In the foot trails of nukers

[(XBOX)Killahead]

This is an ancient topic in the Warframe timeline, and I'm sorry to bring it up once more, but it bothers me that end-game Warframe is a more hollow experience than the early to mid game was.

I could have been a nuker. I have roughly 300 weapons, a riven for half of them, and 75% of them are fully modded. I have all the mods in the game fully upgraded. This is not to brag, because there are many of us in this decade old game, but I wanna make it clear that I do not write this post from a point of envy.

I want the squad experience to return. I'm a off-meta type of guy, and today I will typically play most stuff solo and experiment with different loadouts and playstyles. I tried to play the new netracell missions with other people, but while they were nuking stuff with their Torids and other incarnons I found no incentive to actively participate.

We have too much individual power. Everyone knows this. All it takes for three people in the squad to be bored is that one guy who runs the most meta setup possible.

Another problem: players are always doing their own thing. It seems to me that the way everyone is running around nuking stuff on their own, is the most efficient crowd control, and I mean that in a negative way. This way, spawns will be split and each player will only face a few enemies. That's why high level survival missions are a lot more fun if the squad holds one room together.

I wish for nerfs and I wish for harder missions that require teamplay in some other shape or form, if nothing else, by requiring the squad to stick together for periods of time, allowing the enemies to actually form a horde.

For this I'm sorry, I know you enjoy your power fantasy, but I ask you if it truly is a rewarding experience, always chasing that next high, potentially never finding it since nothing can match the gun you're using 95% of the time?

Maybe players would have been less tied to their power fantasy if getting rewards and loot wasn't completely dependent on mission success? I don't know. For the time being, I stick to playing solo with my weird guns. I enjoy the game a lot, it's not that, but there is untapped potential in it still. All it requries is that we change our mindset.

Merry christmas.

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

Annoying as it is, they don’t want anyone’s help, though. You might be better off trying to find like-minded players who are willing to combine builds and content in ways to let others in the squad have their moments, otherwise if some randoms who rely on their builds have to actually fight, they’ll most likely just suck and die and get angry at anyone else and then not play; the gamers who get mad at their own team tend to be the bad players in any game who don’t have enough situational awareness to actually identify who needs a hand and who doesn’t.

I’d like to actually multiplay as well, but with players who are looking for the same thing, which this game already enables but your typical rando isn’t choosing the option for a reason

[(PSN)robotwars7]

16 minutes ago, (XBOX)Killahead said:

All it requries is that we change our mindset.

never gonna happen, many people enjoy the meta too much. I definitely agree with the survival start though, I wish more people would remember that running off actually makes the spawns worse, but there's no accounting for stupidity. DE won't nerf things to the degree you want either because the community would riot, there have literally been death threats sent to DE staff over nerfs.. some people are just totally unhinged.

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

I play the game specifically because I got tired of classic MMO mechanics. 

There are plenty of games out there that restrict you, so you have to play the game only to heal people 24/7 all in the name of teamwork and mechanics. 

Warframes whole thing is freedom. 

[Xzorn]

Old Endurance runner here.

This is due to Warframe always setting the bar too low. Back 7ish years ago the bar was level 300-400. This is solo btw. I took every frame to 300+. Even the ones player's considered poopy. Of those I'd say Banshee and Ember were stand outs as requiring hyper speed play to hit that bar. Both had QT and that was it. A "chance" to survive a hit.

At that time groups had already hit the level cap and not just by cheese means like Intercept. Even via Defense in a group we had beaten the game with the previous record being able to hit 1.4 billion eHP. By comparison a 9999 Bombard rocket did 3mil. Safe to say they lost control of group synergy very early on so they couldn't reward it.

Since they couldn't reward group effort, players stopped caring about it and thus other players are just a means of getting loot faster.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

There are still those who enjoy playing with group synergy. I've been running Abating Link, Roar Trinity in this event just to keep the Kavats alive =D
Steel Path Circuit last week I used my group Banshee with her 14x Sonar and we did 10 ranks quick and easy.
I generally pick frames assuming others aren't going to think about team synergy and it often works out.

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Killahead said:

I wish for nerfs and I wish for harder missions that require teamplay in some other shape or form, if nothing else, by requiring the squad to stick together for periods of time, allowing the enemies to actually form a horde.

Harder missions yes please. Missions that require teamplay no thanks, not aslong as the game is based on peer-to-peer. Unless you mean teamplay done in a way so those mechanics are only added to a mission if there is are 2+ players in the mission. I dont want to be unable to do things solo in a game that relies on peer-to-peer. If the game was based on dedicated servers or if it was an MMO I wouldnt mind some mandatory teamplay at times.

I'm at the point right now where I cant even get myself to do fissures in groups due to the matchmaker system. The only time I go public is if there is an interception mission for the archon weekly.

[(PSN)Unstar]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Killahead said:

We have too much individual power. Everyone knows this. All it takes for three people in the squad to be bored is that one guy who runs the most meta setup possible.

I almost exclusively play auto-matched squads and I've haven't been having any negative experiences due to nukers.  In my recent adventures in the highest levels of the new Murmurtown content; there are nearly always enemies for me to bonk with my certainly-not-meta Bo Prime Incarnon and Grimoire.  I'm having a good time.

The only exception to this rule is the Netracell missions, where enemies have to be killed inside an area that they mostly spawn outside of, meaning you have periods of there being plenty of enemies, just not in a place where it's okay to kill them...and that's not any of the players' faults.

 

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Killahead said:

Another problem: players are always doing their own thing. It seems to me that the way everyone is running around nuking stuff on their own, is the most efficient crowd control, and I mean that in a negative way. This way, spawns will be split and each player will only face a few enemies. That's why high level survival missions are a lot more fun if the squad holds one room together.

What you describe here is actually backwards; the game gets easier if everyone sticks together.  That's because every AoE ability we have — from Warframe abilities to AoE weapons to room-clearing melee — gets more bang for their buck when there are more enemies there.  Let's visualize this:

4 Tenno are split up throughout the levels, and each is fighting 5 enemies.  Their actions thus affect at max 5 enemies at a time.  A CC ability affects 5 enemies, and a nuke for 100 damage does 500 damage total.

Now imagine that there are 4 Tenno together, and as a group they're fighting 20 enemies.  Suddenly CC abilities are affecting 4 times the enemies, and each individual player with a multi-enemy attack is dealing 4 times the damage per cast/shot.  This means the enemies are more easily and efficiently crowd-controlled, and it means that they will melt faster because each AoE outputs more damage and thus contributes to killing more enemies faster.

If you have more fun holding a room as a group, that's valid!  But you should realize that doing so has reduced the challenge, not increased it.

 

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Killahead said:

I wish for nerfs and I wish for harder missions that require teamplay in some other shape or form, if nothing else, by requiring the squad to stick together for periods of time, allowing the enemies to actually form a horde.

This will never happen.  There are players who go to level cap solo in Steel Path, and as long as an individual player can handle that by their lonesome, then there will never, ever be a situation where players will be required to team up.  If it's even possible to prevent such a thing, the nerfs would have to be so hard and brutal as to fundamentally change what game Warframe is.

In short, if that's the experience you want, you are playing the wrong game, and your prayers will never be answered.  But thankfully, there are plenty of other games that offer that experience if it's important to you.

As for Warframe, I've been enjoying the teamplay the game actually offers.  It's great going into a Murmurtown mission and having one player who's off collecting Voca that go into my pocket, one player who's chasing the hidden tome enemy whose reward gets marked for me to scoop up, and one player who is doing the actual mission objective.  The strength of a Tenno team is not our ability to overcome obstacles (because we can all do that individually) but rather our ability to efficiently and quickly overcome all the obstacles.

[(XBOX)XYZ RUMBEL]

No

[o0Despair0o]

Problem with nukers is that DE actively supports it.

 

Rather than balancing weapons around single targets like most melee or sidearms, they keep pumping out AoE weapons, one more powerful than the one before. Same applies to new 'frames. Enemies as well - they are so resistant to damage most of the time that single target weapons just don't have the damage to deal with them in a reasonable time frame.

 

Back when I started playing we still had a stamina system, and frames like Nyx were actually considered a welcome addition to the team for the CC.

These days nuking is the CC.

 

By now, the game is so dominated by AoE damage that everything that can't wipe out an entire room is 2 seconds flat is beyond trash tier.

Rivens? Oh yeah, they exist. Too bad that even low dispo AoE weapons are still far more powerful with even a bad riven, than the strongest single target weapon with a good riven and dispo. The opposite of what they were meant to do.

 

Yeah, nukers have been around since the dawn of time. Even when I was new I often found myself lagging behind 3 other people wiping out entire civilizations before me. But at least back then that could largely be credited to them having better mods than me. These days you don't even need mods to nuke.

 

Only fix here is to nerf AoE into the floor - and that's coming from someone who is actively against nerfing in general.

Edited December 21, 2023 by o0Despair0o

[Voltage]

It's a symbiotic relationship that just isn't going to change. Content these days is centered around this problem, because said problem has been incentivized and encouraged for years. The coffin has been nailed several times, from essentially infinite (self) revives all the way to Helminth. The only reason to play with others is because you yourself would be bored otherwise. There are several people out there though that enjoy the fact that the game is trivial for them by themself. You can't blame them either, because of how time-gated content is often, it's just less of a hassle to go by yourself to complete the weekly/daily goals that end-game has become.

People spent years complaining about Hema research (designed for an actual clan of active players), Ignis Wraith being exclusive to well-oiled clans during Operation: Pacifism Defect, Trials and their Arcanes which then became Eidolon players, you name it. Heck, Kuva Liches were supposed to be "Clan Kingpin" assassination targets.

It's really unfortunate when I read these kind of threads, and it just ends up sounding like we're having a conversation about a long-dead era of this game that won't come back. It's like listening to a Bethesda, Halo, or Call of Duty fan explain what the game(s) felt like in the "golden era" of that franchise. We've all seen or heard those voices. 2014-2017 Warframe is just not coming back. Maybe Soulframe can hit that magic again, but for Warframe, that time is long gone. Gaming in general has also shifted culturally, and this isn't exclusive to any one genre of games. Just look at the state of games ranging from Call of Duty: Modern Warfare III to Diablo IV to Starfield to Forza Motorsport. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Voltage

[trst]

If DE cared they'd provide some mode with the required nerfs (Archon Hunts already do this somewhat) and buffs to enemies (already present in multiple modes). It could be something as simple as utilizing the existing endless leaderboards, adding a higher tier variant of those modes with said changes, and providing some kind of generic evergreen type reward for engaging with it.

It could give players something more challenging, provide a non-conclave competitive environment some players want, and it'd be both optional and separate from the rest of the game.

 

But the major problem is that DE either doesn't care enough to provide anything like this for what's seemingly a tiny part of the community. And/or from the data DE has enough/most players already somehow find the base game challenging enough.

[GovernmentSecrets.gov]

If someone puts in the effort and time into acquiring the resources and necessary components to build a destructive build they should be able to do so. Situations like unlimited bramma should still be addressed like it was, but dropping a nerf as hard as OP suggests is something I strongly disagree with.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Can’t even wait five seconds for someone to come revive them when they go down…

[Sporthand]

Unless you call someone (Exterminators) for SOS

Edited December 22, 2023 by Sporthand

[Raarsi]

14 hours ago, (XBOX)Killahead said:

Another problem: players are always doing their own thing.

If FFXIV has taught me anything, it's that Western gamers have lost most patience or understanding of how to function cooperatively in a group and that "co-op" games like Warframe promote doing everything by yourself because it's always easier just not to run content than to have to rely on assistance from others.  If players prefer the former, then that means lost potential income due to people not playing and therefore not buying things from them for playing the game (cosmetics, etc.), and as a result, it's more ideal for devs to make content that allows for easier solo play.

As much as I'd love to see more enforced proper team gameplay, I'm all to aware of the financial reality of the situation.

[0_The_F00l]

I don't think DE cares anymore.

They will do the bare minimum to ensure that the least amount of players feel incompetent , but they don't particularly want to set any sort of balance to the game.

I would absolutely love a whole mechanics and stat crunch to make things more reasonable between meta and non meta gear. But that's a pipe dream.

Edited December 22, 2023 by 0_The_F00l

[Oldskinzz]

I absolutely agree people running meta builds or even any semi decent aoe build make a mission boring for the rest of the team with everything just dying before coming into sight. Thing is, aoe is simply faster and more time-efficient. A typical exterminate can take 2 minutes with an aoe build or 5 minutes killing enemies one by one. Many players just want to clear the mission fast for the rewards and move on to the next. I've done that too when I don't have much time to play. So I'm not really in favor of things getting nerfed so I need to run missions in a good team.

Also coordinating teamwork between 4 random players is another nightmare. Plus you'll get the elitist jerks screaming at others when their lofty standards aren't met. Many casual players just want to hop into a mission and play, not spend time in recruit channel typing H x mission sp 1/4...

[ReddyDisco]

16 hours ago, (XBOX)Killahead said:

I know you enjoy your power fantasy, but I ask you if it truly is a rewarding experience

Yes, i wouldn't play warframe otherwise. buildcrafting and power fantasy is what's kept me playing for over 4k hours.

[Nira]

I think the game promotes it more and more.

Next time you do a pub interception, watch how everyone runs from one point to the next, capping and losing in succession. If you point out that the round will go faster if everyone holds one point each, most will sorta go "oh right yeah", but it's a good demonstration of "switch brain off" gameplay.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Nira

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

We are a little similar but also a little different. 

Whilst I would personally like some harder missions, that reward good team work, its... a tricky thing to ask for, since not all Warframe players necessarily have the same goals, gameplay styles, motivations. Some are here to collect, some are here for the MP aspects, some the power fantasy, some for specific Warframes, weapons, some combinations of prior... we also have different ideas of whats fun, good etc When I play certain other team based games, usually you can also still solo, and even then, the goal is usually more uniform. There is usually a lot more balance as well, but also there are far far less options as far as weapons and characters too, and systems. Also the online stability is often much better. 

The main point I am trying to get to, is that having to specifically rely on other team mates in Warframe, isn't necessarily the same as enjoying good team work... 

I also personally like playing solo, a lot. Maybe around half of my current time is solo. Why? Well, I still enjoy looking at the environments, and having increased visual clarity, of the enemies, of myself and my own powers, and there are so many fun weapons, that are single shot, and reward good aim. Bows like the Daikyu, Paris, weapons like Exergis, Trumna, the new Mandonel weapon too. Extremely fun and satisfying. Granted, I usually have set ups, where I can take such weapons into MP and find success... even with people with nukes/stronger weapons. I just enjoy the pacing and ambience of going solo a lot, hence I do. That being said, I also often solo with Warframes liek Xaku, Saryn, or use weapons like Boar, Latron, Miter Incarnon, which destroy large groups of enemies. People can have multiple preferences and playstyles... I wouldn't want a rigidity where I can't enjoy that variety, even without the MP aspect. Then even adding the MP aspect... fortunately I haven't been in a situation where a single player carried that hard there is nothing left to do, unless... I strictly load into a low level Relic Capture/Exterminate late. Which is why I tend to dislike those missions, but may occasionally run them if they are the only good options for Relics and I really need a Forma BP or its new Prime time.

I also consider it a player attitude thing too. I play with many people, myself included who can nuke and destroy enemies... but take a more reserved attitude, as far as attempting to make sure, we all get to have fun and accomodate each others play styles. Unless the mission objective is at risk, Like say Disruption. No one cares for the MR30 plus getting 99% damage and kills with three brand new players excited to try out the game, on Mars Defence. Except a lot of MR30 plus people are chilled and friendly and will hold back. At least the type I have met. So... can depend on the situation. I don't expect people in certain missions to hold back though, because often usually in certain types, its really more about speed and the reward. I can't really fault that. 

That being said, I think there is some potential for accomodating more play styles via new modes too. Like the new secret boss requires relatively more team work, and active participating. I find Circuit really interesting and different as far as how people approach it via game theory. A new mode with tougher but less enemies where certain weapons are stronger, or even modes with a singular enemy but its longer or so on... Catering to and accommodating more play styles. Do wish though, that most of them should be soloed by a player prepared and practiced enough, all the same.