Remove "Friendship Doors"

[Voltage]

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Railjack? You mean the mode that people have managed to solo right from the start? And the reason why we radshare the fissures is that it boosts the chance we'll get the specific reward we want, not because it's mandatory. You're more than able to solo it if you don't want to have to play with others. 

I'm sure that you were trying to make a valid point but obviously it's fallen flat. 

So you are actually trying to argue everything is all and good because you technically can solo something even if it is highly impractical and likely a waste of your time? You do not solo Sentient Anomaly spawns in the Veil, otherwise you will get a mere single shard per 3 hours, maybe two as opposed to a guaranteed 3-4 or more with a good squad. You do not solo Railjack realistically else you will most certainly not be done with Intrinsics for a long long time. Let's not mention the potential length of time without a Vidar Reactor compared to a squad running 3-5 minute Gian Point runs.

You don't solo Fissures. It is highly impractical and you are essentially wasting your time. You lose out on the entire point of the entire Relic system which is choosing from a list of drops. But go ahead, see how long it takes you to finish Kuva Liches without doing anything but soloing Requiem Relics. See how many hours you spend each Lich between getting Requiem Mods and then the Lich itself compared to every other practical player out there.

You are actually arguing that I have a point that is fallen flat because you can severely handicap yourself and still finish eventually. That is unreasonable, impractical, a bad use of your time, and just not how the game was designed in many systems.

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The door is meant to have us work together with a teammate. This forces us to make a token gesture towards being a part of a team. Bear in mind that this is only an issue for people who are playing a multiplayer game, with other people. If you intend to act like you're alone, play alone. 

And hint, nowhere did I give any indication that I don't make an effort to get to the doors asap. A lot of the time I'm the one sitting there waiting. And I'm fine with that. Because I can acknowledge that I'm a part of a team. 

Yes, that was what it was meant to do ... in 2013. Warframe has many other ways to offer the co-op experience in 2020, and in the last 6+ years, it has done way more than that door has ever done. It is a relic of the past, and it has been proven unnecessary and a failure of its intention countless times over the last few years. I actually just found some posts from 2015 asking for their removal. That was before we got Relics, Eidolons, Orbs, Railjack, Plains of Eidolon, Orb Vallis, the Kela rework, the Ambulas rework, Kuva Fortress Assault, and more added to the game.

I intend to act like a team member in public games, by carrying my weight. I have a tendency to bring efficiency into the mix, so I might exceed other players, but I am there to play in groups. Just because I am in a group though doesn't mean I should be forced to slow down for the slowest guy. In the fundamental structure of a group, everyone should have to pull their weight. If you designed general missions that removed the "friendship door" mechanic, especially from Solo mode, you would have missions where you can be as efficient or slow as you want. If 3 people are looking for Sabotage caches, I can still sit at extraction and they can look for them. If I have a friendship door though, I cannot participate until the slower player catches up. This scenario is so easily avoidable it is ridiculous. DE has proven it is easily avoidable when they removed them from Railjack right after launch.

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

To make it even clearer, I'm often more than happy to drop waypoints and go at a more sedate pace if I notice that someone is likely to be a newb, or is dying regularly and needs revives. If you have rushed to the extraction and a newb needs a revive, are you going to be in a position to go back and get there in time to help them out? 

If players are dying often, they are clearly unprepared or unequipped, and it is not my job to babysit. Players should be geared for the mission properly. If you intend to be in a squad, you should also intend to hold yourself up. Reviving team mates is important, only to a point though.

Also, if I am Nova, I can likely reach a fallen teammate from extraction as you can clear many tiles in 10 seconds. However 95% of the time, the person self revives because dying is trivial in this game as of the last few years.

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Choosing to ignore what you don't like, is on you. 

Like reasonable arguments? That's on you. I am only ignoring arguments with no substance, like yours. You can't dismiss all other feedback and imply that I am just ignoring what I don't want to hear. That is exactly what you have done in this thread for multiple pages. I am giving civil feedback instead of insulting others who provide good arguments such as not learning kindergarten stuff or calling others entitled.

I have been playing with these doors for 6300 hours and 5 years. I can keep going just fine. I will not however, agree with the straw-man argument that removing them is unhealthy for the game and that they provide a co-op element. The flow of the gameplay is objectively stunted with this mechanic, and that should warrant its removal.

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And again, most functioning members of society have found ways to deal with that issue. If your first reaction is to throw anyone who is struggling, under the bus, that says more about you than you may be willing to admit. Many of us will first try to help lift them up to our level. If you can't do that, you have the option to go it alone with all of our blessings. 

Not every moment is a teaching moment. I help players in Warframe countless times at little benefit for myself, but I won't slow down a Fissure Exterminate or a mission I have done thousands of times to "help" someone going slower than me. You cannot just teach someone else how to Wormhole with Nova fast. You cannot just just teach someone muscle memory with tilesets and parkour maneuvers. Those are acquired with time, and in a public mission, I would just like to play at my pace. Friendship doors prevent that from happening.

Again with the going solo argument. It is impractical in many cases and I will happily alt-tab at a door for 10 seconds without saying anything than do a quarter of the effectiveness of the Relic system. Instead of improving the fluidity of gameplay you are literally saying: "play even slower than the guy you need to wait up for". That isn't an argument.

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You want to be a part of a team? You want to at least pretend to act like you are instead of demanding to be allowed to afk during your public matches? 

I will AFK at extraction anyways. The door is just an inconvenience that serves no purpose in missions. As soon as the door opens, I will have taken off anyway. I don't say anything in public games, I don't call people slow, and I understand what I signed up for. I signed up for a mixed bag of players because I was unable or unwilling to get a dedicated group for a simple mission. In these cases, I know I will likely find players slower than myself and I will carry my weight until the extraction point. At the extraction point I will check Discord, the Forums, Riven.Market, Semlar.com, my Spotify playlist, Linus Tech Tips, or anything else while I wait for other players and eventually load back into my Orbiter. With all that said though, I will still agree that the doors are unnecessary in the game.

3 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Team play ≠ standing afk at extraction. 

The doors force people who are ostensibly playing in a team to actually do an activity that involves a teammate. By reminding us that not everyone is a highly skilled vet who knows what they're doing, it gives us a chance to help them to improve. 

That might be something as simple as going slowly enough to show them the way (which friendship doors do enforce up to a point), or keeping us within affinity range a little longer (also enforced by the doors), giving us a quick chance to team buff, or keeping us within range to revive a downed squad member. 

Demanding that people who don't have a problem with the way the doors work, and are ok with waiting for people to catch up, play solo doesn't make any sense in relation to why DE should give you what you claim to want. Think about it. 

Team-play in Warframe has always been completely optional in squads. Things that have forced squad requirements don't go over well. Just look at Trials and the fact DE is adding Command Intrinsics to Railjack. Doing activities as teammates has it's place in other areas of the game. That door, is not one of them. As @(XB1)YoungGunn82 already pointed out:

2 hours ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

There are other more up to date basic fundamental mechanics available that can have the same impact and also at the same time do a better job at this. These "friendship doors" are a simplistic cop out, if you will.  And still ultimately objectively unnecessary and 100% contradict the flow and style of Warframe's core ninja gameplay. 

Seriously, I don't know what to say at this point to re-iterate how poorly the friendship door performs at being what you make it out to be.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Voltage

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

On 2020-02-22 at 3:26 PM, Senguash said:

Do people really need to be reminded of that?
Do they really?

......Yes. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

I will AFK at extraction anyways.

Literally your whole argument boils down to this one entitled statement. 

[Voltage]

51 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Literally your whole argument boils down to this one entitled statement. 

I'm glad this is the only thing you could comment on by taking it out of context. 

This is what I actually meant: if I alt-tab at extraction with the doors existence, I will alt-tab at extraction without it. The only difference is, if the door isn't there, it doesn't change the pace of the mission for anybody. Extraction and this door are different situations.

Insulting other people for their opinions doesn't prove anything except the opposite of "being a good team member".

Edited February 25, 2020 by Voltage

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Literally your whole argument boils down to this one entitled statement. 

I'll admit that I've missed relic reward selections because I had to wait several minutes for players to reach extraction and I was doing something else. And that was after they had 10 reactant collected because of course I'm not entering extraction until everyone has 10.

Some players don't understand how to bullet jump, or slide to accelerate sprinting, or to dodge roll to avoid knockdowns, or they don't know the tileset well enough. And you know what? They won't learn that they are going too slowly unless a timer pops up and tells that they are taking too long.

My personal favorite is the double standard where if I expect a public group to stay for 20 waves of defense it's my fault for not using recruiting chat, but if someone wants to spend the entire mission searching for caches then I'm the jerk for wanting them to hurry up. Why can't they use recruiting chat too?

[sitfesz]

I see a friendship door with my team behind, I go into void mode and tab out to browse or go afk for 1-2 minutes. At least the second player gets mad too for having to wait for the third.

Edited February 25, 2020 by sitfesz

[AzureTerra]

15 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Glorious community. You don't need to give a reason because you don't have one.

2020 and yet there's still people defending the most ancient and unnecessary game elements. An anti-coop element in the game is being defended with "coop arguments". I must be in the wrong movie or something. Outstanding, honestly.

No i don't have a reason and that is great. Many things don't need changing just because they are annoying a tiny portion of the whine base. 

[RunningChaos]

On 2020-02-21 at 9:51 PM, --Q--Andy said:

So you have atleast 2 players and there is literally no chance of failing.

You would think that. There's times when I have to do everything with 3 ppl just standing around doing nothing.

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, AzureTerra said:

No i don't have a reason and that is great. Many things don't need changing just because they are annoying a tiny portion of the whine base. 

Just because you have negative feedback doesn't mean you're whining. Many different threads over the last 5+ years have had negative feedback towards the friendship door. DE removed it from Railjack due to this same feedback. They just decided not to apply that to the rest of the game which is a shame.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Voltage

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

7 hours ago, Voltage said:

I'm glad this is the only thing you could comment on by taking it out of context. 

This is what I actually meant: if I alt-tab at extraction with the doors existence, I will alt-tab at extraction without it. The only difference is, if the door isn't there, it doesn't change the pace of the mission for anybody. Extraction and this door are different situations.

Insulting other people for their opinions doesn't prove anything except the opposite of "being a good team member".

No. I'd started quoting bit by bit starting with the blatantly false first sentence, but I realised quite rapidly that the majority of your post boiled down to that one, extremely entitled line. 

Because let's face it, the other gems were pretty much just different manifestations of the same thing:

11 hours ago, Voltage said:

I won't slow down a Fissure Exterminate or a mission I have done thousands of times to "help" someone going slower than me.

 

11 hours ago, Voltage said:

I would just like to play at my pace.

 

11 hours ago, Voltage said:

If players are dying often, they are clearly unprepared or unequipped, and it is not my job to babysit.

 

Or the beautifully self-contradictory pair of:

11 hours ago, Voltage said:

Also, if I am Nova, I can likely reach a fallen teammate from extraction as you can clear many tiles in 10 seconds.

11 hours ago, Voltage said:

In these cases, I know I will likely find players slower than myself and I will carry my weight until the extraction point. At the extraction point I will check Discord, the Forums, Riven.Market, Semlar.com, my Spotify playlist, Linus Tech Tips, or anything else while I wait for other players and eventually load back into my Orbiter.

 

The problem you're struggling with is clear. You don't actually want to play with others. You only want to benefit from playing with others. Pretend that's not entitled AF all you want, but sooner or later it's something you should face. 

 

6 hours ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

My personal favorite is the double standard where if I expect a public group to stay for 20 waves of defense it's my fault for not using recruiting chat, but if someone wants to spend the entire mission searching for caches then I'm the jerk for wanting them to hurry up. Why can't they use recruiting chat too?

You're absolutely right that sort of selfish behaviour is also a big problem. But my experience is that if they're searching the entire map for caches, they're experienced enough at bullet jumping to not be counted as newbs at all.

The good news is that with the individual extraction option as of several updates ago, once you actually get to extraction your time with them should soon be approaching the end of the line. 

[(XBOX)Dee Dubbalyoo]

I've been playing a month now and I have learned that most pub players want to get through the missions quickly. I've also had to grind the same missions repeatedly and worked out that the reason most players want to get through them quickly is because they can get tedious, fast. Now I'm getting quicker at traversing through the levels because I want to try and keep up, because I'm learning the movement and tile sets and because I don't want to hang around in a mission that I may have to do another 10 times today. Friendship doors didn't teach me any of that. I completely understand the point of view that they become an unnecessary hindrance in many cases.

7 hours ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

My personal favorite is the double standard where if I expect a public group to stay for 20 waves of defense it's my fault for not using recruiting chat, but if someone wants to spend the entire mission searching for caches then I'm the jerk for wanting them to hurry up. Why can't they use recruiting chat too?

Totally with you on this too. I've been farming for 3rd cache drop on hive and if I forget to switch to solo I'll ignore the caches on that run and set to solo for the next. I've learned all the cache locations now but it can still take me a good 10 mins or more to check them and I don't think it's fair for me to keep the other guy waiting for that long. Might waste a few minutes of my time but it's my own fault for not switching to solo the first time.

[kxZyle]

Watching people defend friendship doors of all effing things makes me question if this community even deserves DE getting their crap together and finally doing something productive with the game. JFC

[Hypernaut1]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

I'll admit that I've missed relic reward selections because I had to wait several minutes for players to reach extraction and I was doing something else. And that was after they had 10 reactant collected because of course I'm not entering extraction until everyone has 10.

Some players don't understand how to bullet jump, or slide to accelerate sprinting, or to dodge roll to avoid knockdowns, or they don't know the tileset well enough. And you know what? They won't learn that they are going too slowly unless a timer pops up and tells that they are taking too long.

My personal favorite is the double standard where if I expect a public group to stay for 20 waves of defense it's my fault for not using recruiting chat, but if someone wants to spend the entire mission searching for caches then I'm the jerk for wanting them to hurry up. Why can't they use recruiting chat too?

That's not a double standard. In both cases you're complaining about players not doing what you want. 

[Voltage]

4 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No. I'd started quoting bit by bit starting with the blatantly false first sentence, but I realised quite rapidly that the majority of your post boiled down to that one, extremely entitled line. 

Because let's face it, the other gems were pretty much just different manifestations of the same thing:

The problem you're struggling with is clear. You don't actually want to play with others. You only want to benefit from playing with others. Pretend that's not entitled AF all you want, but sooner or later it's something you should face. 

Cherry-picking what others say to fit your argument doesn't make you right. If you quoted everything I said, it would have included the fact that I explained that you cannot help someone who is slower than you due there being a skill only the individual can get a hang of. I also explained that players self revive in many cases because it is trivial to go down. And yes, if a player goes down often, they are unprepared. That is not toxic, that is a fact. If the player was properly geared they simply wouldn't die often, and if they do go down often, it is not the responsibility of others to keep picking them up.

Please do not speak for me or assume how I play or enjoy the game. You are very wrong, and this thread isn't for that kind of discussion. I am not sure why are arguing against me as an individual instead of the topic at hand. It's honestly rude, tasteless, and still shows you don't have any counter-argument for friendship doors. Calling me entitled every comment you write still doesn't give positive reasoning for the existence of this mechanic. The door has been proven unhealthy for the game more than once for over half a decade now.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Voltage

[Zebiko]

On 2020-02-21 at 2:39 PM, --Q--Weeb said:

They have no purpose besides slowing down and letting new players catch up for a moment, which then fall way back again anyway.

Thanks.

You gave more reason to add more 'friendship' doors lmao

[Kyronz]

I like friendship doors gives the rest of the party time to catch up and gang up.

there will always be those former helicopter folks who think they win by going the fastest, if those silly folks have to wait an extra 20 seconds or so, that is fine with me.

[Above]

3 hours ago, kxZyle said:

Watching people defend friendship doors of all effing things makes me question if this community even deserves DE getting their crap together and finally doing something productive with the game. JFC

Thank you for exactly saying what I was thinking the past couple of days.

[sitfesz]

56 minutes ago, Kyronz said:

I like friendship doors gives the rest of the party time to catch up and gang up.

there will always be those former helicopter folks who think they win by going the fastest, if those silly folks have to wait an extra 20 seconds or so, that is fine with me.

This attitude is why I won't leave the extraction when someone is still collecting reactant, gathering back my 20 seconds bit by bit.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Cherry-picking what others say to fit your argument doesn't make you right. If you quoted everything I said, it would have included the fact that I explained that you cannot help someone who is slower than you due there being a skill only the individual can get a hang of. I also explained that players self revive in many cases because it is trivial to go down. And yes, if a player goes down often, they are unprepared. That is not toxic, that is a fact. If the player was properly geared they simply wouldn't die often, and if they do go down often, it is not the responsibility of others to keep picking them up.

If I'd quoted you being wrong, you would still be wrong. While a part of our speed is mechanical and muscle memory, another part is our experience with the map and the given tile sets. We know, where the possible exits are and can aim ourselves in that general direction, we know where the hazards are and can avoid them as we go. 

Newbs don't yet have that. Sometimes dropping a marker at a particular junction is a huge help for them, I know because people sometimes did it for me, and I sometimes do it for others. That's a part of what being in a team means. Our very presence on the map also helps show them the way if we're in close proximity. The doors can help to force that from time to time. Both of these points have been raised in this thread already. 

And no, players going down is not toxic in and of itself, so you can stop acting like it's an attempt to personally attack you with their incompetence. People sometimes need a hand, and that's fine. If we're part of a team, helping them is literally a part of what we signed up for, just as they have signed up to try and help us if they can. 

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Please do not speak for me or assume how I play or enjoy the game. You are very wrong, and this thread isn't for that kind of discussion. I am not sure why are arguing against me as an individual instead of the topic at hand. It's honestly rude, tasteless, and still shows you don't have any counter-argument for friendship doors. Calling me entitled every comment you write still doesn't give positive reasoning for the existence of this mechanic. The door has been proven unhealthy for the game more than once for over half a decade now.

I quoted you saying what you said, Tenno. Take a moment to calm and distance yourself from your comments, then review them with a critical eye.

You are literally demanding that they make a change to allow you to abandon your teammates, and afk the way you feel you deserve to be able to. But somehow you feel that you can talk about what is "unhealthy" in this game? 

You too funny. 

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

That's not a double standard. In both cases you're complaining about players not doing what you want. 

What are you even talking about? I would never expect players to stay for 20 waves so I know that I would need to use recruiting chat to find a group or may have to carry solo. That's not complaining about others not doing what I want, that's just the way the game works.

As for the opposite, which is searching for all 3 caches, that requires a specific build to optimize and almost no one in public groups will have it. So why would anyone expect others to wait the 15-20m while the search the entire map? Asking a player to hurry up when the mission was done in under 5 minutes is complaining now? I think you are just about as out of touch with the community as DE.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The good news is that with the individual extraction option as of several updates ago, once you actually get to extraction your time with them should soon be approaching the end of the line. 

Individual extractions only affect endless game types, not sabotage or modes that have friendship doors.

[Sloan441]

On 2020-02-21 at 3:13 PM, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

There's a perfectly good solo mode. 

Or you could stick with your team and actually play the game and not attempt to avoid playing. 

 

[(NSW)Sk0rp1on]

I’m into this. Replace them with Unfriended doors where only the last Tenno standing gets through the door and everyone else has to wear a dumb hat or something for the rest of the mission.

[IceColdHawk]

11 hours ago, AzureTerra said:

No i don't have a reason and that is great. Many things don't need changing just because they are annoying a tiny portion of the whine base. 

Shocker! People can get emotional over stuff they care about. But i wonder how relevant this is? Me whining or not whining doesn't change the counterproductivity of "friendship doors".

I'm voicing my concerns regarding this issue because i'd like to see old problems vanish and the game improve even if it's not a major game changer. And i wonder why are you even on the forums here if all you seem to be doing is provoking people because you don't agree with them? The behaviour that some of you people in here seem to be showing give me all but the impression that you're helping new people or being patient with them, when you get all toxic already just because people have "negative" feedback to say. You don't see me around calling people noobs or slowpokes or that i'm annoyed with slow people. No. Just these doors don't have to be.

Has anyone left you with 0 - 9/10 reactants in a fissure mission or why do you feel the need to just vent here? And before you answer this thread a 4th time, please for the love of humanity, put at least a small sprinkle of effort into your post and just name one good reason why they should stay or how they are not counterproductive as i've been explaining with them blocking people taking sidetasks and annoying people in the process.

3 hours ago, sitfesz said:

This attitude is why I won't leave the extraction when someone is still collecting reactant, gathering back my 20 seconds bit by bit.

Really makes you think when somebody that has played Warframe for just a month (few posts above) also realizes + understands that people usually rush through because, yes, missions become tedious and game is grind-based. I don't always tryhard missions and when i feel tired, lazy or distracted and i end up late to help somebody open the door i kinda feel guilty for making them wait even though it's not necessarily my fault because once again, i didn't put these doors into the game nor have i ever asked for them. Never ever have i felt good about them or good that my teammates had to wait for me. It's just unnecessary and in some cases can make very impatient people turn toxic too.

Edited February 25, 2020 by IceColdHawk

[sitfesz]

10 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Really makes you think when somebody that has played Warframe for just a month (few posts above) also realizes + understands that people usually rush through because, yes, missions become tedious and game is grind-based. I don't always tryhard missions and when i feel tired, lazy or distracted and i end up late to help somebody open the door i kinda feel guilty for making them wait even though it's not necessarily my fault because once again, i didn't put these doors into the game nor have i ever asked for them. Never ever have i felt good about them or good that my teammates had to wait for me. It's just unnecessary and in some cases can make very impatient people turn toxic too.

Thank you for making a great example of what FS doors can backfire.
It is also frustrating for the player(s) behind, because they see someone has to wait for them.

My friend and I did a lot of missions in a 2-man squad, cache finding as well and while I did the mission, he checked the rooms from start, and I did it backwards from extraction after the objective was complete. FS doors were only annoyances for both of us.