Melee is OP but I still use guns more because I find them more fun

[Guybrush88]

This is just my personal opinion, but I don't think guns need to be buffed or that melee needs to be nerfed

Yes, melee is more powerful in general. However pretty much any average gun that is decently modded will still easily kill 90% of the <level 100 star chart enemies.

From my personal observations, when it comes to Level 110 and below regular star chart mobs, the time to kill between using "regular" melee and "regular" guns are very comparable. By "regular" I'm excluding AoE weapons, example: glaives and launchers. In fact, when it comes to regular star chart mods, warframe powers are easily more OP than almost all melee and guns.

I also find that the best melee builds constantly being promoted by online guides aren't actually that fun or practical to use. Bloodrush, Weeping Wounds, Condition Overload are powerful, but if you're running a regular capture, exterminate or rescue mission, its more practical to run Sacrificial Steel, Dual Stat elemental/status mods and Primed Pressure Point.

Max DPS melee builds are pretty much only practical in steel path or >30min endurance runs which I'm guessing is only a very small percentage of missions actually played

I believe end of the day, most players will use the weapons that are powerful enough to kill and at the same time are fun and enjoyable to use.

I enjoy using guns and blowing S#&amp;&#036; up so I'm gonna stick to using guns despite melee having more DPS

Some players want to use the "Highest DPS crazy RED CRIT" builds that do 10x the enemies EHP in damage. If that is what they enjoy then good for them

I rather DE spend their time coming up with more fun and enjoyable weapons, with unique mechanics and new play styles, instead of buffing/nerfing exiting weapons

If we go down the lazy path of MORE DPS = MORE FUN, then I foresee future weapons all just being reskinned old weapons with higher stats

 

 

[ZeroX4]

11 minutes ago, Guybrush88 said:

This is just my personal opinion, but I don't think guns need to be buffed or that melee needs to be nerfed

Yes, melee is more powerful in general. However pretty much any average gun that is decently modded will still easily kill 90% of the <level 100 star chart enemies.

From my personal observations, when it comes to Level 110 and below regular star chart mobs, the time to kill between using "regular" melee and "regular" guns are very comparable. By "regular" I'm excluding AoE weapons, example: glaives and launchers. In fact, when it comes to regular star chart mods, warframe powers are easily more OP than almost all melee and guns.

I also find that the best melee builds constantly being promoted by online guides aren't actually that fun or practical to use. Bloodrush, Weeping Wounds, Condition Overload are powerful, but if you're running a regular capture, exterminate or rescue mission, its more practical to run Sacrificial Steel, Dual Stat elemental/status mods and Primed Pressure Point.

Max DPS melee builds are pretty much only practical in steel path or >30min endurance runs which I'm guessing is only a very small percentage of missions actually played

I believe end of the day, most players will use the weapons that are powerful enough to kill and at the same time are fun and enjoyable to use.

I enjoy using guns and blowing S#&amp;&#036; up so I'm gonna stick to using guns despite melee having more DPS

Some players want to use the "Highest DPS crazy RED CRIT" builds that do 10x the enemies EHP in damage. If that is what they enjoy then good for them

I rather DE spend their time coming up with more fun and enjoyable weapons, with unique mechanics and new play styles, instead of buffing/nerfing exiting weapons

If we go down the lazy path of MORE DPS = MORE FUN, then I foresee future weapons all just being reskinned old weapons with higher stats

 

 

Whole point of their eventual buff or nerf is not because 1 is better than other but because ppl use 1 more than other
Idea is to make ppl use both not just favorize one

[Fallen77]

Well good for you if you're having fun with guns, but they are MILES from being comparable in any way to any properly built melee.

They're not slightly stronger than guns, they are overwhelmingly stronger than guns, on another level.

And nobody uses level 100 basic starchart exterminate to gage power levels of gear, of course BR/WW/CO builds are not gonna be optimal against ennemies that can be one shot by every weapon in the game, and of course you're not gonna see much of a difference between guns and melee there.

[Guybrush88]

18 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

Whole point of their eventual buff or nerf is not because 1 is better than other but because ppl use 1 more than other
Idea is to make ppl use both not just favorize one

I haven't seen any game play usage stats showing significantly more usage of Melee vs Guns. Do let me know if these stats can be viewed anywhere

[Yamazuki]

Just now, Guybrush88 said:

I haven't seen any game play usage stats showing significantly more usage of Melee vs Guns. Do let me know if these stats can be viewed anywhere

That's because they are wrong. Melee is only used primarily by a minority that either likes melee or is doing endless runs. For the average person, they're spamming the usual aoe weapons that dominate usage statistics.

Melee vs gun changes aren't even tied to usage, and entirely because content creators complained.

[ReddyDisco]

Don't you know you're using guns and not melee that is 100 times stronger noob! just look at xyz video on YouTube and you'll understand

/s

 

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Yamazuki:

That's because they are wrong. Melee is only used primarily by a minority that either likes melee or is doing endless runs. For the average person, they're spamming the usual aoe weapons that dominate usage statistics.

Melee vs gun changes aren't even tied to usage, and entirely because content creators complained.

Yupp. I don't complain about it. I can't wait to spam SP with my buffed aoe guns without having to take care of enemy armor anymore on higher levels. After a few months people who run around with their Rubico in SP, insisting on single target being their goto and that it must be just as viable as everything and everywhere instead of switching to another weapon type, will just start to complain about aoe abilities and/or aoe guns instead of melee.

I said it multiple times. Single target weapons and single target abilities can get their damage buffed by a million percent and I'd still use weapons and abilities that hit multiple enemies through walls over them most of the time since a million percent more damage against a single mob will rarely matter if I can one-shot multiple enemies with aoe damage.

I'd really like to know the percentile of players who regularily stay that long in (SP) endurance missions and are actually "affected" by where the whole melee meta OP complaints come from. I'd guess it's in the single digits.

[Tsoe]

simple buff for guns would be give all guns combo headshoot multiplier and weak spot combo multiplier

 

and be sure all ennemies and faction (i am looking at you infested) got weakspots

 

 

 

[lukinu_u]

Il y a 1 heure, Guybrush88 a dit :

Max DPS melee builds are pretty much only practical in steel path or >30min endurance runs which I'm guessing is only a very small percentage of missions actually played

You can max your combo counter in less than a second on a small enemy group if you they don't die too fast, and if they actually die (which generally happens) you don't need to max your combo.
The sad thing about combo based mods is the fact they are always enough at the level you use them but can grow stronger, which invalidated all other possible setup.

As for the main topic (gun VS melee), the thing is you should use both for maximum benefits, which just make this comparison meaningless. Sure there will be people prefering one or the other depending on their preference, playstyle or other things, but you have to keep in mind one will benefit from the other and this is how the game should be balanced : Encouraging people to use them because they completement each other, and brings as much build diversity as possible from there.

[Guybrush88]

51 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

Well good for you if you're having fun with guns, but they are MILES from being comparable in any way to any properly built melee.

They're not slightly stronger than guns, they are overwhelmingly stronger than guns, on another level.

 

Are you saying melee is 2x 5x 10x or 100x more powerful than guns?

Lets assume they are 10x more powerful

When I do Sortie, Kuva Flood, Max Level Kuva Lich or Fissure Kuva Survival for 60mins, my guns are very capable of killing the enemies. So being able to do 10x damage wont make a whole lot of difference

 

51 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

And nobody uses level 100 basic starchart exterminate to gage power levels of gear, of course BR/WW/CO builds are not gonna be optimal against ennemies that can be one shot by every weapon in the game, and of course you're not gonna see much of a difference between guns and melee there.

I not saying they are a gauge of power levels. I'm saying that for probably 90% of the gameplay happening in warframe, the power difference doesnt make any practical difference. Enemy with 5k Effective Health will die all the same whether you do 5k, 50k or 500k damage to them.

 

 

Let me repeat again, I'm saying YES I agree there is a very obvious power level difference in between melee and guns. What I'm trying to add to the discussion is that the power difference doesn't really matter for the vast majority of game play happening out there. The power difference is only meaningful in niche high level endurance/SP gameplay.

 

Let me pose this question to everyone: Do you think guns strong enough for normal starchart content?

If your answer is YES, then consider this: If we buff guns just because they under-perform in SP for the maybe 5% of players that play SP, then wont guns end up being OP for the regular missions being played by the rest of the 95%?

If your answer is NO, then I'd be curious to know why as well

[Guybrush88]

44 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

Don't you know you're using guns and not melee that is 100 times stronger noob! just look at xyz video on YouTube and you'll understand

/s

 

I cant find the channel/video you are referring to. What's the content creator's name or channel name?

[ReddyDisco]

2 minutes ago, Guybrush88 said:

I cant find the channel/video you are referring to. What's the content creator's name or channel name?

was being sarcastic, hence the /s 

[Yamazuki]

23 minutes ago, Guybrush88 said:

I cant find the channel/video you are referring to. What's the content creator's name or channel name?

The dev stream where this was brought up mentions some of them.

This isn't the first time DE listened to them over the concerns of the majority. Some mods and previous questionable decisions were made entirely due to listening to either one person, or content creators. DE for example provided a mod to disable Vacuum while Titania has Razorwing active because one of them was exceedingly vocal and toxic about it being forced on, meanwhile, extra Vacuum range is still not here; all while DE keeps trying to remove basic functionality anytime they introduce alternative "tools" to Warframes [Operator, Necramechs, Rail Jack].

[Sovyul]

Name those guns

[DrBorris]

In the majority of relevant content a gun can kill an enemy before the melee player can get to said enemy. In the Simulacrum against lvl 180 Corrupted Bombards Melee wins the DPS race, but that is rarely a situation that presents itself in game. In everything up to Sorties the delta in damage between (good) guns and melee is irrelevant because they both effectively one-shot. Steel Path is the only "designed" content where the gap between melee and guns is really felt, your three hour endurance runs are irrelevant.

This is not to say balance shouldn't happen, for the sake of future content having the different weapon classes be so extremely different will prove problematic. However I do feel a bit of concern that they are using the weapons that have their balance level far outside the scope of the game over the weapons that most content was originally designed around.

 

People seem to forget. Guns were never nerfed, on the contrary they were significantly buffed with the first Warframe Revised. A nerfed version of Boltor Prime used to be the god killer of Warframe. Melee power-creep'd guns ten-fold, that doesn't mean that melee necessarily needs to be nerfed, but I think that it is important to remember how we got here when discussing the topic and be a bit less emotional about "nerfs".

[_Anise_]

I like range caster frames, those usually compliment guns, cast ability on enemies, shoot into enemies! 1 2 done

melee is just way too spammy for me slash slash slash ability slash slash slash slash slash slash slash, its probably why I also hate octavia for crouch spam even though she is probably THE most broken powerful warframe in the game.

[ZeroX4]

3 hours ago, Guybrush88 said:

I haven't seen any game play usage stats showing significantly more usage of Melee vs Guns. Do let me know if these stats can be viewed anywhere

Me neither

But ive seen ppl commenting about it on forum pasting some dev streams where they mention that exact issue providing a cause that is that players favorize one over another

I dont watch dev stream so i cant tell u which it was (but one of the latest) u really wanna know what its all about go watch some dev streams and waste your time on something that is obvious for everyone

[ebrl]

2 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

The dev stream where this was brought up mentions some of them.

This isn't the first time DE listened to them over the concerns of the majority. Some mods and previous questionable decisions were made entirely due to listening to either one person, or content creators. DE for example provided a mod to disable Vacuum while Titania has Razorwing active because one of them was exceedingly vocal and toxic about it being forced on, meanwhile, extra Vacuum range is still not here; all while DE keeps trying to remove basic functionality anytime they introduce alternative "tools" to Warframes [Operator, Necramechs, Rail Jack].

The Warframe community has a serious problem of both relying too much on content creators (because of the myth that it is too complicated to learn by yourself) and also said content creators being generally pretty bad at the game (which is not surprising since it is one of the easiest games out there, where you can do nearly everything wrong and still succeed, which leads to never getting rid of bad habits, and deflecting any criticism with some variation of "but it works").

DE valuing these opinions so highly is unfortunate, but also unavoidable with how such a game works these days. Content creators are a stronger driving force for generating attention and keeping players engaged in the long run than anything a developer can do by themselves. Streamer culture was a mistake, but what can we do? That ship has sailed long ago.

[Hypernaut1]

Next popular youtuber complaint- "melee is pointless! Why should I melee when my teammate clear the room with their aoe weapons?!! Buff melee so I have a reason to use it!"

Also- "steel path is as easy as star chart now! Where's the challenge DE?"

 

 

[ReddyDisco]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

"steel path is as easy as star chart now! Where's the change DE?"

i'm 99.9999999659% sure this will pop up soon

[fatpig84]

Tanky frames / cloak frames can leverage on their abilities and literally wade into it with their melee and be utterly rewarded for it.

However, you only see such gains in Steel path.

[0_The_F00l]

That's good for you OP for having fun , you should stick to it and not follow others just cause they are chasing bigger numbers.

But the purpose is more than fun for you as an individual player.

It is about justifying investment of the Devs for all the assets they make as well.

If players only use a single weapon cause it is too powerful there is little reason to spend plat or resources on other weapons. And so there is lesser revenue for DE to stay afloat. And DE can't keep introducing powercreep (wish they had realised it sooner) to keep selling New S#&amp;&#036; cause they need to sell the old S#&amp;&#036; too.

[(PSN)Shelneroth]

It's important guns and melee are balanced relative to one another if the game is to have any form of challenging content. If it's balanced around the weaker play style it isn't really a challenge. If it's balanced around the stronger play style there comes a point where the weaker is unuseable. 

[Guybrush88]

I've tried to sum up the current argument for balancing:

1. Melee is much more powerful than guns

2. No one uses guns anymore

Conclusion: Guns need to be buffed

While "1" is true, I feel "2" is false. I haven't seen any usage stats on it, but I see other players in my pub squad using guns all the time.

 

My point of view:

1. For level 1-60 content, "effective" power level is pretty much equal (AoE guns probably have and even highest effective DPS than melee)

2. For level 60-120 content, melee starts to be a bit more effective though probably only significantly noticeable on heavy units in higher levels

3. Guns are powerful enough to deal with regular starchart content up to level 120+/- which I'm guessing is >90% of the actual gameplay out there

Conclusion: For regular content, the power difference is not significant and guns are good enough, so players will still use guns 

 

Since SP and high level endurance runs are still niche game play, having 1 type of weapon being favored over all others is understandable and to be expected. I don't think DE should make sweeping changes to the entire game just because there is an imbalance affecting a niche 10% of the game.

That would be like saying that because sniper rifles are significantly more powerful that shotguns in Eidolon hunts, and that no one uses shotguns in Eidolon hunts, therefore all shotguns need to be buffed to balance it out

 

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

I also, use guns instead of melee because I find them to be More Fun

Not disagreeing with that Fun aspect

 

the problem is, that I Can't use them, if my melee spamming squadmates kill everything First.

I end up being unable to keep up, and that's Not Fun.

 

So, I do think there needs to be a buff or some other kind of rebalancing...

 

or I could just play Solo all the time but that's kinda lame