The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[(NSW)MoonlightSerenade]

Perhaps open a test server for players before releasing a system that is apparently not ready to launch.

[ENGINEEEEER]

30 minutes ago, Jim22 said:

Then why nerf something if the numbers aren't done? 

So people can set their expectations and prepare or not prepare accordingly. Nerfing it on release would be much more abrupt. 

[Altair_Flame]

3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

If you already pre-emptively need to nerf abilities for a system that swaps abilities, why not pick other abilities.

[Kur0Shir0]

il y a 5 minutes, Traubenzuckr a dit :

that's why you have the augment and the armor stripping ability (nyx 2). also, that's why you don't mind control any random enemy but those that do a lot of damage. 

I hope you're just being ironic, but I'm afraid you're not.

Realize one thing about what is said: if your 2 strip armor, why would I bother HOPING the ennemy I "mind control" (but still can't control) will shoot one of the 2 ennemies without armor ? And even still, PURE health scaling is higher than PURE damage scaling, without considering armor. And 100 is fairly early level. So if I strip armor, why would I use mind control over, let's say, my weapons?

[Loza03]

Just now, Zahnny said:

The game which doesn't allow reload mods to be Exilus mods because of powercreep.

can you blame them? Power Creep is, to be honest, singularly the biggest problem with Warframe. It has utterly and systematically ravaged almost all elements with every attempt to address it being met with harsh resistance.

Loot economy: the absurd power and availability of such has rendered the majority gameplay as completely linear. There is no differentiation between precision weapons and power weapons - our strongest weapons can shred boss fights as fast as they can destroy hordes of any variety. As such, every weapon from that point forward cannot hold a unique niche, and therefore must be held in direct comparison with each other. From there, something is either better or it's useless. The same is true for frames in individual roles - for example, every frame with invisibility has to be compared to Loki who can render himself immune to enemy detection for half a minute with the right modding. Therefore, they either have to go longer (whereupon Loki will become irrelevant) or have another utility appended to what is already a hugely powerful ability which allows players to entirely avoid encounters. Hence the constant power creep or dead-on-arrival frames/weapons.

Enemy design: Enemies spend the vast majority of their time either dead or completely incapable of damaging the player one way or another. There is literally no point to regular enemies at that point, because you can't design enemies to fight that without arbitrary ability immunity. Boss fights are neutered by the extreme discrepencies between tank frames, which as described above, are locked in a race of taking more death star hits to the face to the point of absurdity, so boss damage will either be completely irrelevant in the face of them, or so outrageously high as to lock out any other frame.

Mission design: Second first same as the first really. Without relevant enemies, the missions, which are naturally combat focused, lose any kind of interest. Whenever something isn't combat focused, it's naturally controversial at best.

Content Drought: Unsurprisingly, when the loot grind is unfulfilling, and the combat is unfulfilling, then the gameplay as a whhole is unfulfilling and doesn't hold a player's interest for as long. As such, players at or near the end of the Progression will find themselves frequently bored, as new content loses its luster much faster than expected, especially since due to how linear gameplay is at our power level, it's not actually anywhere near as 'new' as expected.

[CopperBezel]

I don't think it's a reasonable expectation that every ability would be equally viable. Not every frame is equally viable either. It's just a strange expectation to have IMO. Making some abilities weaker when not used on their source frame is ensuring that there's some variety and not one or two abilities that feel mandatory like everyone's been complaining would be the case. (I wasn't convinced and I'm still not, but that was a very popular position.) Spot fixing that doesn't suddenly raise the requirement that all abilities on the list are equal or even that all are viable. I mean a frame like Banshee or Zephyr doesn't have any viable abilities to donate to begin with.

[Hoppyscotch]

1 minute ago, Traubenzuckr said:

you obviously don't play nyx so why don't you shut up? people use nyx 1 against lvl 9999 enemies. you are ignorant from the bottom up. 

Nyx was my favorite warframe for years before you even started the game. You clearly don't understand how the game works.

[Proscriptor]

Just now, Kur0Shir0 said:

I hope you're just being ironic, but I'm afraid you're not.

Realize one thing about what is said: if your 2 strip armor, why would I bother HOPING the ennemy I "mind control" (but still can't control) will shoot one of the 2 ennemies without armor ? And even still, PURE health scaling is higher than PURE damage scaling, without considering armor. And 100 is fairly early level. So if I strip armor, why would I use mind control over, let's say, my weapons?

another nyx non-player worthlessly interjecting. nyx is one of the most meta frames for the level cap content, on the basis of all of her abilities, including 1.

[Ventasis]

On 2020-08-12 at 12:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

We have also changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite of the Helminth Segment to 8 (was 15)

They're determined to keep high MR meaningless.

[(XBOX)L0RDPH03N1X95]

3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

AUGUST 19TH UPDATE:

Greetings, Tenno!

The launch of Heart of Deimos grows near, and we have some Helminth updates since we last posted! Below are 2 parts of updated/clarifying information that touches both Infused Warframe Abilities and the Helminth Segment acquisition.  

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

PART 2 - Helminth Segment Acquisition

As already indicated in this Dev Workshops original post, the Helminth Segment is acquired in the Heart of Deimos in the Entrati Syndicate. To expand on that, this means you’ll need to progress within the Entrati Syndicate located within the Necralisk to obtain the Helminth Segment before you can start experimenting with everything Helminth. 

Without spoiling too much, the Helminth Segment is currently obtained in Rank 3 of the Entrati Syndicate. This reminder is simply to set expectations on what you’ll have access to upon logging into the Heart of Deimos. 

That’s all for now!

Defy already has an Armour Cap of 1500. Are you reducing it further? Maybe 750? Which is still pretty big, most of the time I barely feel the difference when I activate Defy.

[Gorox7]

I am not active on the forums, but I feel like this is the one time I need to speak up.

Lowering the MR requirement to 8 is a huge mistake.

This is not because of some elitism or balance concerns. New players already have a lot on their plate. A lot of stuff to spend resources on. A lot of systems to experiment with. MR 8 players get access to their first riven mods. I have tried to get several of my friends into the game and I know that many people below MR 10 are really overwhelmed by everything in the game.

And on top of that, Helminth System is also a huge resource sink. And it should be. But that also means that it is really not suitable for people without large stockpiles of resources. There is a high probability that this system turns into, from a lack of a better term, a "noob trap", bankrupting players who just don't know any better. We have previously ran into this issue with Kuva Liches, as MR5 people are pretty unlikely to have the gear to beat level 50+ grinner. Similarly, those MR8 players are unlikely to be ready and prepared to spend their resources on this system.

Please, reconsider this change. If you really want to make this system available to more people, make it MR 10 or 12. Or limit the functionality in some way for the less experienced players. Or even make the segment suitably expensive to build. There must be some major barrier of entry before the actual resource sink becomes available.

[Proscriptor]

Just now, Hoppyscotch said:

Nyx was my favorite warframe for years before you even started the game. You clearly don't understand how the game works.

the game changed over the years and armor scales differently now, it stagnates severely after a certain point while damage syrockets

[HealingMind]

17 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Because it's an armor buff that is very easy to max-out (1500 // 83% DR) just by taking damage and has a generous duration. It makes everyone a tank without abusing shield gating, negating glass-cannon frame designs. Just think of Mirage, Gauss, Nova, Banshee, Titania, Wisp, Volt, or Mesa with this.

I don't agree with this nerf, but that's likely DE's train of thought there.

Do people think Gauss is some sort of massively squishy fast boi? Gauss is a tank on wheels when he gets setup, he doesn't need any armor buffs when he can just press 4, press 2, and go whoosh and then mow down people at max speed.

Hell, Banshee's and maybe mirage are the only real glass cannon designs anymore. Pretty much everyone else has something to be able to deal with the damage that comes in.

[DeMonkey]

Honestly, I read the edit and had a chuckle at Defy being included on the list. Once again, because DE designed frames with literal magnitudes in stat difference, we're feeling knock on effects.

I mean, how many frames is Defy going to be busted on and possibly in need of a nerf? Inaros and... who? So is the subsumed variant of the ability really being nerfed because one frame might benefit from it a bit too much? Perhaps the problem isn't the ability, but rather the completely haphazard design and complete disregard for the very concept of balance when designing these frames.

It's not like Inaros (and any other frame that might benefit unduly from Defy) actually have any trouble surviving in the first place.

Not even sure what actually winds me up the most here. I couldn't give a hairy behind about nerfs, they're part of balancing, I think it's that this isn't balancing, it's 'pin the tail on the donkey' with various different possible tweaks dotted all over the donkey, and wherever the pin lands is the buff or nerf made.

[Kur0Shir0]

il y a 3 minutes, Traubenzuckr a dit :

another nyx non-player worthlessly interjecting. nyx is one of the most meta frames for the level cap content, on the basis of all of her abilities, including 1.

Sorry, I played Nyx maybe longer you played warframe. Theme wise it's one of my favorite as I really like mind control possibilities.

But if I'm being honest, and even now I'm sometime trying to put her to the level of even others non meta frame like Valkyr, I can't even HOPE to manage that, except by building around her 4. Her 1 is trash, her 2 is, at best, vaguely decent but need to build strength on wich you DON'T care on Nyx and could do more easily with Ash, her 3 is good and her 4 is basically slow motion invulnerability with the augment (specially now than the shield and swords' stance mobility have been nerfed with melee 3.0).

[DSAUSAGE]

Just replace Roar with Rhino Charge, We cant let people use good abilities.

[IRVoidGuru]

21 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Because it's an armor buff that is very easy to max-out (1500 // 83% DR) just by taking damage and has a generous duration. It makes everyone a tank without abusing shield gating, negating glass-cannon frame designs. Just think of Mirage, Gauss, Nova, Banshee, Titania, Wisp, Volt, or Mesa with this.

I don't agree with this nerf, but that's likely DE's train of thought there.

Good logic till we consider arcane tanker. Giving 80% damage reduction and if paired with the 1500 from defy only = 90%DR. So what is the harm?

[Hoppyscotch]

Just now, Traubenzuckr said:

the game changed over the years and armor scales differently now, it stagnates severely after a certain point while damage syrockets

Like i said play nyx if you want I don't care. I test her every time she's buffed and she is always lacking. It's your game and you can play it how you want but she's not a good pick in any context.

[tennomantra]

"Hey, bro, what's the new dispo for Dispenser on Mesa?"

[DrivaMain]

I am disappointed they lowered the MR requirements. MR 8 is still newbie levels, what happened to the “veterans only”?

[OniDax]

1 hour ago, Fruchtpudding said:

Haha, this happens every time. You should really be expecting it by now. As usual the experience will be lackluster, the new content will be stretched to the limit and every gameplay related thing (mission types etc.) will be made with the lowest possible effort. Also all the systems and stuff they showed off that you are imagining would be complex and connected will be disconnected and simple, as always.

The only thing that's consistently good in this game is the art and sound and if you get hyped for anything else than that you just set yourself up for disappointment.

 

Unfortunately, this is true. Every. single. time. Oh, and the Rank 3 thing for the Entrati Syndicate is interesting. I wonder what other open world content was locked behind Rank 3...

This is PoE and Fortuna all over again. They never learn.

[Dalladir]

Why is DE trying so hard to disappoint the players?

Why #*!% up and nerf something that was supposed to be "end-game" content that isn't even out yet? 

Why would I spend my time and resources on something that isn't                                                                                                                                                                                                 a)fun                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 or b)would improve my performance

Players will still pick one of the 7 decent abilities even if they are nerfed because everything else is not worth your damn time.

I'm not even excited to play anymore.

 

[Metal_Sign]

2 hours ago, --Q--FSK41 said:

I am not no living this game,i am an old player,someone who this was supposed to aim at,not new players that played for a few months,no people like me that played for years. Just because there is something new in the game that doesn't mean EVERYONE should have access to it,especially to something SO powerful as this

 

not “so powerful” anymore lol

[Zahnny]

5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

-snip-

Ok, but how does all that effect reload speed and dispensary?

[Kaotis]

hace 3 horas, [DE]Megan dijo:

AUGUST 19TH UPDATE:

Greetings, Tenno!

The launch of Heart of Deimos grows near, and we have some Helminth updates since we last posted! Below are 2 parts of updated/clarifying information that touches both Infused Warframe Abilities and the Helminth Segment acquisition.  

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

Why do these Infused Warframe Abilities have these rules?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal. Instead of changing the Ability outright due to those concerns, we decided to give them slight rules when Infused.

PART 2 - Helminth Segment Acquisition

As already indicated in this Dev Workshops original post, the Helminth Segment is acquired in the Heart of Deimos in the Entrati Syndicate. To expand on that, this means you’ll need to progress within the Entrati Syndicate located within the Necralisk to obtain the Helminth Segment before you can start experimenting with everything Helminth. 

Without spoiling too much, the Helminth Segment is currently obtained in Rank 3 of the Entrati Syndicate. This reminder is simply to set expectations on what you’ll have access to upon logging into the Heart of Deimos. 

That’s all for now!

Not to be mean ... but you directly preemptly nerfed something before releasing it in base of some feedback from players that haven't tested the actual thing.... call me crazy but in order to actually consider something overturned/ over powered don't you need to see it perform at that level first ? basically going by theory crafting from some players to decide on your product without actually seeing the initial result of your product is a bit lacking in both creative department and not standing by the initial decision that was made, not saying you can't nerf something after the fact, just not after some comments from the players that in most cases can't even access the system...

Sadly after each update you guys at DE seem to care more about what the minority that screams more think about your game than your actual product.

P.S. Theory crafting about something yet to experience shouldn't be considered as real feedback imho.