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844448

Can someone tell me why you dislike archwing?

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On 2019-10-05 at 10:33 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Clunky controls, underpowered weapons, lack of any engaging content.

Only the starter weapons are underpowered.

As for clunky controls - for the most part, yes. They could do better. Experimental controls aren't as frustrating, though (you have to change that in settings).

Lack of engaging content? More like lack of content period. There's, what, 6 Archwing missions? We need more of them to begin with before we can even begin to claim they're not engaging.
Whatever "engaging" even means, considering I spent most non-Archwing missions just running around mass slaughtering every enemy I come across without any thought given to objectives...

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2 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

The short version is people don't like that it's in 3D, though the controls do need to be improved dramatically.

"People don't like it that it's in 3D." It's not in true 0-g, not in true 3D either because there's an "up". Unless you turn on experimental controls, you're still pretty much in a cube with a WASDctrlspace tri-axial control scheme.

...it's the lack of content, face it.

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3 minutes ago, evilChair said:

"People don't like it that it's in 3D." It's not in true 0-g, not in true 3D either because there's an "up". Unless you turn on experimental controls, you're still pretty much in a cube with a WASDctrlspace tri-axial control scheme.

...it's the lack of content, face it.

I know it needs more content.

It's just that what I perceive from everybody complaining about Archwing is that they feel the controls suck.

They're not entirely wrong, mind you.

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On 2019-10-05 at 8:21 AM, 844448 said:

But apparently, archwing is considered bad, worse on Uranus submersible so can someone tell me why? I find archwing to be very fun and out of the mainstream gameplay, even the control is smooth enough for me with back roll for fast stop (move backwards + tap shift)

Because the controls/physics make zero sense.

Why would rolling back be the way to do a fast stop? It's still not a very fast stop anyways. Why can I fly at full boost perfectly circling a tree? The reason Archwing controls are bad is because moving fast gives you the best control. We know what Archwings are capable of, so why isn't it just easier to use those capabilities? My Itzal can stop on a dime if I use my 2nd ability. 

I honestly just wish it worked more like Wukong's Cloud Walker. I just don't like moving at such a high speed when I'm not using any controls. It just doesn't feel right. It doesn't fit the style of how Archwings work or anything else in Warframe for that matter. You can do stuff that doesn't make any sense if you aim and boost, but if you let off the controls you just keep going and going. I would love an experimental flight mode where you instantly stop when you're not using any movement controls. 

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1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Whatever "engaging" even means

To me engaging means "not falling asleep from boredom while playing the mission" but that's just me. Granted that is a vast number of Warframe's missions depending on your team-comp.

And sadly that is most of the Archwing missions, even the Interception missions are dull, though the least dull because you actually need to fight something unlike the trench runs and rush.

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3 hours ago, Aldain said:

To me engaging means "not falling asleep from boredom while playing the mission" but that's just me.

I fall asleep on pretty much everything else in Warframe, so I'm not sure if that's a good bar to set...

Play a horde shooter for long enough, and the challenge goes away no matter where you go or what you use.

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

And sadly that is most of the Archwing missions, even the Interception missions are dull, though the least dull because you actually need to fight something unlike the trench runs and rush.

I think Pursuit is great in concept, but it's ultimately just too easy. Once I got decent weapons and modded them out, I just spam Fluctus at the target and... well, objective complete.

Mobile Defense actually has a surprisingly large number of enemies, so that could be more exciting if there was a decently high level version.

I ultimately blame the enemy AI. It already does terribly in normal missions, so I don't think it translates well to Archwing missions.

I'm really wishing DE would just put a halt to all their big projects (after Empyrean and New War, mind you) and focus hard on developing their AI to actually be engaging. Horde shooters don't have to be mindless slaughterfests.

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DE needs to think about it like this: If they ripped AW completely out and made it it's own stand alone game, would anyone play it? Why? The answers tell you all you need to know.

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32 minutes ago, No1NParticular31 said:

DE needs to think about it like this: If they ripped AW completely out and made it it's own stand alone game, would anyone play it? Why? The answers tell you all you need to know.

Everyone in the topic's made that point one way or another. I wish I could say this is a joke but the matter of fact is that Frame Fighter is more engaging than Archwing, and if Empyrean does not entirely replace mid- and high-lvl archwing missions, game health will suffer. However, if archwing were to be integrated into regular gameplay in the same way you have it on OV and PoE, as a kind of tile-specific gameplay modulation, it would, if done correctly, make the mechanic relevant. In that department, sharkwing was a complete failure for being a clunky gameplay cosmetic where gameplay cosmetics, let alone clunky ones, should have no place. Archwing is a game within a game and if you want to make it relevant you have to make it enjoyable.

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9 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

the Atmosphere Archgun system only helped to show just how weak the Archguns are compared to all the other guns in the game.

All Archguns were given a damage penalty on foot when Profit-Taker was first launched, that's how this "Archguns are weak" stigma started. It's actually been reversed, and now Archguns are STRONGER on foot than they are in space, so they can actually be stronger than normal guns like the NPCs were claiming

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To answer the question in the title:

The controls are floaty and imprecise.  There's too much momentum involved in moving - it takes what feels like a couple of seconds to get to full speed, and then *ages* to slow down or turn.  If you use the spacebar turbo burst it makes this so much worse.  The levels are quite clearly NOT designed with this kind of movement in mind and you'll spend most of your time either crawling along at half speed, or pinballing off every wall you pass.  Or more likely, getting stuck on random bits of geometry.

The maps are set to "epic space scale," with enemies hundreds of meters away.  The pickups are set to Warframe scale and are barely visible.  The pickup range is tiny so even if you spot a mod or health boost, there's a good chance you'll slide past it (thanks to the floaty movement) without actually scooping it up.  Itzal wins again, since Cosmic Crush will drag any loot objects into you.

There's no real variety in choosing Archwings.  If you have Itzal, you use Itzal.  Blink and Cosmic Crush are simply too useful compared to anything any other Archwing can offer.  There's a bit more variety in the weapons (except the short range shotgun, which is terrible) simple because they all suck pretty much equally.  You'll probably just use melee and the auto lock-on feature that goes with it to bounce from enemy to enemy and kill them instantly.  Trying to use the sniper rifle type archguns in space is just an exercise in frustration.  If you aren't using melee, you probably use the flak cannon or the one that fires energy blades, because they compensate for the janky movement and relatively tiny enemy hitboxes by just killing everything in an area.  Or just use Itzal and Cosmic Crush them all.

Most of the game types are not optimized for playing as an Archwing.  Interception is massively frustrating, even more so than normal.  Enemies don't need to reach a specific terminal, they just have to get within range to start "hacking" the pylons.  For me, Archwing Interception is just impossible solo.  You'll never be able to capture the pylons and hold them for more than a few seconds.  The Grineer asteroid maps don't look like linear corridors, but they *act* like they are.  Including being able to fly "out of the map" if you head in the wrong direction.  The waypoint marker is derpy to the point of being actively working against you, often pointing the wrong way or even out of the map entirely.  And it often disappears completely when you finish the mission - good luck guessing which random area of empty space is the extraction zone.

The "Six degrees of freedom" movement UI is just bad.  The maps were originally laid out with a definite sense of "up" and "down."  Being able to flip upside down makes all the other movement problems worse, and completely breaks the mini-map.  If you are sideways, it can stop displaying hallways at all.  It doesn't always flip the display of hallways or rooms when you go fully upside down, and enemies barely appear on the mini-map at all because of the strange way range is scaled.  (You still have your Warframe's Enemy Detection range, so anything that shows up at all is already close enough to slap you.  Again, good luck finding that one Grineer drone or Corpus Osprey that spawned and instantly got stuck on a wall.)  You can disable the garbage 6DoF controls by switching off the Experimental mode, but this isn't obvious and only helps a little.

In the open world areas Archwings are only good for movement, and only because they're so much faster than anything else.  Instead of either normal "flight" controls where you fly towards your targeting cursor or the full 6DoF controls, you are locked to a set height and have to use two completely new keys (not needed anywhere else) to slowly hover up or down.  Being locked to a fixed plane like this makes me instantly sick because I slide sideways when I expect to move forward.  The controls work normally if you're sprinting, but instantly snap back to "Vomit Comet" mode if you try to shoot.  The inertia of flight is also much worse, and you'll take several seconds to coast to a stop if you simply let go of the movement controls.

An additional problem with Archwings in open world areas is that nearly every enemy with a ranged attack has the ability to instantly dispel your Archwing.  This is frustrating most of the time, and game breaking if you're playing as Titania.  Because her Razorwing mode counts as an Archwing.  But when her Razorwing form gets hit with an "Archwing Disabler" attack, it just instantly kills her instead.

Archwing is a mode that was added to the game and then almost instantly abandoned.  It's boring, poorly balanced, and often outright broken.  Archwing mods are almost completely irrelevant to the rest of the game.  Only the weapon mods have any effect.  And they're so desperate to keep arc-guns from being overpowered that there's really no reason to use them outside of the Profit Taker fight.  And they're only useful there because the fight doesn't allow anything else to damage Profit Taker.  Hopefully Emperyion means that the devs will take a look at Archwing, decide it's complete garbage, and rebuild it from the ground up to not be terrible.  But I'm not going to hold my breath.

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57 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

All Archguns were given a damage penalty on foot when Profit-Taker was first launched, that's how this "Archguns are weak" stigma started. It's actually been reversed, and now Archguns are STRONGER on foot than they are in space, so they can actually be stronger than normal guns like the NPCs were claiming

blazing saddles no GIF
 

They made no changes to the damage output of the Archguns while on foot. Nowhere in the patch notes does it say that they reverted any kind of damage penalty.

Archguns are weak because their mods provide lower stat increases than the normal weapon mods.

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I disabled the Experimental Flight when it was introduced because the Roll is difficult to use without a gamepad... But I actually prefer having it enabled, since it resembles Descent... Too bad I can't use my joystick on the movement because its not a gamepad, otherwise it would actually be a lot more fun with it.

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DE employee 1 "I have the perfect idea."

DE employee 2 "What's that?"

DE employee 1 "Ninjas in space."

DE employee 2 "That's an awesome idea."

DE employee 1 "And tunnels.  Lots of tiny tunnels"

DE employee 2 "Perfect.  And underwater mazes." 

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46 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

They made no changes to the damage output of the Archguns while on foot. Nowhere in the patch notes does it say that they reverted any kind of damage penalty.

EDIT: OK I got my facts straight

What happened was the Velocitus got heavily nerfed on foot (this IS in the patch notes), and I mis-remembered it happening to the Imperator and Larkspur instead for some reason

 

As for my ORIGINAL statement... I still stand by that space Archguns are disgustingly overpowered in space missions. Even with Rubedo-Lined Barrel being far weaker than Serration, Archguns without potatoes can tear apart crowds of level space 60 enemies in the blink of an eye, while ground guns with no potatoes take entire magazines to take on a couple of level 60 ground enemies

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Play almost any free space mech sim and you will see certain recurring features that Warframe lacks. Target locking, auto orientation to a designated target, target switching....

Warframe's "gundam" mode is by far the worst on the market, or at least the worst I've played.

Additionally Warframe really needs to add more weapons to the mode so that you have one weapon for target damage and a second weapon for crowd control, like rocket pods. They kinda tried to handle that with the archwing skills but sadly that just hasn't worked. The reason why people don't like it is because it's just........... objectively bad and from day one was always just a tacked on element instead of a primary feature. 

They have confirmed they are reworking archwing. But they really should have looked at the developers who focus heavily on this type of game and learned from them instead of just saying "lol we'll make our own mech space shooter with blackjack and hookers"

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I personally dislike the controls. They are clumsy and somehow counter-intuitive.

I am a quick learner I´d say, even with my 40 years 😄 But while I can run, bullet jump and flip through maps like a 12 year old, I keep turbo-boosting through Tusk thumpers instead of hitting the brakes. I´m like that old man from the neighbourhood who hit the gas pedal instead of the brake and crashes through his garage wall.

If they made small adjustments to the controls and added some usability to archwings, I think many people would like them more. Archwing missions on the other hand are pretty boring and don´t benefit from your warframes, most mods and weapons, which somehow feels like playing a different game.

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2 hours ago, IamLoco said:

I keep turbo-boosting through Tusk thumpers instead of hitting the brakes. I´m like that old man from the neighbourhood who hit the gas pedal instead of the brake and crashes through his garage wall.

To be fair, Skywing doesn't use the experimental controls. I personally hate using Skywing, but it's the best way to get around the large maps.

With experimental controls enabled in settings, you will quickly screech to a halt in actual Archwing missions.

It's still not ideal, but it's better than the default controls.

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The fluidity of standard warframe does not translate well in archwing.    It feels "janky" at best.    When running with a warframe and I stop pressing W...what happens..I STOP.  This does not happen in archwing.   This is just the tip of issue in my books and why I minimize play in it.  

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You expect to get this mode where you're zipping around warships, engaging capital ships and have this massive open play space. What we actually get is enclosed spaces that we slam our frames into repetitively, sitting on our asses doing defense and interception .05 but in space, and a game mode that comes by maybe for a week and we won't see for another month. Archwing melee is also just using the same old animation as well, and has been using the same animation since 2014, so aside from appearance and numbers, it's pretty much nothing unique about that. Maybe the next mainline update gonna improve this, or maybe not, but right now it's boring as hell.

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Well i don't hate archwing but I like using my warframe for its powers and while in archwing I don't get to do that. 

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I don't personally hate it and it does have its uses/fun.

The problem in my opinion is that the controls are just to overly sensative.  It works fine when in an open area.  But when your more enclosed the controls are overly touchy.

Keep in mind to console controls differ from pc keybaord.

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for my 10p archwing is a complete PITA when you start out. The initial odonata frame is poor with abilities that are hard to master when you are new to the controls and have no archwing (or related) mods to power things up.

Once you get past this - get a pile of quality archwing mods (which are improving all the time) get yourself a different wing (itzal is my favourite) then everything changes for the better. Its not as much fun as running around in game, but its not that bad, eventually.

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