Who Here Actually Enjoys the Current Lich System?

[Lost_Cartographer]

Yes, I like farming for liches.  More to the point, I like killing the thralls.  The lich is an end to the game play, a destination.

Do I wish liches DIDN'T kill me for getting the mod order wrong?  Yes.  There is no positive feedback to this action, and the negative feedback is negligible.  Flipping it such that I kill them but only temporarily, I still gain nothing, but at least I don't lose anything either, regardless of how inconsequential.

Do I wish there were more personalities than weak Joker males and angry Hal 2000 females?  Damn right I do.

Do I wish that thralls came with more special gimmicks relative to the lich besides a token movement ability?  Yes.

Do I wish I had more control over weapon and bonus %?  Sure, but I won't complain either way.

Do I wish rank was properly scaled to the 40-50 range I think it was intended to be?  Yes, definitely.  It's odd that the levels ranges from rank 1 to 5 go, 50-75, 50-60, 55-70, 70-85, 90-120.

The lich system has a ways to go yet I think.  It was meant to be a lengthy campaign against a personal enemy, not basically procedural boss fights.

[Anthraxicus]

I don't. I farmed two liches and I am not touching the third one. It is a boring waste of my time. I hate having to go out of my way to go farm thralls in missions I don't wanna play instead of being able to do it during normal gameplay. The lich itself also isn't enjoyable. Having to die in order to kill it? Yeah, right. Makes sense. They are not challenging, which is why DE came up with this boring requiem mod system to prolong these "fights". It sucks.

[Kazouie101]

I currently enjoy opting out of the lich system and will continue to do so. I killed my first Lich and i'm not sure i have ever done anything as unsatisfying before in WF, including the whole grind and the silly "NO U" mechanic. The Requiem mods wouldnt be much of an issue to me as you can get those fairly quickly once you are in the loop and don't need to grind all 8 from scratch, BUT the murmur farm is an absolute slog.

[T.Hoagie]

Considering that I killed my first Lich a few weeks ago, the system is good in theory. It has potential that needs to be tapped, and crap that needs ironed out.

I appreciate that the Devs made it so people DON'T have to stab the lich to make it go away, that is a step in the right direction on a basic level. And it makes sense that if you can constantly just down the enemy it's just wasting its time and should run.

But really, I think the major problems are currently with the grind. I could totally understand the extra grind to GET the Requiem mods if it was a one time thing, I do not fancy taking out 3 Lich's and then having to go and grind for more of the requiem mods and pray RNG replaces my used up mods in case the next Lich I have requires those same exact mod. Which is a very high possibility considering how people have terrible luck with duplicates.

Then there is the murmurs, those take an exceedingly long time to get all of the needed mods revealed, yet you STILL have to guess. And guessing wrong can make the experience more painful then fun, I know some missions that I tried to do were all but impossible and forced me to give up simply because of the increase in basic enemy level/damage largely those were anything that required you to defend a target but still. By the time you get all the murmurs, you should not need to guess the order. Or at least it should be a simplified puzzle not dependent on stabbing the lich. I mean are Tenno unable to simply pull a Star Trek and analyze it and go "Oh, this thing is a name!", or "It's a phrase that the Lich responds to". I would say not given previous missions where they figure out cryptic space messages like "The womb in the sky", or even doing the missions to get Umbra.

I would also at least like them to make more of a show with the Lich and give a reason for its power increase if they are going to keep it like it is though, like literally just SOMETHING, like the wrong relic causes its Kuva heart or whatever it is to go into overdrive. Which would give justification to it suddenly springing up and snapping your Warframe in two doesn't feel as lame.

In short it needs some work.

[Silvertap]

I love the lich hunt, i already got all the guns, and whille i didn't got all of then i was adicted to it, now i would like it to be more rewarding and that they make more to it, i mean turn it somethink more, a kuva store or something...

 

As i said, I LOVE IT, it was fun and good, i'm just waiting for more... actually i'm still doing it slowly...

 

Some times i think u people got too critic of the game, try to enjoy it more and complain less...

 

Sorry for the bad english...

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

Its an ok system i find after killing three liches.  My only real complaint is I wish we got more then 10 murmurs for stabbing them and getting insto gibbed.

Why not use stabbing them as a alternative to gain vaulted relics or parts.  Rare mods, arcanes, and more.

[AJ5511]

Not sure how many of you played shadow of Mordor and shadow of war, but that was a dope nemesis system. Hope DE can implement it without ripping it off.

just my thoughts

[T.Hoagie]

3 hours ago, AJ5511 said:

Not sure how many of you played shadow of Mordor and shadow of war, but that was a dope nemesis system. Hope DE can implement it without ripping it off.

just my thoughts

Played both, still going through Shadow of War (final chapter). I legitimately dread when some Orcs show up, particularly ones that are immune to most of my tricks, or Zog, that guy sucks to deal with.

[KiroTheTraveler]

On 2019-12-02 at 2:32 AM, Test-995 said:

Impossible! you don't gain any progress for liches unless you intended to do that specifically!!

I mean yeah sure, I spend some time on it but I don't go really that far into it and it is working out nicely for me. 

[(PSN)Nyamiche]

I've come to terms with the belief the DE generally does not care how we feel about the Lich system, seeing as the majority of the feedback toward it has been negative.  The last minute change to make the Lich kill us is BS.  The 2-4 hour mandatory grind that comes with the lich system, especially if yu get a duplicate weapon with a lower elemental bonus is BS.  The layers of RNG for the lich system is BS.  For those that enjoy the slot machine gambling that is the lich system, good for you, but to come and disparage the majority of players who dislike it is annoying.  I had no issue with rivens because they were MODS that weren't tied to progression and I didn't have to engage with them to enjoy the game.  But this is the straw that broke the camel's back for me, especially considering the ignored every single question/comment in their last devstream that players weren't happy about the current lich system.  The only time i make any progess towards Lichs now is when clanmates feel like slogging through it, but throwing ourselves at a RNG suicide machine is in no way fun.  At this point all that's left for me is Nightwave, which burns me out, and my daily logins.  I was hopeful DE wouldn't go the EA/Activision/Bethesda route.  Until this is fixed I REFUSE TO BUY and PA/Accesories/Plat.

[kuryux]

Imma have to raise my hand here o/

I do enjoy current system and feel DE has listened a LOT for lich feedback, doing lots of improvements, to list a few:

-Lichs go away after 3 downing to avoid lich lock which was ruining multiplayer

-Lich trading

-Rune drops rebalance and kuva and finishers

- And so on and so forth, it was like 8 hotfixes of  improvement

With all that said, the death is unnecessary and pointless indeed, although it doesnt bother me at all.

My main concern is if DE add more kuva weapons, more like when, cause we all know it will happen eventually. Then everyone will want that single weapon and trading will be worthless. Ppl who are 13/14 will struggle for days to get a useless wpn for a bit of xp

[Furebel]

I really like lich system, tho indeed I was expecting it to be executed a bit differently. I thought that we will be able to "kill" them normally without requiem mods, but they will just not die and will still be active, and they will gradually steal your powers as it kills your frames, and if you will ignore him, he will gain more followers, more influence, etc.

Right now you just kill random worm, and when you finish that same mission, BAM! He has an army, a whole planet, OP gun, all your powers and your helmet for some reason...

[disco_inferno6]

Kuva Lich grind level = pay to play

Edited December 3, 2019 by disco_inferno6

[Fl_3]

The Old Blood feedback thread is full of ideas and improvements for the Kuva Lich system, but it's being ignored by DE. I honestly think that they think that if they ignore it long enough it will just go away.

I'm hoping it doesn't and that eventually they realise that a large portion of the player base isn't happy playing with a broken, over grindy, RNG based game mode and they finally listen to us.

I'm not going to hold my breath though. . . . . 

[Tinklzs]

37 minutes ago, Fl_3 said:

The Old Blood feedback thread is full of ideas and improvements for the Kuva Lich system, but it's being ignored by DE. I honestly think that they think that if they ignore it long enough it will just go away.

I'm hoping it doesn't and that eventually they realise that a large portion of the player base isn't happy playing with a broken, over grindy, RNG based game mode and they finally listen to us.

I'm not going to hold my breath though. . . . . 

Another improvement I thought of, was since the kuva lich increases the level of enemies in the area they have control over, why don't DE increase the rewards from normal missions? So mine has control of mars, and his rank 5, since I'm fighting 100-120 enemies, why am I getting 80 endo as a reward? 400-600 seems much better. Relics should be axi only, that sort of thing.  This would be a reason for players to keep interacting with the KL system after getting the main rewards (KL weapons). 

 

1 hour ago, kuryux said:

doing lots of improvements

This made me laugh, can't tell if sarcasm or delusional. 

All your 'DE is listening" additions after this, is strategic manuvering. They purposefully removed these additions then added them in later as a "hey we're listening" move. Because a majority of the complaints about the KL system are common sense, that any DE employee would encounter if they actually played it like a player, not like a developer with dev commands. 

 

[Fallen77]

Il y a 21 heures, Tinklzs a dit :

I got the gauss weapons within 2 hours of him going live, and gauss being built in the foundry within 3-4 hours of him going live. FAR less time than it takes to get 2 weapons under the Kuva Lich System. And the new mission they add (disruption) was actually fun. Unlike Kuva Lich where you're doing the same content you've done before, the same missions, but instead of doing it for the reward (like you did disruption for gauss/his weapons) you're doing it for the kuva lich system, oh and KL steals stuff.

 

Well you got lucky, and maybe I was on the unlucky side, but that doesn't take away from the 1.25% chance of it to drop, not counting the possible duplicates that no one is complaining about for some reason (got 5 acceltras before finally an akarius). It doesn't matter what you think of disruption, I'm talking "doing the same thing for hours at a time". I decided I would not do anything until I got acceltra and akarius, it was a terrible experience, but that's not DE's fault, I decided to be stuborn about it, they didn't decide it for me, I had a bunch of stuff to vary my farm.

 

Il y a 21 heures, Tinklzs a dit :

I think you've been reading the forums blind for awhile, players have been asking that Stalker, G3, Zanuka all get changes to no be so RNG and also be an actual threat. I and many others have advocated for Salvage, Defection to be more interesting and less... buggy to say the least. But DE rarely listens.

It hasn't ever been anywhere near the amount of baby tears TOB is getting. A few lost souls complaining once in a while about something that is mostly accepted does not represent the community as a all. And it's not that DE doesn't listen, they do listen, they're just not plain dumb. They know it's better for the players and for them to make new content rather than spend too much time on expanding. How do you think it would have went if they DElayed all expansions by 6 month for stuff like "assassins 2.0" or something ? We have hundreds of sheep shouting "content drought" 2 weeks after every update, not too viable imo. I'd love some actual expansions (I did love disruption expansion), but DE is still a business, and as long as such quality "partners" keep showering the community with their half-baked analysis, it's gonna be pretty unlikely to happen.

 

Il y a 21 heures, Tinklzs a dit :

As for Eidolons, actual boss fights that have some challenge (had for those who've memorized them). This is your weakest example by far, and I'm going to break it down.

#1 You can be going for grace/energize and get other arcanes, while the arcanes variety in value, you're still getting something for your effort that is worth something, plat.

#2 With how energize/grace have been added to nightwave, they're more affordable than ever, piece by piece has always been cheaper than the full set for buying outright. 

Kuva Liches - doing the same content we've been doing for years, unabated now doing the same missions for one or thirteen weapons, with a very high chance of a duplicate. The issue between duplicates from disruption vs KL is this.  I can get a duplicate gauss part during rotation, but that doesn't stop me from getting parts from the amalgams and vis versa. KL if I get stuck with a duplicate I have to slog through an unfun grind, knowing my time is being wasted because I already have the reward, and pray to RNGesus that I get something I don't already have. That is not fun and is a major difference between The Old Blood and the rest of warframe.  I can get a duplicate primed part, and be able to trade it for plat and buy what I want, I get a duplicate with the old blood, and it has no value.   Now before you even bother mention slave trading, that's a band-aid system to further increase how long it takes to get what you're after.   

 

Eidolon, challenge, up for debate. It's certainly a matter of taste, but I'd rather be messing around with regular shootable ennemies on varied maps than doing that rythm game that are eidolons. To me, it's nothing but the exact same puzzle over and over again with one of the worst screen cluttering in the game.

One or two arcanes from NW won't change a thing compared to the massiv amount of grind required. Don't tell me I'm gonna make plat with useless duplicates, we both know it's a lie. Do you really think I'm gonna make any plat with the tens of absolute trash arcanes there are ? Or that I'm gonna have any use out of it ? On paper maybe, in pratice absolutly not, not even by a mile.

And my point is the time/reward ratio, that things like eidolon have been and still are at least largely on the same level as TOB.

 

It doesn't matter that you know from the get go if your reward is a duplicate or not, it doesn't change anything that you know or not. Technically (Idk really, but the result is the same), you could say all rewards are decided at the start of the mission. When I'm going for bullet-dance, there could be a meter showing how many runs I still need until the mod drops. That would be the same thing, more demoralising, for sure, but the same thing. The kuva weapon could only be revealed at the end, it would work the same way as everything else, would it change a thing ? Eidolons could tell you at the start what arcanes you'll get, would that change a thing ? (assuming we're in a perfect world and noone would restart until getting the right loot ofc ^^)

 

Duplicate prime parts, you really gonna tell me you make a lot of plat by selling those burston canons ? Again, on paper, you do gain something yes, but in pratice it's almost non existent. Sure, you can make 10 or 20 plat from time to time with fissures, you could also get a LOT more plat by trading lich with ephemeras you already have. I'm not a market expert, but I can only imagine those are worth quite a lot, at least nowadays.

 

Il y a 22 heures, Tinklzs a dit :

In the end, the amount of time spent for the lack of reward (and RNG on reward). DE can do better, it really is as simple as that. 

They can make something be a timesink without it feeling unrewarding, and when thousands of players are all saying the same things, and giving out constructive criticism to help alleviate the bad to help the good shine a bit more, and still ignored - that shows where DE is coming from. They just want an update that will take longer, they don't even care if it's fun to do again, they just want something that wastes your time in such a way so some players won't come to the forums and complain of content drought.

 

Don't need invasions, fortuna made those obsolete. 1-2 DI/Fieldron/MM per 10 hours, vs 1-2 per chance of bounty.   Syndicates you can farm passively, but also focus on their simple straightforward missions, and fissures - we got our own reskin of that in KL.   So those who had nothing better to do but kuva farm or eidolons wanted something at least worth the time. The shame here is, two very successful games were created on this system, and were played for many hundreds of hours by myself, yet KL immediately turned me away, why?

The rewards simply aren't there, doing all that grind for a weapon - duplicate or not - is too much, especially when you can radshare for 99% of the other prime content in warframe. 

 

That's under the assumption that you're beeline focusing the KL - I've had 6 sortie's worth of rewards stolen from mine, I could kill him, I finally got his three trigger words (100% solo player here, bad net) but have no incentive to kill him because I could easily kill another larvae by mistake and start this whole system over again.   Until it's 100% opt-in, where you cannot make a mistake mid-mission and start another KL, it truly isn't opt-in for me. I've said it before, make it a quest you can toggle on/off, larvae would only spawn on kuva floods when the quest is on, and won't spawn at all when off. Very simple, and everyone benefits.   https://imgur.com/a/dpchdJ5  Incase you don't believe me on KL stealing stuff. 

 

All in all - the Kuva Lich system could  be made much better, what happens when you eventually (if ever) get all the weapons? Then you abandon it and go for the next 'shiny' thing, the problem is this system could easily have static rewards (kuva, endo other sought after resources or tradable rewards) that give incentive to continue. The real shame here is the kuva lich system could be changed into something fun instead, they'd rather keep it a dull grind.  If you like it how it is, good for you - but please don't say it's fine, it could be made better and that's what disappoints me.

I'm hungry, so I'll try to make those ones quick.

time / reward : same answer as above

Timesink : of course it's a timesink. WF is a looter, MANY are here to have something to grind for the sake of grinding, and are pushed away when there's nothing to farm, no matter how useless. We love the gameplay, but we like having something, anything new to unlock, gain, craft, whatever as a reward for our time. Knowing that I won't be done with this update in a while makes me happy, and I'm gonna be somewhat proud of myself once it's done. Better feeling than "well, I walked to the console market, bought a 10k creds BP, paid rubedos and ferrite to craft it, much obstacles, much work...". All that with a big IMHO of course.

But it's also a very needed timesink right now. It's pretty clear to me that DE are sweating their butts off with empyrean right now (anyone saying sheet like "DE lazy lol" needs to shut their trap and get a real job), I don't think cutting the release in parts was an artistic move, totally a full panic move, to try to stave off the mindless "partners".

 

Invasions being obsolote doesn't matter to my point. What I meant to say (with my sheety phone), let's say invasions never existed and were released tomorrow : would you camp in front of the screen for hours on end, waiting for that last weapon part to appear ? Would you blame that terrible game experience on DE, or would you admit you should have done some other things mixed with it ?

Same with Stalker, if he was out for the first time tomorrow, would you spend hours farming bosses and trying to summon him over and over again to rush getting his weapons ? Or would you just do it passively, and maybe doing some sessions of that from time to time ?

Sure, those examples are not carbon copy of TOB's systems, but you get the gesture. This is clearly not a cinematic quest, it's a new system added to many others, like invasions, bounties, syndicates, etc, and trying to do nothing but rushing it to completion... I can't see that being a wise move. Even more when you look at the construction of the rewards, super rare tradable ephemeras ? It makes the item actually valuable for the trading, can be worth a lot. Would anyone care that it's tradable if all of it was easy to get in a week ? That's something that'll be nice in the long run.

Kinda like the Hema farm, some are still complaining about it, sure. But IMO, it's very nice to have some things locked behind those kind of harder grinds (maybe not exact hema level at launch ^^), it gives some personnality to the thing, some milestones to reach.

 

Sortie reward stolen : you got it back right ? ok, next.

 

Move on once you got everything : yeah ? Invasions (yes the once in a lifetime potato can happen, hardly counts as a standard reward), fissures (I now have enough dukats for the next 50 baro visits and all the available primes), assassins, eidolon, syndicates, other syndicates, all bosses in the game for that matter, and surely a few other things I'm forgetting. It's not new, there are many other systems with the same problem. Honestly, I wouldn't have had a single problem with that part if you just added something like "it's the same issue happening again with TOB...". But I can't help but feel like you are making it TOB's issue only.

 

If I like it I fully have the right to say "it's fine". Your definition of FUN is just that, YOUR definition. Making the grind easier could also have bad consequences, it could destroy all form of longevity the system could have had, reducing it to "farm for a week and forget" thing, with no emotionnal value whatsoever attached to it. Now, when you get a lich ephemera, people go "wow, you actually got one, cool", but it could make those as valuable as an event syandana.

Of course the system can be improved in many ways, I'm not going against that. What I'm having trouble with are the hundreds of people that complain in such volume about menial things, most of which are made precisely to get you invested in the lich. It may certainly not have been executed with the most finesse, it needs improvements, but it doesn't warrant so much flak, no by a mile.

 

 

If we keep talking with such large walls, expect some delay in the answer ^^

peace

[AegisSiege]

Short answer? Yes, I like it.

Can it be improved? Yes, for sure.

But I like Grindy things, I know it's strange. But the actual gameplay of Warframe is fun, so the fact that I can work towards something is great. Even if it takes a while.

[Zoero]

I have 64 liches killed/converted, only because i want the ephemeras. it feels unrewarding as hell considering out of those 64, only 1 had an ephemera. 0/10 from me really

[IIDMOII]

I'm done with it. I've done about 5 or 6. That's about as much as I can tolerate.

I got a couple decent weapons and was met with a lowball roll on a seer so my current lich is totally on ignore.

It was too much of a grind for a decent weapon, let alone having to go through the entire process for a piece of junk.

Edited December 3, 2019 by IIDMOII

[Tinklzs]

4 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

Kinda like the Hema farm, some are still complaining about it, sure. But IMO, it's very nice to have some things locked behind those kind of harder grinds (maybe not exact hema level at launch ^^), it gives some personnality to the thing, some milestones to reach.

I'm fine with a long grind if the reward at the end is worth it. The fact that the weapons have random bonus chance, and have a capability of duplicates, immediately takes the fun out of it. 

4 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

Well you got lucky, and maybe I was on the unlucky side, but that doesn't take away from the 1.25% chance of it to drop

Actually, I was unlucky, 18 of the secondary before I got 1 of the primary. Still, that 1.25% is per enemy, you're killing 4 of them every 3-4 minutes, far better odds than many seem to realize. While I can understand the perspective that it wouldn't be fun, I still rate kuva lichs as being more.. unfun.

4 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

Sortie reward stolen : you got it back right

Actually I haven't. I refuse to kill my first lich until the grind is reduced more. It simply isn't fun, and with others who've killed 5+ saying the same thing, I'm not the only one.

 

 

Can we at least agree that the weapons shouldn't be random? I'd much prefer a 100% chance of getting kuva weapons in a certain order or when players rank up their KL (up to 5) the weapon goes up in % up to the max (what, 60%?).  Just.. the ability for duplicates, with all the time investment required is.. discouraging. I've played grindy games, but I was having fun when I played them.

I'm not doing KL missions to get the kuva from thralls or the lich, or the rewards from the missions the lich occupies. KL stuff has the fatal flaw that you're doing all this busywork to kill the lich solely for the weapon/epherma.    If they upp'd the rewards (like i mentioned before) where you get rewards that scale (mars is taken over instead of 80 endo you get 400-600) then that would be much much better. At least then I can farm for something and get "murmurs on the side" which feels much better. 

Right now, I'm just doing 300% more grind, for a weapon I don't care about. At least before TOB, when a new weapon I didn't care about came up, I could just build it and move on to stuff I wanted to do. Now there are some weapons I want to try out (kuva weapons), but they're behind RNG to get them, and RNG on the stats. So even if I like the weapon, if it doesn't have high % stats - then I still kind of lose. 

 

Games are designed to waste your time, I get that, obviously. However, it's when you know it's wasting your time, and it feels like you aren't getting a reward for that time/effort put in, is when it hurts and makes you question if the content is worth doing. Which is what most here have been questioning about TOB.      I don't think what I've asked for is unreasonable in the slightest.  Players have wanted scaling rewards for years, this is the way to implement it. So even after you have all that TOB can offer, you still have a way to bump up the difficulty and get better rewards for it, without needing endurance runs, and with the potential to attach more content to it down the road. The players get what they want and the Developers get a flexible system down the line to work with, everyone wins.

 

  Edit:

4 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

If we keep talking with such large walls, expect some delay in the answer ^^

There I wrote a smaller novel for ya. 

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Tinklzs

[(XBOX)TheRoflLizard]

13 hours ago, Fl_3 said:

The Old Blood feedback thread is full of ideas and improvements for the Kuva Lich system, but it's being ignored by DE. I honestly think that they think that if they ignore it long enough it will just go away.

I'm hoping it doesn't and that eventually they realise that a large portion of the player base isn't happy playing with a broken, over grindy, RNG based game mode and they finally listen to us.

I'm not going to hold my breath though. . . . . 

I will give em the BFD and assume they are not sure how to rework It and still keep Requiem crap so It will take longer. However, as I stated for Liches to be actually fun/interesting..They need to remove having to play bop-it to beat the damn thing.

As,I also stated giving them like a little spaceship you have to find the location of to finish them off in my POV is the best option. Since,It is implied Grieener are more or less clones.

[GPrime96]

82 Liches in, getting tired of Liches. I enjoy doing Star Chart stuff against lvl 60 - 110 enemies, do wish it was a separate feature because it makes Star Chart not as boring for me but dealing with different kind of Liches (from Iron Skin ones to one shotting Tonkor ones) can get annoying tedious even though i try to help with someone stabbing their Lich. Got all the Weapons, four Ephemeras, and plenty of Kuva piled up. The Missions are running dry on Players randomly so i might reach a point where i have to solo them which would suck on the speed of the Murmur/Kuva grind which is making me think i might stop before reaching 100 of them. I wonder how it’s going to be for Railjack.

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

got my second lich with a weapon I already have and I'm done. Not salty, I just have no motivation left to get another repeat weapon and have to slog through it. I hope people complain about this that it is changed because it's just not sustainable. 

[SilentMobius]

I like it, I do think there should be some notable changes, especially with repeatable rewards for Liches.

I have all the kuva weapons now and I'm most of the way through levelling/forming them to Max. I enjoyed having lv60+ mission easly accessable on the starchart, I like the Riven Fragment system.

If the Litch themselves awarded more Kuva and a few Riven fragments on final defeat/or recruiting, That would go a long way.

[Silvertap]

People this is a Grind game, complain about it is like rain in the water...