Primes Should not be Side-grades

[Azamagon]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

It's based on their base stats, nothing more.

It's correct.

While that's fine (and thus makes it "correct"), that's not a fair way to compare them, as it's highly unlikely you're gonna run around with them unmodded...

[(PSN)CannaWhoopazz13]

I mean, they look cool too!  Once you hit endgame, you can bring any weapon into sorties with the right mods and do well.  True endgame is FashionFrame, this is known.  That's the only value I see in primed anything!  

[Beartornado]

25 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

When was it ever stated that prime gear is supposed to be the best possible version of a weapon? What's stopping Baro from bringing Prisma Tigris with double the crit and status of Tigris Prime?

SHHHH you can't say something like that out loud dear god they might actually do it.

[BansheePrime]

On the bright side we can look at this PA as DE chilling out on the massive power creep a little bit.

[(PSN)PaceBrkr]

Oh goodie. We're doing this again. How are the weapons compared to the vanilla version, not the variant? In that case, upgrade.

A sidegrade doesn't have to be a bad thing. This whole game is all about options. I still use both the Dex and Prime variants of the Sybaris on occasion.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, Azamagon said:

While that's fine (and thus makes it "correct"), that's not a fair way to compare them, as it's highly unlikely you're gonna run around with them unmodded...

Never said you were, it still makes my point though.

The AkBolto P has better overall stats, it is not necessarily a side grade and perhaps throwing the term around is a little foolish.

In fact, since you bring up modding that supports my point, the Prime has arguably better stats overall. Better ammo economy, higher sustained DPS and higher status chance and crit stats. Mods will only increase the distance between the two weapons because of this.

Base stats can tell you a lot.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

5 minutes ago, maj.death said:

On the bright side we can look at this PA as DE chilling out on the massive power creep a little bit.

True, but what bothers me as well is the DE keeps releasing side grades and because people feel that they are underwhelming they try to buy a riven for that weapon spending even more.

 

IDM if each prime is significantly stronger than the regular, what bothers me tho is that either way it convinces late game players to opt into the broken, disgustingly profitable, and predatory riven system, where even if it does not appear as an obligation is a real damn nod and poke.

 

It was clear since hydroid that DE's primes dont sell based on the frame its for the plat and the accessories. Hydroid's prices tanked day one from 900 to 150-200 yet they barely did anything to mirage prior to her PA

Edited December 12, 2017 by Eureka.seveN

[Blade_Wolf_16]

il y a 7 minutes, Azamagon a dit :

Akbolto Prime is weak at base (32 vs 50), yes and has lower RoF (7 vs 10). Though note that the lower RoF is negligble at the moment, as semi-auto fire rate is capped at 10 anyway (easily achieved with Lethal Torrent).

BUT

It also has guaranteed crits with Primed PG (36% vs 10%), higher critmultiplier (2.8x vs 2.0x), HALF the reloadspeed (1.3 vs 2.6), bigger magsize (40 vs 30), slightly more statuschance (14% vs 12,5%) and 4 great polarities (VVV- vs D-).

Overall, it's a nice improvement. It's more reliable and has lots of QoL to it, at the cost of some basedamage (but with crits in mind, it is still vastly stronger than the base)

----

Kogake Prime loses critchance (16% vs 20%) and critmultiplier (1.8x vs 2.0x), but has DOUBLE damage (70 vs 35) and a HUGE upgrade to status chance (34% vs 10%), along with 3 great polarities (VVV vs None).

Overall, that's also a big improvement. While it has slightly less critpotential, it's got huge improvements to counteract the losses as well. Now, consider Condition Overload and you have an absolute monster of a DPS-weapon.

So for the Akboltos, one is a crit beast with bigger mag size, half the reload speed, 4 polarities and slightly better status, while the other one basically have more raw damage, an innate Syndicate proc that activate once in a while and fire rate (which doesn't really matter for semi-auto). 

You call that a sidegrade? Geez Voltage, I wonder what you consider powercreep then :/

 

For the Kogake... Welp, pretty good from what I can see. Bit less crit, 2x the damage and 3.4x the status chances. Way better than the original.

Compared to the Prisma Obex... Less crit, more status, more damage (a lot more). Both are good.

[aligatorno]

The prime might have lower base damage, but it has higher crit chance [36 vs 10], higher crit multiplier [2.8x vs 2.0x], better status [14% vs 12%] , better reload speed [1.2s vs 2.6s] higher mag size [40vs30]. This looks to me more as an upgrade rather than a side grade. It has better scalability and better sustained damage with that halved reload speed. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by aligatorno

[Kuestenjung]

You are talking about sidegrades and yet you are comparing the AkBolto P with the Telos AkBolto? That is so wrong like everyone comparing Dragon Nikana with Nikana P.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Kuestenjung

[Kyryo]

In a game where CHROMA 313% power exist, do we even need weapons? Even an MK-1 Kunai can kill a bombard. 

 

BTW, i never liked both the kogake or the akbolto. Cool-looking MR fodder.

[Gilmaesh]

just looking at the stats of my favorite secondary i can tell i will love the prime. higher crit and faster reload :megusta: 

I'm glad my rivens for this weapons are so compatibles with the prime.

[AEP8FlyBoy]

A lot of subjective arguments being made here, from a player who hasn't even attained these weapons and tested them out fully modded because they released literally an hour ago.

*sigh*

Not everything new has to be overpowered in every field imaginable. Sometimes, a generous boost in one field and a little takeaway in another is enough. No reason to freak out, its all MR fodder in my eyes anyway. (Not saying that I won't at least give them a chance, but I haven't farmed them up yet.)

Edited December 12, 2017 by AEP8FlyBoy

[phoenix1992]

Ladies, ladies...

The question is - which one scales better with rivens.

[(PSN)Unstar]

49 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Right from the Wiki: "Primes frequently sport improved damage, more Polarity slots, or other stat changes that grant them an advantage over their non-Prime derivatives."

The non-Prime derivative is a weapon called the Akbolto.  You should be comparing the Abolto Prime to that, not the Telos version.

[DrBorris]

LOOOOOL

 

Akbolto Prime a side grade? Bro... please, think before you speak. Telos Akbolto has around 17k sustained DPS. Akbolto Prime has 36k sustained DPS. This is modded of course, because balancing weapons without the thought of mods is dumb (given how mods scale differently with crits). Unless you think Soma Prime needs to have its base damage trippled, but then again, that is also dumb.

 

Crits man, they hurt.

 

And as for Kogake, did you miss that they deal twice the base damage? Or did you want to leave that out because it hurt your argument.

 

(Also, Prime weapons should be side-grades if their counterpart is already end-game material).

 

Edit: Just noticed my pre-set critical secondary build in my DPS calculator was missing the fire rate from Lethal Torrent (the base damage pre-set was not), so the difference is actually even bigger.

Edited December 12, 2017 by DrBorris

[Lion]

9 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

When was it ever stated that prime gear is supposed to be the best possible version of a weapon? What's stopping Baro from bringing Prisma Tigris with double the crit and status of Tigris Prime?

Well, I wont argue about the possibility about Prisma weapons being better because we already have a slight precedent for it with Prisma Skana > Skana Prime.

That said, the non-primed Warframes and weapons we use are an inherently lower quality by virtue of mass production (quantity over quality). In the same token, the exclusive Primed version should not be of a lesser quality than its base variant.

[GrayArchon]

2 hours ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Right from the Wiki: "Primes frequently sport improved damage, more Polarity slots, or other stat changes that grant them an advantage over their non-Prime derivatives." Why should an easier to obtain version of a weapon offer more than the Prime variant that takes relics, traces, and RNG to unlock?

Yeah, I'm fine with Primes being better than the base models (Akbolto), but we're talking about two different variants – Prime vs Syndicate – so I'm asking for your source there. Your OP sounded like it was said somewhere officially (not what amounts to a summary page on the wiki) that Primes must be the best possible variant. Unless that is indeed the case, there's not really an argument to be made here.

Facility of acquisition isn't really a factor, since Warframe isn't very linear in that sense (Saryn Prime was arguably easier to obtain than vanilla Saryn before she went into the vault; Mirage Prime can be obtained as many times as you want whereas Mirage can only be obtained once, etc).

[TheGrimCorsair]

1 hour ago, Beartornado said:

SHHHH you can't say something like that out loud dear god they might actually do it.

This, but Dex Tigris.

[m101011]

i dont know what people were expecting i told them it was going to be a meh batch of primes. primes are only better than their normal counterparts. syndicate versions can be better. look at the tigris. the akbolto is just another vasto prime or fang prime. "but muh crit multiplier" yea and with that base damage its not even lex prime level. why? low mr requirement. walp now that that is settled i expect the akbolto riven price to fall like the glaxion riven price fell after every one had seen the buff in action many months ago

[(PSN)robotwars7]

let's face it, you don't need top-tier weapons for much in Warframe, these Primes are still powerful enough. nice to see we finally get a much-needed Primed Sparring weapon.

[IceColdHawk]

Out of all weapons that got primed that could have got sidegraded stats, they decided to go with akbolto and kogake...some of the worst tenno weapons. Meanwhile tigris, galatine, sybaris, soma, boltor etc. are complete upgrades over their normal version. Sure, kogake and akbolto prime are effectively stronger than their normal versions especially in modded state. Doesn't mean they're good or that they really needed to have some STATS nerfed...

Hell, freaking akstiletto prime has not only an abysmal bit more fire rate than the akbolto prime, no, it also has HIGHER BASE DAMAGE while being FULLY AUTOMATIC and HITSCAN. And if that wasn't everything, it also has WAY higher status and the ability to strip armor. This is just sad. At least the kogake prime looks halfway decent enough.

 

Edited December 13, 2017 by IceColdHawk

[(PSN)Silverback73]

5 hours ago, Zephyr_TheMLGPro said:

It has less damage than telos but has base 35% crit and reaches to 103% with just primed pistol gambit. Not to mention you can pretty well hit orange crits with a good riven

DE rewards those who dig deep enough to find their hidden gems...

[Carnage2K4]

7 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

it's not strange, since it would hurt his argument.

Have to agree, I've heard Akbloto is a crit monster.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

7 hours ago, aligatorno said:

The prime might have lower base damage, but it has higher crit chance [36 vs 10], higher crit multiplier [2.8x vs 2.0x], better status [14% vs 12%] , better reload speed [1.2s vs 2.6s] higher mag size [40vs30]. This looks to me more as an upgrade rather than a side grade. It has better scalability and better sustained damage with that halved reload speed. 

I don't know why people don't get just how crazy good it is that this weapon reloads TWICE AS FAST as it's supposed side-grade variant.

Edited December 13, 2017 by (PS4)Silverback73