Frames and weapons you wish would get a nerf

[Loza03]

24 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Then again i'd much rather see a general energy rework, leaving ults intact as such, but reducing spammability overall:

 

I'd prefer it if the ult-like abilities either needed extra resources like Baruuk or Nidus, or just had extra mechanics that punish overuse - maybe whilst also rewarding less spammy use? This'd leave the more generous energy economy for weaker powers that really should be freely available or are designed to be spammed, and could be introduced more gradually, letting players acclimate to the new amount over time.

For example, one thought I had for Limbo's Stasis for example (which is OP in the sense that you turn off everything and basically can't lose with it up), being an energy ramp-up like Hysteria, but with a ramp-down time as well. You turn it on, and it starts off cheap, cheaper than Limbo can easily maintain just by being in the rift, but eventually increases to the point where it's downright impossible to maintain without constant enemy kills, and can drain Limbo's energy very, very swiftly (I'm thinking, like 20 or more energy per second, or whatever remains intense even after you minimise its drain with mods). After turning it off, whilst energy no longer drains, the level its at ramps down over time, so if you turn it back on, it starts ramping back up from there, so you can't just reset it quickly.

Basically, having stasis on for a long time makes it difficult to maintain, and it takes longer for it to become easily maintainable again. It punishes overusing the power, but if you manage it effectively, you're rewarded by having one of the most effective CC abilities basically for free.

Limbo might need some buffs or new powers to make up for it (since he relies a lot on Stasis for several of his core uses), but that's a topic for a dedicated thread.

[Hypermega]

Bullet jumping! there i said it. let some frames do it as it is now but not most it should be more of a skill cap and almost not worth doing in close quarters. overblown damage and movement has trivialized so much of the game to cheesy meme playstyles! 

Also yes nerf saryn, and volt! require LOS because pressing a button should not be stronger than aiming a weapon and if you think it should you probably spend a lot of time polishing a participation trophy or typing /give_all and /godmode. 

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

dont find this thread constructive in its discussion, just stating NERF this n that/ or backhand remarks and or rage that one frame is strong

in terms of warframes, id say rather then nerf a frame  (ember. trinity being good examples..) its better to upscale others to greater capacity saryn has been nerf/buf looped for years now shes in a good spot function wise

but then again many frames are using OLD styles of combat for powers , recent reworked frames or newer ones have great benefits of new synergistic and capable kits 

saryn, ember, nova, banshee, frost all have AOE powers , saryns however is the only scaling factor power, so adding a  scaling mechanic to most aoe frames and even non aoe frames would greatly improve overall squad flow

 

 

[Teridax68]

17 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

in terms of warframes, id say rather then nerf a frame  (ember. trinity being good examples..) its better to upscale others to greater capacity saryn has been nerf/buf looped for years now shes in a good spot function wise

I don't entirely agree with this reasoning: while I agree that the first option shouldn't be to nerf frames, sometimes the problem really does come from a warframe being too strong: when Mesa can clear an entire room of level 100+ enemies in seconds, or Saryn can kill enemies at the same level ranges without even being aware of their existence, buffing every nuke frame to their level would just make the game harder to balance, and less capable of delivering any sort of engaging gameplay to the player. It's also worth mentioning that DE has somewhat tried the above approach, with mixed success: rather than outright nerf Trinity, for example, DE has instead designed a whole lot of other frames that deal lots of damage in addition to applying lots of easy utility, e.g. Harrow or Octavia, yet even then, the only reason Trinity isn't as relevant now is because damage has become comparatively more important in an environment where people are bringing more survivable frames and keep their own Energy topped up without too much effort. In every other metagame, she's been dominant, and even now she's still important in some mission types. Designing and balancing competition just to be at least as strong as the current strongest option is a never-ending race that leaves a ton of power creep in its wake.

Quote

saryn, ember, nova, banshee, frost all have AOE powers , saryns however is the only scaling factor power, so adding a  scaling mechanic to most aoe frames and even non aoe frames would greatly improve overall squad flow

This I think also feeds into the problem: if our frames scale with our enemies, what is even the point of scaling anyway? One cannot honestly complain about the game being incapable of delivering a challenge, or taking us too long to deliver a challenge through scaling enemy levels, while asking for more scaling on our behalf, as when we scale, that simply means enemies scale comparatively slower. Personally, I'd much rather bring our ability and weapon power all to the same level, and get rid of personal scaling entirely, than make every frame scale, particularly since Saryn's method of scaling is to completely strip the enemy's armor and halve their health, in addition to dealing up to 100k DPS with Spores.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Teridax68

[RamonLLLL]

OP's just jelly Saryn swept the whole tileset before he can

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

Excalibur, Excalibur Umbra, and Skiajati.

No real reason outside hating them so bad that they just get removed for playing literally as poorly as I see them.

Just nerf them back to the stone age and toss 'em.

I'd use the Discord Smirk emoji here if I could.

Edited July 30, 2019 by (XB1)ALG Minuscule36

[Firedtm]

21 hours ago, InfinitusPhoenix said:

Discuss.

I would love for DE to finally nerf Saryn for example

It not that she needs a nerf, it that some of the other frames need a buff.

Example Ember, she was unfairly nerfed into the ground, another example is Banshee, she gets a buff to where she is useful for once again and people start to cry about her so DE nerfs her into the ground.

Need I say more... DE needs to stop over nerfing warframes that work and start looking into why the other ones need to be buffed.

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

35 minutes ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

dont find this thread constructive in its discussion, just stating NERF this n that/ or backhand remarks and or rage that one frame is strong

Exactly. I believe OP intended to create an argument instead of a civil discussion. I summon the mods to close or delete this thread from existence. We don’t need nor want this behavior. 

[Drivrius]

Probably no frame and weapon?

 

If anything I would buff a few weapons and frames.

 

Buff Paris Prime, Tipedo Prime, all dual daggers, remove self damage from all weapons etc.

 

Buff frames like Mag or poor Ember who is best described as "a poor man's hobo" right now...

[Cubewano]

8 hours ago, Vortuna said:

Based on the reasons they want a nerf on AoE frames, most of which are selfish, they are better of playing Destiny 2 in general, may not have bullet jumps and stuff but they can use their weapons to kill, if that's what they so desire.

So based on virtually nothing you're telling them to play an entirely different game because you don't agree with what they want and because you fear it'll impact your personal experience? And you believe they are the notably selfish ones?  

Edited July 30, 2019 by Cubewano

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

56 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

this game is a causal fest. people don't complain because the very nature of the game itself is easy.  also saryn doesn't need help. most dps players don't need help unless they're being  awful. being a support frame in most start chart missions is dead. stop lying to yourself and other people. 

Lol, you can always support your teammates, just depends how you do it.  Your comment says a lot about you. 

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

47 minutes ago, (XB1)A Excal Umbra said:

Exactly. I believe OP intended to create an argument instead of a civil discussion. I summon the mods to close or delete this thread from existence. We don’t need nor want this behavior. 

id be fine if it was a civil discussion or more constructive view of both sides , that would HELP de view things and make possible GOOD changes to suite all parties 

34 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

if you think saryn is the only frame that has scaling dmg. then yea, I want this thread gone. replies like this showcase how narrowminded this community is with frame selection. there are frames that can go above and beyond what green day prime can do. you just don't bother to look. 

never actually stated specifically that I belied saryn was the only scaling damage just that she had scaling damage and pointed that out. I even further stated and explained that scaling damage is in itself one factor of an example to scale other AOE frames nothing more .

Id say thats pretty narrow-minded of you, for assuming something more  beyond what was posted tenno, plenty of frames have scale damage , even if its with augments or innate, plenty can manage just fine. zephys tornado, hydroid puddle, nezha reaping chalkram, ect all have a scale factors that can make life much easier

58 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't entirely agree with this reasoning: while I agree that the first option shouldn't be to nerf frames, sometimes the problem really does come from a warframe being too strong: when Mesa can clear an entire room of level 100+ enemies in seconds, or Saryn can kill enemies at the same level ranges without even being aware of their existence, buffing every nuke frame to their level would just make the game harder to balance, and less capable of delivering any sort of engaging gameplay to the player. It's also worth mentioning that DE has somewhat tried the above approach, with mixed success: rather than outright nerf Trinity, for example, DE has instead designed a whole lot of other frames that deal lots of damage in addition to applying lots of easy utility, e.g. Harrow or Octavia, yet even then, the only reason Trinity isn't as relevant now is because damage has become comparatively more important in an environment where people are bringing more survivable frames and keep their own Energy topped up without too much effort. In every other metagame, she's been dominant, and even now she's still important in some mission types. Designing and balancing competition just to be at least as strong as the current strongest option is a never-ending race that leaves a ton of power creep in its wake.

 

yes i agree damage has become a HUGE overwhelming factor rather then the years ago when you needed a support unit , tank, fighter, ect on a squad to balance out and deal with mobs to liver forever , its what hurts vauban so hard (why he needs a rework) cc is < damage as its far better to wipe out enemies in mass before they can damage you then it is to hold them in place.

as for support frames/healers , we have things like oberon, wisp, mag, hildryn and nezha (ect)  which fill a multi role function, damage, cc , support, tank all in one

trinity just fell behind the times, even her debuf is what 75%(iirc) now? use nezha (warding halo) or even gara to throw 90% debuff of damage on allies and DEF objects

buffing frames is helpful but not a 100% solution, you are right , but then we also still have enemy scaling issues which is the direct cause why frames with DPS are now on the rise. im honestly not sure of great implementation of user vs NPC enemies. id love better Ai dev on enemies (like in fear) , I know its become a lot better since earth rework (i actually enjoyed testing this ) but still more AI dev and tactics on the enemies side besides being cannon fodder would be great, it wouldnt solve much more then immersion and game play dynamics i think. I honestly dont have a singular all encompassing great solution to the balance of both frames & enemies myself and probably why DE has had such a problem with this, it is tricky.

 

 

[Cubewano]

3 hours ago, Firedtm said:

It not that she needs a nerf, it that some of the other frames need a buff.

Example Ember, she was unfairly nerfed into the ground, another example is Banshee, she gets a buff to where she is useful for once again and people start to cry about her so DE nerfs her into the ground.

Need I say more... DE needs to stop over nerfing warframes that work and start looking into why the other ones need to be buffed.

Do they work though? They fully invalidate areas of play to the point it's redundant (and at points a con) to be running with other people, where there isn't enough enemy engagement to match a team of players (barely enough to match one), and where difficulty is fully impossible to ramp up in a meaningful way because the range of power at our disposal isn't really counterable. On the surface level it may seem like they work, but that's about as far as it goes isn't it? 

Ember was improperly balanced sure, but she wasn't unfairly nerfed, she was an unengaging cast and forget room clearer for speed runs who melted enemies before you really could see them and made early to mid game pretty much meaningless as she could literally just walk through all that content and everything would die. That is absolutely cause for a nerf in that area of proficiency and was without question warranted. Nobody was surprised when it was announced she was getting rebalanced, and people had been expecting it long before it came. The only problem with how the nerf went over is that they didn't factor in how she functioned after the nerf to make sure she was still balanced, they more or less prioritized addressing her ult over fixing the full character, and that's the primary fault with her rework. They weren't wrong for going in there and trying to reduce her ult, just wrong for the method they ultimately went about doing it. 

So yes I would say you do need to say more if you think buffing should be our way.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Cubewano

[(PSN)DidacoJack]

6 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

I would! If I had a switch, I really would. Cause I trust Nintendo more than DE to make a fun game, and they've not failed me so far.

I do enjoy Nintendo games a lot too, hell, I grew up with a Gameboy in my hands.

And I agree that Nintendo is way more affordable on the fun aspect.

But if we have to consider Warframe (and we have to, we're in a WF forum after all), then we cannot ignore the elephants in the room that are Overpower and Powercreep.

I've never understand this fear of nerfs,  if they open up more possibilities, why the F not.

[Mr.Ghrin]

The hell are you on about? 

It's a PVE game. No one cares. Go play in the ballpit

[stormy505]

On 2019-07-29 at 12:47 PM, BansheePrime said:

When one thing is OP it needs to be brought in line with everything else. Everything else should not be buffed to match it. It's this weird thing called balance.

When one thing is UP it needs to be brought in line with everything else. Everything else should not be nerfed to match it. It's this weird thing called balence.

Considering we have fewer UP frames compared to the status quo. We should buff them up like how DE reworked wukong and are going to rework nyx and vauban in the near future.

[Cubewano]

22 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

When one thing is UP it needs to be brought in line with everything else. Everything else should not be nerfed to match it. It's this weird thing called balence.

Considering we have fewer UP frames compared to the status quo. We should buff them up like how DE reworked wukong and are going to rework nyx and vauban in the near future.

When one thing is "UP" nerfing is how you bring them in line with everything else, you don't nerf the down things. I think you are confused about how a power gap is closed. 

And us having fewer broken frames means all the more we should just rebalance them since they'd take much less work to do as opposed to re-balancing the majority. Rebalancing 5 things > rebalancing 35 things. 

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

1 hour ago, moostar95 said:

you quite literary shot your self in the foot when you said she is the only frame to have powers that scale. all while you left out Octavia, nidus, mesa, and one more frame im not going to talk about because this thread is nerf tastic already. these frames are well known towards having powers and skills that scale. while giving off dmg. (no some of them aren't nukes, but they scale and can kill VERY well. ) You made it sound like saryn is the only frame to truly scale and that is a damn lie. 

quite LITERALLY didnt say she was the only one, literally said she had the mechanic , how I made it sound is irrelevant , and i have to say at the very least seems like your seriously projecting on something, there is a bunch of old quotes about assuming for this very reason my fellow tenno , there are ways of arguing constructively and this is not one of them , nor do i want to demean or belittle what could be a breakthrough in what my opposing views take to truly help and solve the problem 

 Id suggest you calm down and not over-read to much into my posts i tend to be straightforward and not overword things , how "something sounds" dosnt mean or imply anything to contrary or attacking to your view , thats  a fallacy , i was stating a point of what she does and how it reflects to frames i specifically mentioned , octavia as an example you suggested HAS a scale factor based on enemy damage and again i stated NOTHING to contradict that fact anywhere against her, so your taking my words not as intended, and this is again back to my original point that this is not a constructive means of argument and why i found this thread  toxic.

I would recommend "necessary wisdom"  , as i personally do want to understand the issues of my fellow tenno , even if a view contradict my own, learning why and maybe find a common ground or using it to explain the argument better to result in a solution for both sides is the goal for us right?

If people are having an issue with saryn specifically , what is it, why is it, whats the cause, how is it doing this, ect. we need indepth constructive information to help the developers on both sides to find that balance that we seek. thus blatant statements such as "nerf saryn, cause op" gives us nothing to work with, neither is "shes fine leave her alone, Get GEWD'  types ive seen, so im sorry if youve become aggravated by my posts and or  perhaps other posts that back reflected onto me, im not sure. but my intent is that quite literally this very issue of why i have issues with this thread and how arguments spiral and become personal attacks and such which just end badly 

[Lutesque]

Things don't gey nerfed... they get "Reworked" remember how they reworked Ember ? Yeah..... lets do that for all te enemies in the game.... 

[(PSN)Quantaminum]

Ivara

[Cubewano]

2 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Things don't gey nerfed... they get "Reworked" remember how they reworked Ember ? Yeah..... lets do that for all te enemies in the game.... 

Excalibur was also the result of a rework, so was Mag, Nezha, Wukong, Volt, etc, I'm not sure I see your point. Reworks aren't a static end result, and while what happened to Ember is unfortunate there's no reason to assume that's the end result for any rework, heck I'm highly doubtful it's the end for Ember. It may be taking longer than warranted but I'm skeptical Ember won't see another rework one day as well to amend her issues. Fortunately thanks to all the op crap in the game people don't want DE to fix though, they have a lot more things to rebalance all the while adhering to same limited availability of time so things take even longer~

[xV3NOMx]

Nothing.

Too many warframes and weapons already have been nerfed due to Players whining about how well other Players out perform them on missions.

R.I.P. List

• Ash (blade storm)
• Ember (world on fire)
• Valkyr (everything)
• Wukong (everything)
• Loki (teleport)
• Rhino (ironskin)
• Hydroid (tentacle swarm)
• Vauban (bastille and mines)
• Nekros (desecrate)
• Trinity (ability efficiency loss, blessing)
• Frost (snowglobe)
• Telos Boltace
• Tonkor
• Synoid Simulor
• Synapse
• and more, and more

This needs to stop!

Edited July 30, 2019 by xV3NOMx

[stormy505]

28 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

When one thing is "UP" nerfing is how you bring them in line with everything else, you don't nerf the down things. I think you are confused about how a power gap is closed. 

And us having fewer broken frames means all the more we should just rebalance them since they'd take much less work to do as opposed to re-balancing the majority. Rebalancing 5 things > rebalancing 35 things. 

I feel like you didn't read my post. When one thing is under powered, bringing it in line with everything else would mean buffing it.

That's what I said. We have fewer 'bad' frames then good frames. So buffing the bad frames up to the level of the useful frames (like what they did with wukong, and what they're doing with nyx and vauban.)

[Cubewano]

14 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

I feel like you didn't read my post. When one thing is under powered, bringing it in line with everything else would mean buffing it.

That's what I said. We have fewer 'bad' frames then good frames. So buffing the bad frames up to the level of the useful frames (like what they did with wukong, and what they're doing with nyx and vauban.)

but this was about something being up, not down. 

and not really, we have a handful of extreme preformers like saryn/equinox/octavia who have moved the power margin way ahead. fixing them beats making everything a nuke, at least in terms of being efficient among other things. (they also have not said their plans for vauban, nor indicated any plans in the near future for nyx at all)

[DeMonkey]

20 minutes ago, xV3NOMx said:

Nothing.

Too many warframes and weapons already have been nerfed due to Players whining about how well other Players out perform them on missions.

R.I.P. List

• Wukong (everything)

This needs to stop!

Well, there goes any credibility you may have had. Wukong wasn't outperforming anyone in missions, and has only been made better with the rework.