A reason to hate nullifiers

[(PSN)robotwars7]

reasons to hate nullifiers:

- they exist.

- the new Vapos ones dual wield Provas: only the glorious John Prodman has that right!, seriously, who do they think they are?

- they punish players using slower weapons. god forbid anyone use a Sniper against the Corpus, right?

- they protect other enemies.

- they always leave the toilet seat up

- they never split the check in restaurants, or tip the Waiting staff.

- the Arctic Eximus ones still have their snow bubble underneath the nully bubble and their regular proto-shield. like bruh, you don't need that many layers, you're not an Onion.

- some of them are flying drones now.. ugh.

- they disable Warframe powers at the worst possible times.

- they steal people's Wi-Fi.

- they use up valuable oxygen.

- they disrespect the lore

- they make all the other corpus units do all the work.

- they don't like puppies and kick Domestik drones for fun.

- it smells inside their bubbles.

- they probably listen to trap music.

 

 

[Rhalick0]

wow people who never went past lvl 50 nullifiers commenting about it needs to be harder..schools dont teach kids anything these days.

[844448]

1 hour ago, hackedraptor said:

wow people who never went past lvl 50 nullifiers commenting about it needs to be harder..schools dont teach kids anything these days.

They're very easy actually, even at arbitration, sortie or ESO level

[trst]

I just don't see the issue.

I understand that the task of assessing whether or not it's better to shoot the bubble at range or taking the risk of killing a Nullifier in it's bubble in the middle of a mission is an incredibly difficult feat to pull off but it is quite manageable I assure you.

 

But really though; would you take an unmodded Braton into a high-level mission with the intent of killing enemies with it? Of course not. And even if you did you shoulden't be expecting an easy time in the process.

Yet going into any of the missions/areas that have Nullifiers as a frame that can't afford to be nullified while not taking a single weapon that's good at taking out their bubbles safely is acceptable?

 

Also it doesn't make someone a shill if they don't agree with your opinions. Humans tend to have differing opinions, you should get used to that.

Personally I believe the game is too pathetically easy being nothing but gear checks. Nullifiers are still too easy to manage but still offer some difficulty where there would otherwise be none at all.

[Loza03]

Nullifiers themselves aren't the problem it's the fact they're used as a substitute for redesigning enemies for the new ability paradigm - and subsequently spammed or have  their counterplay removed. See also: Fortuna shield drones at max alert, which unlike regular Nullifiers, give nullifier properties to fast moving, durable and powerful enemies and always have at least two, as well as making the nullification source hard to track. A regular Nullifier is easy to deal with because they're squishy, slow and you know exactly where they are provided you can see the bubble. 

On that whole 'new ability paradigm' thing, Abilities seem to have originally been designed as effectively the 'BFG' elements of Warframe - universally effective, extremely powerful but limited in use by energy supply. This didn't wind up being popular so they've gradually shifted over to a setup more caster-friendly, where energy is abundant after a certain amount of progression. Redesigning enemy/ability interaction so that certain abilities and certain frames have enemies that are a threat to them. Although not all enemies, and not universally shared between frames - different frames should have different 'counter enemies', to make it so different frames have different situations where they're on the back foot. Similar to weapons - Shotguns aren't as effective in large areas vs tight corridors for example.

That way, Nullifiers could be drawn back to being what they were supposed to be - an 'Oh S***' enemy that shows up and can seriously threaten a defensive setup if left unattended, but are easily identified and dealt with. And, well, rarer. 

[BETAOPTICS]

10 hours ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Play with dragon Keys equipped then, if you still think is too hard don't mod your frame, there you go.

Just went to a mission with all of them on. Figured it would be nice and challenging. I was disappointed. It was notably harder, but it was doable. When you get to a certain point where you have all the powerful mods maxed out and all the gear available at your choosing, even if you do not min max or pick up the best gear most of the content is perfectly doable even with all the keys equipped. Balance is a tough scale but the game needs more of it. Back in ye'old days of the open-beta release stated of the game was actually pretty difficult because enemies hit harder (they weren't as numerous) and you had smaller effective HP pool due to having non-maxed out mods. Like DE said they want to bring more challenge to the game, at one point it meant elite alerts meant to challenge long term players but obviously that was scrapped when they started designing NW and remaking that whole system.

Anyway back to the original topic I think DE has stated that nullifiers are supposed to scale their bubbles in a way where the drone does not go over the ceiling. There are however cases that it does clip trough even if this feature was already implemented. And I am not sure it has yet been, I can not recall. Bubbles do have a fixed size though, maybe I misunderstood what was written there but their size scales only to a fixed point of max range. In my personal view nullifiers are a good enemy type because they provide interaction and engagement rather than plowing trough hordes like players usually do. I used to dislike them way back in the day when they were initially introduced because the bubbles did not have a drone to shoot and they did not care about the weapon type they were being shot at so sniper rifles especially struggled to shoot them down. These days they are fairly easy to deal with, if you can not shoot the bubbles, go and melee them.

[BETAOPTICS]

8 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Nullifiers themselves aren't the problem it's the fact they're used as a substitute for redesigning enemies for the new ability paradigm - and subsequently spammed or have  their counterplay removed. See also: Fortuna shield drones at max alert, which unlike regular Nullifiers, give nullifier properties to fast moving, durable and powerful enemies and always have at least two, as well as making the nullification source hard to track. A regular Nullifier is easy to deal with because they're squishy, slow and you know exactly where they are provided you can see the bubble. 

On that whole 'new ability paradigm' thing, Abilities seem to have originally been designed as effectively the 'BFG' elements of Warframe - universally effective, extremely powerful but limited in use by energy supply. This didn't wind up being popular so they've gradually shifted over to a setup more caster-friendly, where energy is abundant after a certain amount of progression. Redesigning enemy/ability interaction so that certain abilities and certain frames have enemies that are a threat to them. Although not all enemies, and not universally shared between frames - different frames should have different 'counter enemies', to make it so different frames have different situations where they're on the back foot. Similar to weapons - Shotguns aren't as effective in large areas vs tight corridors for example.

That way, Nullifiers could be drawn back to being what they were supposed to be - an 'Oh S***' enemy that shows up and can seriously threaten a defensive setup if left unattended, but are easily identified and dealt with. And, well, rarer. 

A good comment. Though just to point out talking from experience and seeing the reception over the years, I am not sure if I would call the older style unpopular. Rather the newer style was simply more popular because how flashy it was. This is something a lot of games share. People want to shine, well most people do, there are some who are more humble in their achievements (looking at you support players).

[Evanescent]

@VanFanel1980mx

Interesting. Allow me to contribute something (hopefully) constructive.

I both like and hate nullifiers at the same time: like because of the concept they represent and hate because of the execution.

I hate them because of how they just turn you off. Nothing interesting, nothing engaging, they just exist and if you exist in the same space your powers get turned off.

To add to this, they affect some warframes more than others. For Warframes like mesa or excalibur, they are a nuisance in most cases because they have no problem surviving without their powers, and thus have the luxury of taking them out normally. Warframes like limbo on the other hand are completely shut down-there is nothing you can do as Limbo to fight a nullifier, only stop doing what makes you unique and hose the bubble down or shoot out the drone, which can quickly get you killed.

Some attempts to remedy this have been made, such as Nidus seeing his stacks decay inside the bubble and Wukong's clone losing health, or Atlas losing rubble like Nidus over time. But still for most of the older warframes the interaction is one note-it touches you and your powers go bye bye. That's not fun, because it's not engaging or interesting.

Ideally nullifiers would oppose powers but not turn them off entirely, and weaken your powers instead of turning them off. It makes sense they would be untargetable by peacemaker, or be able to be directly harmed by Exalted blade.

But imagine if instead of losing your power completely, you just got them heavily debuffed if you stepped in the bubble: Your iron skin got reduced to a fourth of its value, your exalted blade no longer made waves and did less damage, your radial blind only stunned them, your stasis only slowed enemies instead of stopping them, etc. Then, you would have interesting options: make a rush for the nullifier risking the odds, or back out and come back with a different strategy. You would be punished for making the wrong choice depending on the situation, but you would not be made completely useless or lose a built up buff because a nullifier ran at you in the middle of a melee swing you could not cancel. It would certainly feel less frustrating. 

On the other hand, I understand why nullifiers exist. They are the only thing that can really make you reassess your approach in this game, which is what the defense for their existence sums up to. The only thing that can threaten you in this game is something that does a lot of damage, doesn't die in one hit and can turn off your powers.

But they can and should be done better. 

Amalgalms are kind of what i hoped they would be, design and gameplay wise. I find them a lot more fun than nullifiers because in later levels they can pose a serious threats, look interesting with good lore and do interesting stuff. Amalgalms let you approach them with multiple strategies and can be defeated with all toolkits in the game. While not ideal, they are the closest I have seen.

Just because something has to be challenging doesn't mean it shouldn't be fun. It's a tough concept to nail requiring both patience from the players and the willingness to iterate and innovate from the developers. 

From what I've seen over my five years and counting in warframe, I have to reason the community and developers can deliver on both.

PS:

Try not to be confrontational with your posts if you are trying to cultivate discussion. I am not sure if you want validation from people bashing on nullifiers or constructive discussion on the issue, which shows that your intent has become unfortunately muddled. I responded hoping for the latter.

It's okay to not like something, but liking it does not make you a shill just as not liking it doesn't make you a jerk! 

Take it easy. My inbox is open if you want to have a discussion.

-Evan

 

 

[DatDarkOne]

46 minutes ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

Is trap music really that bad? I think migos and future are ok..

Migos and Future aren't Trap music, but T.I. is.  😀 

[VanFanel1980mx]

10 hours ago, (NSW)Sk0rp1on said:

Why would an enemy run to the side of a nullifier? (Just curious)

Because the nully is putting up a shield which also gives inmmunity to warframe abilities and it ignores damage so it has to be popped with X number of hits.

[(NSW)Sk0rp1on]

39 minutes ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

Because the nully is putting up a shield which also gives inmmunity to warframe abilities and it ignores damage so it has to be popped with X number of hits.

So the enemies are drawing fire away from the nullifier? Is that the tactic?

Or does nullifier mean the dude and not the bubble? 

Edited June 22, 2019 by (NSW)Sk0rp1on
More thots

[VanFanel1980mx]

49 minutes ago, (NSW)Sk0rp1on said:

So the enemies are drawing fire away from the nullifier? Is that the tactic?

Or does nullifier mean the dude and not the bubble? 

Both in general, let's say if the bubble is big the enemies will enter while advancing, if the bubble is small they get up front but still close to the bubble for example.

[DatDarkOne]

Here's my answer to all Nullifier issues.  

Hehe, look at that.  No bubbles.  Mwuhahahahahaha

[SneakyErvin]

Never had an issue with Nullifiers and I will never understand people that have problems with Nullifiers.

With the arsenal options we have available now there is no reason to not have a kit with a gun dedicated to bubble busting.

I just run Fulmin full-auto to do the job, it rips them in an instant. Then I run with a Catchmoon as the main ranged damage dealer, having it equipped with a Pax Charge for battery mechanic. This means that when I swap to Fulmin to take out the bubble my Catchmoon recharges at the same time, then when I stuff away my Fulmin it recharges as I take out the other baddies with my Catchmoon, Cyath or exalted weapon.

Corrosive, crit+munitions+punch through on Fulmin, Radiation crit on Catchmoon, then a full physical slash condition overload hybrid build on Cyath. A weapon to deal with everything in the same kit, no matter if it has heavy alloy/ferrite armor or if it is infested or corpus, it all dies easily.

[Learicorn]

I just wish explosive weapons wouldn't bounce off of them, it makes no sense and makes already underused weapons even weaker.

[SordidDreams]

19 hours ago, MR9BCI said:

We are supposed to hate nullifiers, otherwise whats the point?

I mean, they're part of a game? The point of a game is to be enjoyed? I don't think the point of any enemy is to be hated. Like, yeah, enemies need to present an obstacle to the player, but ultimately they should be enjoyable. The arbi drones are a great example, IMO. Yeah, they're a PITA, but it's sooo satisfying to pop them and blow up the enemies they were protecting. Nullifiers, though? They just have that annoyance element, they don't deliver the satisfaction.

Edited June 22, 2019 by SordidDreams

[makaloff95]

while i understand their concept i find it frustrating that they not only prevents you from casting abiltiies, it removes EVERYTHING of your active stuff, protects the enemies inside and that thing on the top move so fast and can take a beating that if you are going to deal with the corpus you better pack a high rate of fire rifle and a frame that arent reliant on abilties beacuse youre in for a hell of a ride. but the new (demolysts? whatever the new unit is called on jupiter) isnt much fun either to deal with. there is ways of making mobs more challening without making them a bullet sponge or making your abilities useless.

[Aldain]

Only thing I don't like about them is that the shield requires multiple hits regardless of weapon type meaning that things like bows are utterly useless against them.

My question is why a certain level of punch-through doesn't just fly through the shield, I'm talking like 3.0+m levels of non-ability punch-through as a minimum so heavy punch-through could serve as a counter for slower firing weapons.

[Trooopsie]

On 2019-06-21 at 11:46 PM, VanFanel1980mx said:

Play with dragon Keys equipped then, if you still think is too hard don't mod your frame, there you go.

Probably still be easy.

[JohnnyMeta]

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Neutralizing_Justice Once the bubble is destroyed, it does not regenerate again

[k05h]

Am 22.6.2019 um 05:40 schrieb VanFanel1980mx:

an interesting way of making them a little more fair would be to limit the size of the bubble according to the room's height, not to mention it would make more sense, don't you think?

Having more mods like Neutralizing Justice would be my preferred way to go. It would be amazing to have a few weapons that instantly pop those bubbles or a MOA companion mod that shock pops all bubbles in an area. 

I am not in favor of changing nullis because they provide an interesting challenge to the usual Volt, Saryn and Mesa press X to win. I just like to see different tools to counter them. 

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

On 2019-06-21 at 11:40 PM, VanFanel1980mx said:

Other than DE's desperate attempt at killing their core gameplay by turning it into a generic shooter with parkour, when you think about it nullifier bubbles are generated by a drone flying above its caster but then the harder the game gets the bigger the bubbles are no matter the area, that basically means the drone goes through the ceiling, an interesting way of making them a little more fair would be to limit the size of the bubble according to the room's height, not to mention it would make more sense, don't you think?
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Shills coming to defend everything in 3...2...1...

 

It was working that way originally. I wonder if its bugged out.

[--Aegis--MR9]

On 2019-06-22 at 9:46 AM, VanFanel1980mx said:

Play with dragon Keys equipped then, if you still think is too hard don't mod your frame, there you go.

For someone with over thousand posts, I am really surprised you said that, I am sure you know the game as well as anyone else. 

I can write up a really big essay to explain why what you said doesnt work the way as you said. But if thats what you think, then I would be just wasting my time. 

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

Pro tip:


Smack them with a melee, they can't do anything to you within the bubble