A potentially strange thought experiment

[(NSW)Greybones]

I’ve seen people talking about difficulty in Warframe; how for some it’s far too easy. I’ve seen suggestions for new, tougher enemies and content (like a Star Chart made for veterans or a sliding level selector)

It’s gotten me wondering about something, and here’s the thought experiment:

 

Imagine a high-level player who could jump into a low-level mission on the current Star Chart with some magical item they’d equipped to reduce the damage they do and the health they have by 90%. Is there a difference between that and starting a new Veteran’s Star Chart where enemies’ health makes the player’s weapons not as powerful and the enemy damage makes the player’s pool of health not as massive? 🤔 

For example, the low-level Grineer would take 2 Tigris Prime shots (after rivens and whatever a player would put on it, plus the 90% damage reduction), and the Veteran Star Chart level Grineer would take 2 Tigris Prime shots (again, after all mods, just without the 90% damage reduction)

 

To be fair I’ve seen calls for the AI to be improved. I’m keeping the thought experiment centred around health and damage numbers to keep it simplified.

Rewards for doing this are also not seriously considered, this is an experiment about difficulty. If it makes people feel better, when mulling over the implications feel free to slap on a Bonus Reward modifier to the Magical -90% item. I’m partial to additional affinity or credits myself

This is not a pitch for a new idea, nor is it a thing I’m saying should be implemented. This is a thought experiment where the question of “What’s the difference?” is asked, and I would love insight into the thinking of others

Edited May 3, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones

[0_The_F00l]

you dont need to have a thought experiment.

 

Dragon keys exist. You can have an actual experiment.

Edited April 14, 2020 by 0_The_F00l

[(NSW)Greybones]

45 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

you dont need to have a thought experiment.

 

Dragon keys exist.

Yes! I use them to give myself challenge. 😋 Thanks for the suggestion though.

They have their oddnesses, like not affecting ability strength. I wanted to simplify things by not suggesting Dragon Keys (and because this topic is not about Dragon Keys)

I have my thoughts on this matter, but I post this topic in the forums because I’m curious as to what others might think

Edited April 14, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones

[Krankbert]

Maybe players could also play with one hand or with their eyes closed or with no mods equipped.

Or maybe, just maybe, and I know that's a completely outlandish idea but hear me out, maybe the developer could make the actual game itself more interesting.

[(NSW)Greybones]

45 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Maybe players could also play with one hand or with their eyes closed or with no mods equipped.

Or maybe, just maybe, and I know that's a completely outlandish idea but hear me out, maybe the developer could make the actual game itself more interesting.

Easy there, I’m not looking for a fight.

Just some thoughts regarding what the differences are in the OP experiment, if you would be so kind.

Edited April 14, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones

[(PSN)Shelneroth]

Mechanically it's the same thing, perceptivly it's totally diffrent. I know that sounds stupid but there is a real world example. World of Warcraft had this with rested experince. Originally the longer a player was logged on the less xp they would recive for doing stuff. Logging off for a bit would reset this penalty. It was to encourage people to take breaks and give less frequent players a chance to keep up. Players hated it. Understandable as they were being penalized for playing the game. In response Blizzard changed it. Now players got the same xp no matter how long they had been logged on. However while they were logged off their character became "rested" and would gain increased xp for a bit when they came back online. Mechanicaly nothing had changed, all the numbers were the exact same. However all the complaints stopped and players were happy with this.

[Aldain]

I mean that's what Destiny does, basically your power scale only matters if you are below the recommended level, if you're above it you get set to "slightly more durable/powerful than somebody at the minimum level" while still being able to get wrecked instantly.

...I can't say that it makes loot or new equipment all that fun though, since nothing changes no matter how high that gear number goes.

[MPonder]

All these suggestions and ideas for difficult, even if it is for xit star chart missions, just scream how everybody is bored with Warframe, too bad DE is not listening.

[Hypernaut1]

Bring back conclave numbers!

[kamisama85]

Self imposed challenges (i.e. remove all mods, go with a single low level weapon, restrict yourself to just stealth kills or headshots, etc) are simply just not popular these days and quite a significant handful of players prefer to let the warframe/abilities/equipment capabilities to carry them through instead of honing their own 'skill and technique'. That is just how the general player base has evolved over time. Not trying to put it in a negative light, just simply saying this is where we have gone with gaming expectations in general.

I have remained as a single digit MR since beta, doing only solo play, using just a single warframe (excalibur), and I have only what I've been able to get my hands on with all the MR restrictions. I avoid using the current meta and stick to unusual setups but I am able to perform with flying colors in all the end-game content. This is just a personal choice and does not make it 'right' or 'superior'. It's just what keeps the game interesting and challenging for me. Everyone has their own way and I recommend you just find challenges you enjoy and make that your own personal thing.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Guild Wars 2 does this and it works quite well. It's called dynamic level adjustment. When you visit areas whose level range you went above you get leveled down to the highest level in the assigned range for that area, but you also get levlel appropriate rewards, more or rarer stuff, not ones players who go through the content for the first time get. It's one of the few mechanics I really liked about the game. I always hated game design based around slaughtering trash mobs for hours to get your reward, instead of fewer, more powerful ones, even if they're nothing more than glorified bullet sponges.

[Hypernaut1]

I wouldn't mind a way of scaling vet players down to take part in low level content. I don't know if it would be as simple as taking more damage/dealing more damage though. 

Would be interesting. 

[Galuf]

il y a 8 minutes, AuroraSonicBoom a dit :

Guild Wars 2 does this and it works quite well. It's called dynamic level adjustment. When you visit areas whose level range you went above you get leveled down to the highest level in the assigned range for that area, but you also get levlel appropriate rewards, more or rarer stuff, not ones players who go through the content for the first time get. It's one of the few mechanics I really liked about the game. I always hated game design based around slaughtering trash mobs for hours to get your reward, instead of fewer, more powerful ones, even if they're nothing more than glorified bullet sponges.

"I deserved that" -2cc after dismantling and selling at ah.

[OneYenShort]

5 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

It’s gotten me wondering about something, and here’s the thought experiment:

 

The experiment discounts one fact that is difficult to account for.  Haves vs. Have nots.  Aka, the computer hardware and the network ability

The worse the machine, the worse the ability to play.  You can change your settings all you want, but its a fact, machine ability matters.

[(PSN)Viveeeh]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

Mechanically it's the same thing, perceptivly it's totally diffrent. I know that sounds stupid but there is a real world example. World of Warcraft had this with rested experince. Originally the longer a player was logged on the less xp they would recive for doing stuff. Logging off for a bit would reset this penalty. It was to encourage people to take breaks and give less frequent players a chance to keep up. Players hated it. Understandable as they were being penalized for playing the game. In response Blizzard changed it. Now players got the same xp no matter how long they had been logged on. However while they were logged off their character became "rested" and would gain increased xp for a bit when they came back online. Mechanicaly nothing had changed, all the numbers were the exact same. However all the complaints stopped and players were happy with this.

^^ This!!

You can create challenges by willingly handicapping yourself, but the thought of this just feels disappointing for most people. In every game, the normal path of development leads the players to increasingly better and stronger equipment, requires them to perfect their setup, to be able to beat increasingly difficult enemies. Long time players running out of content is a real issue in Warframe, but throwing your hard earned equipment away to create a challenge is like walking backwards on the above mentioned metaphorical path. We need end game content, period. Putting a bandaid on this void of missing challenge won't solve the issue - if anything, it just makes players wonder if this means they've practically beaten the game and maybe they should try some other.

[VanFanel1980mx]

6 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’ve seen people talking about difficulty in Warframe; how for some it’s far too easy. I’ve seen suggestions for new, tougher enemies and content (like a Star Chart made for veterans or a sliding level selector)

It’s gotten me wondering about something, and here’s the thought experiment:

Imagine a player who could jump into a low-level mission on the current Star Chart with some magical item they’d equipped to reduce the damage they do and the health they have by 90%. Is there a difference between that and starting a new Veteran’s Star Chart where enemies’ health makes the player’s weapons not as powerful and the enemy damage makes the player’s pool of health not as massive? 🤔 

For example, the low-level Grineer would take 2 Tigris Prime shots, and the Veteran Star Chart level Grineer would take 2 Tigris Prime shots. After rivens and whatever a player would put on it.

To be fair I’ve seen calls for the AI to be improved. I’m keeping the thought experiment centred around health and damage numbers to keep it simplified.

So you think difficulty should boil down to higher and lower numbers here and there?

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 hours ago, VanFanel1980mx said:

So you think difficulty should boil down to higher and lower numbers here and there?

Before I answer, I’d like to know what you think first 🤔 

In this small thought experiment I provide a question for others to answer, and they’ve been doing a good job. I like reading through the responses, and they’ve given me valuable alternative perspectives.

Does this question contain all my ideas and impressions about difficulty/challenge? (I tend to use the two terms interchangeably and should probably stick to one 😅)

@Steel_Rook wrote a good topic in the Feedback section on challenge, well worth a read if you’re interested. A lot of people have pitched in with their own thoughts and musings in that topic

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones

[nickelshark]

There is a difference between making a new elite starchart and just gimping oneself.

The new starchart could and should offer better rewards and maybe even exclusive ones like cosmetic items and such. Fact is while there will be those who will do it regardless, most players are motivated by the rewards especially in a game like Warframe.

Of course this is bound to meet opposition from some players who will claim it alienates some of the players or that it's locking content behind a wall of some sort. Just look at what happened to Arbitrations. 

DE is obviously always going to prioritize the casual players because that is the vast majority of the Playerbase and there is nothing wrong with that. However I do wish I could have some fun without having to intentionally need myself or by using lower level gear like the mk-1 weapons.

[(NSW)Greybones]

6 hours ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Guild Wars 2 does this and it works quite well. It's called dynamic level adjustment. When you visit areas whose level range you went above you get leveled down to the highest level in the assigned range for that area, but you also get levlel appropriate rewards, more or rarer stuff, not ones players who go through the content for the first time get. It's one of the few mechanics I really liked about the game. I always hated game design based around slaughtering trash mobs for hours to get your reward, instead of fewer, more powerful ones, even if they're nothing more than glorified bullet sponges.

I played Guild Wars 2 years ago and know of the system you’re referring to. (great game, btw)

It wasn’t perfect; enter a low-level area as a high-level and you would successfully slaughter everything far easier than those who were level appropriate, but it was an interesting experience at the time. I’d never witnessed dynamic level scaling in an MMO before. Usually once a player out leveled an area there was little incentive to return, whether for challenge or reward, and I often wondered what problem dynamic leveling was trying to solve. Still wonder to this day.

Guild Wars 2’s dynamic leveling system planted the seed in my head of “...What’s the reason for the levels then?”. I mused over it for a long time while witnessing similar mechanics like in Destiny, and ultimately was left thinking “Well... it’s all numbers, isn’t it? The gear checks, the health and damage numbers, the levels. Numbers inflated for the sake of looking like progress, or to make a player feel challenged.” Bullet sponges? That term exists because of their numbers.

My impression is that the real difference is the options obtained at higher levels, not the numbers. Look behind the curtain of the interface and witness the numbers:

 

Theoretically, the level 10, with their 100 damage and 1000 health, fights enemies who have 700 health and deal 100 damage.

Theoretically, the level 1, with their 10 damage and 100 health, fights enemies who have 70 health and deal 10 damage.

These theoretical numbers are an extremely simplified version of the thinking that often floats through my mind whenever I play a game with damage numbers.

 

To that end, I looked for other indicators of a player who’s progressed versus a player who’s just starting out. And identified that the higher a player goes, the more options they have. The high-level has all these skills and abilities that have different effects that the low-level doesn’t have, and can approach fights much more differently. Enemies might receive a similar treatment; more and varied ways of dealing with the player.

Tying this back into the experiment of this topic, if a player equips the 90% damage/health reducer, their equipment that lets them sprint faster or reload quicker or reach farther with abilities would remain untouched, it’s only health and damage numbers that are affected, and the question remains; is there a difference between fighting low-level enemies while reduced 90%, where a Grineer is 2-shotted with a Tigris Prime, or fighting high level enemies where a Grineer is 2-shotted with a Tigris Prime, from a challenge perspective?

Rewards are obviously something else, and I should probably clarify that in the original post

Edited April 15, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones

[(NSW)Greybones]

38 minutes ago, nickelshark said:

There is a difference between making a new elite starchart and just gimping oneself.

The new starchart could and should offer better rewards and maybe even exclusive ones like cosmetic items and such. Fact is while there will be those who will do it regardless, most players are motivated by the rewards especially in a game like Warframe.

Of course this is bound to meet opposition from some players who will claim it alienates some of the players or that it's locking content behind a wall of some sort. Just look at what happened to Arbitrations. 

DE is obviously always going to prioritize the casual players because that is the vast majority of the Playerbase and there is nothing wrong with that. However I do wish I could have some fun without having to intentionally need myself or by using lower level gear like the mk-1 weapons.

What if those who equipped the Magical -90% got bonus rewards? I’m not trying to sell the idea, this is a thought experiment, not a pitch.

I’m going to clarify that Rewards are a different matter, and that the experiment deals with challenge, not incentive. Thanks for bringing up that I didn’t indicate in the OP, and I’ve made the necessary changes

Edited April 15, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones

[Tinklzs]

14 minutes ago, nickelshark said:

Of course this is bound to meet opposition from some players who will claim it alienates some of the players or that it's locking content behind a wall of some sort. Just look at what happened to Arbitrations. 

If everything is always accessible within 20 hours of installing the game, then we will never obtain a form of endgame. 

ESO, Arbitrations, Derelict, Kuva Liches, RJ all have the potential to be a formi of endgame.  Because of how diverse the playerbase is, DE cannot just put all their eggs in one basket and call it a day. Fully investing their time in ESO for example won't aid those looking for endgame if they don't like the playstyle ESO supports. 

The issues with the above game modes is, they have interesting aspects but aren't fleshed out enough to fully embrace the 'off the beaten path' direction they take. They're unique enough to stand out, but not far off enough to really feel different from the rest of the game or have a real challenge to them (in most cases). 

Also, this gives an overarching goal for new players, something to reach ultimately. While leveling in World of Warcraft for example, getting the next blue or purple item is a 'near' goal, but an end goal is to get to dungeons, then raids. Once you reach raids you either push for higher difficulties of raids or PvP. Sadly, Warframe doesn't have this - yet - but it can, and I think if we had it, the 'content drought' complaints would be far less, because people would be playing more than waiting for new stuff to do.

Furthermore, it would help DE would their developmental process, instead of making new content to be 'one and done' get all the goodies and go, it would help them making longlasting content that even after you get all the unique rewards you want to play because it's fun.

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)Viveeeh said:

Putting a bandaid on this void of missing challenge won't solve the issue - if anything, it just makes players wonder if this means they've practically beaten the game and maybe they should try some other.

And that's the issue. Even in games like Borderlands 2 even at OP 8 (before they added the new dlc for BL3) it was challenging and most importantly FUN, thousands of hours later. And even though I've beaten the game, on each character, at least twice per. I still enjoy it and have fun years later. I cannot say the same for Warframe in the same regard, due to how easy it is, and if I need to gimp myself in order to receive a challenge, then DE has FAILED on designing their difficulty, period. Which they can fix, if they keep along the path of revision.

 

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

(deleted)

Edited May 3, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones
Question answered

[(NSW)Greybones]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

Mechanically it's the same thing, perceptivly it's totally diffrent. I know that sounds stupid but there is a real world example. World of Warcraft had this with rested experince. Originally the longer a player was logged on the less xp they would recive for doing stuff. Logging off for a bit would reset this penalty. It was to encourage people to take breaks and give less frequent players a chance to keep up. Players hated it. Understandable as they were being penalized for playing the game. In response Blizzard changed it. Now players got the same xp no matter how long they had been logged on. However while they were logged off their character became "rested" and would gain increased xp for a bit when they came back online. Mechanicaly nothing had changed, all the numbers were the exact same. However all the complaints stopped and players were happy with this.

This makes me wonder about a side experiment; If the player chose the new Veteran Star Chart, and all it did was sneakily equip the Magical -90% and changed only the number over the enemies heads to a higher level, and the player had no idea that it was there and thought that enemies were just tougher, what would the player think? 🤔 

[Currilicious]

Something like this?

 

[SpicyDinosaur]

I generally, if I am helping low mr people or person, just playa support class like harrow. That way I boost their abilities rather than zooming through the content for them.