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[DE]Rebecca

Nyx & Titania Dev Workshop

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55 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Thorns - increase to 50% of damage reflected back to the attacker!

My feedback:

Titania is a frame that is not tanky and does not hold up well to being shot in the face. I have two suggestions; make Tribute a rotational self-target AOE buff (like Ivara's bow) that you can fire and forget, and have fun in fairy form without wasting energy that you need to stay in flight. The second suggestion; make the damage reflect not a percentage of damage done, but a percentage of the enemies health, this way it will scale with enemy hp and not enemy weapon damage which has terrible scaling compared to enemy HP.  

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Thoughts:

Nyx - Oh man all of that sounds good. She's basically got Ash's 1 augment built in and she has Nova's 2 but it's an actual ally now? That's absolutely fantastic.

Titania - A little on the eh side for me. I appreciate the changes to Lantern and Razorwing, but honestly some extra features could be added to Tribute's Dust and Thorn buffs in particular would be nice. As it is, I've never really seen them work all that well in the first place. Dust especially, being that there's so much other than guns that can do damage. I hope there'll be more done with regards to her?

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Fullmoon - the 75% damage buff now applies to ALL (Sentinels, Moas, Companions)  + Razorwing Butterflies!

But... you lose your companion during Razorwing. That's why you've had to give Razorwing its own special vacuum. Can't you just let us keep our companions out?

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Just now, TBB. said:

No, just because the bullets used to "buff" your minion could have spent to kill off another enemy in the meantime.

Do you even--

If you have time to buff your minion, then you can do so, and then when you encounter more enemies, you and your minion could be getting kills, which would increase the amount of kills you could get.

What do people not understand about this?

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These changes look OK on paper, but leave quite a bit to be desired. AI-based abilities in Warframe are always iffy to use, and Nyx's 1 receiving better pathing as well as the damage increase seems promising, but we'll see how good it is in practice. An armor debuff is welcome, but the Infestation thing seems very niche and situational, not sure I like it. Nyx's 3 paired with her new passive seems to be okay, but it looks to me like a much watered down Nekros Terrify for CC purposes, and enemies *still* can shoot you and harm you regardless, it's just slightly more insurance. Additionally, I was under the impression that the math of Absorb would be changed? All that was added is dynamic damage output similar to Zephyr's 4, which is a step in the right direction, but even so her 4 was never a good ability to use unless you use the augment and use it to revive allies to gain temporary godmode. Releasing her 4 would just knock down enemies as opposed to killing them still, and you can still get easily killed in that downtime regardless, so it seems counter intuitive to me.

Meanwhile for Titania, she needs a better AoE range on her Spellbind, better buffs overall for her 2 that don't make her so situational, and better survivability on her 4. Also, maybe make it so that we can shoot the lantern and then explode it, similar to how we can shoot Nyx's mind control target? That'd make for a very great offensive use of her Lantern. 

These changes are a step in the right direction, but still leave quite a bit to be desired, and I'm not so sure that these two lovely frames will budge much, if at all, from their current spot.

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41 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

New Passive: Enemies can't seem to truly target Nyx and all receive an accuracy debuff against her.

Nyx is receiving a new passive overall, the random disarm was on-theme, but feedback over time has always slanted toward 'new passive, please!'.

Can we not? The current passive is already good, chance not to get hit is not as good as a chance to never get hit.

No, I don't want my enemies to kill eachother in chaos with their guns, because we already know thats imposible even with the pshy bolts debuffing them.

The Mind Control buff is nice.

Pshy Bolts buff is nice, but duration should be at least 15s, and the debuff should be affected by power strength, because 20% leftover enemy armor is still quite a bit of armor from what I experienced using Unairu.

The Absorb Buff is not that big of a difference, if not, depending on the enemy it can be a nerf due to damage values varrying from the type of damage dealt.

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

As for the 4 Tribute types:
Dust - keep as-is:it reduces enemy accuracy by 50%!

Thorns - increase to 50% of damage reflected back to the attacker!

Entangle - keep as-is: one Entangle tribute slows an enemy by 25%!

Fullmoon - the 75% damage buff now applies to ALL (Sentinels, Moas, Companions)  + Razorwing Butterflies!

Dust and Entangle are good, but thorns and Fullmoon are still pretty bad. Mostly Thorns, you know, because damage redirection is completely garbage, and titania can't benefit from it (if there even was something to benefit from it) because she has the equivalent of 2hp.

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Lantern:

BEFORE:
Lantern was a single-target ability that could result in wildly bouncing enemies making it hard to achieve the core function of attracting witless enemies.  

AFTER:
Lantern can now be cast on up to 4 targets with better 'tethered' victims. You will be able to 'explode' all targets by holding the Lantern cast

Can I just assume you nerfed the range because of the 4 target limit? Please just leave it at 1 with the full range and the tether if thats the case.

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Razorwing:

BEFORE:
A lot of bonking to pick up loot.

AFTER:
Razorwing will simply receive a Vacuum to make acquiring loot, energy, etc easier. Remember - less of a hassle

A welcome change, but now the question is how big is the range.

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57 minutes ago, Lcnt said:

Good thing it's an aura that applies to the whole group. If you go that way, why have reflect when you also drop the accuracy of enemies? If they don't hit, there's nothing to reflect.

I don't think it being an aura makes much of a difference. If you, your friends and all your companions are reflecting damage and necessarily being hurt at the same time, eight instances of negligible damage is not much better than a single one.

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The thing that worries me about Titania and why I don't use her. Zaws broke her when I was leveling her for the mastery. Use a zaw, enter razorwing, leaving razorwing and I had to die to be able to do any type of damage again. Any idea if that's fixed? I always use my Mewan zaw. 

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3 minutes ago, DustyFlash said:

Can I just assume you nerfed the range because of the 4 target limit? Please just leave it at 1 with the full range and the tether if thats the case.

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Why would you assume it if they didn't say it...? It would be a pretty significant change to mention so of course range isn't changed.

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everyone's already speculating that these are terrible reworks, as usual -- so rework should be

Nyx :

1st skill - 1000000 damage
2nd skill - 2000000 damage entire map
3rd skill - 2 mins invi
4th skill become invulnerable 

Titania :

1st skill - 1000000 damage
2nd skill - 2000000 damage entire map
3rd skill - 2 mins invi
4th skill become invulnerable  and small

why not wait for it to be out first?

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I really hope that Nyx will be as good as people seem to think here, but I fear that the main problem will not be adressed. Anyways, here's my take on Nyx (it's pretty old, but the main part is still relevant): 

 

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Eh, nevermind. Here's to hoping for more changes to Titania. Just a quick reminder she is extremely squishy and her defenses currently rely on RNG while being a very energy hungry frame. Unlike a frame like Limbo who is also very squishy, but has complete control over his damage taken while also being a low-cost energy frame. Please tune her around enemies higher than level 30 or 40 since she currently isn't. 

Edited by SkyCakeLight
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1 minute ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

Why would you assume it if they didn't say it...? It would be a pretty significant change to mention so of course range isn't changed.

They had done it before. With some other frames such as Hydroid.

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37 minutes ago, koryfunny said:

imo, it should be 50% damage reflect accompanied by 50% damage reduction; Titana takes only 50% of the damage (before mitigation by armor/adaptation etc') and 50% damage returns to the attacker

Spitballing here: Power Range maybe? They'd need to let the auras be augmented by power range at least but the idea would be that those auras have a higher range of influence so that Titania's dust and entangle auras affect more targets, making Titania and her party safer. It also boosts the range of Spellbind and Lantern. Titania doesn't have too much incentive to build range. This is quite a radical suggestion though, I suppose.

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Razorwing should regenerate butterfly every X kill or a fixed time. Butterfly die as....well butterfly on mission. And some Damage Reduction.

I took my titania to a bounty on orbvallis, and when I had to do part of the excavations, I preferred to leave the mission.
Collect objects, interact with objects, relive companions? it does not enter between the concepts of being titania.

I think it's a good time to see the blessed photo from a distant margin and not be simply giving letters and numbers without evaluating them in their entirety.

The warframe titania is incompatible with many models of the game in its current way of being. And changing a few prefixes and numbers within the code does not make it any better.

yes and we know titania can do a lot of damage, but a dead titania is 0 damage.

Edited by xcenic
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Titania problems: extremely energy hungry, so much so that you either use her abilities or razorwing (except that razorwing is the only reason to use her). 

Titania changes: more incentive to use her abilities.

I dunno, could you just add in an energy restore feature to her lantern? Make it like Garuda's Blood Altar, but as an energy restore that works while in razorwing? It'd make titania actually able to use all her abilities, and maybe even razorwing blitz. Hell, she'd actually be a half decent support frame at that point. Maybe people other than diehard titania fans and people running plaguestar would use her then. 

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1 minute ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

So... you wouldn't want to turn an enemy into an ally that can deal potentially massive damage to other enemies while you're doing stuff?

They'd also probably change the augment.

It's not something I can rely on. Instead of spending 4 seconds shooting the enemy that I've already taken out of the fight, I can use those 4 seconds to clear the room. After those 4 seconds, it's not like I can play differently because my super useful mind controlled pal has my back, I'm just going to continue shooting whatever moves before it has a chance to shoot me.

I'm happy to have another target for enemies to focus on, but that's really as far as it goes...if the duration was greatly increased, or there was some other way to keep a particularly useful enemy controlled I might feel differently.

If there are plans for the augment, this would be the place and time to mention them...

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I guess we'll have to wait until Part II to get a better understanding of the scope of these changes, but it doesn't really feel like these frames are being revisited/reworked in mind of how the game has shifted in the past few years. The Part I changes seem like they're just reinforcing the old and outdated aspects of their abilities.

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For Tribute I think you need to make it one buff that increases in effectiveness (across the board, not as in specific parts of the ability. So that casting on a lancer would make it 50% as effective, but would only cost half as much too or something) based on the type of enemy. I think Thorns and Entangle should apply to just allies, and Dust should just apply to enemies firing at Titania (because it would handicap Thorns and Entangle). Full Moon is fine, keep it applying to everyone. Keeping in mind these are all apart of one buff.

Another issue is her mana consumption. It is very un-fun, imo of course (but I have heard others having a similar issue), When I want to be in Razorwing for the survivability, but I am forced to come out and get energy because it is a channeled ability and I have to use abilities (if I am using Razorwing Blitz). I think you guys should consider options that make staying in razorwing not cost energy in some way. I do not know why you all want to limit the effectiveness of certain frames like Valkyr and Titania by putting constraints on how much you can use them to their fullest potential. Sayrn and Gardua feel really good because it feels like I am using them to their fullest potential whenever I use them, but for Valk and Titania it feels like it is really hard or impossible to fully utilize them (I am MR 25 with a couple thousand hours in the game) even though I really enjoy the idea of what their kits should be able to do. I really do not like how you guys depend on Energy and simple duration limits alone for balance in this area. Especially when I do not feel like it is needed with respect to certain things.

I also think you should just make Lantern tether the enemy to the floor. This would make the 1 more usefull because you could float an enemy (or group) then reposition them into a spot you want. You could then make them into a sort of infested lantern tree, the animation and model would be great and would fit the theme. Maybe even adding an augment for her 1 that makes (either all or a certain number) of enemies effected by her one turn into mini lanterns (or nests maybe) that spawn more razorflies and do not attract enemies, would be cool.

Edited by OhWanderer
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Nyx

Passive: So on top of modding her with some survivability, she gets an extra safety net. What about attacks that home in on the player (like bombard rockets)?

Mind Control: Now I'm excited to see a heavy gunner go to town on her own allies! :devil: It'll require something with high fire rate, though, to pump as much damage into the target during the 4 sec "wind up period."

Psychic Bolts: I welcome the debuffs on the enemy. 🙂 Especially on the Infested ancients.

Absorb: So it'll take the entire "damage shake" and it'll pump the exact same thing out. Okay, but in my experience, the damage that enemies deal, is not necessarily devastating to themselves, even if you soak up the input of an entire hoard and throw it back in their face. The changes to Mind Control are kinda trying to rectify this.

Ideas for Absorb:

  • Dynamic: add a "wind up period" to Absorb as well. The damage absorbed in the first couple seconds would count towards a multiplier, which then influences the damage amount when the ability is released.
  • Not-so-dynamic: add a flat damage multiplier to the Absorb ability, influenced by ability strength.

Titania

Lantern: I agree that "cast fest" was a problem for this ability, though I suspect that the changes will mitigate this only slight.

Idea for Lantern:

  • Allow some "autonomy" for the ability? If the ability was not manually detonated, and the "Lantern Enemy" is killed, the ability should jump to a new random enemy within range, converting it into a new Lantern for the remainder of the duration.

 

Regardless, I'm excited to test the changes detailed by the workshop and/or see them showcased in a stream. 😉 

Edited by Aldrr

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I still have some major concerns about Titania, though the Tribute and Razorwing changes are absolute highlights here and very welcome.

 

- Titania still has the lowest Base Stat pool of any Warframe in the game (Health, Shield, Armor, Sprint Speed, Energy are all "Average" values), matching Excalibur before his rework. Her base stats actually look like placeholder values.

- All four of her abilities still have massive cast times. 

- Spellbind still has really tiny range.

- Thorns will remain the weakest Tribute because the amount of damage we need to kill enemies is vastly different from the amount they need to do to kill us. An unmodded Titania with Thorns will deal 300 damage to enemies with Thorns before entering Bleedout state. That's not nearly enough to kill any meaningful threat. And this is true for Trinity's Link too. But Trinity's Link is good because it comes with 50% Damage reduction. Damage reflection in general in Warframe will always be bad unless you reduce the Health of every enemy in the game to be closer to the values that we the players have. Its a non-reflective damage scale right now. Thorns should have its effect replaced, or the damage system needs a rework to make Confusion and Damage reflection effects better as a whole.

- Lantern'd enemies still don't take damage until they explode/expire. I really think you should take Nyx's coding for Mind Control where the affected enemies "take damage" still while controlled and it instantly applies when the ability expires.

- You can Lantern 4 enemies in this rework, but without Mods, Titania can only afford to cast Lantern twice at full Energy. Three times with just Streamline. Titania needs either more Base Energy, or consider something like getting Energy over time when near a Lantern or regaining Energy when picking up Tribute buffs (Both of which could give her more roles in a team as like an aggressive alternative to Trinity). She has major Energy economy issues as of now.

 

Taking a moment to focus on positives though, you guys rocked it with Nyx. My concerns about the state of the damage scale apply a bit less to Nyx due to Psychic Bolt's plans, but please do double check performance on each faction at Level 60-100 of Chaos + Psychic Bolts to see how long it takes for enemies to effectively destroy each other. It sounds like a great direction though!

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I feel like titania should get a range buff to her buffs or maybe make them not center around herself? As it stands it just kinda conflicts with the nature of her four as you're going to be up in the air and keeping your distance from enemies. The only thing really worth talking about is the vacuum changes with her and possibly the lantern making it a useable cc. 

 

As for nyx these are some nice changes but I'm still unsure given how much her cc can slow things down in a variety of gamemodes where KPS is important. Defense alone is a massive pain with a nyx on board as every single enemy needs to be dead. And I've been seeing this gamemode break quite a bit lately for a multitude of reasons from one bug to another. Can we have it count how many enemies are left and allow the round to progress anyway with a timer? Like 80% of enemies have been slayn next wave in :5 seconds. Something where they keep flooding in with that one break round every so often (the fifth round for us.). It's a bit silly having a round being held up by a janky ass kuvat stuck underneath the stairs. Or just... breaking for no reason and nyx might just exacerbate that problem.  Right now her only utilities kinda lay within interception and excavation possibly. And even then it's not entirely ideal when you have to find the crewman with the battery. Although I suppose she's good in solo survival too. Maybe some of the new bounties in orb vallis too? 

Edited by KillaJoke1

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Well the changes sound nice, but I still got some concerns.  Mostly with Titania, she has always been slow, all of her casting is just 'Point' and as weird as it is to say it feels like all her ability's minus Razorwing could be rolled into one.  It just feels like 'the same' due to her casting of just stopping everything and pointing, some of her ability's should be instant cast or needs new animation.  Also like everyone else I take umbrage with her Dust and Thorns, it sounds good but the goal with Titania is evasion and her evasion buffs for herself and other player's, thorns while it sounds nice just seems redundant and unhelpful, maybe some new buffs for Titania?  Also maybe some Synergy between her ability's?

Like Using Tribute on a spellbound target double's it's power strength, or using Lantern on a spellbound target makes it instant and a free cast (Like Revinant), or Tributing a Lantern makes them explode for free in a nice AoE burst with a shorter spellbound afterward (Like one to two seconds) Or alternatively tributing spellbound or Lantern targets gives new and unique buffs for tributing them?  Just an idea

Also while I was typing ideas for Titania I was thinking on how to do more for her Razorwing, The best I could come up with is a system where she gains a speed boost for Gun Kills, An evasion boost for melee kills and for razorwing butterfly's she gains an overall damage boost, where they all stack and it keeps the player switching to keep up her boost while in Razorwing, and it kinda fit's in line with her tribute ability.

Also one more thing For Titania, could we see her Razorwing Butterfly's around the Lantern target, and maybe alter her passive so when she cast an ability she gets a Razorwing butterfly for a few seconds (Max 3) while outside of Razorwing, to fly and attack around her, just a few seconds, the Butterfly's are nice but they feel as a 4th exclusive ability, I would like to see them more, and see them woven into her kit.  Also since they are 'delicate' I was thinking maybe turn them into mini-bombs upon death where they deal blast and slash damage when they die to the enemy, just a little bit of damage with guaranteed proc?  To further protect Titania.  Also I am fine with her not regenerating Razorfly's while in Razorwing, I know and understand when you loose them you need to recast to keep people from staying in her 4 if possible.

Also Titania could really use an energy buff, she is very much a caster frame and feels hampered by her energy pool.

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Reading feedback about ths titania changes, I think you guys have only made a step in the right direction so far. Vacuum on razorwing and tethered lanterns are big changes that we've needed for a long time, but that's not enough to save Titania.

 

Tribute just straight up needs some sort of rework. Titania is a squishy frame, having her dive into a group of enemies to pick up the soul is bad, just give her the buff once cast.

Also, again, damage reflection is bad. Titania is squishy and cant make use out of it. Even if she was tanky enough to withstand a lot of damage, the reflection will only poke at the enemies, not even tickle them.  

Titania still needs cast times and energy looked at too. Titania with natural talent is how she should feel at base. Maybe make spellbind and tribute one handed actions? She just spends too much time standing still. Remember, this is a paper thin warframe

 

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7 minutes ago, TGDM said:

I guess we'll have to wait until Part II to get a better understanding of the scope of these changes, but it doesn't really feel like these frames are being revisited/reworked in mind of how the game has shifted in the past few years. The Part I changes seem like they're just reinforcing the old and outdated aspects of their abilities.

You misunderstood the whole part I thing. The part I does not refer to the changes to Nyx and Titania, but to Fortuna. It is Fortuna which is receiving more updates, with the fights with those 4 Giant Spiders scattered around the map, hence the part II.

Edited by Anthraxicus

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