DE's questionable lRoadmap

[Teridax68]

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'll just touch down on this and ask you again. Do you really, I mean really, want a system that has gone on for 72(!!) days where you have only faced the lich 7 times in total at the time of his death in order to get something like Tech specialization added (which will likely come when liches move in with empyrean)? Yay I get to face my lich one time every 10 days! And over 72 days there cant have been much action regarding his goons either, since the video also shows a lousy 300 henchmen kills in total over those 72 days. The current system is already tedious, that system would be like spending a year watching paint dry and probably a tad worse.

I would've absolutely liked a system like the one proposed in the demo, yes (also, where are the 300 henchmen kills listed?). I would've liked a system where some dynamic enemy appeared and reappeared to challenge me, and thus add spontaneously to my playtime, rather than have me grind just to make them spawn. You are once again inventing a whole lot of stuff here, while still trying to argue from subjective opinion after all this time.

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The rest of the things, those from around 37:44 are already in the game. It already accounts for which frame kills it, which is what the abilities are based on. We have 7 different classes now based on which frame killed them. The only thing from the 37:44 out take that I want is the killing of the lich instead of the forced killing of the player. As I said earlier, if you look at the video and understand what is shown you see the exact same system except that the lich has 1 skill instead of 4, the encounter is dragged out over a time several thousands of percent longer than live while we still fight the lich the same amount of times as now.

This is a lie, given that the demo explicitly states the Lich stole an ability from the progenitor frame, which is not in the final version. This is different from Liches gaining a prefab kit based on some arbitrary elemental association to each frame (which you are also disingenuously framing as "classes", even though those have strictly nothing to do with the class system shown in the demo). 

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I rather have what we have now, with a lich taking up towards 2 hours and having prefab skill sets they actually use, instead of what seems as one skill only. Also, what point is there to him commanding a ship? It is just fluff flavor, just as when he spreads to new planets based on leveling up. It really just means he happened to expand to railjack instead of another planet (or that him hitting level 3 always makes him expand to railjack). It is the same lump of meat, he isnt making the ship he's in more dangerous, he isnt trying to hunt you down with it, it is just a tile to fight him on in a different mode. I think you would be horribly let down if that system went live, I bet you would say the same thing "it isnt what they promised!". I know I would be as disappoited in that system as in the one we have, except for me being able to kill the lich instead of getting forcefully killed by it.

This is, once again, a purely subjective argument, and claiming that giving Kuva Liches the ability to obtain a capital ship is "just fluff flavor" is itself eminently debatable. Also, the Lich does make use of the ship he's in to his particular advantage, so you are once again trying to downplay features shown in the demo, ignoring the fact that your opinion here is of strictly no importance in a factual debate.

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And do you really think it would be close to reality to have liches based on 42 seperate frames while somehow also giving them interesting kits that involve more than one skill?

... yes? It is not my job to debate the realism here, if DE did not think that feature realistic to implement, they shouldn't have promised it in the first place.

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This while also deciding which frame impacts what element you get on the lich weapon?

Where was weapon element mentioned in the demo?

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How would you balance a 72 day long encounter when it comes to loot rewards? Should he give about 1000 times the rewards in one go instead of that single weapon we get around each 2 hours? Or should we still just get that one weapon? Yeah that would surely fly with the community. There is a reason DE decided to dump the "day" system.

Or, perhaps, the Lich system could offer a different loot system entirely, one that doesn't involve giving us duplicate weapons or push us to grind for the same weapon multiple times over. That was a later addition to the system that is poorly-received to this day, because even three hours is too long a grind just to get through loot one doesn't want for most players. I would even be totally satisfied with no loot system on Liches at all; it would be enough for me if the sole incentive to kill the Lich was that they posed a threat to me or the Origin System, which was also the one thing the system was being sold on in the demo.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

You know, I thought people would understand phase 2 as the training phase since the weapons are mk versions, i.e. mk-Paris and mk-lato.

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

You know, I thought people would understand phase 2 as the training phase since the weapons are mk versions, i.e. mk-Paris and mk-lato.

You... need to rethink that.

And also re-read the names of the Paris and Lato.

[Corvid]

Would've thought people would understand by now that pre-release footage will be different from the final project for the sake of a smooth demo.

Also, things change during development. That doesn't mean DE lied (especially since they outright stated that there was a subsystem damage mechanic that had been disabled for the Tennocon stream), just that what they had at the time was different from what ended up being released. This is standard fare for the industry, as it is often the case that further development after the initial showcase will reveal that certain gameplay aspects are less viable than they would appear at first glance.

You guys are also comparing a preview that was supposed to show the overall functions and final implementation of Empyrean with its test phase. Wait until Phase 3 comes out before you start making accusations of deceit.

Edited January 1, 2020 by Corvid

[SneakyErvin]

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I would've absolutely liked a system like the one proposed in the demo, yes (also, where are the 300 henchmen kills listed?). I would've liked a system where some dynamic enemy appeared and reappeared to challenge me, and thus add spontaneously to my playtime, rather than have me grind just to make them spawn. You are once again inventing a whole lot of stuff here, while still trying to argue from subjective opinion after all this time.

This is a lie, given that the demo explicitly states the Lich stole an ability from the progenitor frame, which is not in the final version. This is different from Liches gaining a prefab kit based on some arbitrary elemental association to each frame (which you are also disingenuously framing as "classes", even though those have strictly nothing to do with the class system shown in the demo). 

This is, once again, a purely subjective argument, and claiming that giving Kuva Liches the ability to obtain a capital ship is "just fluff flavor" is itself eminently debatable. Also, the Lich does make use of the ship he's in to his particular advantage, so you are once again trying to downplay features shown in the demo, ignoring the fact that your opinion here is of strictly no importance in a factual debate. The question was whether or not DE's announcements this year were misleading; the demo clearly shows that they were, and that the features DE supposedly delivered from the roadmap did not match up to the expectations they themselves had raised.

... yes? It is not my job to debate the realism here, if DE did not think that feature realistic to implement, they shouldn't have promised it in the first place.

Where was weapon element mentioned in the demo?

Or, perhaps, the Lich system could offer a different loot system entirely, one that doesn't involve giving us duplicate weapons or push us to grind for the same weapon multiple times over. That was a later addition to the system that is poorly-received to this day, because even three hours is too long a grind just to get through loot one doesn't want for most players. I would even be totally satisfied with no loot system on Liches at all; it would be enough for me if the sole incentive to kill the Lich was that they posed a threat to me or the Origin System, which was also the one thing the system was being sold on in the demo.

The henchment or whatever they called it are in the info sheet of the lich, the same place where age, origin, encounters, levels, frame power and all the rest of it is. And what am I inventing? I'm going on the info from the video you are so fond off, it is all there. 7 total encounters with the lich over 72 days and in 72 days they've killed around 300 (iirc, cant be bothered to go check again) asociated enemies. That is one lich kill over a period of more than 2 full months, with a system less interesting than the current one cos the lich has 1 skill.

It isnt lying, it is simply seeing how the system has changed. I far prefer a lich with a deadly kit of abilities than a single skill based on each frame. And what exactly would be the classes in the video? He has non there. He has his tech affinity which is fluff and nothing else because he doesnt actually use it or approach you in a different way, he is still just a boss. Granted, I do like the setup of seeking him out in his "lair", but that is something many of us have wanted from the moment liches came out mostly to seperate them from murmur hunting.

How exactly is the lich "making use" of his ship? He is a glorified assassination objective in the RJ mission, thats it. He goes through the exact same procedure as when we attack the asteroid or ship in our current RJ. Does he try to ram us, does he try to flee, does he use the massive cannons, does he send several extra squadrons of fighters? Nope, he just sits in a room on his ship twiddling his thumbs waiting for the tenno to find him. But do elaborate on how he is making use of his ship. Also, they did deliver more than what was intended on their roadmap regarding liches, because they werent intended to come at all in 2019 according to that roadmap. Things changed between the roadmap and tennocon and between tennocon and lich/RJ releases.

So you are obviously completely disconnected about what it would take to give all liches 42 possible different skill sets. You do realize how long it takes for 1 frame to get a full set of powers? Now add the same to liches without making them extremely OP and imbalanced. When you come with feedback and suggestions you tend to want to have reality in mind.

The weapons werent mentioned at all, no rewards were afaik. Yet it would still be a thing, unless of course you want a 70+ days encounter with zero rewards in the end. They likely had the intent for Kuva weapons in their minds during the demo. Or was that another lie just as you claim RNG on RJ weapons are?

How did they pose a threat in the demo? It was a level 3 lich versus an undergeared Excal. He'd likely get one-shot if there was an actual build on the frame. They've talked alot about the "difficult" liches but it has never ever been a thing except in words. The video shows zero challenge, the live system shows slightly higher challenge (due to certain lich weapons and abilities), but neither of them are actually challenging. 

DE didnt misslead us except on one thing and that was the whole difficulty/challenge promise of liches. The rest that you claim has been missleading is based on you watching videos of work in progress. Yes it is very much work in progress in the demo, hence why it was shown several months ahead of the actual releases. This isnt some scheme that DE has planned on, that is typical for all demos, pics and whatever else a company releases ahead of time when they talk about upcoming content. It is like if people in PoE would point out how many things have changed from what GGG promised in 2019 regarding PoE2. Yes they've shown alot, but alot will also change very much. You must be fairly new to online gaming if you think DE has willingly missled you or lied to you. I'm also not sure what was special with Jovian Concord. Sure I liked the disruption mode expanding to other factions, but uhm... what was special with JC?

Also, what could DE learn from 2019. Never ever show anything ahead of time, because some odd people will accuse you of lying and missleading the with malicious intent. DE are such sinister evil masterminds!

[AuroraSonicBoom]

I mean, they overshoot every year, so that's not something new. 2019 however seemed particularly bad, though.

Only thing I can imagine that keeps happening is that they(or whoever calls the shots) consistently underestimate how much work their projects take and has a warped sense of time. I used to be that way when I was a kid, too. "I want that, and that and that and that!"

Could be something else tho. Either way, I'm not surprised. Soon(tm) is the new Valvetime.

Edit: I dont mind delays, and have gotten used to DE's overambition, but it must suck for new players who get swept along in the hype and dont know.

Edited January 1, 2020 by AuroraSonicBoom

[SneakyErvin]

13 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Would've thought people would understand by now that pre-release footage will be different from the final project for the sake of a smooth demo.

Also, things change during development. That doesn't mean DE lied (especially since they outright stated that there was a subsystem damage mechanic that had been disabled for the Tennocon stream), just that what they had at the time was different from what ended up being released. This is standard fare for the industry, as it is often the case that further development after the initial showcase will reveal that certain gameplay aspects are less viable than they would appear at first glance.

You guys are also comparing a preview that was supposed to show the overall functions and final implementation of Empyrean with its test phase. Wait until Phase 3 comes out before you start making accusations of deceit.

I honestly dont think they'll ever actually get it. It is as if this is their first ever game and the first time they've watched convention leaks/demos/videos etc.

[(NSW)FlameDivinity]

On 2019-12-29 at 12:20 AM, GnarlsDarkley said:

you mean this.

Look closely again. 

• Duviri is missing
• New War is missing
• Difficulty is missing (Liches aren't difficulty, they were supposed to be Empyrean enemies)
• Rest of Melee is missing
• haven't touched Empyrean yet, but I think we are at 2/3, so still missing some things

to conclude: DE only did about half what they promised/showed

DE needs to quit trying to take on so much in such little time. This is why Railjack and The Kuva Lich System are so bad. Imagine if DE were to somehow release all of this in 2019. They need to set their goals and expecations realistically. Unrealistic goals and expectations is the #1 lead to death of a company. Even in a pitch and wire frame, one of your main points include realistic goals. This is nowhere near realistic, it's impossible.

[fish_wet]

2 hours ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

Unrealistic goals and expectations is the #1 lead to death of a company.

Hehe, I would add that greed is even worse. Micro transactions and all.... 

Btw , player base as of lately is not doing so good at all. Not sure if you encountered this guy, has some interesting stuff on the matter :

P.S this as someone pointed out that DE is doing fine , just due to the fact that they had a lot of sales lately - platinum steam status

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by fish_wet

[Teridax68]

16 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The henchment or whatever they called it are in the info sheet of the lich, the same place where age, origin, encounters, levels, frame power and all the rest of it is. And what am I inventing? I'm going on the info from the video you are so fond off, it is all there. 7 total encounters with the lich over 72 days and in 72 days they've killed around 300 (iirc, cant be bothered to go check again) asociated enemies. That is one lich kill over a period of more than 2 full months, with a system less interesting than the current one cos the lich has 1 skill.

You are inventing the notion that the Lich had to be farmed through Thralls, which the demo does not even imply (and the exact number is 277 followers), that they only gained their specialization later down the line, and that the process is somehow objectively tedious, again by projecting your own biases. I can tell you that I personally found the Lich encounter in that demo far more interesting than anyone I've killed, but unlike you, I do not expect to make an objective point based solely on my opinion.

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It isnt lying, it is simply seeing how the system has changed. I far prefer a lich with a deadly kit of abilities than a single skill based on each frame.

It is a lie to state that Liches currently steal our abilities, which is what you did. You are now trying to shift the goalposts by claiming that you are only describing how the system has changed... ignoring the fact that the system having changed is precisely what I am pointing out, and what you are denying.

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And what exactly would be the classes in the video? He has non there. He has his tech affinity which is fluff and nothing else because he doesnt actually use it or approach you in a different way, he is still just a boss. Granted, I do like the setup of seeking him out in his "lair", but that is something many of us have wanted from the moment liches came out mostly to seperate them from murmur hunting.

Within three sentences you go from stating the Lich in the demo has no class specialization, to listing the exact class specialization you were denying. Do you not see how obvious the cognitive dissonance is in your argumentation?

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How exactly is the lich "making use" of his ship? He is a glorified assassination objective in the RJ mission, thats it. He goes through the exact same procedure as when we attack the asteroid or ship in our current RJ. Does he try to ram us, does he try to flee, does he use the massive cannons, does he send several extra squadrons of fighters? Nope, he just sits in a room on his ship twiddling his thumbs waiting for the tenno to find him. But do elaborate on how he is making use of his ship. Also, they did deliver more than what was intended on their roadmap regarding liches, because they werent intended to come at all in 2019 according to that roadmap. Things changed between the roadmap and tennocon and between tennocon and lich/RJ releases.

He specifically uses the ship to personally protect himself. It's both stated and shown in the demo, so once again, you are continuing to try to deny facts that have been linked and timestamped for your convenience. There clearly is more to that Lich mission than we have available.

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So you are obviously completely disconnected about what it would take to give all liches 42 possible different skill sets. You do realize how long it takes for 1 frame to get a full set of powers? Now add the same to liches without making them extremely OP and imbalanced. When you come with feedback and suggestions you tend to want to have reality in mind.

The issue here isn't that I'm disconnected from those design considerations, but that DE is, as I pointed out in the paragraph you have visibly failed to read. I am well aware it is a monumental task to implement dozens of rebalanced abilities, voice lines, etc. just to have Liches steal at least one ability per warframe, to say nothing of the additional cost that would represent when implementing future frames, but that's not my problem, because I'm not the one who promised such a feature to the playerbase. DE did, and if they thought that was not an idea they could implement, they shouldn't have announced it in their fake demo to begin with. Effectively, DE set themselves up to fail here, and the lesson to be learned is that they shouldn't make such outrageous promises if they knew then that they'd never be able to keep them.

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The weapons werent mentioned at all, no rewards were afaik. Yet it would still be a thing, unless of course you want a 70+ days encounter with zero rewards in the end. They likely had the intent for Kuva weapons in their minds during the demo. Or was that another lie just as you claim RNG on RJ weapons are?

Stating that they had the intent for Kuva weapons then would in fact be a baseless claim, as there is no evidence to support this, and their implementation of RNG stats is deceptive either way. To answer the question: I would in fact be perfectly okay with a 70+ day encounter with no rewards, as stated already, if that encounter presented its own stakes and intrinsic incentive to play. I am in fact more generally an advocate of implementing more intrinsic incentives to keep playing Warframe, as the finite system of extrinsic (i.e. reward-based) incentives we currently have is showing its limitations: in this respect, what interested me most about Kingpins and Liches was their status as dynamic enemies capable of creating their own in-game stakes, not whichever items they'd be bundled up with.

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How did they pose a threat in the demo? It was a level 3 lich versus an undergeared Excal. He'd likely get one-shot if there was an actual build on the frame. They've talked alot about the "difficult" liches but it has never ever been a thing except in words. The video shows zero challenge, the live system shows slightly higher challenge (due to certain lich weapons and abilities), but neither of them are actually challenging. 

So while this is not actually relevant to the point I made, the video did show a challenge in that it did encourage cooperation, tactical use of certain abilities, and a variety of different activities to take down the Lich, so you are wrong on that matter yet again, despite the entirely subjective and unsubstantiated nature of your claim. Beyond that, you are wilfully distorting what I meant by the Lich representing a threat, as I did say "to me or the Origin System": I am not asking for Liches to be difficult here (though that could be nice), I am asking for Liches to have some sort of impact on the player's experience, and presence in the Origin System that gives the player a reason to fight them. This was evidenced in the demo by the Lich having an actual, in-game presence with their capital ship hanging around in space, with Steve also stating the Lich was pursuing Rebecca. By contrast, Liches as they currently exist do nothing but tax the player on certain nodes, and otherwise do not exist at all on the map, as they're just a different flavor of random assassin. If one so desired, one could not partake in the Lich system at all, which is what players are bound to do once they've gotten the rewards they wanted.

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DE didnt misslead us except on one thing and that was the whole difficulty/challenge promise of liches. The rest that you claim has been missleading is based on you watching videos of work in progress. Yes it is very much work in progress in the demo, hence why it was shown several months ahead of the actual releases. This isnt some scheme that DE has planned on, that is typical for all demos, pics and whatever else a company releases ahead of time when they talk about upcoming content.

Except it clearly is a premeditated scheme: the demo is in no way representative of the final product, and was clearly staged, with DE admitting as much. What we were told was that DE had this upcoming version of their game that they played for us at Tennocon, but the reality is that DE engineered a piece of footage that had no grounding in a product they actually had, and pretended they were playing it live. It is therefore absolutely misleading, and in no way representative of a demo, or what a demo should aim to do. The demos closest to it would be that for Watchdogs, which promised graphics and gameplay it never had any intention to deliver, and the one for Aliens: Colonial Marines, a bullshot so infamously misrepresentative of the finished product that the developers were sued for false advertizing.

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It is like if people in PoE would point out how many things have changed from what GGG promised in 2019 regarding PoE2. Yes they've shown alot, but alot will also change very much. You must be fairly new to online gaming if you think DE has willingly missled you or lied to you. I'm also not sure what was special with Jovian Concord. Sure I liked the disruption mode expanding to other factions, but uhm... what was special with JC?

Except GGG keeps their playerbase up-to-date, and actually delivers on the updates they promise. That is why they continue to maintain player goodwill, because while they do generate hype, they do so in a manner they can deliver. Their demo of PoE2, for example, was actually playable, with independent sources confirming that the content they played was representative of what was showcased. The Warframe Tennocon demo, by contrast, was a fake, and did not actually represent any playable content. As someone who's been following the game industry for a while, I can therefore confirm that there is grounding to my disappointment here, and I find your attempt to try to normalize such deception rather disturbing. What even is your goal here? Do you really think excusing dishonesty on the part of a game developer in the face of overwhelming backlash is going to do any good at all?

As for JC, again not core to my point here, but what was special about it, for this year at least, was that it delivered exactly what was promised for it: we got the tileset that was showcased, and it played exactly like it looked in the dev streams, with the same level of graphical quality to boot. We also got Amalgams, exactly as promised. It really is that simple. On top of that, it gave us a popular new game mode, new enemy units that I'd say have evolved enemy design in Warframe, and some tasty secrets, but really, it's the one update this year that promised high-quality content, and actually delivered it, instead of dumping some half-baked release on our hands on the expectation that everything would be fixed in some follow-up phase. As such, I'd like more updates like The Jovian Concord, and fewer like The Old Blood or Empyrean, please. Oh, and if the update can also produce content that is properly connected to the entirety of the game, like the Jovian Concord's tileset rework, instead of releasing yet another isolated feature players will abandon and forget about upon completion, like Exploiter, Kuva Liches, and Railjack, that'd be neat.

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Also, what could DE learn from 2019. Never ever show anything ahead of time, because some odd people will accuse you of lying and missleading the with malicious intent. DE are such sinister evil masterminds!

Or, alternatively, just don't lie, and don't make promises that are sure to never be delivered. The problem with DE in recent years is that they've been so caught up in their hype machine it's like they feel compelled to keep promising bigger and better things to us, while in the process rushing out those things so much that we keep receiving mediocre content that fails to live up to expectations. As I and many others here have stated, it would've been much better if DE had paced themselves, not promised so much, and instead focused on delivering a smaller number of high-quality updates, rather than the larger spread of half-baked content we currently have.

One of the most consistent criticisms the playerbase has made of Warframe is that it's a severely unpolished game, one full of systemic issues that have only worsened over time, that the developers are aware of and need to take the time to fix: the game's balance is broken, the new player experience is awful, and overall players blaze through every bit of new content, including "endgame" content, because it is currently impossible for the game to truly challenge the player. The game struggles to provide replay value with its current content structure, because the new content it throws at us tends to be incredibly isolated from the rest of the game and grindy, which maximizes burnout while minimizing long-term replayability. With Kuva Liches and Railjack, players were led to believe that this would change, as both systems promised to add new dimensions of play to the entire game, tying our missions together and giving us persistent stakes and incentives to play. Instead, we got more of the same, and eventually players will abandon those features too once the rewards are obtained. This is why I feel deceived by the content we've gotten, and as can be seen here I'm certainly not the only one who feels this way.

To be clear, I am in fact proposing a way forward here: unlike the juvenile straw man you're setting up here, I and the people criticizing DE on their overhyping aren't asking them to never show us anything ahead of time again, and nobody here is actually faulting DE for evolving their design organically over time from some initial concept. Rather, the fault at hand comes from setting unrealistic expectations, which is bound to backfire in the long-term, while also rushing one's production schedule in such a way that it becomes impossible to implement durable, high-quality content. As such, what I would like DE to do instead is to set a smaller number of more achievable goals per year, and actually work on delivering them properly. Even if DE promises too much still, I would be happy if the features they delivered met the expectations they'd set. Similarly, even if the finished product is different from what was promised, I would be fine with that if it were done to increase quality, not compromise on it, and done so by keeping the playerbase informed, or better yet by actually taking in and implementing player feedback. Are achievable promises and a less rushed production pipeline really too much to ask?

Edited January 2, 2020 by Teridax68

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

You are inventing the notion that the Lich had to be farmed through Thralls, which the demo does not even imply (and the exact number is 277 followers), that they only gained their specialization later down the line, and that the process is somehow objectively tedious, again by projecting your own biases. I can tell you that I personally found the Lich encounter in that demo far more interesting than anyone I've killed, but unlike you, I do not expect to make an objective point based solely on my opinion.

It is a lie to state that Liches currently steal our abilities, which is what you did. You are now trying to shift the goalposts by claiming that you are only describing how the system has changed... ignoring the fact that the system having changed is precisely what I am pointing out, and what you are denying.

Within three sentences you go from stating the Lich in the demo has no class specialization, to listing the exact class specialization you were denying. Do you not see how obvious the cognitive dissonance is in your argumentation?

He specifically uses the ship to personally protect himself. It's both stated and shown in the demo, so once again, you are continuing to try to deny facts that have been linked and timestamped for your convenience. There clearly is more to that Lich mission than we have available.

The issue here isn't that I'm disconnected from those design considerations, but that DE is, as I pointed out in the paragraph you have visibly failed to read. I am well aware it is a monumental task to implement dozens of rebalanced abilities, voice lines, etc. just to have Liches steal at least one ability per warframe, to say nothing of the additional cost that would represent when implementing future frames, but that's not my problem, because I'm not the one who promised such a feature to the playerbase. DE did, and if they thought that was not an idea they could implement, they shouldn't have announced it in their fake demo to begin with. Effectively, DE set themselves up to fail here, and the lesson to be learned is that they shouldn't make such outrageous promises if they knew then that they'd never be able to keep them.

Stating that they had the intent for Kuva weapons then would in fact be a baseless claim, as there is no evidence to support this, and their implementation of RNG stats is deceptive either way. To answer the question: I would in fact be perfectly okay with a 70+ day encounter with no rewards, as stated already, if that encounter presented its own stakes and intrinsic incentive to play. I am in fact more generally an advocate of implementing more intrinsic incentives to keep playing Warframe, as the finite system of extrinsic (i.e. reward-based) incentives we currently have is showing its limitations: in this respect, what interested me most about Kingpins and Liches was their status as dynamic enemies capable of creating their own in-game stakes, not whichever items they'd be bundled up with.

So while this is not actually relevant to the point I made, the video did show a challenge in that it did encourage cooperation, tactical use of certain abilities, and a variety of different activities to take down the Lich, so you are wrong on that matter yet again, despite the entirely subjective and unsubstantiated nature of your claim. Beyond that, you are wilfully distorting what I meant by the Lich representing a threat, as I did say "to me or the Origin System": I am not asking for Liches to be difficult here (though that could be nice), I am asking for Liches to have some sort of impact on the player's experience, and presence in the Origin System that gives the player a reason to fight them. This was evidenced in the demo by the Lich having an actual, in-game presence with their capital ship hanging around in space, with Steve also stating the Lich was pursuing Rebecca. By contrast, Liches as they currently exist do nothing but tax the player on certain nodes, and otherwise do not exist at all on the map, as they're just a different flavor of random assassin. If one so desired, one could not partake in the Lich system at all, which is what players are bound to do once they've gotten the rewards they wanted.

Except it clearly is a premeditated scheme: the demo is in no way representative of the final product, and was clearly staged, with DE admitting as much. What we were told was that DE had this upcoming version of their game that they played for us at Tennocon, but the reality is that DE engineered a piece of footage that had no grounding in a product they actually had, and pretended they were playing it live. It is therefore absolutely misleading, and in no way representative of a demo, or what a demo should aim to do. The demos closest to it would be that for Watchdogs, which promised graphics and gameplay it never had any intention to deliver, and the one for Aliens: Colonial Marines, a bullshot so infamously misrepresentative of the finished product that the developers were sued for false advertizing.

Except GGG keeps their playerbase up-to-date, and actually delivers on the updates they promise. That is why they continue to maintain player goodwill, because while they do generate hype, they do so in a manner they can deliver. Their demo of PoE2, for example, was actually playable, with independent sources confirming that the content they played was representative of what was showcased. The Warframe Tennocon demo, by contrast, was a fake, and did not actually represent any playable content. As someone who's been following the game industry for a while, I can therefore confirm that there is grounding to my disappointment here, and I find your attempt to try to normalize such deception rather disturbing. What even is your goal here? Do you really think excusing dishonesty on the part of a game developer in the face of overwhelming backlash is going to do any good at all?

As for JC, again not core to my point here, but what was special about it, for this year at least, was that it delivered exactly what was promised for it: we got the tileset that was showcased, and it played exactly like it looked in the dev streams, with the same level of graphical quality to boot. We also got Amalgams, exactly as promised. It really is that simple. On top of that, it gave us a popular new game mode, new enemy units that I'd say have evolved enemy design in Warframe, and some tasty secrets, but really, it's the one update this year that promised high-quality content, and actually delivered it, instead of dumping some half-baked release on our hands on the expectation that everything would be fixed in some follow-up phase. As such, I'd like more updates like The Jovian Concord, and fewer like The Old Blood or Empyrean, please. Oh, and if the update can also produce content that is properly connected to the entirety of the game, like the Jovian Concord's tileset rework, instead of releasing yet another isolated feature players will abandon and forget about upon completion, like Exploiter, Kuva Liches, and Railjack, that'd be neat.

Or, alternatively, just don't lie, and don't make promises that are sure to never be delivered. The problem with DE in recent years is that they've been so caught up in their hype machine it's like they feel compelled to keep promising bigger and better things to us, while in the process rushing out those things so much that we keep receiving mediocre content that fails to live up to expectations. As I and many others here have stated, it would've been much better if DE had paced themselves, not promised so much, and instead focused on delivering a smaller number of high-quality updates, rather than the larger spread of half-baked content we currently have.

One of the most consistent criticisms the playerbase has made of Warframe is that it's a severely unpolished game, one full of systemic issues that have only worsened over time, that the developers are aware of and need to take the time to fix: the game's balance is broken, the new player experience is awful, and overall players blaze through every bit of new content, including "endgame" content, because it is currently impossible for the game to truly challenge the player. The game struggles to provide replay value with its current content structure, because the new content it throws at us tends to be incredibly isolated from the rest of the game and grindy, which maximizes burnout while minimizing long-term replayability. With Kuva Liches and Railjack, players were led to believe that this would change, as both systems promised to add new dimensions of play to the entire game, tying our missions together and giving us persistent stakes and incentives to play. Instead, we got more of the same, and eventually players will abandon those features too once the rewards are obtained. This is why I feel deceived by the content we've gotten, and as can be seen here I'm certainly not the only one who feels this way.

To be clear, I am in fact proposing a way forward here: unlike the juvenile straw man you're setting up here, I and the people criticizing DE on their overhyping aren't asking them to never show us anything ahead of time again, and nobody here is actually faulting DE for evolving their design organically over time from some initial concept. Rather, the fault at hand comes from setting unrealistic expectations, which is bound to backfire in the long-term, while also rushing one's production schedule in such a way that it becomes impossible to implement durable, high-quality content. As such, what I would like DE to do instead is to set a smaller number of more achievable goals per year, and actually work on delivering them properly. Even if DE promises too much still, I would be happy if the features they delivered met the expectations they'd set. Similarly, even if the finished product is different from what was promised, I would be fine with that if it were done to increase quality, not compromise on it, and done so by keeping the playerbase informed, or better yet by actually taking in and implementing player feedback. Are achievable promises and a less rushed production pipeline really too much to ask?

Nope, that isnt what I'm saying. I'm saying nothing regarding that the lich had to be farmed. I'm saying the interaction with the lich is minimal. In those 72 days they've encountered less that 4 henchmen per day and the lich roughly 1 time every 10 days. An extremely dragged out system with barely no action tied to it.

I dont think I ever said that they steal them.

What spec does he have? As I said the tech spec does nothing as a specialization except adding fluff, i.e having a ship in a different mode than a planet. He doesnt use the so called spec for anything. It is just story related and designs where he might spawn. If even that. I just assume his "spec" is tied to the ship, yet he doesnt use the ship as more than a lair. With a tech spec I'd atleast expect maybe the use of turrets, mines, battle control stations in the ship, exterior cannons and so on to make life a living hell for the tenno. It is as useful as the live systems "personality" trait which does nothing except add a voiceline.

He doesnt use his ship for anything, it is a simple objective taking place instead of a normal objective on the map. How exactly does he use it?

They never promised anything, you looked at demonstration fotage. You are very disconnected from game development as a whole.

Not a baseless claim since it was just 6 months ago. You know, even weapons do take time to develop, balance, design etc. And if you are happy with no loot then maybe a looter shooter isnt for you, where RNG loot is the norm.

Those co-op things are tied to RJ, not the lich system. Those things would be there even if the lich didnt occupy that specific node. The capital ship hanging around in space just took over the role of a standard objective with a regular captain just so the lich could spawn. Everything of that was more tied to RJ than the lich.

Nope, not staged, it was a demo on a convention, you know, show work in progress of upcoming features and not a final product. It shows the full scope of the intended Empyrean mode, including things that may and will change before the full release. Like every other company does at conventions unless they are about to hype something that will release then and there tied to the show. You should probably either stop looking at demos from any game, or you should maybe take some time and go look into how it mostly works.

No they dont deliver on them at all. There is a reason why several players skip full leagues. And even if the PoE2 demo was playable, it may change drastically over the coming year. Will you be there and complain aswell that it didnt live up to the "promises" made in 2019?

Ah yeah it was the Gas City rework. Dont think I've played an update as little as that one. Did my needed runs of disruption for the score, got my mats at the same time for wisp, ran ropalolyst maybe 10 times for wisp and that was it. Saint was a better release for me since it expanded on disruption and made it worthwhile to run. I think I was done with JC in two days or so while Liches kept me for a few weeks off and on, even in their bad state and the Empyrean had me playing alot for two weeks straight. Dont get me wrong, the Gas City rework looks amazing, there just wasnt enough content to go with it to last.

DE havent lied though because they never promised anything. You are just very unused to demo videos, leaks and showcases of in progress work. That is on you for not going with the times and not on them. I also cant see the unpolished game, nor the systemic issues (aside form liches). I've always had a smooth experience with WF, never had any real bugs outside of the first few days of empyrean. Balance across the game sure is poor, but that is because the players want everything nerfed the moment it is slightly challenging or takes time. Empyrean is atm the best balanced system in the game, yet people want the time needed nerfed and others want the enemies nerfed, simply because they refuse to progress or build correctly before heading into harder parts of the mode.

That is on DE though for putting the fairly vague intrinsic gate of 7 on veil when the gate should have been full MK2 gear. Also the whole "tying our missions together" thing is just you not understanding that it is still the plan for the next release and was never intended for the current one. There was no overhype by DE regarding liches or empyrean, if it was they would have shown something completely different from what they did. The demo was more of a "this is how it looks now" kinda thing. I never got any hype feelings over any of it. At most I expressed a "that looks cool" or "that could be fun". I also never got the sense that they tried to hype it.

It is not a juvenile straw man. It his my honest opinion based on people like you. If someone cant realize that content in videos 6 months ahead of their time of release may change, then all hope is gone when it comes to having interesting WIP showcases at conventions.

 

 

[Aesthier]

On 2019-12-28 at 11:52 PM, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Oh, I remember.  I super remember.  

I run through the "new player experience" nearly monthly.  I've watched dozens of people quit out of frustration with certain aspects ...

A sweet new cinematic isn't going to fix any of that.

^ My sentiments exactly.

[Teridax68]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Nope, that isnt what I'm saying. I'm saying nothing regarding that the lich had to be farmed. I'm saying the interaction with the lich is minimal. In those 72 days they've encountered less that 4 henchmen per day and the lich roughly 1 time every 10 days. An extremely dragged out system with barely no action tied to it.

So putting aside the fact that you are inventing a whole lot more subjective and unfounded judgment here, as per this:

On 2020-01-01 at 2:32 PM, SneakyErvin said:

I'll just touch down on this and ask you again. Do you really, I mean really, want a system that has gone on for 72(!!) days where you have only faced the lich 7 times in total at the time of his death in order to get something like Tech specialization added (which will likely come when liches move in with empyrean)? Yay I get to face my lich one time every 10 days! And over 72 days there cant have been much action regarding his goons either, since the video also shows a lousy 300 henchmen kills in total over those 72 days. The current system is already tedious, that system would be like spending a year watching paint dry and probably a tad worse.

You are visibly attempting to impute the current system onto demo Lich.

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I dont think I ever said that they steal them.

As per the following:

On 2020-01-01 at 2:32 PM, SneakyErvin said:

The rest of the things, those from around 37:44 are already in the game. It already accounts for which frame kills it, which is what the abilities are based on.

You did. You also claimed that the Lich in the demo didn't still any abilities at all, which is also a lie on top of a blatant inconsistency in your argumentation.

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What spec does he have? As I said the tech spec does nothing as a specialization except adding fluff, i.e having a ship in a different mode than a planet. He doesnt use the so called spec for anything. It is just story related and designs where he might spawn. If even that. I just assume his "spec" is tied to the ship, yet he doesnt use the ship as more than a lair. With a tech spec I'd atleast expect maybe the use of turrets, mines, battle control stations in the ship, exterior cannons and so on to make life a living hell for the tenno. It is as useful as the live systems "personality" trait which does nothing except add a voiceline.

This is also a lie, as the demo explicitly stated the Lich's tech spec allowed it to use its ship to protect itself. Your personal fantasies as to what you think a true tech spec should entail are absolutely irrelevant to the factual matter of whether or not Lich had different specializations in demo-world, which they did.

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He doesnt use his ship for anything, it is a simple objective taking place instead of a normal objective on the map. How exactly does he use it?

To protect himself. That's why the encounter is so drawn out. Really, just watch the demo, at least once.

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They never promised anything, you looked at demonstration fotage. You are very disconnected from game development as a whole.

Faked, staged demonstration footage, presented to the public as if it were real content, which the game's recent releases have proven it isn't. Not only is your argument here an insipid attempt to argue from repetition, the previous time I had refuted it I cited examples of other famously deceptive demos, so it is perhaps not me here who is "disconnected from game development as a whole", or more broadly the concept of honest work, as you seem to consider it acceptable for someone to sell a product on a lie.

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Not a baseless claim since it was just 6 months ago. You know, even weapons do take time to develop, balance, design etc. And if you are happy with no loot then maybe a looter shooter isnt for you, where RNG loot is the norm.

Yes, just 6 months ago... with no sign of Kuva weapons, let alone RNG stats, at that time. You are therefore making a baseless claim, and inventing a narrative here you expect me, or anyone else to believe, because... ?

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Those co-op things are tied to RJ, not the lich system. Those things would be there even if the lich didnt occupy that specific node. The capital ship hanging around in space just took over the role of a standard objective with a regular captain just so the lich could spawn. Everything of that was more tied to RJ than the lich.

The centerpiece of that mission was a Lich, so this is also untrue. Again, you're telling a rather interesting story here that seems to have no bearing on reality, or any established fact.

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Nope, not staged, it was a demo on a convention, you know, show work in progress of upcoming features and not a final product. It shows the full scope of the intended Empyrean mode, including things that may and will change before the full release. Like every other company does at conventions unless they are about to hype something that will release then and there tied to the show. You should probably either stop looking at demos from any game, or you should maybe take some time and go look into how it mostly works.

The developers subsequently admitted the demo was staged, and was a forged piece of footage rather than a sample of actual gameplay, as the actual current state of the game shows. Your argument from repetition here is as vapid as it is useless in changing how it was previously refuted.

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No they dont deliver on them at all. There is a reason why several players skip full leagues. And even if the PoE2 demo was playable, it may change drastically over the coming year. Will you be there and complain aswell that it didnt live up to the "promises" made in 2019?

Sure, if GGG pulls the rug out on their playerbase and ships a product at the last minute that doesn't fulfil any of the promises made in the demo. As it stands, they have never done so, and players haven't skipped leagues because the developers failed to honor promises made (the leagues consistently deliver content they announce, so players leaving or holding off stem from not being interested in those leagues specifically). This is why they have retained and increased player goodwill to this day.

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Ah yeah it was the Gas City rework. Dont think I've played an update as little as that one. Did my needed runs of disruption for the score, got my mats at the same time for wisp, ran ropalolyst maybe 10 times for wisp and that was it. Saint was a better release for me since it expanded on disruption and made it worthwhile to run. I think I was done with JC in two days or so while Liches kept me for a few weeks off and on, even in their bad state and the Empyrean had me playing alot for two weeks straight. Dont get me wrong, the Gas City rework looks amazing, there just wasnt enough content to go with it to last.

It is impressive how contrarian you are attempting to be here for no reason other than sheer spite. Downplay the update all you want, it still delivered what was promised, and delivered content that objectively has more replay value than Kuva Liches or Empyrean, given that the Gas City tileset feeds into all sorts of different replayable missions such as relic runs, Syndicate missions, Sorties, and so on, whereas the latter two systems can be ignored once the rewards are obtained. I'd say you are also severely underestimating the scale, as the tileset rework was a massive undertaking, plus certain mission types were redone entirely (e.g. the Spy vaults), not to mention the entirely new mode that was added (and that turned out quite successfully). Given how little time you've dedicated towards JC, or claimed to (ignoring the fact that you continue to play more JC every time you play in the new tileset), it is also quite likely you don't even know of the secrets I mentioned, much less made any effort to unlock them. What a shame...

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DE havent lied though because they never promised anything. You are just very unused to demo videos, leaks and showcases of in progress work. That is on you for not going with the times and not on them.

Bleating the same rote response over and over again will not make it any less wrong than the first time it was refuted. DE absolutely promised us many things, some of which by your admission they were incapable of delivering. They forged a demo that did not reflect any actual product, and as the examples I gave show, this is typically seen as not an honest thing to do in the video game industry. Had you even the faintest idea of the history of video game development, these would have come across as obvious examples to you too, yet your sheer ignorance on the matter shows just how out of your depth you are in this discussion, even as you project your shortcomings onto others. If "going with the times" means blindly defending game developers on blatantly dishonest behavior, and attacking anyone who dares to make honest criticism, then call me old-fashioned.

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I also cant see the unpolished game, nor the systemic issues (aside form liches). I've always had a smooth experience with WF, never had any real bugs outside of the first few days of empyrean.

I'll have what you're smoking. But really, I don't see how you can expect to convince anyone with such blatantly delusional nonsense.

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Balance across the game sure is poor, but that is because the players want everything nerfed the moment it is slightly challenging or takes time. Empyrean is atm the best balanced system in the game, yet people want the time needed nerfed and others want the enemies nerfed, simply because they refuse to progress or build correctly before heading into harder parts of the mode.

Same as above, but also the balance is poor because the developers have severely power-creeped our weapons while poorly gating our ability usage. Blaming the players for the developer's problems will earn you nothing but the disdain of your readers, and will certainly not ingratiate you in the eyes of developers who probably do not even know you exist.

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That is on DE though for putting the fairly vague intrinsic gate of 7 on veil when the gate should have been full MK2 gear. Also the whole "tying our missions together" thing is just you not understanding that it is still the plan for the next release and was never intended for the current one.

Then kindly explain how the next phase will undo the current isolated structure of Railjack and integrate it across the entire rest of the game.

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There was no overhype by DE regarding liches or empyrean, if it was they would have shown something completely different from what they did. The demo was more of a "this is how it looks now" kinda thing. I never got any hype feelings over any of it. At most I expressed a "that looks cool" or "that could be fun". I also never got the sense that they tried to hype it.

Except what they showed was completely different from what they gave us. Much as I'd like to live in your cloud cuckoo land fantasy where the demo and the live game are somehow perfectly in line with each other, reality clearly shows otherwise, and both recent major updates showed the demo was a lie. Not a "'this is how it looks now' kinda thing", an actual lie, as no version of the game ever created reflected the footage they passed off as gameplay during Tennocon. You obviously see no overhype because you have taken such a laughably exaggerated white knight approach to this discussion that you will use your subjective opinion to defend anything DE has done against all reality. Unfortunately, even now you don't seem to realize that your subjective opinion is of strictly no worth in this discussion, particularly as you have expressed it in such an obviously disingenuous manner.

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It is not a juvenile straw man. It his my honest opinion based on people like you.

... which just so happens to be a straw man, as you are clearly misrepresenting my position and that of those who have criticized DE on this thread so far.

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If someone cant realize that content in videos 6 months ahead of their time of release may change, then all hope is gone when it comes to having interesting WIP showcases at conventions.

This too is a straw man, as I had already pointed out the difference between development changing organically over time, and developers promising content they never actually intended to deliver on release. We are clearly seeing the latter, rather than the former, hence the deceptive nature of the demo, particularly as no other forewarning was given on how the release content would differ so drastically from it. I invite you to prove me wrong here, and show me where along those six months DE announced to the playerbase that they'd be delivering Railjack differently from the demo, and so in a manner that would produce the results we're seeing now.

Oh, and while I've already made my case a long time ago here, just to add the cherry on top, here is a respected content creator expressing exactly what I'm saying here, right on cue. It is impressive how you persevere in taking a position so lonely, so hyperbolic, so untrammelled by any semblance of truth, that it would make Don Quixote suggest a reality check. You have utterly failed to convince even a single person on this thread of your stance, and so because you insist upon making such asinine claims as apparently never having encountered any lack of polish in Warframe. You accuse others of not knowing video game development or the industry, even as you demonstrate you barely seem to know even the one game you are arguing on. I mentioned early on that you were transparently white knighting in this discussion, but since then you have managed to turn the practice into an art form.

At the end of the day, Warframe is known for being unpolished, which is fine, but on top of that Kuva Liches and Empyrean are notoriously unpopular because their delivery was so poor, and so in stark contrast to their presentation earlier this year. We know DE staged their demo, and we know the many, frequently unwanted differences between it and the reality we received. 2019 was the year DE deceived their playerbase, and the playerbase responded with a massive drop in goodwill and commitment. Thus, the only way to help this game grow is to give fair, honest, and constructive criticism, so that the developers may get the message, change tack, and put their game back on a positive trajectory. Attempting to smother such criticism with petulant hostility and a complete denial of reality helps no-one, and at worst stifles the developers' ability to grow from useful feedback. If you truly care about this game or its developers, you will face reality and accept that DE is not going to succeed if they continue repeating these mistakes.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Teridax68

[Lichformed]

So for starters again, I've been away for some time. About after the release of Hildryn to now for context.

But yeah, you could see the amount of increasing grind from Hildryn/Baruuk onwards, having to max out Vox Solaris before having access to Little Duck, a clear grind and a time wall compared to the Ostron/Quills.

Now I heard about the farmframe and Mod Drop Chance booser fiasco, just no. Making a problem and selling the solution outright, like c'mon you just took out the mod packs.

Looking at the weapons released during the time I was away and their polarities, yes polarities. Even one V is a godsend in the amount of grind, because usually after that one or no forma is required for a working build.

No polarities: Pennant, Quellor, Quatz, Cyanex, Komorex, Plinx, Battacor, Zylok, Spectra Vandal and some more huh.

Also a lot of the melee weapons have only stance polarities, and even then it's bad. I think we all know that affinity farming without a booster is a slog, and it's very clear that this year Forma usage has been forced on players a lot more. And speaking of affinity, intrinsic farm for the Railjack, just no.

And speaking of Railjack, what was it with those arbitrary 12h timegates, and the need to grind mining for pustrels and the Fortuna counterpart, you can get a thousand pustrels at a time in Railjack, yet it took nearly an hour to grind them from earth. And now if I want to get new zaws or anything, pustrels are a dead drop from mining on the Plains of Eidolon.

Also the Railjack weapon grind is very VERY clearly balanced for loot drop boosters, the requirements for some of the middle tier weaponry is just absurd, I could run the earth proxima, all missions in a row three times in a row and maybe afford one or two turrets without a loot booster.

The Kuva Liches are grindy, the system has been made less grindy, but there could till be room for QoL. Like giving us an assassination mission when we know all the requiems, amazing waste of time to run 5 Lich missions with the correct requiem order with no appearance of the Lich. I don't mind random element drops, but I won't be going for perfect 60% ever. Also the personality quirks are way too rare, one of the reasons that could keep the system interesting after you get the weapons you want (Maybe all of them in some cases), and now that the Lich system is opt out, there's no reason to try and get an interesting Lich due to having to listen to the same lines over and over hoping for some variance.

I don't know who is pulling the strings at [DE] currently, but it's now a new year and it's time to stop this experiment, this is getting really anti-consumer and it hasn't been the way you've rolled for years now. Just let us enjoy your game, people will still run through your content as fast as they can, but trying to impeed and timegate that will just kill off your more casual playerbase, the one that you tried to so hard to get with PoE and Fortuna. Look at the achievement numbers even, how big of a % of players on PC have even walked into the Dry-Dock, what a joke.

Currently your competition is shooting themselves in the foot with microtransactions and half baked buggy paid content, be the better one Warframe, don't test our patience anymore. And this is coming from someone who has never gotten the Despair in 5 years, I have patience as long as the chances feel fair, currently they are not as you're adding timegates to the mess too.

Sincerely, someone who has grown up with this game by now, and someone who doesn't want to abandon it due to abusive mechanics.

[Skaleek]

11 minutes ago, Lichformed said:

Sincerely, someone who has grown up with this game by now, and someone who doesn't want to abandon it due to abusive mechanics.

There is an absolute abundance of feedback like this all over the forums. I agree with the general sentiment while maybe not the finer points of your post. i feel DE has pushed players passed their point of comfort. Unfortunately, despite players outcry, I don't think DE is going to do anything about their abusive RNG and grind.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Skaleek

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken]

My son and I got Despair yesterday when Stalker came after me for killing Phorid last week. Think it's my 6th one.

As for the grind and things you talked about....it has always been this way but as the player base grew from other gamers coming in from other games where there is no grind (Halo) to Battle  Royale style games to other games with some grind, they need to do something to slow them down. Especially with last year's Content Drought chant.....

I been playing since 2014 and the game has changed and added much more while adding more farming/grinding. It's all how you look at it. 

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

Agree with you op, the grind-creep has slowly got a lot worse over the last year and rj just pushes it to a new level.

Tbh, the worse the grind gets the less likely I am to spend money in game and I've spent a fair bit in the past.

[Fl_3]

14 hours ago, Skaleek said:

There is an absolute abundance of feedback like this all over the forums. I agree i feel DE has pushed players passed their point of comfort. Unfortunately, despite players outcry, I don't think DE is going to do anything about their abusive RNG and grind.

While yes, Warframe is a grind, it's a looter shooter and for the most part the balance between grind and gameplay is in perfect balance, grind and fun in perfect harmony. That balance seems to have died with the last few content releases, now it seems that the RNG factor is more important that the actual content itself. 

I don't mind grinding for something with a 2% drop chance, but why the added level of RNG to it's stats? Isn't it enough that I'm grinding already? Do we need to stretch out the content further by randomising the stats of that drop? Is the content so feature empty that this extra level of item rarity is needed to encourage people to play it more?

I'm sorry DE, but it doesn't, I gave up on Kuva Liches because the rewards aren't worth the time that take and why would I want another Kuva Seer with an extra 5% of toxin? I've given up on rail jack because of the fact that even at the lowest levels it's not fun. I haven't reached Veil yet, I'm half way through Saturn, and the balance is so awful.

I have an open mind, I'm willing to try again when the balance pass has been made and it's been improved. But when is that going to happen?

[Vespilan]

Well, what do you really expect the devs to do?
The team wants you to put some effort into getting stuff. Timegates are much needed because without you're gonna get players who finish the content DE took a year to make in a day and a half and then hit the forums to *@##$ about how easy it was. Timegating creates a sense of progression, of work, for those who could otherwise not get it just because how far they are in the game. 
If there was no timegating, someone today could finish the entirety of Fortuna content in about 4 hours. Grind Exploiter for ressources and toroids, sell them for standing and you're done.

As for other things; What would you rather have? 
a) Baruuk /Hildryn parts locked behind pure RNG as a boss drop of some sorts or
b) Baruuk /Hildryn parts locked behind something you can progress through without having to subject yourself to ANY RNG? (with the exception of the Hildryn blueprint, arguably). 

a) is what happened with frames like Nidus, Titania, Harrow; Get the blueprint through the quest and subject yourself to horrible RNG afterwards. It took me 6 months to get all Nidus parts.

For the polarities, I have to agree. I bet I spent most of my platinum in Warframe on forma. Not to mention kuva lich weapons which FORCE you into spending forma on them to get the maximum mastery out of them.

[LSG501]

Yeah I've been saying grind is getting excessive and that 'this years' cash cow is forma. 

IMO I know why it's like it is and it's basically due to DE's own decisions to focus on the 'big additions' at the expense of everything else and so they need to find a new way to make profit from players.  I don't begrudge them making money, it's just how they're going about it...  the current grind is making me LESS inclined to spend money on the game, in fact I've refused to pay plat (even what I traded for) to get certain items because of the excessive grind....

I completely HATE the multiple layers of grind/rng introduced with liches and empyrean, so much so that I haven't been bothered with empyrean (the gaming experience wasn't exactly fun when I tried it) and I just got bored of my liches after the first one but managed to force my way through a few more until I just said nah, this one can just sit there doing nothing on mars (or is it mercury, one of them)

Yes we've been asking for 'end game content' but for most people 'end game content' is not multiple layers of grind, while doing the same thing over and over without any real sort of variation or real sign of progression other than luck of the draw rng rewards.

 

The problem imo is two fold, one is that no matter how much us long term players raise the issue, DE won't listen while they have new players coming in paying plat for instant gratification and then leaving when they realise how 'stale' (lets be honest the game is pretty stale right now), expensive or just plain grindy the game actually is.  The other is that the people leading the development of the game just don't experience it outside of their sandboxed environment with all their devhacks to speed up the grind etc so they think these excessive grinds are 'ok', that and they're not actually listening to players anymore imo, it used to be a case of they'd take notice of feedback, now it's more a case of it's 'our game tough if you don't like it'

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by LSG501

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2020-01-01 at 2:46 PM, DeMonkey said:

You... need to rethink that.

And also re-read the names of the Paris and Lato.

Sorry, mk1 paris and mk1 braton.

In regards to rethinking my statement, no. It's Warframe, the game with hundreds of weapons, mods and abilities. Battles will get heavier, more factions will join the fight, we'll have to eventually crossfire into situations and we may have different ships to use with inherited abilities. 

[Hyro1]

People in the forums: There's nothing to do, there's content drought, no difficulty. Also People in forums: To much grind, takes too long to get through content, content is to difficult. 

Basically until the player base can come as one and give solid feedback that doesn't contradict each other, then expect DE to implement changes that you don't agree with just so that they can satisfy someone else complaints

[Test-995]

29 minutes ago, Hyro1 said:

Basically until the player base can come as one and give solid feedback that doesn't contradict each other, then expect DE to implement changes that you don't agree with just so that they can satisfy someone else complaints

Yeah, there is Player faction A and Player faction B, both try to convince DE by posting their own feedback and complaint.

Pretty normal.

[GrimSinner]

12 hours ago, Fl_3 said:

Is the content so feature empty that this extra level of item rarity is needed to encourage people to play it more?

Yes.

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

I've been getting that vibe as well but I also think they're either so far removed from the game that they don't get it or they're tapped when it comes to what direction to go and what to do next. Their ideas when it came to the damage rework that they then scrapped I believe after community outcry and how they planned on introducing "echoes of umbra" are what I'd use as good examples of this.