have never, ever, in your life, not once, made the same mistake twice? ... bruh

What do you mean?

Seeing what Pablo said about furious javelin, can I assume that he or the dev would have fixed the exalted blade issue when they were aware of the problem? So why did it take 4 years? Its not about changing dozens of subsume ablities, its only one single signature ability.  Perhaps they just couldn't receive any bug reports about that despite there being quite a lot out there throughout the years. 

Using that tweet to praise the dev is kinda funny.

7小时前 , Zimzala 说:

I think DE is doing a satisfactory if not excellent job on bug fixing. I don't care if anyone does not agree.

 

DE is doing an excellent job on bug fixing on Bugframe? You blew my mind brother.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

 

So, I guess all us players can do, is try to Shift that cost/benefit balance to the point that DE evaluates the priorities Differently.

by spreading the word to those potential 'new players': that the game is a buggy mess the deeper you look, and that DE isn't interested in your long term dedication, only short term high turnover players; thus you shouldn't invest your time or money in the hype.

 

Good luck with the boycott.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Jarriaga

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

13 hours ago, Voltage said:

Yeah, except the way Pablo wrote his response makes him sound like something you'd hear from Blizzard on Diablo IV. If he cut off his statement with "This would require reworking every subsume", most people would just see the reasoning and come to an understanding. Throwing in the "can we afford to fix this" rubs so many people the wrong way, especially considering how much money Warframe takes in, as well as the sustainability of updates. 

I just see his comment as honesty of why the game's so broken. He's being blunt that you're more profitable churning out unfinished content instead of refining the gameplay. We see this with many games nowadays, and Pablo's just being honest.

But that is more about people choosing not to understand what he's saying and, more weirdly, choosing not to know Pablo's typical way of communicating with the public. I mean, when the heck have you ever seen or heard about Pablo, of ALL people, sounding the way op and some of you guys are suggesting? Really dude? I am quite sure you know what he meant and are just trying to stir the pot. You, @Voltage have been around for a long time and now you suddenly don't know how Pablo works? It has nothing to do with profit and loss and you know it.

Weird times bros. It's like a lot of people would rather choose to not even try to think about context anymore. 

[schilds]

Pablo does not decide the budget, business strategy, whether DE hires more people, etc.

His comment needs to be taken in context of someone who is working with the resources they're given.

He is not weighing company profit against fixing a bug. He is weighing fixing one bug against fixing other bugs or adding new features/content.

[kamisama85]

2 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

So, I guess all us players can do, is try to Shift that cost/benefit balance to the point that DE evaluates the priorities Differently.

by spreading the word to those potential 'new players': that the game is a buggy mess the deeper you look, and that DE isn't interested in your long term dedication, only short term high turnover players; thus you shouldn't invest your time or money in the hype.

Yeah good luck with that.

Voting with your wallet mentality involves actual long term collective commitment to have an impact.

If things you think are important are not getting fixed right away or at all, chances are DE has seen the data and determined the number of people actually impacted are far lower than you would like to believe. Problems that actually impact a large number of players do get addressed rather quickly. And no not just problems that involve a dollar value.

You will need to do better than throw around empty threats of going on a crusade of deterring other players or -saying- you'll quit or get others to quit. This forum community in particular does not have enough unity among voices to ever achieve that either, because at the end of the day most of the loudest voices really only care about themselves and simply use "we" as a way to temporarily rally more noise in the moment.

Even the most outspoken posters (Voltage included) on this forum that speak out against topics like P2W, often calling for people to 'vote with our wallets!' in many past arguments have almost always succumbed to paying anyways. Proof is in the most recent Heirloom skin incident. These users spent days saying exactly the same thing as you: Claiming they will quit, that 'this is the last straw', that they will no longer spend a dime and DE will be sorry, that they will post these atrocious acts around the internet for all to see. But by the end of the first week almost all of them while continuing to criticize DE in the open, quietly chalked up the money and made the purchase, later stating that their hand was forced.

If you want to see some hard changes, you will need to put in as much commitment into it as the DEVs put into the actual work. And for those that will cynically claim they do no work, then expect nothing more from your flimsy attitude.

[TheArmchairThinker]

19 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

what you need to worry about is holding them to a standard befitting of a company/studio that has been in the industry for a very, VERY long time.

so many of you still think DE is hanging by a thread like they were 10 years back. it simply is not true anymore. Up your #*!%ing standards people

Any company studio that makes free to play game as benchmark? One that doesn't make any mandatory pay from inconveniences and no way to work around it?

And seeing bungie, DE is doing well enough in comparison

[Packetdancer]

17 hours ago, Zimzala said:

I have seen underinformed customers try to tell software developers they could just 'fix it in a day' if they were allowed, with no clue as to how things actually work for a couple decades now.

I had the joy once of witnessing someone post to the support thread for an aging software project and say that a given (relatively minor, but admittedly extremely annoying) bug should have been fixed ages ago, then claim "I could fix this bug in an afternoon!" They got hit with a response of "the project was literally just open-sourced last week so, please, feel free to clone the repo and spend that afternoon to fix the bug."

Five weeks later the same person posted to the mailing list again, now having had a chance to delve into the codebase and metaphorically tearing their hair out in frustration over how trying to fix this one bug had toppled an entire chain of dependency dominoes and they were going down an ever-increasing series of rabbit-holes trying to resolve the issues... and did anyone understand this one particular bit of code to help them resolve the problem without spending another five weeks on it?

In the end, it's difficult for observers to judge the complexity of a bug in a closed-source project because we don't actually have visibility into the code.

Oh, it's certainly possible to make informed guesses; those of us who have worked on large software projects which have reached a certain age, or on games professionally—or both—can often hazard a guess as to why a fix might be complicated based on personal experience, especially when observed behavior of the game does give some hints as to how a system works under the hood.

But whether or not it's accurate? Only actual folks who have worked on the game's codebase would know for sure.

And while I absolutely agree that Umbra's interaction with Helminth'd abilities is annoying, there are considerably higher priority bugs out there. The auto-melee-is-stuck bug, the "oops the Corrupted Jackal has bugged out in some spectacular fashion again" bugs, and so on... those are probably the sort of thing considered higher priority, and where engineering bugfix hours are going to get put. Especially if, as Pablo's tweet suggests, the fix for Helminth abilities on Umbra would be fairly extensive and time-consuming.

Because engineering time is not infinite, and you do have to triage which bugs you're going to prioritize.

Sure, ideally you eventually get around to every bug, but in any sufficiently large and non-stagnant codebase, new bugs will crop up. And sometimes the lower-priority bugs sort of just... well, let's just say there's a reason that I once made a snarky remark about an open-source project I was contributing to, which someone termed "Rachel's Rule." That rule being "No open and unresolved bug ticket in a software project should be older than the youngest engineer working on the project."

(Seriously, though... after two decades, at least just close the ticket with WONTFIX.)

[Waeleto]

At this point, remove the sentience passive entirely as it's not a passive anymore but a nerf

[maddragonmaster]

you know. i suddenly remember some people that says the warframe community is one of the best communitys. funny. i mean someone says something is too much work, and then they get demonized for saying they can't fix a bug that person wanted the dev to fix? 

funny how this whole thing has been almost focused exclusively on a bug that involves umbra. except for something about a glaive bug. is that all?

so why don't we focus on what DE did fix in warframe why don't we? i mean some of you say that warframe is the best community. are ya? 

i mean a probably exausted dev said 1 thing might not be possible and some of ya are already bringing out the pitch forks for crying out loud.

anyways the hotfixes are right in the updates part of these forms. go look at those fixed bugs and then just look at these 2 bugs that were focused. because why should i waste any more time?

[maddragonmaster]

oh wait. i could start of with an easy one. they reworked hydroid for the better.  you know the one that people have wanted for a while now. that one frame that is older the umbra. they just did that and this whole thread just came up? and the pets rework. 2 things that have been asked for a lot. yet some of you guys are acting like they are refusing to do any bug fixes. 

also there is that cross save thing thats taking a lot of time and energy. someone did mention that in here but i bet everyone just choosed to ignore that one.

you know that cross save gimmick that everyone has been rather persistant in reminding de about. that thing that i see get spammed a lot in their dev streams.

[Skoomaseller]

1 hour ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Any company studio that makes free to play game as benchmark? One that doesn't make any mandatory pay from inconveniences and no way to work around it?

And seeing bungie, DE is doing well enough in comparison

don't really need a benchmark, there's a certain level of expectation players should have with regards to competency when it comes to issues like this one, especially so when said company has been, again, in the industry for a while.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Skoomaseller