Railjack Even Worse

[Badger]

I don't understand how, but you managed to take every fun part of Railjack and make it worse.

-No choice of give/take in avionics 

-Ships still feel slow

-Boost was ruined completely 

-Enemies too easy to kill

-Void Hole ruined 

-Gameplay is overall is slow and boring 

You took 500 random people, 500 people who may have never even touched railjack before, and gave them control over the fate of the game mode. You ruined it for people like me, people who had actually played it, enjoyed it, put work into it, and could actually provide valuable feedback. The worst part is, you're probably going to contact to ignore us.

[LSG501]

I wouldn't necessarily say it's 'worse' but it isn't 'better' imo either.

 

I don't mind the weaker enemies (although I still find it daft we can't kill the enemy crewships without using the main gun) because it means I get it done quicker if I 'need' to do a railjack mission... I wasn't a fan before the changes and the changes haven't actually fixed any of the reasons why I wasn't playing railjack so....

Having said that I do find it kind of contradictory when you say void hole is ruined and the enemies are now too easy to kill..... void hole was basically trivialising the missions before hand.

 

You're right boost feels pretty pointless and the ships still feel slow in a forward motion (I'm basically running with boost 100% of the time), made even worse due to lack of it automatically disabling boost when empty. 

 

IMO the reason the gameplay is boring is that fundamentally nothing has actually changed about the missions....pretty much everything that has changed is basically some stat changes in most cases. 

[Firetempest]

29 minutes ago, BadgerAmongMen said:

You took 500 random people, 500 people who may have never even touched railjack before, and gave them control over the fate of the game mode. You ruined it for people like me, people who had actually played it, enjoyed it, put work into it, and could actually provide valuable feedback. The worst part is, you're probably going to contact to ignore us.

These changes were made internally. These random testers are there to see if they crash, and provide the basics of "I like/I dont like, because:". and are not solely dictating the future of the game. Just like Design Council, they only get to work with what they are given and DE will still only change things they themselves agree with.

 

[-Kittens-]

33 minutes ago, BadgerAmongMen said:

I don't understand how, but you managed to take every fun part of Railjack and make it worse.

-No choice of give/take in avionics 

-Ships still feel slow

-Boost was ruined completely 

-Enemies too easy to kill

-Void Hole ruined 

-Gameplay is overall is slow and boring 

You took 500 random people, 500 people who may have never even touched railjack before, and gave them control over the fate of the game mode. You ruined it for people like me, people who had actually played it, enjoyed it, put work into it, and could actually provide valuable feedback. The worst part is, you're probably going to contact to ignore us.

There is no skill ceiling in railjack. There is only logistical superiority and rarity drop valor and that's it, just like the rest of the game. This imaginary skill repository you hoard over like baby dragon's first gold pile doesn't exist, and never has.

[bad4youLT]

37 minutes ago, BadgerAmongMen said:

 

-No choice of give/take in avionics 

 

I dont understand that , explain what do you mean by it

 

38 minutes ago, BadgerAmongMen said:

 

-Ships still feel slow

 

The only thing I agree on unless I get my hands on the best engines to test it out

39 minutes ago, BadgerAmongMen said:

-Enemies too easy to kill

 

This is a problem how ? 

Enemys beeing masive bullet spunges paired with moving fast and having to use weapons thta fire projectile with travel time was one of if not the biggest problem of railjack content .

40 minutes ago, BadgerAmongMen said:

 

-Void Hole ruined 

 

It was overpowerd and deserved a nerf , instead of VH try something , all other abilitys got really nice buffs and are now "usuable" compared to their priews state 

41 minutes ago, BadgerAmongMen said:

 

-Gameplay is overall is slow and boring 

 

I disgree , veil now can be done 2-3x times faster compared to before and hte fact that your no longer spamed with hazards feels really nice and less of a mess , rj maybe slower but gameplay or rather mission progresion is much faster paced .

That poor sob who had to stay as engineer fixing everything now can actualy play .

[Steel_Rook]

Strongly disagree. The few missions I played of Railjack (before I permanently broke a pubbie's Railjack) were some of the most fun I've had in the game mode. It felt like guns actually dealt damage, it felt like we had an actual firefight, it felt like ground combat - though still #*!%ING TEDIOUS with the still inflated health pools - was actually worth fighting. Railjack Revised felt like an actual game for the first time that I can personally remember. Bugs aside, this is a drastic improvement in my opinion.

As to the condensed Avionics - good riddance to bad rubbish. That entire system was such a massive mess that it constituted likely half the reason I stopped bothering with Railjack. Now that it more closely resembles the game's mod system (which is what it IS), it's a lot easier to actually work with. This has been an overall improvement to the experience for me, personally.

[Vahenir]

I cant say i really mind the changes myself.

The avionics got merged, which was definitely needed. The base speed is faster and with decent engines and avionics you still get a lot of boost speed, its just not as essential as before. The merging of the gear should have been there from the very start and the lower hp enemies are pretty nice too as it allows more options of frame/build. The archguns are fixed as well and other options than the cyngas actually work again. Even archwings work better as they are no longer getting vaporized the instant they get hit, leaving them as a viable option as well.

So id say a definite step in the right direction. Whats needed desperately at this point however are different mission types.

[Loza03]

39 minutes ago, BadgerAmongMen said:

-No choice of give/take in avionics 

I can't lie when I say I agree with DE that the older system was just needlessly more complicated.

45 minutes ago, BadgerAmongMen said:

-Ships still feel slow

I believe that's probably a factor of the turning and the nature of space? Because, believe me, the actual speed doesn't seem to have changed too much and is still pretty fast.

One of those things can be changed (and I'd love for more 'kinds' of railjacks, including a more nimble one with a smaller turning circle) and the other is just the nature of the vast environments of space. Not many points of reference for how fast you're actually going. Consider that, when you look up at the moon it seems to be standing still, even though it's moving at a insanely fast speed.

58 minutes ago, BadgerAmongMen said:

-Boost was ruined completely 

Eh?

Drift's still the fastest way to get from point A to point B.

59 minutes ago, BadgerAmongMen said:

-Enemies too easy to kill

That I will grant you, at least on the side of a fully powered-up Railjack. However, that's really only on the numeric side - in other words, the easiest side to fix provided they do it sooner rather than later. Either undoing the health/armour reduction, or increasing the fighter levels (one of the few times that's actually a good response for something like this). In terms of their AI and design, they're still the same enemies they always were.

Crewships are probably where I'm most irked, since they used to be a process. I'd honestly be satisfied if they were restored alone.

1 hour ago, BadgerAmongMen said:

-Void Hole ruined 

It's still gathering up enemies to be one-shot by my missiles, so I beg to differ.

1 hour ago, BadgerAmongMen said:

-Gameplay is overall is slow and boring 

I put this to taste. I still like the Railjack gameplay loop. Whilst I'm a bit disheartened by the damage loss, I like Railjack, and look forward to more of it.

[ant99999]

2 hours ago, BadgerAmongMen said:

You took 500 random people, 500 people who may have never even touched railjack before, and gave them control over the fate of the game mode.

Or you could as well be less salty and not talk absolute bs.

They weren't random. They were divided into a 'random' part and a predetermined part (mostly partners). The 'random' part wasn't random either. They chose separately people in multiple categories, depending on how experienced they were in the game. Assuming there was an equal ammount of people in each, veterans had much greater representation there than in a completely random selection.

Moreover the people they chose weren't given any actual power, they were just aked for feedback (and I guarantee you, I'd be such a mess if the players could actually influence anything).

We were asked if we liked it or not for multiple aspects of the update and could additionally make a post writing down our feedback (most of the suggestions I read there were reasonable). We found quite a lot of gamebreaking bugs and balance issues which you hopefully won't experience because of the test.

So please, don't just attack people out of nowhere, not even knowing what they participated in.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Tend to disagree, think it's mostly steps in the right direction:

• While I was initially angry about having most of my hard-earned avionics dismantled (especially those zekti ones i paid plat to get), and I feared I would not be able to put most of my mods in there anymore, in the end I can mostly fit my stuff in there as before, and in the long run it streamlines the process and makes it less convoluted and future-proof as they keep adding new avionics in the future... Having three of each avionics just got confusing , especially since it wasn't always consistent (not all zekti were the best, and most zekti were too expensive to slot it). Feel like the new percentages are good enough , and it's good to be able to fit in more "maxed" mods instead of settliing for vidar and lavans because I can't afford to slot in  zekti ones.
• Can't seem to get valence transfer to work. Patch notes make it sound like you can use scraps, yet i'm not getting the options to fuse scraps into my built guns... A little annoying to add this after so long and after so many guns were dismantled over the months... But better late than never.
• Love the faster time to kill and the fact enemy ships spawn much faster than before. Wf is all about doing tons of quick missions fast, and it's fun to finally be able to run veil missions fast and not spend 45 minutes in there.
• Didn't really like the boost nerf, hopefully this gets reverted. That said, since the ship is faster overall, it does feel ok in terms of movement speed , especially if you have good engines and avionics.
• Main gripe I still have with RJ is the cost to repair RJ parts. It's still way too expensive and a huge turnoff for newer player, even though you did increase the drops and the vacuum rate, plus the shorter missions should help in that regard. Still feel you they should be cheaper to build, especially if you expect your players to build multiple ones and valence transfer them together.

So yeah, a good band-aid to fix the gamemode, now it if only could get new content because after months of playing the same mission, even if it feels slightly better to play, I don't really have a reason to play anymore.

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[Teliko_Freedman]

I just went and played a few missions in Veil Proxima.

I don't like it.

The Boost feels bad now.

The Enemies are wet tissue paper. A couple Seeker Volley, and all Fighters are dead.

The crewships, they're dead if you take out their engines. They don't even shoot back after that. Finish them off with Forward Artillery in one shot to the engines.

 

The challenge is gone.

Best they did was take out my shields, barely touched the Railjack health.

 

All solo btw.

 

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

Is this topic mostly about how you didn’t get chosen to playtest? 🤔 Please correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like you placed high hopes and expectations on the Public Test Cluster, and perhaps expected it to have more of an influence than it did or should

[Skye_Archer]

I'm not sure it's worse or slower (actually seemed faster to me), but it went from being ok difficulty wise to snooze fest easy! heck even blindfolded easy!

EDIT: I was soloing entire missions before the change, so it wasn't exactly hard before!

Edited May 2, 2020 by Skye_Archer

[Duality52]

11 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

That entire system was such a massive mess that it constituted likely half the reason I stopped bothering with Railjack. Now that it more closely resembles the game's mod system (which is what it IS), it's a lot easier to actually work with.

Not to mention that all Integrated Avionics got a 20% decrease in their total Avionics cost (Bulkhead from 17 to 13), which is something people overlooked honestly.

12 hours ago, BadgerAmongMen said:

-Enemies too easy to kill

Shooting flying tanks out of the sky, or just shooting bullet sponges (hi Wolf) is not something to define a challenge. I wouldn't dare to go back to Empyrean 1.0 again to fight these tanky Fighters again.

12 hours ago, BadgerAmongMen said:

-Void Hole ruined 

It still remains strong, but you can't just camp on top of your Void Hole that long anymore. Besides, Seeker Volley and potentially Tether are rivaling Munitions Vortex/Void Hole now.

The only thing I could agree with is how Boost is rendered meaningless outside of Vectors or Drifting. 

[xXx_D0MINAT0R_xXx]

dunno but i agree booster is completely ruined 

[Alpha_Tango]

The only thing i experienced from this revisited thingy is the goal of making the pace faster means sacrificing difficulty. That is just disappointing.

A hint is what i really want... will there be a new mode other than extermination?

So I don"t know what direction is DE going for, and it is just part 1 after all.  But if all these hyped up attempts lead to nowhere near in preparation for a new RJ mode in the future other than being a tug boat for SS. Then everything is just wasted effort because we will still be playing in the same boring Veil Proxima and the only difference is now It is easier? How is that at the vicinity of being fun? Forget even challenging because I think DE gave up on that idea already.

 

 

 

[Steel_Rook]

1 hour ago, Alpha_Tango said:

The only thing i experienced from this revisited thingy is the goal of making the pace faster means sacrificing difficulty. That is just disappointing.

Far as I'm concerned, "difficulty" is overrated. Ego aside, "difficulty" is a negative far more often than it is a positive, especially when it leads to reductive builds and reductive combat. That's all Railjack was prior to the update - use this Meta build or GTFO. Yes, enemies are easier to kill now. Yes, weapons hit harder now. And you know what? That's more fun. I always found Railjack to be a frustrating slog, mag-dumping turrets into tanky Fighters which still manage to fly faster than my ship AND barrel-roll constantly. It felt like fighting level 100+ Grineer, in that combat is "difficult" because everything has high stats, but it isn't challenging in that it simply comes down to bringing the right build.

I'm not going to go into the "challenge" vs. "difficulty" argument again (I'm sure you guys are already sick of it), but suffice it to say that making Railjack easier and allowing the use of a broader range of ship builds, abilities and turrets as well as opening up Railjack to peasants like myself is a step in the right direction. Warframe is not Dark Souls. It's a power fantasy, so expecting it to be balanced around some kind of extreme gear check just so the people who match it can feel better about themselves is unrealistic. Yes, the game is easier now, but I maintain that properly done mechanical challenge will almost always result an easier game in the long run.

I'll give you an example. Blowing the engines on a Crew Ship now not just disables its movement but also disables its guns and kills half the crew. What this means is that now a Railjack crew has the option of either splitting up to take out Crew Ships from the inside, or else disable their engines and let them sit until the Fighters are dealt with. Depending on your team size and player disposition, this opens up additional playstyles and approaches to combat. Yes, the Forward Artillery is always an option, but there are other options, as well. Railjack Revised now works and plays a lot closer to the "space shooter" that DE seem to want to make - a lot closer to your average Descent: Freespace.

There are still issues, obviously. The Fly/Boost/Drift distinction is pointlessly complex. As I keep saying - push Fly to Boost speeds, push Boost to Drift speeds and get rid of Drift entirely. We don't need Railjack Bullet Jump, especially with the forced forward-only surge at the end. That could help bridge the gap in mobility. But for everything else? I disagree. I'm finding Railjack Revised fun for probably the first time.

[TheLexiConArtist]

I have to agree with the disappointment for having all the effort being stripped away (hard-earned rare avionics now worthless because the commons became them) and the dumbing down of Avionic customisation.

It might not be for everyone, but picking the right mix of quality versus efficiency in my integrated avionics had a little of that flavour I enjoyed when I used to play EvE Online, figuring out what combinations of skills to train and mixing up all the variants of parts together to get the best outcome on my boats.

 

It's definitely a personal taste thing, I can't deny that, but I'm going to miss it.

[Nichivo]

I just want to know why the polish on certain things didn't get resolved what with a test server. I made a short video with just a couple of the more annoying things I would have expected a test server to stop.

 

[HexOmega111x]

Il y a 17 heures, Steel_Rook a dit :

Railjack Revised felt like an actual game for the first time that I can personally remember. Bugs aside, this is a drastic improvement in my opinion.

Even if it is an overall positive rework, I hope they will tweak the difficulty a bit. It is fun, yes, but there is no real danger anymore. Unless they plane to add more nodes and bring more challenging missions based on this new balance, the actual missions don't have those "moment of emergency" anymore. 

But I guess that the reason why DE is focusing on balance oriented patches since few months is to allow them to deliver futur content with difficulty scaling more easy to work on. 

[Althaline]

19 hours ago, BadgerAmongMen said:

-No choice of give/take in avionics 

I think this is the only part of your complaint that I agree with. I don't like how you can just put everything on now. Railjack had something at least resembling the power management systems they promised us however long ago, but now it's just a big Archwing with 4 people on it.

As for the rest of your points... meh.

[sorcer3r]

19 hours ago, BadgerAmongMen said:

-Enemies too easy to kill

Disagree on that.

When Railjack launched I was really disappointed how weak the weapons were against those low level enemies in the first mission. A battleship which should take out 40 fighters and a bunch of  crewships  has to be powerful. (If a TieFighter would have been as tanky as an grineer fighter in old railjack they would be still filming EpisodeIV 😉 )

It is not easier now. Just less time sink and less boring.

I would like to have more difficult stuff to do with Railjack but then we need IMO better designed missions and maybe NPC with better squardron tactics etc. 

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

19 hours ago, Firetempest said:

These changes were made internally. These random testers are there to see if they crash, and provide the basics of "I like/I dont like, because:". and are not solely dictating the future of the game. Just like Design Council, they only get to work with what they are given and DE will still only change things they themselves agree with.

The test cluster was only open for 3 days. After that, the changes immediately dropped to the PC build. I thought they would have taken a few weeks to process all the feed back from the test players. But it seems more like all they did was kept changes to what people liked and discarded changes to what people did not like.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

12 hours ago, Teliko_Freedman said:

I just went and played a few missions in Veil Proxima.

I don't like it.

The Boost feels bad now.

The Enemies are wet tissue paper. A couple Seeker Volley, and all Fighters are dead.

The crewships, they're dead if you take out their engines. They don't even shoot back after that. Finish them off with Forward Artillery in one shot to the engines.

 

The challenge is gone.

Best they did was take out my shields, barely touched the Railjack health.

 

All solo btw.

I saw videos of Seeker Volley being spammed in the Veil. Its like spamming it on Earth now. You can finish Gian Point in a minute solo. Don't even bother using Void Hole, missiles or turrets. Just spam Seeker Volley. You don't even need to be looking at the enemies. Seeker Volley chases them even if you can't see them.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Well this is what the Youtubers wanted considering all the videos they made on the difficulty wrecking them so much so they had to park their ships eight miles back behind a Walmart and throw a canvas sheet over it...

I can hardly wait when it shows up on Consoles and will reserve my own judgment on the changes... and if they truly are lackluster then I guess solo exterminates for the credits and resources to get ready for whatever adjustments come down the road...

 

Meanwhile, seriously the replacement for Railjack is Space mechs...Think of the Ropolalyst only a armored gun platform your Warframe jumps into and we then Gundam out of the docks...

Scoff all you want...but that's the next natural step I can see De saying sure to if they can't get Railjack off the ground in a meaningful way.