Rivens and Market Trading, Can they be limited to Riven for Rivens?

[SirJackDaReaper]

With cross platform trading, and even before that Rivens have always been a really chaotic market. I get that some people do in fact enjoy this because it can be easier to make anywhere between 100 and 10,000 platinum just like a lottery ticket. So I understand that when I mention the idea I do most people probably won't agree, or believe it's a unpopular opinion. I also know my writing is a mess and I might miss a few points, so at least hear me out.
And if you're not much of a reader my general points are that Rivens could be trade limited to riven for riven for the sake of the community, and the cost of them is starting to get out of hand. 

Now for the wall of text:
Riven trading should be limited to Rivens for Rivens in a special dojo room, and perhaps be limited to same-disposition trading. Selling a riven for 10,000 platinum is insane in a money aspect since someone always had to of bought that platinum and if someone has that platinum they either saved up or spent 450$ to get a mod that doesn't really alter gameplay much for some things.
Overtime I feel this will really destroy the market now that there's a cross platform market. Rivens prices are heavily affected by what's new, videos on what's meta, and things like god rolls or unrolls between person to person. Everyone has their own opinion on it like not owning one in general, or it's worth the cost because of the rng. While Rivens themselves may not be needed in gameplay, overtime if godrolls keep going beyond 2000 platinum that might start really damaging the other items being traded too. Since more and more platinum will accumulate into large piles rather than flowing smoothly from player to player. 

If riven trading was limited to only rivens for rivens, this would also really help with keeping builds under control and keep from people gravitating to them when they aren't ready for rivens. So when there's a new video preaching the newest highest dps or stat stick, that really doesn't matter unless you're doing obscene levels in stages or really specific content it doesn't suddenly become the main build to rush for. On rare occasions people like to show superiority or be incredibly entitled to their rivens either in levels or on the market, which again I can understand it's basically bragging about the lottery. This leads to people kind of following what the highest price is set as and limiting their conversations to things like: "That's (swearing) worthless or I'm only looking for (plat, p, platinum)", or short replies like "nty, nvm, i'll wait". Of course there isn't only bad responses either, there's plenty of people out there also saying positive things and negotiating where they can. But when things start becoming super expensive or skyrocketing in price, you can't really just trade freely since that's a lot of platinum you'd be giving up.

Now if the system was changed to trading only Rivens, it wouldn't be all better either since lots of people would only trade same stats for same stats and meta weapons for meta weapons but the people who want to casually trade them could do so freely without the fear of missing out on platinum. So while it would limit who can get some of them, I believe the positive of being able to trade for the ones you'd like would outweigh that negative. Since it's just as hard to afford them as a regular player, even if they're just meant for fun a lot of new players might not know that especially when people show videos of that being the best. Not everyone wants to take time doing stats and to some of them those videos are their lifeline for a build they can just get through the content with or generally have fun using.  

So realistically I know in the long run it may not affect everything as much as I think it might, but it's a scary thought to think of what would happen if it did turn out this way. What if rivens drain the market, what if it makes people less likely to trade? That ruins a whole aspect of the game that's really unique compared to other games and it's the capability to stay free to play while still earning the currency you'd use for various things in the game. 

EDIT: After everyones comments and talking about it for different ways to improve it maybe 2 other ideas would work better, having a place similar to maroos for just rivens (or I just need to visit maroos more now that it isn't dead on console) would help with trading. Don't remove the platinum way since it would just be harmful in all sorts of ways and also add a way to reroll the weapon on a riven while keeping the stats. I'll make a new post later with it explained better but I think it's a better suggestion than market crashing.

Edited February 8 by SirJackDaReaper
Just adding new info

[SirJackDaReaper]

Some other points I might of missed too:
Part of the reason i'm concerned is it really cultivates negative behavior in a small portion of the community, and if not negative behavior then negative emotions. Especially when you sell a riven for lower and later learn it might of been worth thousands. The best you can do in that situation is move on, but it doesn't feel any better knowing you missed out. 

If trading riven for rivens seems farfetched, you could also make it that you duplicate the riven once to trade to others and keep for yourself which while this would make balancing more complex and far more necessary to some extent. It would also make people less possessive of their rivens or feel less down about it if they still had the one they started with. It would also encourage buying more riven slots, or keeping only mods for weapons you use around rather than hoarding them. 

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

This is going to be good

[Agall]

7 minutes ago, SirJackDaReaper said:

cultivates negative behavior in a small portion of the community, and if not negative behavior then negative emotions. Especially when you sell a riven for lower and later learn it might of been worth thousands

Then those people need to get their stuff together and accept the reality of the world. You win some, you lose some.

 

14 minutes ago, SirJackDaReaper said:

With cross platform trading, and even before that Rivens have always been a really chaotic market. I get that some people do in fact enjoy this because it can be easier to make anywhere between 100 and 10,000 platinum just like a lottery ticket. 

This is how any market works with an extreme variety of options. This is no different than buying/selling houses. No matter what, it doesn't matter if something is worth X amount if there's no one willing to pay that amount.

15 minutes ago, SirJackDaReaper said:

Now if the system was changed to trading only Rivens,

Bad take, no riven is equal in value to another. Even if they were the same stats, disposition and the internal quality roll of a set of stats will never allow a riven to be equal.

[Hexerin]

Will never happen, both because it makes zero sense to make this change and also because the riven market is probably the second most profitable part of the game for DE (forma is the first most profitable by far, to my understanding).

[Nelsconey]

#Giveusmorerivenslots

[(PSN)robotwars7]

1 hour ago, SirJackDaReaper said:

iven trading should be limited to Rivens for Rivens in a special dojo room, and perhaps be limited to same-disposition trading. Selling a riven for 10,000 platinum is insane in a money aspect since someone always had to of bought that platinum and if someone has that platinum they either saved up or spent 450$ to get a mod that doesn't really alter gameplay much for some things.

the Riven Mafia aren't gonna be happy seeing this post.. you might log in to find a severed Kaithe's head in your orbiter tomorrow...

if you suddenly get permabanned, we know why. best thing to do with this thread is fugghedabbaoudit!

 

 

 

[trst]

No because this hurts players and potentially hurts DE.

If Rivens were only tradable like that then it becomes a nightmare for anyone to get a Riven they want as you'd be at the whim of whatever Rivens the sellers want. Like say you want a Lato Riven but the only people you can find offering one only want Rivens you don't own. Hurting everyone from meta weapon Riven hunters to those who just want their favorite wildly off meta toy to be better in higher levels.

It also hurts players who're trying to farm platinum. Whatever someone's opinions are on the Riven market is irrelevant as most Rivens are being traded in the range of a few hundred platinum (many things in-game can already go for this or more) and aren't 10k+ trades.

And because most trades aren't massive value ones it potentially hurts DE as players no longer have incentive to jump on a discount/bundle/full priced plat if all they currently want is more Rivens. Also those few (iirc nobody has ever demonstrated doing this) whales who will directly purchase 10k+ plat for a Riven trade is a lot of money not landing in DE's hands.

[SirKnum]

1 hour ago, SirJackDaReaper said:

And if you're not much of a reader my general points are that Rivens could be trade limited to riven for riven for the sake of the community, and the cost of them is starting to get out of hand. 

Riven prices in general have become much more homogenic and generally lower compared to their highs for meta rivens a couple of years ago when Eidolon hunting was much more difficult. The prices for Lanka, Vectis, and Rubico rivens were truly ridiculous at some point. But today these trades for thousands of plat for a single riven have become much more rare, you can get very good rolls for meta weapons for under 1k plat in most cases. The really good triple A grade meta rivens may be much more expensive but are also not a quick and easy sale.

1 hour ago, SirJackDaReaper said:

This leads to people kind of following what the highest price is set as and limiting their conversations to things like: "That's (swearing) worthless or I'm only looking for (plat, p, platinum)", or short replies like "nty, nvm, i'll wait".

So you made offers to people and some gave you a piece of their mind about the quality of what you are offering and others just told you in shortform that they are not interested. Have you considered that you might come across as a scammer to people if you offer rivens of little value for better stuff or want to force trades on people looking to sell? Your entire wall of text comes across as if you are frustrated because the people in trade chat and on the market sites don't exactly agree with your valuation of goods.

 

And in general nobody is forced to buy rivens, especially not the expensive ones. With a couple of exceptions for really sought after weapons you can get unrolled rivens for most weapons for the plat equivalent of a forma bundle. And that is still not necessary since there is absolutely no content in this game that requires a riven. Rivens are toys, you get them because they are fun and for the big funny numbers, not for practical reasons. 

[UnstarPrime]

I have done my best to understand your post

I've read your post a few times now in a good-faith attempt to try to parse it all into something coherent.  The hypothesis I've finally settled on is this:

Riven prices make you uncomfortable.  They seem too high to you, and you're also worried about getting a bad deal.  You don't want it to seem this scary and complicated; you'd rather just trade a Riven for a Riven and have it be a fun, casual thing.  Hence, your proposal to only trade Rivens for Rivens.

And then somewhere along the way you got the idea that maybe high Riven prices could even "destroy the market" (no explanation of what that means), and if that's the case then maybe it's urgent to implement this system to avoid some vague catastrophe?

 

Destroying the market

First off, let's start with the obvious: nothing you've said adds up to Rivens have any potential to "destroy the market".  So let's just wipe that off the table until compelling evidence for that exists.  And with respect, please avoid making fear-mongering posts in the future.  If you've got evidence, if you've done research, if you've got a sound and logical argument that there's something worthy of concern, then by all means, share it.  But "What if rivens drain the market, what if it makes people less likely to trade?" is just jumping at shadows, and that doesn't help anyone.

 

An important interlude: a basic lesson in the value of currency:

Before we proceed to the next point, let's first answer the question "why currency?", because that will be important shortly.

Bartering is hard because you have to meet the following criteria:

1. You have to have something they want.
2. They have to have something you want.
3. The two wanted things have to have approximately the same value.

This is really hard.  On average, meeting all of these conditions requires a lot of time and/or effort.

And that's what makes currency so useful: it's a general unit of value that can be exchanged for just about anything that could have value.  Because of that, we can now exchange value with much simpler criteria:

1. They have something you want.
2. You pay an agreed upon price in liquid currency that you both agree upon.

By removing the step where you have to have something that they want, the act of exchanging goods has been radically simplified.  And this is good because it makes it easier for you to both get what you want and sell what you don't.

 

Fear of bad deals

Okay, so let's tackle something that's easy to miss if we don't think our problem through: restricting Rivens to Riven-for-Riven trades won't solve your problem.  You're concerned about not receiving a fair value in exchange for a Riven, but nothing about the system you're proposing addresses that concern.  And in reality, your proposed system makes it more difficult to get a good trade for your Riven.

Because if Riven A is worth 200p and Riven B is worth 300p, removing the ability to exchange them for currency doesn't remove their relative value: Riven A will still be worth 2/3 of what Riven B is worth.  Only, now there's no way to equitably exchange my Riven A for your Riven B, because whoever gets Riven B is getting a good deal and whoever is getting Riven A is getting a bad deal.

And that's the whole benefit of currency.  It lets us exchange value without both of us needing to have actual goods of equal value that the other person wants.

 

So how do we solve these "problems"?

You don't like high Riven prices?  With respect, just treat it the same as every other price that you deem is too high and don't buy it.  But if someone else genuinely feels like they'd rather have a specific Riven than their 10,000 platinum, I don't think we should take that option away from them without a logically sound reason.

You don't want to get a bad deal?  All you can do is research.  There are a few sites where you can see price data, and you can also pay attention to the offers you see in trade chat.  But remember: just because someone is advertising a price doesn't mean that anyone is actually paying it.  Additionally, remember that "value" isn't objective; rather, it varies from person-to-person, and it also varies according to supply and demand.

 

Any other advice?

Honestly, the best suggestion that I'd give most people — but especially you — is don't trade Rivens.

You don't need Rivens.  Bartering is a hassle.  You could spend your time, energy, and money trading for snowflake mods with wildly contested values.  Or you could spend your time, energy, and money on things that will actually make your life more enjoyable.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

I recommend trying filters. 

Eventually, you'll need to have a plan for what you want when you go to trade chat, instead of looking at scrolling text and saying "this is too hard can't do it" without making an effort.

[Berzerkules]

There is no way we will go back to the old ways of Diablo 2 trading item for item trading. Even back then there were sites like d2jsp that used digital currency that had an agreed upon price that you traded items for. 

I just sold an unrolled cc/cd/dmg/-impact cobra and crane riven this morning for a sizeable sum of plat. That's a legit Khora slash stat stick right there. I don't even know what oddly specific riven I would want to trade for that thing and don't even want to imagine trying to find someone that has that riven who also want's my riven.

Riven for riven trading could work for low end trash/unrolled rivens like WTT my unrolled Dark Dagger riven for trash/unroll Ocucor riven type of stuff but for high end rivens it would be a complete nightmare. 

[Voltage]

This is a really poor suggestion to trading, but it feels like this suggestion comes from a place of having no idea how Riven trading has worked for the last 7 years.

We have trading filters, so if you're overwhelmed by chat, you can tune it to your liking. I personally like seeing every message so I can cherry pick the good deals.

If you don't like that some people earn thousands, tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands from Riven trading, you're free to join them. It's also not even that crazy, because at the end of the day, Platinum already lost its value once it's in-game since you cannot convert it back to real money. I just treat them as rare Credits. They have no use unless you plan on spending it. :)

[SirJackDaReaper]

I'm glad that lots of people joined in on the conversation and to my mess of a post. I was pretty chaotic with it and didn't really give clear points as to why I thought the bad scenarios would happen and that's fair. I was frustrated, and also do have filters to filter out rivens for this reason since I agree with the concept of just hiding and forgetting about it. 
So alternatively letting us filter out rivens with {Riven Mod: like with other configs would likely be the better result then, especially with everyone elses points.

That said, I also didn't consider the impact to DE as much as everyone else clearly did, I had the impression it could be the opposite because on console people do in fact buy rivens for higher values and after selling one don't really sell lower with the basis that they can get more by waiting. This gave the impression/concern that overtime platinum could gradually group up to higher amounts for people who sell those kinds of rivens. However I also failed to consider that what happened with Rivens also happened with companions a long time ago and that obviously didn't really break the market overtime. So as far as data goes I have to admit beside personal experience from eidolons until now, I can't offer much else which is why it's nice to get other opinions on it for whether I was just making a pointless rant or if it could have a little merit. 

I know how to make filters, and how to trade, and definitely was just tired and frustrated since it feels pretty vague sometimes, but it's nice to have gotten feedback on my rant when it could of just been dismissive comments.

[SirJackDaReaper]

11 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I recommend trying filters. 

Eventually, you'll need to have a plan for what you want when you go to trade chat, instead of looking at scrolling text and saying "this is too hard can't do it" without making an effort.

 

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

This is a really poor suggestion to trading, but it feels like this suggestion comes from a place of having no idea how Riven trading has worked for the last 7 years.

We have trading filters, so if you're overwhelmed by chat, you can tune it to your liking. I personally like seeing every message so I can cherry pick the good deals.

If you don't like that some people earn thousands, tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands from Riven trading, you're free to join them. It's also not even that crazy, because at the end of the day, Platinum already lost its value once it's in-game since you cannot convert it back to real money. I just treat them as rare Credits. They have no use unless you plan on spending it. :)

As far as filters go, is there a way to filter rivens entirely in a simple way? I've always just filtered the meta prefixes like cri cro etc. to dwindle the numbers of rivens in it and hadn't really seen any other way.

[Tsukinoki]

14 hours ago, SirJackDaReaper said:

Riven trading should be limited to Rivens for Rivens in a special dojo room, and perhaps be limited to same-disposition trading. Selling a riven for 10,000 platinum is insane in a money aspect since someone always had to of bought that platinum and if someone has that platinum they either saved up or spent 450$ to get a mod that doesn't really alter gameplay much for some things.

So basically you want to push riven trading to shady back-room type deals that is worse for everyone except scammers?
Because that is honestly what will happen.

You can't just directly trade rivens for rivens...good luck on that, and good luck finding a Lato riven that someone wants to trade for one of your rivens.

Instead what is much more likely to happen is that you go into the dojo, trade 10K plat for an ammo drum, and then go into the special riven room and trade any riven for the one you're after.

And you're 100% at the mercy of the player selling the riven to not just skip out and scam you out of 10K plat with absolutely nothing you can do about it (after all DE won't touch that as they don't want you trading plat for promises....)

 

So now instead of a safe trading interface, you just made it a risky and unsafe business to trade rivens.

Great.

What is the benefit?  To anyone?  Is there even a small benefit here?

15 hours ago, SirJackDaReaper said:

Overtime I feel this will really destroy the market now that there's a cross platform market.

How?
How will riven trading destroy the market?

I mean riven trading has been in this game for a long time already, and the player market is still functioning....

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I think I generally get the gist of what you intent and goal is. Assuming its something close to removing some of the extremes from Rivens, which can then create warped perspectives, because of the amount of Platinum involved and thereby, other larger generalised groups of players. So, even if only a small minority participate in the more extreme acts and behaviour around Rivens and Plat, it can have a wider affect on a larger group, because of how it plays into peoples desires, and wishes, and then the behaviour around that. Which can create a feedback loop of sorts. Which can also lead to shady or deceptive behaviours. Though I might be inserting some of my own perspective in there, since you sort of emphasised more on harming the market, where as I view its harm elsewhere. Either way as far as intent and goal, if above is accurate, then I am in agreement with that, personally. 

That being said, I think you perceived solution comes with as many issues and flaws, if not potentially more. Even if there could be positive consequences. Other comments have already gone into the negatives quite a bit, but yeah. Its a tricky issue to try to "solve" because essentially we are just dealing with something thats still an issue in the actual real world, as far as monetary/economic systems and attitudes, perceptions, regulations, so on. There isn't really a perfect system yet, just a bunch that depending on who you ask, may be better than others. Again, the intent and idea behind your solution is nice, and U empathise with the frustration. I personally do like Rivens and occasionally buy and sell them, but my own personal approach differs quite dramatically from many many people who are in Riven trading. Not that I judge them, I just think mine is healthier, for most people in a net positive way. My attitude is that, a Riven should be for fun, on a weapon you enjoy. Not a means to accumulating Platinum wealth. Its also, that I would never sell a Riven, for more than what I think would be reasonable, for myself to buy. Which also means, I think Rivens more than 250 - 300 Platinum, is way too much. That being said, again, I don't judge people who have a different attitude. There might be a free to play player, who by selling a Rubico riven for 2000k means they can buy a bunch of Deluxe skins, and help progress through the game. I am not a free to play player, so Plat isn't as much an issue to me personally, so I wouldn't enforce my ideas on to others, in this sense. That being said, if there is ever a weapon that I do enjoy... that suddenly becomes meta or super popular... 

There is another issue, and this is primarily if you only use the in game trading tab and not outside websites. Since to many, Rivens are a way to make fast and large amounts of Platinum, it influences the nature and types of listings involved, which also influences the way people interact with it To put it another way, and this is something that often happens around new Prime releases, and some other items, you can get listings like "WTB the newest Prime for 100p. WTS the latest Prime for 200p", as in, you have people who want to strictly be the middleman to turn profit. Also, hypothetically, if they are in chat all day, posting over and over again... they might get someone who has less time, effort, but has Plat or wants the Warframe, to make such deals. Which then means the trade chats can become bloated with such approaches, Which means, players who might be more moderate and who are less Platinum profit focused, find the tool of trade chat, being less useful. Which as referenced earlier also influences the types of interactions. Again no judgement either, its just a clash of ideas, preferences and motivations. 

Also, I don't know what the best solution is either. I wish there was one though. I also wish the Riven trade chat was in a separate tab, from Prime parts and other items. Either way, suggestion was sincere and in good faith, even if others have also pointed out the flaws. 

[Raikh]

That would just outright kill Riven availability. Everything else aside, currently you can get a Riven for any weapon fairly quickly, unless maybe the weapon only just released. Sure, some are ridiculously expensive even unrolled, but most are not and you can often trade a good number of the ones you got yourself and dont want for 10-50p unrolled and get some cheap unrolled ones for the weapons you are interested in outside of the absolute most popular weapons (or buy slots/potatoes/boosters).

If you can only trade them against each other do you seriously expect anyone to actively look to trade their random unpopular weapon riven over just foddering them to make new Rivens hoping to get something they want or just disengage from the system entirely? And as was already mentioned people will just create a much less safe workaround by trading plat and Rivens separately to sell the desirable ones for big plat anyway.

This change literally improves nothing but makes a lot of things worse and that only because a tiny fraction of Rivens is ridiculously expensive, some of which are never even sold for these prices where the seller is waiting forever for some whale to be interested enough. And you shouldn't trick yourself into Riven FOMO when you are not legitimately interested in Riven speculation, particularly because your chances of getting a God Roll thats worth thousands of Plat is incredibly tiny, hence the price to begin with. You can also always just check Warframe market for current prices when you open a new Riven, not like you get dozens at a time anyway. That then covers you missing out on an unrolled one being worth a small fortune.

Edited February 6 by Raikh

[SirJackDaReaper]

2 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I think I generally get the gist of what you intent and goal is. Assuming its something close to removing some of the extremes from Rivens, which can then create warped perspectives, because of the amount of Platinum involved and thereby, other larger generalised groups of players. So, even if only a small minority participate in the more extreme acts and behaviour around Rivens and Plat, it can have a wider affect on a larger group, because of how it plays into peoples desires, and wishes, and then the behaviour around that. Which can create a feedback loop of sorts. Which can also lead to shady or deceptive behaviours. Though I might be inserting some of my own perspective in there, since you sort of emphasised more on harming the market, where as I view its harm elsewhere. Either way as far as intent and goal, if above is accurate, then I am in agreement with that, personally. 

That being said, I think you perceived solution comes with as many issues and flaws, if not potentially more. Even if there could be positive consequences. Other comments have already gone into the negatives quite a bit, but yeah. Its a tricky issue to try to "solve" because essentially we are just dealing with something thats still an issue in the actual real world, as far as monetary/economic systems and attitudes, perceptions, regulations, so on. There isn't really a perfect system yet, just a bunch that depending on who you ask, may be better than others. Again, the intent and idea behind your solution is nice, and U empathise with the frustration. I personally do like Rivens and occasionally buy and sell them, but my own personal approach differs quite dramatically from many many people who are in Riven trading. Not that I judge them, I just think mine is healthier, for most people in a net positive way. My attitude is that, a Riven should be for fun, on a weapon you enjoy. Not a means to accumulating Platinum wealth. Its also, that I would never sell a Riven, for more than what I think would be reasonable, for myself to buy. Which also means, I think Rivens more than 250 - 300 Platinum, is way too much. That being said, again, I don't judge people who have a different attitude. There might be a free to play player, who by selling a Rubico riven for 2000k means they can buy a bunch of Deluxe skins, and help progress through the game. I am not a free to play player, so Plat isn't as much an issue to me personally, so I wouldn't enforce my ideas on to others, in this sense. That being said, if there is ever a weapon that I do enjoy... that suddenly becomes meta or super popular... 

There is another issue, and this is primarily if you only use the in game trading tab and not outside websites. Since to many, Rivens are a way to make fast and large amounts of Platinum, it influences the nature and types of listings involved, which also influences the way people interact with it To put it another way, and this is something that often happens around new Prime releases, and some other items, you can get listings like "WTB the newest Prime for 100p. WTS the latest Prime for 200p", as in, you have people who want to strictly be the middleman to turn profit. Also, hypothetically, if they are in chat all day, posting over and over again... they might get someone who has less time, effort, but has Plat or wants the Warframe, to make such deals. Which then means the trade chats can become bloated with such approaches, Which means, players who might be more moderate and who are less Platinum profit focused, find the tool of trade chat, being less useful. Which as referenced earlier also influences the types of interactions. Again no judgement either, its just a clash of ideas, preferences and motivations. 

Also, I don't know what the best solution is either. I wish there was one though. I also wish the Riven trade chat was in a separate tab, from Prime parts and other items. Either way, suggestion was sincere and in good faith, even if others have also pointed out the flaws. 

That is much more accurate towards what I wanted to say compared to my mess of text, and I also sympathize with using them for fun, a new weapon to try, or just the few missing stats in a weird build you're making. And yeah, after everyone pointed out the obvious flaws on how it could be worse it's honestly would just be nice to have an alternative somehow. Like Riven Wonder trading. 

1 hour ago, Raikh said:

That would just outright kill Riven availability. Everything else aside, currently you can get a Riven for any weapon fairly quickly, unless maybe the weapon only just released. Sure, some are ridiculously expensive even unrolled, but most are not and you can often trade a good number of the ones you got yourself and dont want for 10-50p unrolled and get some cheap unrolled ones for the weapons you are interested in outside of the absolute most popular weapons (or buy slots/potatoes/boosters).

If you can only trade them against each other do you seriously expect anyone to actively look to trade their random unpopular weapon riven over just foddering them to make new Rivens hoping to get something they want or just disengage from the system entirely? And as was already mentioned people will just create a much less safe workaround by trading plat and Rivens separately to sell the desirable ones for big plat anyway.

This change literally improves nothing but makes a lot of things worse and that only because a tiny fraction of Rivens is ridiculously expensive, some of which are never even sold for these prices where the seller is waiting forever for some whale to be interested enough. And you shouldn't trick yourself into Riven FOMO when you are not legitimately interested in Riven speculation, particularly because your chances of getting a God Roll thats worth thousands of Plat is incredibly tiny, hence the price to begin with. You can also always just check Warframe market for current prices when you open a new Riven, not like you get dozens at a time anyway. That then covers you missing out on an unrolled one being worth a small fortune.

Yes as above many others pointed out the obvious flaws in what I suggested, I don't really expect people to trade the least popular for ridiculously expensive but had the hope that if such a system were implemented it would have the effect making price comparisons less likely and focused more on trading for what you enjoy. While it would be harder to do, it'd promote passing rivens around more (again what my hope would be). Others however pointed out that the various problems that come with that are things like: Shady deals that use platinum anyway, or sheer value differences between new and old (even if I want to hopeful it would unfortunately still be accounted for in many others eyes.).

Edited February 6 by SirJackDaReaper

[Raikh]

1 hour ago, SirJackDaReaper said:

Yes as above many others pointed out the obvious flaws in what I suggested, I don't really expect people to trade the least popular for ridiculously expensive but had the hope that if such a system were implemented it would have the effect making price comparisons less likely and focused more on trading for what you enjoy. While it would be harder to do, it'd promote passing rivens around more (again what my hope would be). Others however pointed out that the various problems that come with that are things like: Shady deals that use platinum anyway, or sheer value differences between new and old (even if I want to hopeful it would unfortunately still be accounted for in many others eyes.).

Even a discrepancy in Riven value aside its very very optimistic. If you can get even just 20 Plat for a random Riven you got from your Sortie you have an incentive to go and sell it over throwing it away. If you can only trade it you need to know/estimate if its something anyone would have an interest in, figure out what you could realistically trade it for that you are also interested in and then find somebody who has one of those Rivens for trade while also wanting the specific Riven you got.

W/o a fairly expansive tool that allowed you to list your Riven and a whole number of Rivens you'd be interested in and in what state etc. this would be a fools errand and probably a waste of time for many players. Especially because Riven slots are limited and unless you spend a good amount of Plat on Riven Slots you can't really afford to keep a large stash of Rivens around purely so you have a good selection for trading.

[sly_squash]

Honestly the whole thing sounds like a scheme to promote riven bartering because OP is too lazy to price and list his own stock.

As someone who has sold around 4000 rivens in the last few years, little annoys me more than riven bartering.  I'm minding my own business when someone says

"I want your 500p laetum riven but I don't have plat so I'll trade you this Felarx that's also worth 500p instead."

 

The odds of me actually needing the thing you want to give me in exchange for the thing you really want is very low.  Currency was invented for a reason.  If your Felarx is really worth 500p, sell it for 500p and use it to buy my Laetum.  Then I can use your 500p to buy whatever I want.

When you're offering me a 500p riven to pay for one of my 500p rivens, all you're doing is creating work for me.  Now I have to delist my own riven everywhere and list your riven, all for no material gain and on top of that I lose a trade to acquire the thing.

Riven bartering is just really irritating in general, and creating a system where rivens can ONLY be bartered would be even more chaotic, exploitative, and inefficient.  Warframe trading is already godawful; this would send it back to the stone age.

[SirJackDaReaper]

3 hours ago, Raikh said:

Even a discrepancy in Riven value aside its very very optimistic. If you can get even just 20 Plat for a random Riven you got from your Sortie you have an incentive to go and sell it over throwing it away. If you can only trade it you need to know/estimate if its something anyone would have an interest in, figure out what you could realistically trade it for that you are also interested in and then find somebody who has one of those Rivens for trade while also wanting the specific Riven you got.

W/o a fairly expansive tool that allowed you to list your Riven and a whole number of Rivens you'd be interested in and in what state etc. this would be a fools errand and probably a waste of time for many players. Especially because Riven slots are limited and unless you spend a good amount of Plat on Riven Slots you can't really afford to keep a large stash of Rivens around purely so you have a good selection for trading.

Maybe having both would solve the problem? Keep the current system but add the room so that people that don't feel like dealing with it can trade riven for riven?

[SirJackDaReaper]

21 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

Honestly the whole thing sounds like a scheme to promote riven bartering because OP is too lazy to price and list his own stock.

As someone who has sold around 4000 rivens in the last few years, little annoys me more than riven bartering.  I'm minding my own business when someone says

"I want your 500p laetum riven but I don't have plat so I'll trade you this Felarx that's also worth 500p instead."

 

The odds of me actually needing the thing you want to give me in exchange for the thing you really want is very low.  Currency was invented for a reason.  If your Felarx is really worth 500p, sell it for 500p and use it to buy my Laetum.  Then I can use your 500p to buy whatever I want.

When you're offering me a 500p riven to pay for one of my 500p rivens, all you're doing is creating work for me.  Now I have to delist my own riven everywhere and list your riven, all for no material gain and on top of that I lose a trade to acquire the thing.

Riven bartering is just really irritating in general, and creating a system where rivens can ONLY be bartered would be even more chaotic, exploitative, and inefficient.  Warframe trading is already godawful; this would send it back to the stone age.

It's not so much being lazy but being frustrated that the system is seen as such without even considering the possibility. Furthermore, it's not upsetting for a person to say "No, I don't really want to deal with the work" it's upsetting to see short replies like "nty" without saying why. Like is it not worth that, ARE you listing everything everywhere on sites like warframe market? That's technically not my problem, personally I don't use sites like that, at least not yet. It was really bad on console since we didn't have enough players. I understand the difficulty to trade, I just don't understand the people who follow it like a holy doctrine without being polite. 

Usually for things like only buying unrolled, never selling lower than a set price, or not at least considering 250p + Felarx. Number 1 rule of bartering: offer more than the value not equal, to balance for the work.

Edited February 6 by SirJackDaReaper

[sly_squash]

  

22 minutes ago, SirJackDaReaper said:

It's not so much being lazy but being frustrated that the system is seen as such without even considering the possibility. Furthermore, it's not upsetting for a person to say "No, I don't really want to deal with the work" it's upsetting to see short replies like "nty" without saying why.

  I'm not considering it because just considering it is work.  If you say what you're offering is worth the same as what I'm offering, even as an avid riven trader I often need to do some research to see if I agree that this riven with this quality of roll is really worth what you think it is (particularly if I haven't been selling that type of riven for a year or two).

You can get upset when people dismiss your counteroffers, but that seems childish to me.  I told you what I want for the riven when I priced and listed it.  If you offer me something different, I owe you no explanation regarding why I don't care to accept the substitute.

 

22 minutes ago, SirJackDaReaper said:

Number 1 rule of bartering: offer more than the value not equal, to balance for the work.

This discourages trading because it discourages initiating a trade because the initiator always loses (i.e. has to give up more in value than what they gain to acquire that which they actually want).

It's also another point against the barter-only system, because plat is one thing that helps make barters manageable.  Maybe you don't have any rivens worth the 500p riven I'm offering, but you're willing to give me a riven worth about 300p and pay the other 200p directly in plat.

Intentionally disfavoring the initiator and not being able to smooth over asymmetric trades with plat are two big reasons why I claimed barter-only system would be exploitative and inefficient.

Edited February 6 by sly_squash

[Raikh]

34 minutes ago, SirJackDaReaper said:

Maybe having both would solve the problem? Keep the current system but add the room so that people that don't feel like dealing with it can trade riven for riven?

Do you need a room for that? I mean you can just do that via regular trading aswell. Dont think just adding a room specifically for that would motivate people. You'd need a platform to connect people interested in that more than anything else. And so far Dojo Rooms haven't really provided that.