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Wasnt the goal a LESS grindy game?


(PSN)Deathscythex01

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6 minutes ago, Invoky said:

It is and so was the example you given.

I remember when I used to play FF11 and we camped King Behemoth daily. After 3 years we finally got the Defending ring to drop, and I was rewarded for it as the main paladin in the clan. Then after 2 weeks, I decided to quit the game because I got really bored of the game(played 5 years). The entire clan was upset at me because there were only 3 rings ever exist in that server. So I ended up donating my account to another clanmate after all that pressure from peers. Now look it back, it was very silly how we created so much drama and how many hours we all wasted camping in that stupid game.

Just because MMO are known to be time consuming, doesn't mean we have to follow the tradition to make it painful to play. We all play games for the enjoyment and that should be the priority. 

The new open world borders on painful more than other things, but grind and RNG is one of the ways devs keep people from consuming content in a matter of days, which they would and then complain there is a "content drought."

 

You can't have everything immediately in these types of games, you have to work for it. I haven't any idea what would replace it though and neither do the devs of most MMOs as far as I can tell.

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15 minutes ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

You haven’t played in two years, why are you trying to offer feedback?

Who are you referring to?

5 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

The new open world borders on painful more than other things, but grind and RNG is one of the ways devs keep people from consuming content in a matter of days, which they would and then complain there is a "content drought."

 

You can't have everything immediately in these types of games, you have to work for it. I haven't any idea what would replace it though and neither do the devs of most MMOs as far as I can tell.

Yeah, and there is daily syndicate cap, time to crafting, material farming etc. I am not against DE slows down players' progression. It's the excessive RNG making the grind feel un-rewarding.

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3 minutes ago, Invoky said:

Who are you referring to?

Yeah, and there is daily syndicate cap, time to crafting, material farming etc. I am not against DE slows down players' progression. It's the excessive RNG making the grind feel un-rewarding.

I get 30,250k standing a day. I could zip through the requirements.

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50 minutes ago, Invoky said:

Who are you referring to?

Yeah, and there is daily syndicate cap, time to crafting, material farming etc. I am not against DE slows down players' progression. It's the excessive RNG making the grind feel un-rewarding.

The OP said he hasn't played in 2 years yet goes on this rant, citing that youtubers started playing other games. 

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DE has run out of the box of tricks to engage their players,

 

They cannot make the game more interesting or players feel engaged anymore ,

so they just make the game extended and players occupied instead ,

with the only way they know how , Grind and RNG.

 

I do not consider it out of malice or incompetence, i consider it out of helplessness and fatigue.

When they do try to make something new they don't always succeed - mostly cause they are making something not intended for their current demographic ,

with very bad planning and foresight to boot,

unfortunately they do have a bad habit of giving up and not finishing things when things don't quite go their way as well.

Pair that with their near ADHD like mindset - where they cant even focus on one thing till it is considered complete - it becomes stale really fast.

 

A game that has done enough to keep me occupied for more than 5K hours nearly half of which must have been interesting is not bad ,

but they cant keep me occupied with the same stuff over and over again.

I feel its time they looked back on some of the abandoned content instead of trying to hatch new eggs.

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14 minutes ago, Morthal said:

These statements, no matter how true, is why the industry continually becomes worse and lazy with innovation. They don't even have to try when everyone just accepts the garbage they spit out. 

This, so much this. If something's crap, then you should just not bother with it in the first place. It doesn't matter if there's something else which is even worse. Bad is not as bad as worse, but it's still bad.

Take Deimos. I completely ignored it and everything related to it for about 3 weeks because I know full well that any of DE's major releases are going to be broken out the arse, balanced as well as a car standing on its front bumper and with about as much polish as a fresh pile of horse manure.

3 weeks later and it's still mediocre at best. Enemies trying their hardest to avoid the killzone in the assassination part of a bounty (this is despite 3 tether coils attached to and trying to pull them inside), being required to protect a "shield drone" which can't refill its own shields, the ridiculous cost of seriglass shards which they've tried to bury behind 3 separate layers of abstraction and the complete absence of these "crescent vulpaphyla" or "scintillant" things.

Then there are these vault bounties. I tried one on my own. God, it was boring. Twiddle your thumbs while you wait for the radio drama to finish before the mission begins. Sit around for 4 minutes, then sit around for another 4 minutes. Then go inside and kill a robot which will randomly instagib you with no warning in some glitchy area where small child mode dashing randomly stops working for no reason.

OK, done. It said something about "opening a vault", but hadn't I just done that? Whatever. The bounty said something about "do all 3 vaults in one cycle to get a bonus". I didn't see anything else around, so back outside. No other waypoints to the next mission or other, so let's go and look at one of these weird orange icon things on the map which I assume are quest giver markers. Nothing there that looks like a vault bounty, #*!% it, it must be broken. Back inside.

Later on, I put it on public and try again. My first group has a leader who has some kind of arcane divination skills. After doing the waiting and more waiting parts, then slaying a mech, I suddenly see that we've gained another objective with its waypoint. I've no idea how this arose or what the leader did to make it happen. Then I have to follow around the slowest, most annoying escort quest idiot in the entire game. Seriously, why can't we pick up this Loid thing and carry it around or just flat out kick it to the next objective? Is it some kind of snail-driven chariot? Thus follows many minutes more standing around and at the end, I finally see that there actually is a vault. No idea where it came from, but in there is some resources. Yay.

The next mission appears. I have no idea where the warlock in charge found the place to do that, but such are the ways of the eldritch. I'm still queuing up to use this esophage thing which takes FOREVER to reset after a squadmate uses it. So we run the next one. It's the exact same mobile defence mission as before. IT'S SO BORING. That finally ends, then a third mission appears from nowhere. WAITING INTENSIFIES.

And at the end, I see some of these orokin matrix things and one mech component (I forget which).

A full hour of complete boredom with very little to show as a result. I'd have to do this for weeks on end in order to get a set of useful mods for this necramech thing, the only purpose of which that I can think of is finally to have an archgun on land with the infinite ammo that it's supposed to have. They're inferior to warframes in mobility, melee and abilities. I was very underwhelmed by the one I used in the quest.

So I don't have a necramech, I don't have any mods for it and I don't have the parts to build 3 of the new weapons (the oversized guns and the warfan). I don't care. It's not worth it.

I'm just not going to bother at all.

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1 час назад, DoomFruit сказал:

This, so much this. If something's crap, then you should just not bother with it in the first place. It doesn't matter if there's something else which is even worse. Bad is not as bad as worse, but it's still bad.

Take Deimos. I completely ignored it and everything related to it for about 3 weeks because I know full well that any of DE's major releases are going to be broken out the arse, balanced as well as a car standing on its front bumper and with about as much polish as a fresh pile of horse manure.

3 weeks later and it's still mediocre at best. Enemies trying their hardest to avoid the killzone in the assassination part of a bounty (this is despite 3 tether coils attached to and trying to pull them inside), being required to protect a "shield drone" which can't refill its own shields, the ridiculous cost of seriglass shards which they've tried to bury behind 3 separate layers of abstraction and the complete absence of these "crescent vulpaphyla" or "scintillant" things.

Then there are these vault bounties. I tried one on my own. God, it was boring. Twiddle your thumbs while you wait for the radio drama to finish before the mission begins. Sit around for 4 minutes, then sit around for another 4 minutes. Then go inside and kill a robot which will randomly instagib you with no warning in some glitchy area where small child mode dashing randomly stops working for no reason.

OK, done. It said something about "opening a vault", but hadn't I just done that? Whatever. The bounty said something about "do all 3 vaults in one cycle to get a bonus". I didn't see anything else around, so back outside. No other waypoints to the next mission or other, so let's go and look at one of these weird orange icon things on the map which I assume are quest giver markers. Nothing there that looks like a vault bounty, #*!% it, it must be broken. Back inside.

Later on, I put it on public and try again. My first group has a leader who has some kind of arcane divination skills. After doing the waiting and more waiting parts, then slaying a mech, I suddenly see that we've gained another objective with its waypoint. I've no idea how this arose or what the leader did to make it happen. Then I have to follow around the slowest, most annoying escort quest idiot in the entire game. Seriously, why can't we pick up this Loid thing and carry it around or just flat out kick it to the next objective? Is it some kind of snail-driven chariot? Thus follows many minutes more standing around and at the end, I finally see that there actually is a vault. No idea where it came from, but in there is some resources. Yay.

The next mission appears. I have no idea where the warlock in charge found the place to do that, but such are the ways of the eldritch. I'm still queuing up to use this esophage thing which takes FOREVER to reset after a squadmate uses it. So we run the next one. It's the exact same mobile defence mission as before. IT'S SO BORING. That finally ends, then a third mission appears from nowhere. WAITING INTENSIFIES.

And at the end, I see some of these orokin matrix things and one mech component (I forget which).

A full hour of complete boredom with very little to show as a result. I'd have to do this for weeks on end in order to get a set of useful mods for this necramech thing, the only purpose of which that I can think of is finally to have an archgun on land with the infinite ammo that it's supposed to have. They're inferior to warframes in mobility, melee and abilities. I was very underwhelmed by the one I used in the quest.

So I don't have a necramech, I don't have any mods for it and I don't have the parts to build 3 of the new weapons (the oversized guns and the warfan). I don't care. It's not worth it.

I'm just not going to bother at all.

Deimos is still the best open world mission in term of grind. 2 SP bounties and you get all the daily standing.

Yep it's full of bugs, but they rarely game breaking. Boring yes, bounties are pretty boring, but mostly that one with corpus guy.

Necramech is terrible, because you have to read wiki to know where to get 2nd and 3d vaults. However when you know this ,  things become very easy, takes me around 40 minutes to clear all 3 vaults solo with mediocre build on ignis. But when actually DE explained anything in their game, huh?

Still it's much better than eidolons and profit orb , which are almost impossible solo for mediocre/average player who just trying to play for fun.

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7 hours ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

We want to make the game less of a grind for all players while trying to deliver new and exciting ways to make the game fun and enjoyable"

Liar — Steemit

obviously there needs to be SOME grind in order to keep some level of engagement, but every time DE say "reduce the grind", they immediately 180 and add to the grind more. they said this before Fortuna's release, we got Vox Systems to grind, they said this before Equinox, a warframe with double the parts. there have only been a few places where grind was actually reduced without some form of Caveat. the most recent one I remember was Titanium and Asterite in Railjack.

at this point "reducing the grind" is a warning siren for "we're gonna pull some BS right now" and is as much a meme as the almighty Soon™. don't ever believe DE when they say this, until you see the changes for yourself. otherwise you're just gonna be disappointed and/or angered. 

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7 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

I'm not a game developer so I don't really know the thought process, but now they do appear fully committed to grind. I'm sure there's a logical reason to it. 

It's pretty simple. It keeps people playing longer and helps sell boosters.

No company has the manpower to make a game that can sate the rabid consumers that complete an entire expansion within a few days. So the only option is repetition.

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From what I understand of those topics of "less grind", they completly miss the point of the looter aspect of the game.

When people who makes those topics talk about "less grind", I notice they almost, ALMOST, seem like to mean "No need to play to get things".

I mean, look at this OP, he says things about grinding Deimos, which is its own area with its own resources and such. Now, imagine if there was "less grind" for them. You would so the story, look around and then what?

When I hear of "less grind" I think "Less layers on top of layers of grind", what did Deimos do that is different from Fortuna or Cetus? What other layer did it add compared to them? Tokens? I consider them better than what we have in Cetus and Fortuna in terms of Bounties because I can keep running them, get the rewards and get reserve standing of Mother Tokens.

You want to know the biggest "layer upon layer of grind" exemple we had? Liches at launch. We had those layers:

1st: Random Weapon

2nd: Random % of Bonus Damage

3rd: Random Epherma

4rd: Random Requiem Relic

5th: Random Chance of getting a Requiem Mods.

5th: Murmurs

6th: Random Requiem Combination

If you didnt get what you wanted in the first 3? You had to do the whole shebang and then do it again. THAT was "more grind".

What we had on Deimos/Fortuna/Cetus?

1st: Grind Standing with Mother/Eudico/Konzu using Bounties/Fishing/Mining/Conservation

2nd: Grind Materials from Fishing/Mining/Conservation for either Rank Up or build things.

What Deimos did different from Ticker?

Ticker would have a random chance to have the Debt Bound you would need to Rank Up or you could grind the mission (Hell we even had someone complaining that Ticker doesnt have them a few days ago) or to give for Standing. But you would need to give your own resources to grab them, which means you HAD to Fish/Mine or break containers and hope for the best.

Deimos has all Vendors use the Ticker Method of you exchanging resources for things that give standing, but directed to their own areas instead of all of them like Ticker does, so: Tokens = Debt Bonds.

Son Tokens? Do you actually need them aside from the Rank Up thing? For Grandmother? I thought we have all stabilished that doing Bounties and stacking up Mother Tokens is far more lucrative in terms of time/investiment than exchanging for Granny Tokens.

What you would need Granny Tokens for is 3 Things atm: Rank up to 5 and 2 Weapons, totalizing 60 Granny. But those can be farmed with Mother Tokens alone, it will take more time for sure, but after that? You will be stockpiling or using on cosmetics.

From my perspective? We did not get "less grind" with Deimos, but we did not get "more grind" either. Unless you consider "more grind" = "more things to do in a different area"

As far as I'm concerned: it went sideways.

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12 минут назад, Kaotyke сказал:

From what I understand of those topics of "less grind", they completly miss the point of the looter aspect of the game.

When people who makes those topics talk about "less grind", I notice they almost, ALMOST, seem like to mean "No need to play to get things".

I mean, look at this OP, he says things about grinding Deimos, which is its own area with its own resources and such. Now, imagine if there was "less grind" for them. You would so the story, look around and then what?

When I hear of "less grind" I think "Less layers on top of layers of grind", what did Deimos do that is different from Fortuna or Cetus? What other layer did it add compared to them? Tokens? I consider them better than what we have in Cetus and Fortuna in terms of Bounties because I can keep running them, get the rewards and get reserve standing of Mother Tokens.

You want to know the biggest "layer upon layer of grind" exemple we had? Liches at launch. We had those layers:

1st: Random Weapon

2nd: Random % of Bonus Damage

3rd: Random Epherma

4rd: Random Requiem Relic

5th: Random Chance of getting a Requiem Mods.

5th: Murmurs

6th: Random Requiem Combination

If you didnt get what you wanted in the first 3? You had to do the whole shebang and then do it again. THAT was "more grind".

What we had on Deimos/Fortuna/Cetus?

1st: Grind Standing with Mother/Eudico/Konzu using Bounties/Fishing/Mining/Conservation

2nd: Grind Materials from Fishing/Mining/Conservation for either Rank Up or build things.

What Deimos did different from Ticker?

Ticker would have a random chance to have the Debt Bound you would need to Rank Up or you could grind the mission (Hell we even had someone complaining that Ticker doesnt have them a few days ago) or to give for Standing. But you would need to give your own resources to grab them, which means you HAD to Fish/Mine or break containers and hope for the best.

Deimos has all Vendors use the Ticker Method of you exchanging resources for things that give standing, but directed to their own areas instead of all of them like Ticker does, so: Tokens = Debt Bonds.

Son Tokens? Do you actually need them aside from the Rank Up thing? For Grandmother? I thought we have all stabilished that doing Bounties and stacking up Mother Tokens is far more lucrative in terms of time/investiment than exchanging for Granny Tokens.

What you would need Granny Tokens for is 3 Things atm: Rank up to 5 and 2 Weapons, totalizing 60 Granny. But those can be farmed with Mother Tokens alone, it will take more time for sure, but after that? You will be stockpiling or using on cosmetics.

From my perspective? We did not get "less grind" with Deimos, but we did not get "more grind" either. Unless you consider "more grind" = "more things to do in a different area"

As far as I'm concerned: it went sideways.

Deimos actually has a lot less grind. I was running mining for whole hour and got only 6 Necropotence(sorry don’t remember name of that gem, but I hope you got what I mean) , while later I got 4 for few minutes doing that... Obelisk thing? Where you need kill enemy with void damage. And that’s awesome thing.
Also vaults, gave so much resources that you barely need to grind it( mostly common, but still) . 
Yet we gain much more reputation for SP bounties than in other open worlds. 

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9 hours ago, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

I havent touched Warframe in nearly 2 years because its gotten too grind heavy and too much needless grind. I watch youtubers play it and again even they are tired of the excessive grind and overall not being able to have fun with the game anymore on top of there is no real endgame with Warframe and no real rewards worth it.

Well, I think we can boil the entire post down to these two points. 

You haven't played in two years, but you are upset about the current state of the game. 

Your only source of information is YouTube, where people practically need to be extremely over the top, in order to get views to pay their bills, and being a YouTube edgelord is a lot easier and more profitable than saying that you really enjoy something. Why do you think that so many "social media influencers" are such complete drama llamas? That's the same reason your favorite youtubers are doing it. 

 

Now.... The real question is, why are you even watching that trash if you haven't played in years? 

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For a game I paid for, I feel like I own the content. So I can use cheats or run a server or do whatever I want in it.

For a f2p it's sort of their rules and their property, where I have to pay with my time instead through grinding. Plus, there is simply no way to release enough content to have every second of gameplay be something new.

That said of course yes it does come down to what people are willing to put up with everything else aside. And they will always try to push it in their direction.

The way I coped with the grind in warframe is always trying to batch as many tasks or rewards into one map or session, so I am always getting something out of it. Then for the parts that I personally found terrible I watch tv on another screen while playing.

Another example is buying something like mods from other players that have extra versus having to grind everything individually and manually. Aslong as there are options.

Or how you are able to convert relic trash to ducats, you still getting at least something and you have options. I feel that works great in warframe. I have not originally felt cheated.

What gets to me is when stuff is forced on you with only one option. Like for instance forcing people to fish, mine etc for the helminth system, or having to go down to a planet to build a frame, where everything you get there is otherwrise useless and takes time away from earning meaningful rewards.

4 different grinds inside a grind, giving me resources on RNG that are pointless to me versus traditional play that would always drop at least something.

You gotta go fish to earn the level 3 laser to get the special bait for the magic fish to get the level 2 fishing pole, all pointless items that just wasted my time.

I might somehow be able to accept planet-grinding if the payout was on par with traditional gameplay, as much as I would stlil hate the actual gameplay of it.

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Idk if i should even respond really,if you barely play the game or didnt play warframe for a long time,You get the "you dont know any better" treatment,If you played the game and tried maybe a lil bit more and didnt liked the stuff you tried then you are "burned out" so basically any kind of opinion that even a lil against warframe falls behind wet ears.

While warframe isnt as grindy as other MMOs assigning low rng to stuff that isnt supposed to be rare or mandatory stuff is a bit of no imo(necramech mods *cough*)

I dont like open worlds but i did tried at least some or had a taste of almost everything in poe and fortuna,forced myself to get rank 5 fortuna becuase i got bored and some people say that profit taker is too chaotic or good and i was like "ok ill try this",

Effing boring ass debt buying from ticker who sometimes doesnt bring the debts you need for few days or more and the dumb conservations which i stopped after 5 perfect of these,profit taker was nothing but a mess that forces you to have meta archgun and chroma which felt like a waste basically,tried in pub and beat it first time in pub,Then never touched it again.

Did a cetus grind to rank 5 too which i heavily regret lol.

I saw deimos Tried some of the stuff then just ran away fast becuase i couldnt stomech anymore of this open world stuff and im not in the mood to force myself thru it and the mech bounty just has too much of a long waiting phase inbetween and like replaying this things hundreds of times to just build a mech with like maybe few mods if you are lucky is really not for me,after i completed steel path on my sec acc(I lost my first)mostly solo which had like no forma warframe and even no potato warframes i quited,

Not sure if for a while or forever if de will not have anything that will interest me it might be forever.

I dont like Warframe Open Worlds much,they might have good ideas inbetween but as far as it goes i dont really see them get good ever imo,the concept of giant mega boss is cool tho even if incredibly flawed.

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2 hours ago, SpiritTeA said:

Deimos is still the best open world mission in term of grind. 2 SP bounties and you get all the daily standing.

Yep it's full of bugs, but they rarely game breaking. Boring yes, bounties are pretty boring, but mostly that one with corpus guy.

Necramech is terrible, because you have to read wiki to know where to get 2nd and 3d vaults. However when you know this ,  things become very easy, takes me around 40 minutes to clear all 3 vaults solo with mediocre build on ignis. But when actually DE explained anything in their game, huh?

I don't doubt that the warframe wiki has a very comprehensive guide now (several weeks post-release), or that there are now several videos on whatever video site you prefer which show optimal strategies.

The problem is that I have to do this in the first place. If I didn't have a hard time limit, I'd have no issue with exploring a bit to find where this vault actually is. The complete lack of information as to how I start the next vault is still a problem, and the godawful "wait 5 minutes, then wait another 5, then kill the BS mech, then wait another 5 minutes" is incredibly off-putting.

The game has been constantly adding more and more and more little things which piss me off. Each and every one of them reduces my tolerance for BS, fractal grind and un-necessary busywork. All these things put together make me never want to see another vault mission again. Fortunately, I don't have to.

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I think it's worth acknowledging at this point that a lot of what gets said in the dev streams is mostly just idle talk, or at least stuff that the devs may or may not follow up on, because they may change their mind the following day. Talk of making the game less grindy was likely one such instance, and an attempt to appease certain unhappy players in the immediate short term. Over time, unfortunately, it seems DE have grown fearful of declining player numbers, and have been doubling down on old habits in an attempt to retain players for longer, namely by padding content out through grinding. The problem, though, is that this has only made the decline worse, because older players desperate for genuine improvements to the game have been burning out, whereas newer players often get so confused and intimidated by the multiple layers of grind that many quit early on. In turn, this has caused DE to try padding out their game with even more grind, and so the cycle continues. Deimos in particular I think is the result of a complete disconnect with the playerbase or anything resembling a player perspective, as the overly tokenized confusopoly of Necralisk currencies doesn't even do a good job of hiding the massive grinding requirements needed to progress through the main syndicate and get the rewards. It's for this reason that I've been intentionally distancing myself and limiting my time spent on the game at the moment, as I know that I'd quickly burn out if I were to commit to this new grind wholesale.

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Breaking news: They lied. DE does not want a less grindy game. DE pushes the grind higher and higher every patch to see how many people they can retain with their newest hollow content. Deimos was a few cool ideas that got exploded into an epic grind for minimal gain. DE loves it and won't ever stop.

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Less grind =/= No grind.

34 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Breaking news: They lied. DE does not want a less grindy game. DE pushes the grind higher and higher every patch to see how many people they can retain with their newest hollow content. Deimos was a few cool ideas that got exploded into an epic grind for minimal gain. DE loves it and won't ever stop.

Yet, as others have already said in this very thread, Deimos is the least grindy of the open worlds by far.

Perhaps you should hire better journalists.

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18 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Yet, as others have already said in this very thread, Deimos is the least grindy of the open worlds by far.

It's 100% not though. The necramech rare mod grind is by far the worst acquisition rate they've ever introduced into the game. Having played all 3 open worlds at release, I fully feel deimos was the most hollow experience of the 3. I still havent gotten any rare necramech mods because the grind for it is insane and incredibly unrewarding. I would absolutely love for you to argue that DE's release trend has been towards reducing grind rather than increasing it, because you know, bliss. Liches would be the nail in the coffin for any argument.

18 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Perhaps you should hire better journalists.

Damn... Good one.

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it was just a lie from the beginning, perhaps to make them seem like a "nice developer", all DE ever did was add more and more ridiculous grind into the game the last few years.

it was just an empty promise, the typical thing. 1 hour of content with 99 hours of grind is not 100 hours of content.

 

 DE didn't learn from their failures in liches, railjack, and soon deimos.

Just look at how little people bother with farming liches and railjack these days (excluding when nora throws it in nightwave), why? It is because people play the game because it is fun, not because they want to grind hours in a boring game mode. When the grind is too much, instead of having players spend more time on the "new content" (which it isn't, since it is just mindless grind), we have casual players who opt out of it as well as tryhards burning themselves out and never ever revisiting it because they are beyond sick of it from experiencing the full grind.

 

Fortuna and plains grind was a lot more fair in comparison even at release. Deimos, is an absolutely horrible grindfest, with multiple measures added in to slow players progress as much as possible, even if it means adding frustrations 

 

As someone who likes playing mmo (which tends to have nasty grinds), the grind for deimos was rather... terrible. It simply wasn't fun, having to grind content that isn't fun over and over brings a bad experience, add in all the bugs, rng and "slowing measures" and we have frustrations and burnouts.

 

Instead of grinding deimos, I ended up going for at least 3 runs of Steel Path ophelia ranging from 2-5 hours in the first week of deimo's release. The fact that I would rather spend time camping a room in survival than to farm for more things in deimos goes on to show how little fun there is to deimos.

 

 

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