Discussion and Feedback on Hard Mode shown on devstream

[5p33dy_01]

4 minutes ago, Midas said:

Our community used to have a big disgust for rewards being locked behind "hard content". Trying to argue harder rewards can be trickery with them! This opinion may have shifted within the last 1.5 years though. This is why I firmly believe cosmetics only should be locked behind hm as a achievement (because it does not prevent everyone from obtaining necessary things to advance in mastery rank). Although endless resources like Endo and Kuva can be essential for players that are just reaching MR 20+ (Although I know many with millions of Kuva and Endo.) So certain players do not benefit from endless resources. Endless Endo can be useful for liquidation of maxed primed mods for platinum via trading! With Hard mode there are no new game modes, so my reward opinion still stands (We just have different beliefs then). Digital Extremes is not one for creativity in rewards and mission types.

i personally dont care what i look like, i dont feel the need to show off, this is where our views change.
nor do i have millions of kuva/endo, but i get what i want when i want it or need it, arbitrations solves both those problems.

if you read my post earlier you would see that my suggestion may seem like its the same interception/defence/survival, but its not.
it gives YOU, the players control of your desire in content difficulty, and at the same time rewarding you based on YOUR choices.
it would make the grind enjoyable for everyone

i could make a nice big topic about how the whole system would work and give extreme detail, even make it all look good, but i am almost certain it wont be implemented, so i dont feel like wasting my time on that.... especially when i wont even get feedback from DE about it...
just like sooo many other posts i have seen that are well thought out and put together, nothing ever happens with them, not even so much as a "thank you, we will consider it", or "we have read your proposal" from one of the DE staff.
 

[(PSN)One_Angry_Goose]

10 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

Peculiar mods, retooled into weapon ephemera.

Like the "crits = flowers" mod.

 

 

I like this.. pec mods have been an abandoned concept for ages and need a redesign.

Yes! This would be a great opportunity to fix those

[Avienas]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It would still not allow for more specific loot tables. Sure percent increases would be solved, but we'd still have the same damn rewards in the end, earth would still be completely pointless and they'd force themselves into a corner for the future incase they wanna update loot tables specifically for a "new" star chart.

The "tag" would also not solve other things, like accessibility of more interesting mobs that may be more suited towards more progressed players. It would also not solve other underlying issues with lowbie missions, which is the lack of density and more intricate "puzzles" in spy missions etc. Same as it wouldnt solve defense, excav and other endless missions involving objects to protect. There would be no proper scaling of those either given the group would be split between tag and no tag players.

There is also another issue with a tag that weakens you. At some point you may actually become counter productive to the group, pulling less weight than the non-tags, so you end up getting a higher reward for pulling less of your weight.

Its a completely different damn`d story when it comes to adding unique drops. Because way too much butt hurt would likely exist for them to do MORE then just add levels to enemies and add some boosted modifiers, with likely them just simply tacking sortie 3 (level 100ish) modifiers to things like puzzles and what not. Expecting them to make a bunch of new stuff, especially if they plan to ship said thing out soon is just more of a expectancy of them wasting more time on making new crap then actually fixing the game.

It can either go as a dragon-key modifier which will get highly undermined cause people can unload 100k~several millions of damage with relative ease these days so even a 60%~80% damage dealt modifier for a boosted effect would mean little. Even if this would be the BETTER way to handle it cause: Too many stages exist already, with adding more is just going to make it even more stupid and it would either be stuck to farming nodes like hydron for public or having to purposely setup premade groups to do such things, more then likely farming resources most people already have millions of by now likely. Because it would just be effectively solo mode at that point.

Ultimately, i would not be amazed that D.E. decided to go with the hard mode-very hard mode idea because of the forced to stay at home due to corvid-19 preventing them being able to access necessary equipment for working on particular content, which to expect them to do a massive overhaul on a bunch of stages and effectively make a new version of NIGHTMARE STAGES, is kind of over-reaching on what they might be limited on being able to do on some ends. Especially when it can just be given a simple modifier design like how most people make hard-mode & very hard-mode difficulty modes & could then spend time fixing the various issues in the game that demand QoL & extensive bug fixing.

 

Plus lets be honest, until enemies get around to level 80, as long as you have a proper mid-end game build, you would likely rip apart anything with relative ease, with the so-called tag system made to simulate the enemies got 50 or 100 extra levels added to them, not outright cripple your dang legs/arms. Which sadly in its current state will likely just be them adding levels to a stage and spawning an popping up another stage like its nightmare/invasion/kuva-lich stages and calling it a day for the most part, plus lets be frocking honest again...

You literally can NEVER be a counter-productive part of a team when your a Excalibur throwing out blinds on enemies, a Vauban dispensing bastilles/vortexes everywhere, causing practically every enemy on the map to get turned into a giant ball of EZ kills, same with Nidus and similar situations with Khora. That or being a Trinity who is just keeping everyone with constant damage reduction and full heals and infinite energy going, MAYBE even a ember who just sets everything on fire, fully rips off armor with 1 or 2 fire blasts and nuke level scale nukes the crap outta every enemy cause EXOTHERMIC exists for spammable 4th skill nuke yeets & energy refunds. With similar stripping fiascos could be done with Mag & Hildryn. Lets not even forget about the majesty of one of the oldest frames, LOKI, who can just straight up run his irradiating disarm augment with long range & duration and just straight up force every enemy to start attacking eachother with most of them being disarmed of thar dang weapons.

Dont even think about bringing in corpus nullifiers or infested into the mix since the former is just a cheap cop-out honestly, because the point n case, is that practically almost every warframe in the game can in a mostly literal sense, render enemies of basically any level a non-threatening factor with relative ease, regardless if they are wielding squirt guns or particle railguns. So ultimately a hard mode & very hard mode are mostly rendered quite pointless besides acting as a way to start at a higher level for enemies, IF LOOT & AFFINITY actually properly dang scaled with enemy level, especially ROTATIONAL LOOT.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Avienas

[Scar.brother.help.me]

I like to show off, so I agree with the topic. And also to have some similar elemental effects like on melee (but not too much)

[(PSN)One_Angry_Goose]

18 minutes ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

Locked behind effort? I'm not sure. Considering everything de released the last 5 years that was supposed to reward effort was nothing but a RNG grindfest. 

Luck ≠ effort

I doubt hard mode will be different on release, but we'll see.

True. Could have the different types be a guaranteed drop on a specific node or two to fix RNGesus.
Say there’s a “gooification” one, that could be a guaranteed drop on hard mode E-Prime and Oceania.

 

edit: OR there could be a bonus goal we have to complete. Something challenging, but not as bs as some rivens. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by (PS4)One_Angry_Goose

[Steel_Rook]

22 hours ago, BlackCat500 said:

I think I'd prefer ship decorations over another outrage of "omg cool thing meant as a reward for big effort is locked behind effort!!1111" and getting hard mode and ultra hard mode nerfed down to +1 and +2 levels over regular starchart levels. At least I find that less likely to happen with ship decorations.

Sarcasm aside, I agree with this. If DE are going to be adding new cosmetic customisation vectors, I'd rather they were released to the broader player base, rather than gated behind "hard content." If you want to give people bragging rights status symbols, go the route of sigils and name colours/titles, glyphs and - yes - ship decorations. Ideally, you're looking for rewards which have no other value than AS status symbols such that the players who pursue them will only ever be pursuing them as such.

Look at Ephemeras. For whatever dumb reason, DE decided to gate what amounts of aura customisation behind "hard content," and the results were predictable. People who enjoyed customisation but not hard content complained, while people who enjoyed hard content but not customisation just slapped whatever the latest Ephemera released was on their costume no matter how hideous it looked.

Don't gate rewards people want for intrinsic reasons behind "prestige" activities. It never works.

[(PSN)One_Angry_Goose]

25 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Sarcasm aside, I agree with this. If DE are going to be adding new cosmetic customisation vectors, I'd rather they were released to the broader player base, rather than gated behind "hard content." If you want to give people bragging rights status symbols, go the route of sigils and name colours/titles, glyphs and - yes - ship decorations. Ideally, you're looking for rewards which have no other value than AS status symbols such that the players who pursue them will only ever be pursuing them as such.

Look at Ephemeras. For whatever dumb reason, DE decided to gate what amounts of aura customisation behind "hard content," and the results were predictable. People who enjoyed customisation but not hard content complained, while people who enjoyed hard content but not customisation just slapped whatever the latest Ephemera released was on their costume no matter how hideous it looked.

Don't gate rewards people want for intrinsic reasons behind "prestige" activities. It never works.

I agree to a point. But, here’s the thing: hard mode as it looks right now is, like most other content, not worth it. Why bother playing it if you’re just going to get some decorations that rot in the back of your orbiter? 
No, players who put in the most time and effort deserve some unique reward they can show off. 
Maybe there can be some alternate avenue that’s still difficult, but isn’t hard mode. But we can’t rob players who’ve invested their time and effort of special rewards just to please people who hardly touch the game. Veterans exist, and we really don’t have much for it.

Plus, the whole point of hard stuff having unique, flashy rewards is that other players don’t have them.

Edited May 10, 2020 by (PS4)One_Angry_Goose

[Krankbert]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb SneakyErvin:

You clearly dont know what power creep means.

Power creep = The addition of obtainable power for the players where there is no content to support it.

 

That's not what power creep means.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Krankbert

[DOOMPATRIOT]

As long as DE don't apply the "think of the children" mentality, I guess It won't be that bad...

[just-JC]

I just reached MR 28 (got my sh*t together and finally went to farm missing prime weapons) and I'm very happy about this. I don't think this will separate the player base, each thing will have it's purpose. 

I disagree with the notion that the rewards should remain the same. Sure, I guess you can still get the specter from Rescue missions, but make it always be a Cosmic one. If the reward is a relic, make it be that you receive two or three relics. If the item has a 2% drop chance make it be 6% in hard mode. The rewards can't be the same, we need to be properly rewarded for our effort. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by JCistheway

[Zimzala]

5 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

That's not what power creep means.

How so?

Google, first hit for 'power creep definition' - "power creep (uncountable) (collectible games, video games, role-playing games) The situation where updates to a game introduce more powerful units or abilities, leaving the older ones underpowered."

Seem to me to say, give more power w/o the content to support it, since it leaves the remainder under-powered.

Another - "Power Creep can also refer to the average increase in relative power for all released content in a game."

So, we get items w/o new content, making us more powerful.

[(PSN)PoKerZ2017]

Rewards: Kuva, Void Fissures, Built Forma, Boosted ressources 

Enemies: All enemy types regardless of the planet and tile + an increased amount of the enemies that barely see any use (Manics, Manic Bombards, Nightwatch Grineer, Railjack Grineer, Fortuna Corpus, Nightwave Infested etc.)

Feel free to add ideas or let me know what you guys think! 

[Sevek7]

6 hours ago, 5p33dy_01 said:

slow nova in survival is just extremely annoying, not only causes problems with life support, forces people to run around trying to find enemies to kill, but also makes my nekros useless, since there is no corpses to get life support.

This question has been resolved years ago. Nova's 4 does not prevent desecrate from working! Nekros and Nova work fine together 🙂

6 hours ago, 5p33dy_01 said:

with any of these suggestions, they need to implement a few features with one to penalize leavers (maybe use Dota 2's system)
mission abandon penalty where you can not join that mission for something like 5min, then 20min, then 60min, then 3 hours etc

If I recall correctly, the video does mention something like a resource cost or a key system for starting the mission, that you don't get back if you abort. In any case, of course a punishment is needed in any of these cases to prevent people from just aborting until they get a loadout that trivializes everything!

6 hours ago, 5p33dy_01 said:

but my point is, we dont need "Hard Mode", i believe we just need a mission manager like i have suggested, why, because it makes the game customizable to a huge degree that even the veterans could have a hard time with and entertaining.

I like your idea! I would definitely play with trading handicaps for various boosts and rewards. Definitely would be to my liking 🙂

5 hours ago, 5p33dy_01 said:

i am pretty sure the case is almost NEVER "Damn, I need to get better!"... it almost ALWAYS has to be someone/something elses fault.

good examples, people complain about MR 9 and MR 19 tests being too dificult, its NEVER "Damn, I need to get better!", its ALWAYS the test is too dificult and needs adjusting, yet i go in and cheese both of them with starting gear (excalibur, skana and no mods).

Don't let a vocal minority on the forums convince you that the majority have this mentality! 90% of players I have spoken with have stated they're sad that difficult content gets nerfed to the ground every time. I'm sure that this 90% majority didn't make posts about the mastery rank tests, instead they practiced until they mastered the skills necessary. But, a 10% minority posting in large volumes on the forums is enough to fool anyone!

5 hours ago, 5p33dy_01 said:

my point is, if you can not control the power you have, to suit your enjoyment, you will never be happy, no matter what the game provides, since your mind will just blame it on someone/something else

I don't really understand this part. Of course I can control the power I have by removing mods, not using operator, etc... "you will never be happy"...? I'm already happy with the game! I find PvE pretty mindless but still entertaining, and I play conclave when I want something exciting and challenging. No complaints from me (except conclave bugs and exploits that are neglected) but DE said they want to make challenge in PvE also, so I made a suggestion. I don't understand what logic led you to "always blame someone/something else." I can speak only for myself, but when I get beaten in conclave, for example, I tend to think "Ah, I need to work on my aim!" So clearly the mentality you suggest is prevalent does not apply to me, and I'm not special in any way so I suspect it doesn't apply to most!

5 hours ago, 5p33dy_01 said:

if you want to use all your equipment, you can throw on dragon keys too.. there is nothing the game can do that it doesnt already do to satisfy your requirements, if you can not control them on your own, it wont matter what the game has or doesnt. you are just looking for someone/something else to blame.

This seems like a repeated paragraph with slightly different words 🙂

 

[_Schokolade_]

right now we have strongest and weakness for enemies however with hardmode becoming a thing i believe all or at all special enemies should have a critical weakness where that damage type that is deal to them does like 10x more damage and it is not mitigated by armor or damage type resistances. These weaknesses instead of being damage types it could be weapon type weaknesses.

Example:

Heavy Gunner - Critical weakness Shotguns

Bombard - Critical weakness Beam weapons (so like the Spectra, Phage etc.)

Bursa - Critical weakness Heavy Melee

 

This would add a level of complexity that warframe doesn't have when it comes to choosing the right weapon. Right now people all just pull the best OP weapon at the time. This should only affect hardmode because this concept requires players to have lots of weapon slots and those without my feel like its a pay to play gate.

I'm recommending this just because i fear there will be so much armor (even with the changes) just about every weapon that isn't the currently best weapon will be completely useless.

[Jarriaga]

1 minute ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Agree 100%...

Possibly one of the worst ideas ever....

Power creep is already a problem in Warframe...now players will make builds for 150+ level enemies and run everything with those builds.

Next content release will be "easy" because enemies won't be at level 150+ and the boss won't be 150+...

But yes..."finally...this is the greatest thing ever..."

I don't think you know what "power creep" is, or you are being intentionally obtuse about it.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

He just doesnt know what power creep actually is.

Feels like it was the word of the day on his portion sized cereal box.

Agreed.

[just-JC]

Do the people at lower MR realize that one day they will reach MR 28/29 and have nothing in Warframe that is a challenge as well? Complaining about a hard mode makes no sense, the game needs something like this. Every attempt to do something like this (Elite Sanctuary Onslaught, Arbitration) was somewhat a failure. ESO you only go to rank weapons and Arbitration is too restrictive to be fun (at least to me since you need to bring a tank build).

"Power creep" or whatever y'all is referencing as a problem only exists because we don't have a option to do something challenging like other games have (Destiny 2 is a good example of options when it comes to doing a mission). I'm already running builds for level 150+ enemies, so that boat has sailed a long time ago. And the next content release doesn't need to be 150+, but having the option to run it with 150+ would be fun. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by JCistheway

[Jarriaga]

35 minutes ago, JCistheway said:

Do the people at lower MR realize that one day they will reach MR 28/29 and have nothing in Warframe that is a challenge as well?

They don't. Or at least, they don't expect to stay long enough for that to happen. Since it's not their problem, it must absolutely be veteran player entitlement and insatiable content demands. There is no other possible reason.

A few months ago I made that point when DE introduced the Lua lens with no equivalent reward for those who already completed their focus farm. It was a new reward aimed squarely at newer players, with no veteran equivalent. I explicitly pointed out that new players can eventually become veterans and access the same content and rewards, while veterans can not become new players because even if they delete their profile and start over, they retain the experience and know what to do.

The common response I got was to go away and move on from the game. That it was my own fault that I've played the game to completion.

I also got similar responses when I completed my Kuva Lich farm back in November. 

The disdain, disrespect, contempt and vitriol in this community towards veteran players is similar to "OK boomer" sentiments, in which you are not allowed to voice long-term concerns because it's not a problem for newer players, and the newer generation is the priority. Just go away they say.

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Jarriaga

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

54 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Agree 100%...

Possibly one of the worst ideas ever....

Power creep is already a problem in Warframe...now players will make builds for 150+ level enemies and run everything with those builds.

Next content release will be "easy" because enemies won't be at level 150+ and the boss won't be 150+...

But yes..."finally...this is the greatest thing ever..."

Ah I get it, you're just a massive troll. Don't get the concept of "easy" and "hard" into it, this game is a massive joke in terms of difficulty and we all know it, with or without this mystical power creep you're talking about.

[just-JC]

18 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

A few months ago I made that point when DE introduced the Lua lens with no equivalent reward for those who already completed their focus farm. It was a new reward aimed squarely at newer players, with no veteran equivalent. I explicitly pointed out that new players can eventually become veterans and access the same content and rewards, while veterans can not become new players because even if they delete their profile and start over, they retain the experience and know what to do.

The common response I got was to go away and move on from the game. That it was my own fault that I've played the game to completion.

I understand your point, you worked hard to farm focus to max out your three, but I don't agree with the sentiment of "if I worked hard everyone should work hard as well". Focus farming is a chore and Lua Lens make it tolerable. Although it feels unfair for new players to have access to tools that facilitate the farm when veterans didn't, we can't be mad that they are being add. They are necessary and should have existed from the start, it gives people options to a system that is grindier for no reason.

What we can demand, for example, is DE to expand Focus threes if they want to release Lua Lens, to add new weapons and mechanics to Leeches when they add Valence Fusion, etc, not ask them to punish new players by not releasing easier tools to farm. I think Scott said he was thinking of adding new stuff to the Focus system, so I think having Lua Lens isn't altogether bad. Nevertheless, I don't think this was what you meant, you probably just want content for veterans when DE makes it easier to new players, when we didn't have the same privilege. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by JCistheway
Misspellings

[Jarriaga]

5 minutes ago, JCistheway said:

I understand your point, you worked hard to farm focus to max out your three, but I don't agree with the sentiment of "if I worked hard everyone should work hard as well". Focus farming is a shore and Lua Lens make it tolerable. Although it feels unfair for new players to have access to tools that facilitate the farm when veterans didn't, we can't be mad that they are being add. They are necessary and should exist from the start, it gives people options to a system that is a grindier for no reason. What we can demand, for example, is DE to expand Focus threes if they want to release Lua Lens, to add new weapons and mechanics to Leeches, etc, not ask them to punish new players by not releasing easier tools to farm. I think Scott said he was thinking of adding new stuff to the Focus system, so I think having Lua Lens isn't altogether bad. Nevertheless, I don't think this was what you meant, you probably just want content for veterans when DE makes it easier to new players, when we didn't had the same privilege. 

I linked the thread for context. If that's what you got then I don't think you reviewed it if that's what you took from it.

The point of my thread and observation was not that newer players should have gone through the same grind, but rather that they are getting a new reward item exclusively for them that amounts to no reward at all if you are a veteran. This was not an expectation or even an implication.

The point was that why was only 1 reward for them being added rather than 2 rewards, one of them and one for us. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Jarriaga

[White_Matter]

In before "hard mode too hard please nerf xD"

Seriously though, pretty sure that's going to happen.

 

I haven't watched the DEV stream so I'm wondering is there additional rewards for playing game on "hard" difficulty ?

I hope there is because otheriwse it'll be another ill regulated challenge/reward dynamic.

[just-JC]

7 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I linked the thread for context. If that's what you got then I don't think you reviewed it if that's what you took from it.

The point of my thread and observation was not that newer players should have gone through the same grind, but rather that they are getting a new reward item exclusively for them that amounts to no reward at all if you are a veteran. This was not an expectation or even an implication.

The point was that why was only 1 reward for them being added rather than 2 rewards, one of them and one for us. 

I understand that. I don't have a problem If they want to make a content that is geared towards new players/casual players, but they need to start making alternatives for veteran players and I think that's how hard mode can do that. Having to play low level missions just so that Warframe doesn't become a "hard game" is not my idea of fairness, so if they introduce this new mechanic to the game to it's full potential I think most of our problems would be solved. It's like Sanctuary Onslaught and the Elite version, each one has it's own purpose to different players and both offer rewards accordingly (although captura scenes needs to disappear from reward tables everywhere in the game). If they can do that to every piece of content from now own I think the problems that you mentioned would be gone because each player would have options that suit their needs and limitations.  

[Felsagger]

32 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

In before "hard mode too hard please nerf xD"

Seriously though, pretty sure that's going to happen.

 

I haven't watched the DEV stream so I'm wondering is there additional rewards for playing game on "hard" difficulty ?

I hope there is because otheriwse it'll be another ill regulated challenge/reward dynamic.

True. 

There are two ways justifying the difficulty increase. 

1. Extrinsic, player plays because is fun. This idea applies to A.I. or military accuracy, Enemy behavior, Enemy weapons, Enemy types. 

or

2. Intrinsic, player plays because he wants a certain reward. The idea of rewards is an fundamental incentive in a game that gravitates around looting. Without good rewards this becomes a waste of time. 

A combination of both is fundamental for motivation. The increase of difficulty is done giving a better lasting experience while the daily farmer farms. If the grind and farming goes boring then the player leaves the game or put it aside. 

The orgasm of chasing big numbers is one of the best acts of pure stupidity when such thing is used as a bragging right. Games must provide a reward seeking 12 hours runs other than just large red numbers. There are people who enjoys this practice but such practice is dull and silly giving nothing in return at all. We see the same basic enemy with heavier shield, health and armor packing more damage output of his weapon throughout those 12 hours. 

If DE implements such solution, such solution takes few minutes changing few numbers on the enemies and adding an alternate selection to the star map mission chosen by the player. It should be much more than just an increase on these parameters. 

Just saying. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Felsagger

[kevoisvevo]

9 minutes ago, GreyDeath789 said:

Or...shockingly...the position held by others is not the position held by some people...and thus...

Agree 100%...

Possibly one of the worst ideas ever....

Power creep is already a problem in Warframe...now players will make builds for 150+ level enemies and run everything with those builds.

Next content release will be "easy" because enemies won't be at level 150+ and the boss won't be 150+...

But yes..."finally...this is the greatest thing ever..."

Now you are just copy pasting everything like a parrot. Pretty sure you are trolling in the thread lol.

[Caliboom]

I hope they bring Nightwatch enemies to hard mode, would make the missions feel unique.