weeding out the vets?

[Goodwill]

5 minutes ago, Morthal said:

Wouldn't it be wonderful, to get an update that didn't need 5 or more hotfixes after release? 

Doubt that is ever going to happen. Other games can get away with it because all they are doing is injecting additional assets but they aren't changing any of the core coding outside of a few updates where they are optimizing or cleaning up. Warframe might as well still be in beta because for better or worse, it is still a game that doesn't know what it wants to be.

[Voltage]

10 hours ago, peterc3 said:

If you can't do anything in the game, easily, without these crutches, you are outing yourself as bad at the game.

Seems like a great job by DE.

I don't really agree with OP, but I heavily disagree with this statement. You are implying that all people who enjoyed the use of overpowered melee builds or other such easy modes rely on it as a crutch. Playing for efficiency is a valid play-style, and this type of player will always be efficient in the current situation of the game. The huge nerfs to melee make Liches artificially harder but still braindead easy for someone who wants to rush through them.

However in general, the nerfs to melee as a whole leave loads of investment into waste because simple math formulas weren't tweaked on release. There is absolutely no excuse for the Scoliac disposition still being high, there is no excuse for Maiming Strike being additive for years. There is no excuse for Condition Overload exponentially scaling on itself. There is no excuse for Blood Rush scaling off additive critical chance on slide attacks. With all that said though, I am glad DE realized how important melee range is and really fixed that. That is the only melee system change I have enjoyed is the more standardized weapon range.

Personally I've lost an insane amount of Platinum and hours in the melee system, and that's part of why I dislike these changes so much. However, what really bothers me is how little uniqueness I have between the melees I loved and the current state of the system. I love Tonfas, and now the uniqueness of that class is lost as other weapons/classes outperform Tonfas in their only niche: Slide Attacking. Ohma no longer holds the highest slide damage and is outperformed by many other weapons. The only unique Tonfa is the Telos Boltace with Stormpath that is counterproductive and a nice parkour boost. 

I hope next week is filled with more statistical, mechanical, and please mathematical changes.

It would be nice if DE didn't keep making changes that punish those who have invested for weeks, months or years on content instead of fixing these things early after release. This has happened to grind in Fortuna, Plains of Eidolon, Arbitrations, and many more systems in the game. It's more infrequent for DE to pull a "Hema situation" than it is to just undermine player investment. 3 Forma takes about 30 minutes to install on a weapon. I am certain I am not alone to say I have invested well over 500 hours into the melee system (I personally sit at over 3000). The "reimbursement" to me is a kind gesture but still basically nothing to my inventory. The only way to be happy with this current melee system personally is to equate a current level 150 Grineer with previously level 400 Grineer in terms of time to kill. It will take time for me (and others) to adjust and consider Sorties as late game for melee now given the capped scaling and decent damage.

I don't think DE is trying to purposefully drive older players away or anything malicious like that, but they do continue to make changes every now and then that just trivializes past investments to a variety of areas in the game.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Voltage

[WAAAGHFRAME]

37 minutes ago, Voltage said:

However in general, the nerfs to melee as a whole leave loads of investment into waste because simple math formulas weren't tweaked on release. There is absolutely no excuse for the Scoliac disposition still being high, there is no excuse for Maiming Strike being additive for years. There is no excuse for Condition Overload exponentially scaling on itself. There is no excuse for Blood Rush scaling off additive critical chance on slide attacks. With all that said though, I am glad DE realized how important melee range is and really fixed that. That is the only melee system change I have enjoyed is the more standardized weapon range.

I agree with your first two points on the Scoliac dispo and Maiming Strike. 

CO... Was what people used to do serious endurance runs, it was never a threat to low level content.  Considering you would kill most enemies by even applying the status procs, long before you walloped them for a couple million.  Blood Rush seems mostly the same as it was, minus the interaction with maiming strike.  And for range?  I do have a bit of a problem with daggers and one handed swords having nearly the same range as whips and polearms.  But, the range issue is one of the things I have the least problem with, although it is HUGELY noticeable on some riven builds, laughably, and painfully, so.

Nice buff to a lot of weapons though.

But I'd like to ask an inherently opinionated question here:  When the new best weapons and mods get figured out, are the current fans of these melee changes going to defend them?

I'm going to guess that's a big no.

 

I agree with almost all of what you're saying btw, I only pulled that quote out because I thought it was at odds with what I otherwise strongly agreed with.

Edited November 3, 2019 by WAAAGHFRAME

[Lucifer490]

11 hours ago, cmacq said:

and during that process it never occurred to you that maybe DE does not want folks killing 500 level enemies? For all kinds of reasons the game engine certainly being one of them.....

I DESPISE this mindset of "maybe DE didn't want this" 

They left those mods in the game untouched for about 3 years.You don't give the player base something for that long, allow them to invest hundreds of hours into making builds around those mods and then heavily nerf them coz they were "unintended".

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

29 minutes ago, Lucifer490 said:

I DESPISE this mindset of "maybe DE didn't want this" 

They left those mods in the game untouched for about 3 years.You don't give the player base something for that long, allow them to invest hundreds of hours into making builds around those mods and then heavily nerf them coz they were "unintended".

I can't upvote this enough!! 

[MPonder]

Primary and Secondary still exist.

[kengxiaoju]

many changes are poorly designed.

the new update installs lots of bug.

host migration frequent

half done melee upgrade.

some are balanced

some are unrealistic（dagger range ）

some are bad l. redeemer is trash 

tons of grind （are we farming warframe or warframe farming us?）

rework of ember vauban is at ok lvl

 

 

[98Octane]

6 hours ago, Morthal said:

You haven't seen Crushing Ruin yet have you? Spin2Win is better than ever and you don't even need a macro now.

remind me if i am correct that hammer stance right... too lazy to login and check.. really dont care for hammers though, am happy with a dehtat, ya not the strongest zaw but i like the one i made put 6 forma with a riven. honestly i dont care much about a weapon as long as it doesnt give the simulor headache or attrerax motion sickness

[George_PPS]

56 minutes ago, Lucifer490 said:

I DESPISE this mindset of "maybe DE didn't want this" 

They left those mods in the game untouched for about 3 years.You don't give the player base something for that long, allow them to invest hundreds of hours into making builds around those mods and then heavily nerf them coz they were "unintended".

I will upvote this more than one time if I could. 

9 minutes ago, MPonder said:

Primary and Secondary still exist.

The key aspects of synergy between guns and melee are gone with the massive nerfng to CO and some mechanics. 

[98Octane]

1 hour ago, WAAAGHFRAME said:

I agree with your first two points on the Scoliac dispo and Maiming Strike. 

CO... Was what people used to do serious endurance runs, it was never a threat to low level content.  Considering you would kill most enemies by even applying the status procs, long before you walloped them for a couple million.  Blood Rush seems mostly the same as it was, minus the interaction with maiming strike.  And for range?  I do have a bit of a problem with daggers and one handed swords having nearly the same range as whips and polearms.  But, the range issue is one of the things I have the least problem with, although it is HUGELY noticeable on some riven builds, laughably, and painfully, so.

Nice buff to a lot of weapons though.

But I'd like to ask an inherently opinionated question here:  When the new best weapons and mods get figured out, are the current fans of these melee changes going to defend them?

I'm going to guess that's a big no.

 

I agree with almost all of what you're saying btw, I only pulled that quote out because I thought it was at odds with what I otherwise strongly agreed with.

honestly i dont like the range thing rest is fine, and good changes,, even though i benefitted a lot from it i had a gram riven with 4m range and 200 damage 167 status chance with primed range the range on that weapon now is rofl

[cmacq]

57 minutes ago, Lucifer490 said:

I DESPISE this mindset of "maybe DE didn't want this" 

They left those mods in the game untouched for about 3 years.You don't give the player base something for that long, allow them to invest hundreds of hours into making builds around those mods and then heavily nerf them coz they were "unintended".

Well it appears maybe they did. As previously stated, although I have to qualify as I'm sure they will make adjustments, if they are determined to change the endurance thing, they may lose long term players who enjoy that style of play. I am in agreement with the OP in this regard.

[WAAAGHFRAME]

4 hours ago, 98Octane said:

honestly i dont like the range thing rest is fine, and good changes,, even though i benefitted a lot from it i had a gram riven with 4m range and 200 damage 167 status chance with primed range the range on that weapon now is rofl

Hey boss, I used a scoliac riven, melee damage, range, crit on slide attack for..  at least the amount of time melee "3.0" was coming.

 

Well, it's here.  And that riven is garbage now.  So.... at least I resisted selling it to an unsuspecting fool?

Yay.

[Goodwill]

6 hours ago, Lucifer490 said:

I DESPISE this mindset of "maybe DE didn't want this" 

They left those mods in the game untouched for about 3 years.You don't give the player base something for that long, allow them to invest hundreds of hours into making builds around those mods and then heavily nerf them coz they were "unintended".

And some people stay married for 10 years and decide to have a divorce because life moves on and things change. Considering how repetitive Warframe was back then and the only content that people were doing were endurance it may have made sense. But now DE might be bored about Warframe ONLY being known for endurance runs. Especially with Railjack coming out, they are maybe trying to shake things up in order to revitalize the IP.

As I said before, DE really should just keep Warframe in beta because that is literally what it is. You know the disclaimer on beta footage, "footage may not represent final product". If Warframe is ever "completed" I doubt it would be the same as what we have now. Hell, maybe they may go more boots on the ground. Or maybe they'll just go all in Warriors Orochi style and just say screw it, we are gods. Or maybe Warframe will end up being a turn-based RPG.

[Nichivo]

The changes don't keep me from doing endless mission or mobs higher than what most people see.

I am trying to look on the bright side. We now have this feature rich Heavy Attack system, that is not at all slow, clunky, or even more worthless than the previous channeling system.(Laughing so hard I spilled my coffee🤣)

When you realize that the random percent range for damage on kuva weapons, means almost all are not worth 5 forma, but  you can just leave a Lich at rank 5 forever and enjoy all nodes under his influence starting at 95-110 level range.😎

Hey DE! Can you increase max LICH rank to10 please? 

[(PSN)dst123daniel]

I'm long time player on PS4, joined around the time frost was first put in the vault, and play almost daily. As I have only the feedback here and the pc patch notes to go from, I am not gonna comment on many things in the update directly.

But, while I get that it's painful having huge amounts of investments on stuff affected by these changes, I think it's still needed, and I also think it's better for all players, new and old.

For years these forums have been filled with complaints about enemy scaling getting stupid at super high levels, whilst we also have posts about wanting to be able to have extremely challenging content without having to be in endless missions for ages to get the enemy level to the point where the scaling gets stupid.

And, thanks to the unique interactions of the combo counter, bloodrush, condition overload and maiming strike (also arcane avenger and kavats, even harrows crit buff) we had endlessly scaling melee weapons which could tear through these super scaled high level enemies.

The problem here is that warframes difficulty is based around its scaling. And if these combinations endlessly scale, then the enemy scaling is effectively useless, so where is this difficulty?

By bringing these changes, DE are able to reset the balance to the main indicator of difficulty, making it harder for those who want a challenge and giving them that challenge faster, you won't need to wait till level 500 enemies to start having difficulty, and yet at the over end of the scale, star chart level enemies will still be manageable to the less experienced, while sortie+ level enemies start challenging more experienced players sooner. 

I myself have made extensive use of these mod combinations, and have a personal goal to use a riven with every weapon, that's optimised for that weapon, so, you can bet these changes will drastically affect me and my efforts.

But I think the aim of this rework is right, might still need a few tweaks here and there, but it's a rework that should be healthy, and as long as we can all get past the ego boost of big red numbers, or 5 hour survival bragging rights, we'll see that it's works well for longevity of Warframe

[White_Matter]

Not necessarily.

At least not on purpose.

Let me explain. Most DE staff(shot callers) don't play WF as much as an average player does. They work on it alot, but they don't play. Why ? Because it is their job. They probably do something else in their free time. They don't grind for hours, do 4 hour survival or other challenge runs. They have no idea how tedious some of the chores are, or how 1 dimensional the enemies are or how obnoxious some of the aspects of the grind/rng is. 

Their view on the game is much closer to a new players than to a Vet's. So the gamedesign decisions that come to actualization are all considered from that perspective. It is not that they don't care about the veterans, but they have no idea what it is like to be a Veteran. 

And last but not least, they make more money this way. Catering towards new or casual players or people who don't want to sink their teeth in too much will always generate more income. 

After playing this game for 6.5+ years and seeing the direction it has been taking, I'm fairly certain at this stage that Vets will never be satisfied with any of the updates to come because they are never in consideration of the decision making progress. That is the harsh reality.

Edited November 3, 2019 by White_Matter

[Shinigami_Greed]

45 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

After playing this game for 6.5+ years and seeing the direction it has been taking, I'm fairly certain at this stage that Vets will never be satisfied with any of the updates to come because they are never in consideration of the decision making progress. That is the harsh reality.

Please don't presume to speak for all of us.  Not all veterans think that way. 

I for one, am thoroughly impressed with how far this game has come in those 6.5 years.  Graphically, mechanically, and content wise... there is a ton there.

[Gurpgork]

45 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

After playing this game for 6.5+ years and seeing the direction it has been taking, I'm fairly certain at this stage that Vets will never be satisfied with any of the updates to come because they are never in consideration of the decision making progress. That is the harsh reality.

I don't think it has as much to do with the decision making process as it does with the fact that veterans have wildly differing ideas about what they want from the game in the first place. We see some of these oppositions in this very thread; one group wants new endgame content that starts at vastly higher levels than we have now, while the other group favors bringing down player power so that level 100 enemies provide a similar challenge. 

How do you change the game in a way that serves the interests of both of those groups without alienating one or the other? For the most part, you can't. 

And that's just one duality in this entire massive, sprawling game. DE can involve vets in their decision making process all they want, but that doesn't change the fact that they cannot please everybody. 

[White_Matter]

3 minutes ago, Shinigami_Greed said:

  Graphically, mechanically, and content wise... there is a ton there.

I was mainly talking about specific subjects that mostly appeal to Vets like sustainable/end game content. 

But yeah, visually and story-wise I do agree that it has come a long way.

1 minute ago, Gurpgork said:

, but that doesn't change the fact that they cannot please everybody. 

That's not my point at all. Because when you look at it, without delving into the specifics, the community of veterans agree that the game needs some balance changes and most importantly they want sustainable end game content. It is not about pleasing everybody, which is impossible, but rather pleasing a certain type of player and the needs catered around that. 

Case in point, I hated farming for murmur, because playing regular star chart missions felt like a chore. But a newer player may enjoy it because it isn't something he gave up doing years ago.

[Midas]

21 hours ago, jojokaizer said:

logged on today to check out the new melee changes.  is this DE's way of getting rid of the vets and paving a way for new players with new monetization systems and grind? many of the changes are just straight pointless or added for the sake of "change". hundreds or thousands of hours of grind just went down the drain, weapon variety died with CO being garbage now, and they basically killed their own end game by making it mostly impossible with the weapon changes.  this normalization doesn't even make sense in a game like warframe. it's funny how warframe was always praised for allowing players to become op with their own power fantasy, now it's normalize everything for balance.  oh and btw, the reworks are pure trash as well, how do you hype vauban's rework for months and end up making him exactly the same?  how??????

Honestly on my 3rd Lich as a 7 year player, I enjoy this grind but it could use a significant nerf + a massive increase to reward.

[Shinigami_Greed]

Just now, White_Matter said:

I was mainly talking about specific subjects that mostly appeal to Vets like sustainable/end game content. 

But yeah, visually and story-wise I do agree that it has come a long way..

The MMO/Online game concept of "endgame" has always been this horribly grindy, unpleasant thing to me, looming in the background of other game like something I want to avoid.  It's weird to say it, but I'm glad Warframe doesn't have that looming gloom and doom in the background that you have to grind for an infinity plus one sword, or legendary armor, or whatever else it is that makes endgame worth playing in other games.  It's all open ended, and I'm happy with it.

I'm genuinely curious why so many veterans are so enamored by something that Warframe's systems simply don't support in any traditional way.  Our "endgame" is a combination of the right mods, and focus tree crap, along with the collection of arcanes and what not.

[DrakeWurrum]

21 hours ago, jojokaizer said:

logged on today to check out the new melee changes.  is this DE's way of getting rid of the vets and paving a way for new players with new monetization systems and grind? many of the changes are just straight pointless or added for the sake of "change". hundreds or thousands of hours of grind just went down the drain, weapon variety died with CO being garbage now, and they basically killed their own end game by making it mostly impossible with the weapon changes.  this normalization doesn't even make sense in a game like warframe. it's funny how warframe was always praised for allowing players to become op with their own power fantasy, now it's normalize everything for balance.  oh and btw, the reworks are pure trash as well, how do you hype vauban's rework for months and end up making him exactly the same?  how??????

Nope.

The vets know how to adapt.

This isn't a nerf. It's a meta shake-up, intended to force us to build melee different and push buttons besides just E when doing melee.

[Shinigami_Greed]

5 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Nope.

The vets know how to adapt.

This isn't a nerf. It's a meta shake-up, intended to force us to build melee different and push buttons besides just E when doing melee.

Funny thing is, I haven't even had to change that much.  CO is still a great mod for just using melee, flat crit and crit chance mods have more values than Blood rush in most cases, and now I build for Corrosive and Heat more due to changes in heat damage. 

[SneakyErvin]

8 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Some players talk about “DE doesn’t want players to do XYZ”. “DE wants players to do this or that.” Is this the new paradigm of Warframe? Games don’t work this way. If a developer starts to dictate what players should or shouldn’t like, the game will die very soon. Are these accounts making comments paid by other developers to try to destroy the best parts of warframe and replace them with mediocrity to drive the entire game to the ground in the long term? You have mostly succeeded. 

The key aspects of synergy between guns and melee are gone with the massive nerfng to CO and some mechanics. 

Except that DE made it possible to chose from X, Y and Z along with A, B and C with this patch. Just to get some scope on how much weapon diversity the patch brought. I ran Cyath on pretty much every damn single frame prior to the change, every single build was also nearly identical. Post patch I can pick and chose between several strong weapons that feel fluid and does crazy damage aswell. Weapons I wouldnt touch with a stick previously, like Reaper Prime which turned into a fantastic meat grinder with the most simple modding. Just as Galatine Prime isnt overshadowed by Gram Prime anymore, it is just a different heavy blade with faster attacks for a slightly different playstyle preference.

The synergy is still very much there. With the reworked stances and increased base damage on weapons, they now work as good with the new CO as they did with the old one under the old stances and weapon damage distribution. Some few weapons have taken a hit, I notice zaws are a bit lacking, but that can be because my zaws were built with the old CO and BR in mind during the old melee system. But I dont really care, if I wanna try some new zaws later on I'll just build some, with other stat distribution to fit better with the new system. Not that i think I will, because my old favorite of all time, the Lesion has returned to the throne as a bamf polearm. It already did well compared to zaws pre-patch and post-patch it performs better without a riven than either of my zaws did with one prior to the patch.

[Gurpgork]

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

This isn't a nerf.

Let's not beat around the bush here. It absolutely was a nerf. It was absolutely deserved, and it should have been done 3 years ago, but it was a nerf.