[22.20.5] Spores Revisited Feedback MEGATHREAD

[Sasuda]

 

 

19 hours ago, Shonaney said:

There are also other counters that (mostly) reset.

 

I run a build with 30m spread, 100% status, 5% decay rate and 9% reset decay.

And as far as i could tell, Saryn seems to be usefull.

Ok she is no longer the fire and forget, but may compare to other frames first abilitys.(It's also fire and forget now, just with some kind of attention to it, if u keep on killing/shooting it will spread and killing and shooting is what we do in warframe).  An also scaling ability like Khoras, first good initial dmg cause scale with melee mods and if u use it also with combocounter. But u have to do sth with it, u have to use it, u have to push 1 ... 1 ...1 everytime u see an enemy. And spores? Hit 1, kill the enemy or just hit it with lash active and you spread it up to 45m range, you now could just go on. If u keep on and killing also some of the infected(or with lash just hitting) you could carry the spore just by doing normal interactions like u have to most of the missions with other frames. It become a wave following your path at the stage and if the damage got high enough to insta kill the enemys it has reached the point of other first abilitys, like killing stuff by hittin 1 ...1 ...1 but hey, the dmg decays, so you dont have to do that for a long time cause the spores will drop to a amount u could spread it again without insta kill the initial enemy.

An other way would be to limit spores to max 5% (or 10%) of enemy max hp per tick (so 3 spores tick with 15% dmg (or 30%)). So it would be possible to spread it to enemys without insta kills but also kill enemys fast. (Also could the 10 infected count to dmg ramp up be removed).

(Limit to max mean it doesnt do 5% dmg all the time, but if the ramp hits a high amount of dmg not all of the dmg count for the ticks. So if u have 200 dmg stored a spore would tick with 5 points at a 100 hp enemy, 50 points at a 1000 hp enemy or with 200 at a 10k hp enemy.)

Spread on kill feels more natural, but if it get back into saryn, it needs to be adjusted to not spread around crazy and end as fire and forget. Otherwise spore have to become the 4th ability of saryn.

?

Not sure why you quoted me here. My post here was directly relating to the Spores rework if you want to see some of my feedback on Saryn overall it's in the spoiler.

Spoiler

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/955023-developer-workshop-saryn-revisited-20/?page=16&tab=comments#comment-9755274

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/955023-developer-workshop-saryn-revisited-20/?page=33&tab=comments#comment-9759122

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/955023-developer-workshop-saryn-revisited-20/?page=38&tab=comments#comment-9767147

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/957215-update-2220-saryn-revisted-20-feedback-megathread/?page=20&tab=comments#comment-9780809

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/959752-dev-workshop-spores-revisited-saryn/?page=7&tab=comments#comment-9793806

 

Yeah I've tested some similar builds, they're functional but again that's a lot of range investment (190). Spores is dependent on that range, Anything below 160 and there's not point using it really.

Saryn is still useful of course, I don't think Saryn is overall better than her prerework state in terms of gameplay or function though. (why is in the spoiler I'm not going to repeat it here since it's already getting a bit off topic from Spores). Currently bugs are hindering my assessment of the current Spores but my 3 points:
- The 10 enemy cap should be a soft cap
- Spread on spore kill should be changed from 0 to a reduced 1/4 spread range on spore kill
- Drain of decaying damage is still too high for use outside ESO given it's current range/damage restrictions together
Remain as things I think really should be changed on Spores for it to be good to play with. I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting for sure but it sounds like you're talking about reworking the damage again and it looks like it would be more or less a Viral like effect. In that case Spores could really be just changed back to Viral. (Which although honestly is my preference in the matter since I think it was already in a pretty good spot before changes it just needed basic changes to the ability. But it's highly unlikely DE will revert the change. They really seem to dislike the thought of that. So then going with the new model these are the changes I suggest) Otherwise she feels pretty locked into builds and her Spores usage has arbitrary-feeling fluctuations and weaknesses. The reason they are issues is that Spores really doesn't work well/do much on the majority of missions outside of Onslaught.

[xaeltyr]

I've tried a lot of mod combinations of mixing power strength and duration for the sake of testing, and the decay gets ridiculous really quickly--too quickly, no matter how fast I'm running around (ie. chasing after) to pop the spores. Don't get me wrong, I have always played and loved Saryn this way and I can contest that the damage ramp was insane pre-patch, but maintaining a sizable number whilst keeping enemies infected is a tedious chore, not to mention recasting or--god forbid--if there was even one other Saryn in the squad. Stopping to take a sip of water and suddenly having all that damaged I racked up to disappear in the blink of an eye... kinda stings a bit.

At a certain point I'd stop using spores for the damage and more for the status, but that seems counter-intuitive for this rework in the first place, no? Since spores doesn't stack or spread on kill anymore, casting Miasma is almost like I'm shooting myself in the foot; health is halved, the racked up damage ticks, they all die, spores dissipate, the decay kicks in and I nearly have to start from scratch. At least pre-patch, when the damage scaled with spores and not enemies infected, getting the numbers back wasn't so bad even when it completely reset.

I don't know, full suggestions isn't my forte, but I feel if the decay is percentage based, the build up should be percentage based as well. That way the damage is proportionate to the health of the enemies you are currently facing. Bring back spread on kill, reduce and make the range fixed if you have to, because as it is it's difficult to build around it on top of the rest of her changes. Also let spores stack again, reduce the damage scale if that's what it takes. Do something about having more than one Saryn in a squad. Please.

Edited May 26, 2018 by xaeltyr

[Kaerd]

I think the problem lies with the fact that in trying to balance spores, Pablo has a very difficult task. Turning Saryn from a spore turret to a more active playstyle while keeping her viable is in direct contradiction to having spores do lots of damage. In the last thread I tried to concentrate on suggestions that would help spores be better to use, but this isn't helping. I think a complete overhaul is needed. 

The question is, how do we keep spores useful, but at the same time keep Saryn from just standing there chaining spores from one spot and wiping the map? I can really only think of one way.

Take damage power away from Spores. 

I hate to say it, but the only way to make Saryn be a caster and not be an AFK queen, is to not let spores do much damage. Take away the damage scaling with power strength. But they still need to be useful, and really the only way to do this is to have them proc Viral or Corrosive. Which is better? Corrosive lets teams run other auras, but there are more ways in game to strip armor in larger scales than there are to spread viral damage. My vote would be for viral, which would remain as a status on enemies longer due to Saryn's passive, and actually have synergy with my next suggestion, which is:

Bring back Toxic damage spread with spores.

Toxic damage spread coming back would have two purposes. It keeps toxic lash useful by allowing you to not have to run gas or toxic builds, and it would negate the damage loss to spores by allowing you to transfer a percentage of your weapon damage as a toxin proc to spores that pop on an enemy that you kill. That damage would then tick on enemies that are infected, but the toxin proc should not be allowed to chain further. If you want to spread a whole new set of toxin procs, you would have to recast new spores to poison which brings me to:

Hold 1 to explode spores.

If you want to keep spreading toxin procs, with the limitation on the spread using spores (the spores spread from an enemy dying or spores being popped by weapon using toxic lash wont further spread toxic procs), exploding current spores actually becomes useful. You can pop all active spores, allowing you to continue your toxin stacking by removing all poisoned spores, and recasting to respread more toxic procs on a new set of spores.  To me this introduces a tactical and active style where you are not penalized for bursting your spores, but instead are rewarded by allowing you to stack toxic procs for good damage. It would work like the spore damage counter, except that you build the counter damage by stacking toxin procs yourself instead of some background counter running on its own. No decay, no penalty, none of that crap. Spore burst might not be needed anymore, since the focus is on building up toxin proc count. Maybe make spores popping refresh any current viral or toxic proc duration?

Turn Toxic Lash into a group buff a la Rhino roar.

Herding cats is probably easier than trying to put spores on your teammates to give them that toxic buff, and using the augment is really a waste. Giving your teammates toxic damage should be folded into toxic lash to promote a group synergy, with the augment affecting anyone buffed by toxic lash. Make the augment for Spores give you the ability to cast them on Molt. That way its painful to choose between turret style, or a useful mod. Don't forget, that with the above changes, sporing an entire room with the Molt turret, will do absolutely nothing, except spread corrosive/viral procs. The damage ticks will be too low to kill anything. It would then give Saryn some utility and flexibility, but now its a real choice. Give up a useful mod to spread stuff easier from a central location? Depends! It would work out well on more mission types like exterminations, capture, etc, where you are moving quickly through the map and want to easily spread spores around so you can do some work. But it would be of limited use in endless type missions, where you can do the same thing as efficiently or better than using Molt turret. This could work very well with Miasma change I suggested (see below) in order to get a jump start on toxin proc cascade effect, but it wouldn't be spammable due to the stack requirement. With this change, in effect, being able to cast spores on molt from the get go would not be viable. 

Rework the damage counter and tie it to Miasma

The damage counter is not fun. It's stressful, and your experience on Saryn devolves into concentrating on that stupid counter and the minimap instead of enjoying the game. The stack system on Nidus is great. It's fun, useful, but its a passive tool that you manage as you play. At no point does it become your sole focus, unlike with Saryn. Suggestions for rework? I think tying it to Miasma is a viable alternative. Maybe even change Miasma to use up those stacks, like Nidus does. Give the counter a cap, say 100, and rework Miasma to use stacks for casting. I don't think Miasma's power/range/etc. should be affected by the stacks. Again what I am trying to avoid is having to build those stacks super high to do damage or be useful. That's stressful and not fun. I'm not sure if Miasma should have any changes done to it. No more energy pizza Miasma spam. You gotta go build those stacks and earn that Miasma. Now you have to ask, do I really need to use Miasma now, or can I wait a bit more? But more importantly, you aren't punished for making a bad call on that. Reworking the counter system and how it should build, and how fast, I could use suggestions on. 

P.S. Add an effect to Saryn where the higher the stacks, she gets some spore particle effect around her that grows in intensity as she builds up her Miasma counter. Sort of like a protomolecule effect from The Expanse (look it up if you haven't watched that, then watch it, it's an awesome show).

Miasma

As I wrote above, tie Miasma to the new counter system. With Spores back at viral damage, I'd make Miasma work the following way: Upon casting, enemies are stunned, and a fast moving toxic cloud spreads outwards from the player, popping spores with a toxic proc as it goes and making them spread a toxin proc to enemies in a certain radius. Basically, what it would do is a toxin stack overload. In a clump of enemies, every spore that pops does a toxic proc to enemies within say, 10m (random number picked) and you could potentially end up with enemies with a large number of toxin stacks on them ticking away. Spores popped by Miasma DO NOT spread. This lets you cast your own spores and start infections over, similar to popping spores on your own. I think one way would be for every 10 toxin ticks to give you a stack? Maybe every 5 toxin ticks? Hard to say without being able to play it. This would incentivize a player to get active on spreading those toxin procs in a very active manner so they can have Miasma available if needed. Obviously, while Miasma is active, you can't build stacks. Otherwise the mechanic would allow you to potentially make more stacks than you used. After a delay similar to how syndicate proc delays work, stacks could start being built back up.

Basically with these changes, we no longer rely on spores for damage. Before you cry foul though, recognize that the onus of building that damage is now on the player, but Saryn would empower her team mates to also accomplish this with Toxic Lash rework. Id like to see a large area full of spored enemies, that I now have to hunt down and kill with toxin procs and other abilities, at the same time managing my spore spread in order for me to get those nice toxic procs stacked. As new enemies show up, yes you have to start over on building toxic procs on them, but that can quickly ramp up. I don't see the need for Saryn to have corrosive damage. Her kit should be built around bypassing armor, but in a way that requires active work by Saryn and her team to take advantage of this. 

 

Edited May 26, 2018 by Kaerd

[leirynot]

14 minutes ago, Kaerd said:

I think the problem lies with the fact that in trying to balance spores, Pablo has a very difficult task. Turning Saryn from a spore turret to a more active playstyle while keeping her viable is in direct contradiction to having spores do lots of damage. In the last thread I tried to concentrate on suggestions that would help spores be better to use, but this isn't helping. I think a complete overhaul is needed. 

The question is, how do we keep spores useful, but at the same time keep Saryn from just standing there chaining spores from one spot and wiping the map? I can really only think of one way.

Take damage power away from Spores. 

I hate to say it, but the only way to make Saryn be a caster and not be an AFK queen, is to not let spores do much damage. Take away the damage scaling with power strength. But they still need to be useful, and really the only way to do this is to have them proc Viral or Corrosive. Which is better? Corrosive lets teams run other auras, but there are more ways in game to strip armor in larger scales than there are to spread viral damage. My vote would be for viral, which would remain as a status on enemies longer due to Saryn's passive, and actually have synergy with my next suggestion, which is:

Bring back Toxic damage spread with spores.

Toxic damage spread coming back would have two purposes. It keeps toxic lash useful by allowing you to not have to run gas or toxic builds, and it would negate the damage loss to spores by allowing you to transfer a percentage of your weapon damage as a toxin proc to spores that pop on an enemy that you kill. That damage would then tick on enemies that are infected, but the toxin proc should not be allowed to chain further. If you want to spread a whole new set of toxin procs, you would have to recast new spores to poison which brings me to:

Hold 1 to explode spores.

If you want to keep spreading toxin procs, with the limitation on the spread using spores (the spores spread from an enemy dying or spores being popped by weapon using toxic lash wont further spread toxic procs), exploding current spores actually becomes useful. You can pop all active spores, allowing you to continue your toxin stacking by removing all poisoned spores, and recasting to respread more toxic procs on a new set of spores.  To me this introduces a tactical and active style where you are not penalized for bursting your spores, but instead are rewarded by allowing you to stack toxic procs for good damage. It would work like the spore damage counter, except that you build the counter damage by stacking toxin procs yourself instead of some background counter running on its own. No decay, no penalty, none of that crap. Spore burst might not be needed anymore, since the focus is on building up toxin proc count. Maybe make spores popping refresh any current viral or toxic proc duration?

Turn Toxic Lash into a group buff a la Rhino roar.

Herding cats is probably easier than trying to put spores on your teammates to give them that toxic buff, and using the augment is really a waste. This should be folded into toxic lash to promote a group synergy. Make the augment able to cast spores on Molt. That way its painful to choose between turret style, or a useful mod. Don't forget, that with the above changes, sporing an entire room with the Molt turret, will do absolutely nothing, except spread corrosive/viral procs. The damage ticks will be too low to kill anything. It would then give Saryn some utility and flexibility, but now its a real choice. Give up a useful mod to spread stuff easier from a central location? Depends! It would work out well on more mission types like exterminations, capture, etc, where you are moving quickly through the map and want to easily spread spores around so you can do some work. But it would be of limited use in endless type missions, where you can do the same thing as efficiently or better than using Molt turret. 

Rework the damage counter and tie it to Miasma

The damage counter is not fun. It's stressful, and your experience on Saryn devolves into concentrating on that stupid counter and the minimap instead of enjoying the game. The stack system on Nidus is great. It's fun, useful, but its a passive tool that you manage as you play. At no point does it become your sole focus, unlike with Saryn. Suggestions for rework? I think tying it to Miasma is a viable alternative. Maybe even change Miasma to use up those stacks, like Nidus does. Give the counter a cap, say 100, and rework Miasma to use stacks for casting. I don't think Miasma's power/range/etc. should be affected by the stacks. Again what I am trying to avoid is having to build those stacks super high to do damage or be useful. That's stressful and not fun. I'm not sure if Miasma should have any changes done to it. No more energy pizza Miasma spam. You gotta go build those stacks and earn that Miasma. Now you have to ask, do I really need to use Miasma now, or can I wait a bit more? But more importantly, you aren't punished for making a bad call on that. Reworking the counter system and how it should build, and how fast, I could use suggestions on. 

P.S. Add an effect to Saryn where the higher the stacks, she gets some spore particle effect around her that grows in intensity as she builds up her Miasma counter. Sort of like a protomolecule effect from The Expanse (look it up if you haven't watched that, then watch it, its an awesome show).

Miasma

As I wrote above, tie Miasma to the new counter system. With Spores back at viral damage, I'd make Miasma work the following way: Upon casting, enemies are stunned, and a fast moving toxic cloud spreads outwards from the player, popping spores with a toxic proc as it goes and making them spread a toxin proc to enemies in a certain radius. Basically, what it would do is a toxin stack overload. In a clump of enemies, every spore that pops does a toxic proc to enemies within say, 10m (random number picked) and you could potentially end up with enemies with a large number of toxin stacks on them ticking away. Spores popped by Miasma DO NOT spread. This lets you cast your own spores and start infections over, similar to popping spores on your own. I think one way would be for every 10 toxin ticks to give you a stack? Maybe every 5 toxin ticks? Hard to say without being able to play it. This would incentivize a player to get active on spreading those toxin procs in a very active manner so they can have Miasma available if needed. 

Basically with these changes, we no longer rely on spores for damage. Before you cry foul though, recognize that the onus of building that damage is now on the player, but Saryn would empower her team mates to also accomplish this with Toxic Lash rework. Id like to see a large area full of spored enemies, that I now have to hunt down and kill with toxin procs and other abilities, at the same time managing my spore spread in order for me to get those nice toxic procs stacked. As new enemies show up, yes you have to start over on building toxic procs on them, but that can quickly ramp up. I don't see the need for Saryn to have corrosive damage. Her kit should be built around bypassing armor, but in a way that requires active work by Saryn and her team to take advantage of this. 

 

Now this is the sort of Saryn I know and love. Sporing enemies as a debuff in order to spread your toxin procs around, using them to buff your other things, not as your primary damage source. It's how I played her before the rework and I found her incredibly fun and active running around toxic proccing enemies. New Saryn feels like some annoying cookie clicker game to me where you have to keep on clicking that button or you lose literally all progress.

[AdunSaveMe]

On 2018-05-25 at 12:26 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

The bulbous pockets of corrosive popping goodness have been through the devs’ workshop and are here with some new changes! After you've had a chance to thoroughly test all of the changes to Spores below, we'd love to hear what you think! 

As always, please keep your feedback constructive and provide videos/images where possible.

• Spores can be re-cast while active and will no longer detonate all active Spores. 
  • Recasting on enemies will put new Spores on a target with a 20% decrease to its damage per second (scales with Ability Strength) for 50% of the Energy cost. 
• Fixed inconsistent spreading ranges with Spores when killing an infected enemy by establishing a new base range of 16m across all spreading conditions. 
• Removed spread on enemies that die to a Spore’s tick damage. 
• Spores’ damage growth over time per Spore is now determined per enemy infected. And with it, a max limit of 10 infected enemies to maintain a max damage growth limit over time. To better explain this change and how it all breaks down, let’s compare:
  • Was: Damage growth is determined per Spore, so 1 damage per Spore every second. For example, let’s say there are 5 enemies. You cast Spores on one of the enemies in that group. 3 Spores are now active on that enemy. Damaging that enemy with Toxic Lash disperses a single Spore to the surrounding 4 enemies for a grand total of 7 Spores (4 enemies with a single Spore + the 3 original Spores on cast). This maintains a damage growth of 7 damage every second. 
  • Now: Damage growth is determined per enemy infected, so 2 damage (can be modded with Ability Strength) per enemy infected by Spores every second up to a maximum of 10 enemies*. So, using that same example, 5 infected enemies would set the damage growth to 10 damage every second (Modded damage growth of x * # of enemies infected up to 10). Reaching 10 infected enemies would set the maximum damage growth at 20 every second.
    • *The number of infected enemies is uncapped! You can infect more than 10 enemies, but the damage growth is dependent on that max. 
• Damage per second will now “decay” (decrease over time) when no infected enemies remain. 
  • The damage per second you’ve accumulated will first instantly drop by 20%, which will then commence the decay of the remaining damage by 10% per second (scales with Duration mods).
  • Decaying can be observed in the damage per second meter located above Saryn’s ability icons. 
  • Nullifying effects (including Data-Conduits) increases the decay by 30% per second.

Curious about the details on how and why? Check out the Spores Revisited dev workshop!

Spores NEED to spread on death. I will take any nerf other than this.

Without it, she feels extremely clunky to play and it's a lot harder to enjoy.

[Hamsterius]

1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Without it, she feels extremely clunky to play and it's a lot harder to enjoy.

Considering Onslaught, who knows? Maybe that was their goal all along.
Not a hard nerf that'll make people scream Viver, something small and grating to make players gradually drop and forget her.

[myuushii]

Adding to my previous post;

I played some more in group play in various modes and want to clarify why she feels frustrating to play for me now. Everything she does feels like just spamming 1 now and that's merely for trying to kill an enemy group that you have to finish off with a weapon anyway. So what's the point of using spores again? I might as well use a frame that does this more efficiently now or simply use any of the plethora of weapons that can handle single enemies or entire groups on it's own.

Adding to that, it feels like Saryn is racing against herself. If I play Saryn, I want to play as said "queen of decay". So I use Spores. But if spores get too strong, and you run towards a group trying to spread them, they just end up dying from ticks before you can kill them with weapons and it feels like you just got denied the fun. Power isn't the issue, I liked how the rework spores worked and killing groups with an OP ability is fun. I had no issue when when those spores ended up getting so strong that they wiped the map and reset their damage. That made sense to me. It felt like I accomplished the goal of spores and using Saryn.

Now more often then not, I sit at 600 spore dmg and end up casting on an enemy who gets killed right before me by a team member or even my own Sentinel before the spore can spread or the spore itself gets so strong that the initial spore kills the enemy and doesn't spread. I also ended up ignoring fallen team mates until really necessary because seeing the spore damage decay so fast felt like I was playing wrong. I was too concerned trying to spread spores that I ended up ignoring Miasma again. The issue with Molt has been mentioned multiple times as well and toxic lash is fine but it actually doesn't feel like it's there. It's just an active buff, so Saryn became the spam 1 frame. Racing against itself and the teammates.

I don't really have a suggestion to fix this other than allowing spores to spread on death again, and honestly, I would trade recasting spores for it. If there's a possibility to combine the two somehow and keep the ability on a certain condition then I suppose that would be the best case. Like holding the button to reset/explode spores like they did but pressing it normally allow it to recast them at the cost of stack dmg. Hell, you might even half the dmg for every recast.

Additionally, I would like to see Miasma interact with spores beyond more damage for itself. Technically that helps spreading spores if Miasma kills infected enemies, but I would like if Toxic Lash simply affected Saryn's weapons AND her abilities. Allowing Miasma damage to spread spores, not just by killing. This could be applied to Molt as well, where shooting or destroying it when it was created with Toxic Lash, let's it emit a close proximity toxin/gas cloud near itself, helping to spread spores on its damage. This bonus toxin damage doesn't need to be very strong. I suppose an increased Lure effect on Molt might be necessary for this though. Drawing enemies in range closer to it a little bit, helping the the decoy effect.

As overkill, Toxic Lash could simply emit a small cloud surrounding Saryn on activation like a mini Miasma but Toxic with shorter range/dmg. With the included effect of spreading spores if it damages enemies. If above suggestion are not in question it could buff teammates, giving them said Toxic Lash effect and maybe small increment of the same weapon damage buff Saryn receives, although I don't really like this idea. If literally everything in range of Saryn has a the ability to spread spores on dmg contact, the spread by spore tick might not be necessary. The current spores are much more energy hungry than the initial rework ones, so it's not like you can just spam all 4 ability all the time, especially Miasma. I honestly would wish for the 3.0 Spores back for this though (the non recastable ones). 

I dunno if this would be busted or not, but an energy reduction cost for her 3 other abilities based on spore dmg or number of infected enemies would be nice. 1% per 100 dmg/1% per enemy or something (with cap at like 50% or whatever although in 95% of play this would never go above 15%-20% anyway).

Edit: I might just like @Kaerd's idea better overall. Although most of my complaints stem from the fact that I actually liked the rework Saryn until these spore changes were made.

Edited May 26, 2018 by myuushii

[AdunSaveMe]

1 hour ago, Hamsterius said:

Considering Onslaught, who knows? Maybe that was their goal all along.
Not a hard nerf that'll make people scream Viver, something small and grating to make players gradually drop and forget her.

This isn't small though. This is a huge impact on the enjoyability of her kit. It's like this change was made just by focusing on numbers, without paying attention to what's actually fun, because this isn't fun at all. I would have preferred a damage nerf or something.

[(PSN)WeeMalk5]

What was fun was taking Saryn to Crossfire on Lua, a fav spot just for giggles at the confetti. 

Not feeling it now.

I wonder why it wasnt kept a saryn 2 but only not allow cast on molt.

[Edzhang]

After doinng the recent sortie with saryn, i can say that she’s in a better spot than she is a week ago (her last rework).. being able to recast spore is great, i dont really mind with no spreading from spore kill, cause my playstyle with saryn is finding enemies with spore and kill them.. the damage ramp up is considerable, but i think it is better to make it 1 damage per sec (affected by power strength) and remove the enemy cap.. and the damage decay is pretty annoying, even with over hundred duration it’s still really fast.. i understand the intention so we cant get like 50k damage easily, but please tune down the decay a little bit..

[Hamsterius]

37 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

This isn't small though. This is a huge impact on the enjoyability of her kit. It's like this change was made just by focusing on numbers, without paying attention to what's actually fun, because this isn't fun at all. I would have preferred a damage nerf or something.

I meant small as in tricks players into thinking "We can salvage this" for long enough to prevent a Viver-style outrage.

I wouldn't have prefered a damage nerf, I would have prefered that they just figure out the obvious that an ability that is supposed to be used to kill shouldn't make you scared that you're killing too much nor should it just be rendered incapable of killing. When spores become strong enough that enemies can't last more than a second, I should be opening a champagne, not shedding tears.

Seriously, unless all you ever fight are grineer, that's literally all they're supposed to do now. Make things die. I should be HAPPY when things die to them, but instead I'm just worried that I'll have to regrow the damage back to passable levels again.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Edzhang said:

i understand the intention so we cant get like 50k damage easily, but please tune down the decay a little bit..

New spores is a raw damage ability. Getting high damage numbers with it is pretty much it's entire purpose in life now. Low ticks that make you think "Why bother wasting the energy, I'll just shoot that corpus crewman manually" are not what you want.

Notice that I said CORPUS CREWMAN. Because when 2.5 out of 4 factions in the game don't even have armor, I don't think corrosive procs should even be part of this conversation.

[Ketec]

Played a bit and it seems like low power and max duration is the only way to make her viable now.

• Increase spread range.
• Reduce cast range (it's silly high compared to spread range).
• Reduce base damage to 1 - make it a debuff ability not dps (better to use at low levels and has utility at high levels)
• Make status chance scale with enemies instead of damage (more utility)

 

1. Add different modes for the spore - like vauban 1 or ivara. 

• Viral, corrosive, toxin spore - with difference in status, damage or spread range

Molt seems to lack aggro - enemies often still target defense objects or me instead.

 

[WFCD]

Removing the spore spread on death was a bad idea. It made Saryn turn into a "chase the rabbit" type frame where you're constantly going after enemies to try and spread the spores already on them before eventually not being able to do that anymore due to the damage ticks being too high.

What was the reason of removing the spore spread on death? It did very little to fix (in the sense of improvement, not nerfing) anything and just turned her play style on its head completely. Would much rather prefer that to be put back in at the cost of some energy or tick damage or something.

Edited May 26, 2018 by WFCD

[SandScorpion]

On 2018-05-24 at 4:26 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

• Removed spread on enemies that die to a Spore’s tick damage. 

RIP Saryn

I'll try it, but I am not looking forward to it.

[Traumtulpe]

Feedback:

Spores feel balanced now. Needs a little bit of streamlining though:

Multiple Saryns in a team feel terrible - they block each others Spores.

Spores scale for max 20 damage with 10 enemies but only for 2 damage with one - make it 20 regardless, it's already slow enough.

Reducing Spores damage by recasting feels good, desperately searching for enemies while your Spores damage decays to near nothing is awful - increase reduction from recasting and remove decay entirely.

Additional Ideas:

Allow Spores to be toggled between viral and corrosive, Miasma would always be the opposite. I think this would make a lot of people happy.

Improve Miasma: Instead of dealing significantly increased damage on Spore victims, make it increase Spores damage counter. Miasma could also refund some energy for every enemy afflicted by Spores.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Traumtulpe

[Echo373]

Having had a few runs, I'd say new Spores are really not bad at all. My only complaint is the difference in Ramp-up speed limit compared to decay - hitting a few seconds of Decay (which is often inevitable since spores don't spread on death) can ruin minutes of buildup. Stopping on-death spore spreading makes sense from the design PoV - as stated, it stops any kind of AFK gameplay - but in turn has made a rather unfun 'chase' playstyle. Where no matter what I'd rather be doing, I need to be chasing / toxic lashing / recasting spores to keep them up. Hell, I've had my spore counter pretty much wipe in the time it took me to revive two teammates, stripping me of like five minutes of buildup.  

Problem: Spores decay too quickly for the capped ramp up speed, requiring constant maintenance to avoid Decay, creating gameplay loops that punish the player for objective / team revive / etc play.  

Solution: Faster Ramp-Up, slower Decay, other options:

Workable Suggestions:

1) Increase the Ramp-Up cap from 10 to 20 enemies. Will allow folks to recover from wipe-out faster.  

2) Decrease Decay rate / add a 'Grace' period to allow folks to re-spread following spore failure.

3) Reintroduce self-propagating spores with heavy limitations - e.g. can spread on death but only at 1/4 or less Range. Would allow small colonies of spores to persist for a limited time without allowing for instant whole-map nuking.

4) (Augment, maybe?) Combination of above - spore structure. If the last enemy infected by spores would die by spore tick (causing decay), instead spawn a non-clipping structure / flower / etc for Time (e.g. 2/4/6/10s). Structure is marked for the Saryn by a waypoint similar to Ayatan Stars, and is not marked for teammates. For this time, spores will only decay at 0.5x Decay Rate, and shooting (or recasting spores on?) the structure will burst it and spread spores at (e.g. 25/50/75/100%) of Range. This combines the idea of a grace period / slower decay to allow players to do Team stuff, whilst also providing an Active way for players (or teammates) to resume spores following a wipe-out. 

 

Damage-wise, they're fine. Damage is far from spectacular, no longer able to get anywhere near the 14k DpSpS we saw before Spores Revisit, but it can handle itself into ESO if pressed. The anti-synergy between having two Saryns' Spores on a single target is annoying, but not unworkable. energy costs are fine, consistency of range between toxic lash / normal kills / team kills / etc is great.  

One concern - which I've not been able to reliably replicate yet - is sometimes recasting Spores will immediately end all spores and zero the counter. It seems to be if cast on an enemy who dies before the spore effect has grown, but I'm not 100% sure on that. 

[-BKB-SamuarJoe]

@[DE]Danielle

please remove "Removed spread on enemies that die to a Spore’s tick damage."

[-BKB-SamuarJoe]

@[DE]Danielle

revert spore before this reword, viral and toxin propagation is way better than this  scaling corrosive, non propagate spore...

please for the god sake

[Arachnaas]

I don't like the new changes. Spores spreading on death was thematic, and was fun. 

I also liked that it kind of self regulated by virtue of burning through enemies until there weren't any, and then you had to start again. It was like a game of contagion where you set the incubation too low. You got some crazy numbers, but only for a short time. 

[LSG501]

After spending a bit more time playing saryn after the rework...

Spores:

Spores not spreading on death via spore damage is a big issue on low level content

Countdown timer is far too fast when you lose your spores, I couldn't even go between defence waves on hydron without losing my spore counter.   Would prefer a short duration BEFORE the tick started not an instant drop of 20%.

Other frame abilities can remove/cancel out our spores which might also relate to below. 

Random cancelling out of spores for no obvious reason (seems to be being looked into)

When trying to spread spores the damage tick from a spore might kill the enemy before our weapon does the final blow, cancelling out any spores being spread.

Saryn spores do not play well with another saryn spore in the team.

Had a random (only seen it once) where I got a red 'cooldown' timer was applied to spores for no obvious reason, I was on hydron so no onslaught restrictions to consider.

Really feel we should be able to get more than 10 enemies for damage growth, feels artificially restrictive although you'd need to fix the spread on spore death issue too to fix this.

Feels like I'm spending more time ensuring my spores are up than playing the game... that's not how I want to play saryn and could easily be fixed by returning the spread of spores when spores kill them.

Casting onto an enemy that dies (by another player for example) before the cast is complete is annoying, also seems to take energy.... could we get the ash treatment here where if it's killed before we get to it we get our energy back. 

Also wish that spores could carry viral/gas/toxin procs (even if just for limited range/enemies) with them from weapons, we've got some weapons that are perfectly suited to synergising with saryn that are now going to waste. 

 

Molt:

It really doesn't attract enemy fire enough, this needs to be stronger.

Still feel the speed buff from molt is rather pointless, I'd rather that be for the entire duration of molt or just a base stat increase to sprint speed.  I can see where the idea came from (run away from danger) but it's not really useful at such a short duration.

Kind of wish the 'healing' augment was part of the standard kit now too. 

 

Toxic Lash:

Toxic lash itself seems fine but the augment is pretty much useless, can't see a reason to use it in all honesty.  If I want a 'gas cloud' at the last enemy location I have weapons that will do that automatically.

 

Miasma:

Kind of feel miasma should get a bit of a buff or some sort of scaling for higher level content if it's not going to synergise with spores.  Won't judge this too heavily as Pablo has said he's open to looking at this after he's sorted out spores so will wait to see what happens with this... hopefully Pablo will be a bit quicker (seems to be so far) at tweaking saryn than the people who did ember and banshee reworks... 

Edited May 26, 2018 by LSG501

[megamino]

i think what everybody felt about "removing spore spread on death with spore tick" is shocking and disappointed.

From my perspective, this is kind a "little" nerf for me, again i like her recent rework with spore as damage scaling ability, which can be pretty badass when got the 5k damage per tick. Now, they remove that spore spread on death mainly because that's what make saryn too OP, in their perspective. I know that they should be test another mission rather than onslaught. If they blame that rework because of onslaught alone, then i can say that they are make fun of giving content to players (for me at least). They are basically dislike the way we play their own content.

I agree that Saryn is too OP, but in endless mission. This rework should not be done at all. When they are releasing onslaught, they also know that some frame (especially equinox) is OP and meta on that kind of game. To make all frames to be balanced are so hard, and the one that get hurt is not DE but us players. (this again, if DE consider Saryn too OP on onslaught alone, i just cannot understand how saryn can be nerfed because on single mission alone).

But, i still love warframe, this game is phenomenal and having such hard working and communicative developer is nice. For me at least, i don't want to complain much about the spread rework (especially with you guys are giving them feedback in many different ways) basically what i want is either

1. Giving back the damage spread after death of spore ticks

or

2. Giving back the energy restoration on spore hit in each enemy by 2 (like before rework)

Giving back the recast is what make saryn power hungry, before the patch happened, i have said that and since you guys decided not to give the energy regen, it's just hard to dash in zenurik just to regenerate energy to keep spore active

 

EDIT:

Also not being a jerk or ungrateful, but at this point, when you change spores into infinite scaling, you just make another problem and it backfired what you want with saryn.

Edited May 26, 2018 by megamino

[Genitive]

Some of my thoughts.

Right now the biggest issue is the necessity of running after spores to keep them going. I like that Saryn is more engaging now, but I don't think chasing spores should be her theme at all. It would be better if the damage os spores was toned down and if they could spread on death. Sometimes enemies die too quickly and you need to recast immediately and lose energy, which would not be a problem if spores still could spread on their own, even at a small range, to take some pressure from the player.

Maybe bring back the ability to detonate spores so detonating them would spread them further?

I also think that decay is too quick, there is not much difference compared to the previous spore version. 

And I don't like that she is so energy hungry. Now that spores are recastable maybe that energy regeneration that used to be there could come back.

 

@[DE]Pablo A question. If the intent was to make spores scale, wouldn't it be possible to make them scale with enemy health, similar to Oberon's smite? If spores were to damage each enemy separately rather than from a single "damage pool" there wouldn't be a need for restrictions such as not spreading or death or damage decay. And they would scale more reasonably across all levels. 

[Huyhn]

Now that spores do not spread upon death, Saryn is even more energy hungry than before as recasting spore at high damage tend to near insta-kill the target before you've had the chance to pop or even kill the target to spread spore again or wait till spore decays down to acceptable damage that the infected doesn't die immediately. You're sort of locked out of your ability as too high of a damage you'll need to constantly recast on a single target. I'm hoping for a mechanic to say spread spore at diminishing range or damage value every time say halved each target killed by spore, though this would need to be further playtested and I would like to see melee toxic lash energy regen make a return since it would promote a more active saryn playstyle.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Huyhn

[Brynslustafir]

This rework is even more Polarizing than Mags revisit( GET IT?! MAGNET JOKES!). I love it, but I also hate it. 

Good:

1:Endgame viability(As long as the only endgame you care about is Elite Sanctuary) without doing all the work and boring your squadmates to death. At least it's not a resonating quake Banshee.

2:Toxic Lash affects all weapons. This is a QoL change I've wanted for literally years. So hows about making regenerative molt an innate part of Saryn instead of an augment? Pretty please?

3:Gotta play actively. Can't just re-up your timed abilities with a cheesy macro like Harrow and Octavia.

4:Molt=Volt. Gotta Go Fast! Combine the healing of Regenerative Molt with the burst of speed and it's now easier than ever to get out of trouble with Saryn. 

 

Bad:

1: Only one effective playstyle. Too much shoehorned "Synergy" that, instead of opening up neat opportunities for abilities to complement each other, simply forces you to put down spores CONSTANTLY.

2: Decaying damage when all spored enemies die means that Saryn is now useless anywhere except Onslaught. You need small areas with incredible enemy density to make her viable, and that's just not how most recently added areas are designed. We have our second open world on the way, and for some baffling reason saryn has been rebuilt specifically to suit the old map designs, and only one or 2 gamemodes on top of that. 

3: Have to selectively kill specific enemies out of a crowd in order to spread spores as effectively and efficiently as possible. That's hard to do when you're dealing with Musou-Level AOE death machines.

4: When you have to cast an ability every 3 seconds, you really get to feel how slow it is. Maybe speed up the spore cast? 

5: More RE:'s on this rework than a corporate Email chain. Saryn ReReReRe-visited Spore ReReReReReRework 

Edited May 26, 2018 by Plasmaface
More RE's

[Kylo.]

The Spores Decay should be halved, it's super annoying to lose more than half my damage because the enemies are slow.