Heart of Deimos: The Helminth System Feedback Megathread

[IGN_Maverick]

When I will have my helmint system ready and working, I will just copy and paste all the post I wrote in the other topic here. 🙂 

[(XBOX)BeansMcDonut]

I feel that the nerfs to the abilities of the subsumed warframes was not necessary. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth when theres an issue like this, and instead of buffing other abilities to make them better, they get nerfed and become effectively not worth using. This system seems like it was created to encourage creativity. When you nerf the best abilities, at least for me personally, it doesn't make me want to use the other abilities. It makes me want to not use the system at all because not a whole lot of the abilities given are really good. I hope you guys decide to go back on the decision to nerf those abilities and instead, maybe buff some more abilities to make those more appealing and make me reconsider using roar or larva. Also, in my opinion, the grind for the helminth system is a little high. I'd appreciate it if you made it able to be purchased with platinum and/or reduce the grind to get there. 

EDIT: I just got my hands on the helminth system. The resource requirement is WAY too high. Nobody at MR8 is going to have the resources necessary to use the helminth system in its current state, and even me, who is MR23 is still struggling with materials for it. I think the resource requirement should be at least halfed, if not quartered for certain materials like copernics and carbides and such. Also there should be a way to increase the amount of frames you can subsume at a time, plus a way to rush subsuming. You can rush almost every time required process in warframe, it feels odd that you can't rush the subsuming process.

Thanks for reading, love you DE. Please do something about these issues.

[Asher74]

I can't decide what frames I want to subsume.  The problem i run into is that i don't actually have any subsumed abilities that I particularly want on my frames.  When the abilities were announced I naturally picked those abilities that were reduced as DE's internal testers did as well and it got me thinking.  I looked at all my frames and noticed that the vast majority of them are Duration and Strength aligned, with a couple being primarily ranged and a couple others being balanced,  Looking at the abilities that got nerfed, you see that they are made for Strength/duration warframes.  Meanwhile, most of the other subsume abilities are made for less common builds involving range, the element boosting abilities (smite, nourish, etc) and the nerfed abilities being the exceptions.  I think the fact most people are flocking to those abilities is more than just their function, it has a lot to do with the fact most frames now rely on self buffs and use str and dur and most subsume abilities just don't work on their build.  If the developers want the abilities to be evenly used, they have a lot of work ahead of them since it will require a lot more than just number tweaking to get the other abilities to work on most frames, as they just don't work properly on a duration and strength build.

[Univarous]

It would be nice to be able to rush the Subsuming process - like anything else, with plat. Please?

[Dlor]

Just fed my first warframe to Helminth, then when I hover over the Subsuming Warframe ability (it says 22h 48 min left) it also says 2 slots available on the tool tip.  Yet when I click on it to subsume another warframe it pops up "The Helminth can only subsume one Warframe at a time."  Is this working as intended? a bug? Does this mean I can only Subsume 3 warframes total until I upgrade to the 4th metamorphosis? unclear.

Also is the only way to rank up Helminth is by feeding him and subsuming warframes?  If so, you can't feed him past 100% so you have to put abilities on warframes and take them off just to rank up Helminth.  This is the only way to unlock extra subsume slots so you can subsume more warframes.

[Voltage]

Please buff Empower if it's to not benefit from any Strength mods. 50% is just too low to be a meaningful choice.

Also, please prevent Empower from consuming Energy Conversion stacks. If you have Energy Conversion on, and then cast Empower to buff your next cast, you consume Energy Conversion's bonus which is -50% Strength (because Empower is a fixed 50% Strength bonus) and then +50% from Empower granting the player no positive Strength increase.

[JordieBG]

The pet healing ability should also resurrect it from its dead state otherwise it will never be even considered. Currently it only recalls it and heals it regardless of bleedout state.

[zakaryx]

Posted this in another Helminth thread and figured I should post it here.

 

I seem to have locked myself into a spiral of doom here. I've done a TON of railjack and have hundreds of thousands of the normal resouces from it. 5k Asterite for a single feeding is absolutely insane. Feeding it 50 iriadite won't lower my other red resources or raise any of the others to green. Is the system intended to have 7 out of the 9 resources be nearly worthless after a certain point?

 

5k asterite

12.5k diodes

300 gallos rods

30 grokdrul

300 hexenon

50 iradite

50 lucent teroglobe

225 nullstones

6k Rubedo.

 

Some of these values are far too high for their "reward" I'd love to see a person that has more than 30k asterite aka 6 feedings.

[(PSN)MrFantasies]

Main Point: Feeding the Helminth Bile and Calx resources feels bad

My issue here lies with feeding the Helminth, specifically with Bile and Calx. The amount of resources you need to feed the Helminth as much as you need to feels bad. Not to mention, Bile and Calx have the least amount of possible resources you can feed the Helminth as well, so it feels bad to try and get them up, so as of now, all of my Calx resources are red, and my Bile only has the 3 resources I no longer have enough of that aren't red. Bile also lacks a common resource that you can have hundreds of thousands of, while the others do (Oxides - Alloy Plates/Ferrite/Salvage), (Calx - Rubedo), (Synthetics - Circuits, Polymer Bundles), (Pheromones - Nano Spores, Plastids). Biotics also does not have any massive stockpile resource, but makes up for it in the amount of resources it can possibly hold.

Also, drop the amount of Cryotic needed to sacrifice from 3,000 to something like 1,000. Please. This should be the case with quite a few resources that the average player doesn't have a ton of.

To remedy this, I would consider moving Plastids/Nano Spores over to Bile, or reducing the total required amount of resources each Bile resource needs. Also, if that seems too drastic, I would implement a system that, over time, pushes red resources closer to being neutral/green over a set time, perhaps a couple of hours, like 3-4?

Main Point: It takes an excessive amount of time to subsume a Warframe; consider adding additional subsumption timers via levels or an upgrade segment that decreases the time it takes to subsume a Warframe by a certain amount.

Another things I would like to see implemented is allowing us the ability to subsume multiple Warframes at once. The way I would approach this would be by adding additional levels to the Helminth. Perhaps after level 10, Levels 11, 12, and 13 are added, granting you additional Subsumption Timers, allowing you more than 1 frame to be subsumed at once. Another possible thing could be a Helminth Upgrade Segment like the one for Incubators/Foundries, which either increases the amount of Warframes you can subsume at once, or decreases the timer from 23 hours to 11 hours. This could be put in the Son's Wares as well for another 15000 Standing and could require a much larger resource dump than the regular Helminth segment blueprint, making sure that this is something that only people who are engaging in Deimos as much as possible have access to, as well as those who have a higher MR.

Main Point: A few of the Helminth abilities feel rather underwhelming and need a little love, mainly Expedite Suffering and Perspicacity.

The Helminth abilities feel underwhelming when compared to Warframe abilities in most cases. Marked For Death, Empower, and Rebuild Shields feel fine, but the others feel rather bad. My suggestions-

Energized Munitions: Increase the duration by 1 second to 6s.

Master's Summons: Allow this ability to drain twice the normal energy drain and revive your Companion if it is dead, and don't have it call your companion to your side. Instead, have this ability grant your companion damage reduction for a time. I would suggest about 50% Damage reduction up to 95%, lasting for about 12s at base, allowing people with pets they like to equip this to be able to revive them if they mess up and they die, especially for Sentinels.

Perspicacity: Remove this entirely and replace it. The only place this even COULD be useful is in Sorties. Remove it entirely and replace it with something else, perhaps a CC ability since the Helminth does not have one at base.

Expedite Suffering: Change this to include Fire and Gas, as well as Electricity if it counts. If Gas seems too abuseable, skip it. Also, change this to be any enemy with these status effects within range/within Line of Sight.

And I think that's about it. So, TL'DR

- Add additional Warframe subsumption timers or lowered subsumption timers via either additional Helminth levels or a Segment, not just to the base. Leave the base at 23 hours.

- Made Calx and Bile resources not feel so punishing to use since there are so few. Also, rebalance a few of the more rare resources/Railjack resources so that they don't take so many.

- Change a few of the Helminth abilities so that they compete with the Warframe abilities, and completely remove perspicacity altogether.

[Circle_of_Psi]

4 hours ago, zakaryx said:

-snip-

As I said in your other post: DE have already screwed up this system?, it needs polishing and fixing at the same time?. Needs to have the cost dropped by alteast 75%?

Got it..

 

Is anyone really srupised anymore?

[Boll]

I understand that you dont make beta to keep the whole update for release and dont have leaks but I think you should try to find trustworthy peoples around the community to test this updates before release.

[Univarous]

1 hour ago, (PS4)PresidentLegend said:

-snip-

Wait, how do you have all the abilities already? Did you overfeed the Helminth?

[Colyeses]

1 hour ago, (PS4)PresidentLegend said:

Perspicacity: Remove this entirely and replace it. The only place this even COULD be useful is in Sorties. Remove it entirely and replace it with something else, perhaps a CC ability since the Helminth does not have one at base.

I like the idea of it for speeding up spy missions on Ivara, but it seems dumb that it scales in 'chance'. Have it be 100%, all the time, but have it scale in the amount of skipped hacks instead.

(Besides, having any ability that has any % chance to not do anything is always a hard, VERY hard 'No' in terms of game design, let alone a whopping 75%.)

[Solarsyphon]

7 hours ago, Voltage said:

Please buff Empower if it's to not benefit from any Strength mods. 50% is just too low to be a meaningful choice.

Also, please prevent Empower from consuming Energy Conversion stacks. If you have Energy Conversion on, and then cast Empower to buff your next cast, you consume Energy Conversion's bonus which is -50% Strength (because Empower is a fixed 50% Strength bonus) and then +50% from Empower granting the player no positive Strength increase.

It does have a few frames that would use it as is mainly those who already have damage buffs to improve those. You may also use it for abilities you hold like exalteds but then it has to compete with roar making it a harder choice. A full power build on roar would go up to about 120% extra damage when transferred but has more build requirements than empower. I think a fair balance would be about half way between where it is now and that. The problem is doing that makes the boost to roar 43% extra damage, vex armor 234% damage, 170% for eclipse potentially boosting them too much. 

(side not while doing this calc I realised mirage'es eclipse is significantly weaker than vex armor while being a fair bit less reliable due to being based on light level)

[Ursoon]

Railjack resource cost to feed the helminth are insane. 1000 bracoids, 1000 fressnels, 5000 asterite, 300 gallos rods, 300 kesslers, 10000 trachons and 225 nullstones. I have a little less than 900 nullstones after ranking up my intrinsics to 10/10/10/10 (also invested a few hundreds to my clan), but i have over a thousand of those radiant spheres from cambion drift after two days, and helminth eats only 50 of them. And i did only like 5 vault runs, the rest is just exploring. Also you need only 16 bracoids to repair a mk III railjack gun, why do you need a thousand to feed the helminth once?
3000 cryotic and 5 diluted thermia is also too much. 3000 cryotic is 30 excavators, 1m40s each, which is 50 minutes in total. One diluted thermia is about 5 minutes of mobile defence against high level enemies with constant rad procs and nullifier blasts, and it also requires a full squad.

[tennomantra]

So far I've only found one glaring problem. I've played railjack a lot. I've got a lot of railjack resources from that, that's including the x2 booster. However the amounts of railjack resources required for single feed are ridiculously high. If I'm to try to play the feeding efficiency game with helminth's tastes for variety, that would mean that after feeding some of the railjack resources to him as little as one time, I would need to farm railjack for a few weeks for one more feed. 

Even if Railjack missions were more varied and there was more content, I feel like the resource requirements are still several times too high.

Here's how it looks after not having fed my helminth railjack resources once:
 

Spoiler

 

[Drachnyn]

Out of the open world resources only the generic ones like grokdrul or thermic sludge are up on the menu for helminth feeding. Why arent gems and fish parts on the helminth food list?

Why is energy munitions so restricted? Its base duration is already only 5 seconds, it costs 50 energy and there is always the oppurtunity cost of not having another ability. Let it scale with strength up to 100% ammo efficiency, otherwise the ability is very lackluster when there are so many others that i could use instead.

[Unibot]

28 минут назад, Drachnyn сказал:

Out of the open world resources only the generic ones like grokdrul or thermic sludge are up on the menu for helminth feeding. Why arent gems and fish parts on the helminth food list?

Why is energy munitions so restricted? Its base duration is already only 5 seconds, it costs 50 energy and there is always the oppurtunity cost of not having another ability. Let it scale with strength up to 100% ammo efficiency, otherwise the ability is very lackluster when there are so many others that i could use instead.

I was so up to this until I found out its so lackluster. If it would scale to 100% then it would be worth it otherwise there are better options(ammo mutation or carrier). So much hype and the helminth system is meh as best. Too much restrictions, I think I'm fine without it on that conditions. My helminth is probably going to starve at this rate(yup I'm keeping those stockpiled resources cause it feels like I'm throwing them into a garbage can).

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

Was looking forward to something geared towards more veteran and experienced players. Thought it was gonna be the first time they do that, then DE makes it avaliable for newbies. Will we ever get stuff for actual experienced players? Would've given a reason to get to MR15. My feedback is make it for experienced players (MR8 is NOT very experienced). That was the major turn off for this system. 

[tennomantra]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

Was looking forward to something geared towards more veteran and experienced players. Thought it was gonna be the first time they do that, then DE makes it avaliable for newbies. Will we ever get stuff for actual experienced players? Would've given a reason to get to MR15. My feedback is make it for experienced players (MR8 is more very experienced). That was the major turn off for this system. 

Tbf, the investment required for helminth progress is the same for everyone, but veterans already have resources and means to easily farm and craft duplicate frames for subsuming. I feel like it's fine that lower MR players will be able to access it earlier and start working on their goals. They won't be able to achieve far as much and as fast as veterans, but if we are to see rise of "new meta warframes", it's nice for lower mr players that they'll be able to build them without it being timewalled by a month of MR progression.

[Aisu9]

first, some ressources cost are WAY too high (railjack mission)
second Master's Summon could be better if it work/synergise with Nyx's mind controlled ennemie, Revenant's thralls and Wukong's clone

[Zilotz]

Is it a bug that Empower does not scale it's strength (always flat+50%)?

If it is not a bug then it is not good enough to be placed in most cases(takes place of a real ability for just +50% str).

[ixidron92]

Gotta love it.

[ixidron92]

hace 4 minutos, Zilotz dijo:

Is it a bug that Empower does not scale it's strength (always flat+50%)?

If it is not a bug then it is not good enough to be placed in most cases(takes place of a real ability for just +50% str).

You nuts? Empower is awesome, and if it scaled of strength it'd be bonkers. Not to mention, a positive feedback loop. 

[Zaratul.96]

Is there a way to rename the Helminth? Caues if not i d suggest adding that into the game. I accidentally missclicked and now the name of my helminth is just "Helminth".