Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

8 minutes ago, Petroklos said:

Is the logic of "We need more Damage against Heavy Enemy Units, so we kill Lite Units to get the power needed for the aforementioned Heavy Units" too hard to follow?

Lite Unit < Base Damage < Medium Unit < Some Galvanized Damage < Heavy Unit < Full Galvanized Damage

Simple enough?

Do you play multiplayer? If so good luck getting buffs. But wait you have to nerf yourself first.

simple enough eh? 

[(PSN)waterdog77]

It's Comfirmed Crit Shotguns and Bows were forgotten with this workshop.

[Petroklos]

6 minutes ago, megamino said:

wait hold on, if you mean OVERALL BUILD... yes correct but we are talking about invididual primary and / or secondary build... can you kill it without any buff from chroma? That's what we are talking about right? Not just overall build meta using specific kinds of warframe and specifics arcane or whatever build...

Am i missing a point here? What is this dev workshop want to tackle man???

I'm talking Gun Builds. No Warframe Buffs. There's some Guns that are frankly incapable of even dealing with Level 80 Content without Rivens and/or external buffs, but most Guns, with the correct Builds, are fully capable of taking down Light and usually Medium Units in Steel Path.

From there the Galvanized Mods should take our Damage the rest of the way needed to kill any Heavy Unit available and also significantly reducing TTKs on all other Units.

I still doubt that they'll be able to out-do Melees when it comes to Solo Steel Path, but in every other setting these Mods might be more than enough.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

1 minute ago, Xydeth said:

this.

i actually didnt know youtube would do more than just inform about the content.

now it really demands age confirmation via credit card or passport scan....imagine.....

 

Yo how the fudge? Is this an US only rule that you need to give your more personal information instead of just putting your age or something

[Katinka]

18 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

You’ll be able to get the Arcane Slot Unlockers from Steel Path Honors

Not sure I like the need for slot unlockers.  While it adds a Steel Essence sink which I acknowledge gives players a reason to keep engaging with Steel Path, I fear it will discourage people from experimenting with different weapons if trying out Arcanes on a new weapon means spending a precious resource.  But I guess you folks know better than I what kind of levels of Essence people stockpile...  I just hope the slot unlockers aren't so expensive that I wont feel comfortable throwing them on anything and everything that might be fun.

Edit:  We now know they'll be 15 Essence.  With the reward for dailies going up to 5 and the Acolytes arriving sooner I think I'm okay with that.

[(PSN)EmilsTekcor]

Honestly I feel like you could make a mod that gives guns chaining. So the nerf to the kuva nukor could be made up by sacrificing a mod slot.

[fakeplayerr]

1 hour ago, Argon-Queen said:

 

So we have to play through the late game content, to get mods, so our guns don't suck at late game content? Wont that just promote the same 'E your way through steel path' issue? The very thing you are giving us these mods to stop doing?

Exacty, if you dont want to play high level content, you are not forced to do so. Those changes or new mods dont apply to lower stuff. They can be played with whatever wep and mods really. I see no problems here. 

[DaDigDude]

1 hour ago, (PSN)DabsInTears-_- said:

Yay.. Attack speed will be even more meta now. PepeLaugh

Laughs in Wisp

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

Dammit. Now I gotta go to steel path to try & earn enough to actually get these mods.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Sad about Glaive Throw Timing increase

the extra delay is gonna mess with my flow personally

and no, i never had a problem with 'accidentally throwing my glaive'

why would I ever Not Want to Throw in the first place?

[Petroklos]

6 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Is it though? These new  buffs are almost certainly additive, and with Sponge Path doing its thing, having maybe 200% net outputs from galva-stacks and arcanes is still not putting much of a dent in the discrepancy between a Corrupt Butcher and a CHG.

That I can't be sure of. On a quick glance the numbers look solid, but I won't know until I get my hand on them. Don't forget that Condition Overload and Bloodrush are additive as well and they're doing wonders for Melee.

My main problem with the proposed stuff is how hard it will be to test them out.
Several 14 Capacity 10 Rank Mods, for the already capacity-starved and cramped Primary and Secondary Builds.
Several Arcanes, seemingly Rank 5 ones, so 21 Arcanes needed, for 6 Sets, dropping at random.

[(PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO]

2 minutes ago, acevezwing said:

It's hard to tell if it's good without testing but so far my gripe is Berserker's On Kill condition. It's going to be tricky to maintain the buff against hard to kill target especially with its duration nerfed to 10 seconds. But then again it needs field tests.

While it's hard for me to accept the change from On Crit to On Kill, the nerf to its duration is really appalling.

It's Cool u just have to use your melee every 10 seconds to kill, that will make us use our melee less and guns more . 

[Sanchezjoax]

hace 1 hora, LupoDWolf dijo:

The multishot mods are weird. Rifles are barely negative to absurdly better, while the others are bad to ok, this should be look at

Its because other weapon types have way better multishot mods already. What I dont get at all is why there is no Shotgun Critical Chance mod...

[Damocles]

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Berserker is changing from:

+30% Attack Speed (Max 75%) for 24s on Critical Hit
 

To:

Beserker Fury, cannot stack with Fury.
On Melee Kill:
+35% Attack Speed (Max 70%)  for 10s. Stacks up to 2x. 

 

This is important because:

- It decouples it from Critical Chance.
- Adds a more defined ramp up using ‘On Kill’ instead of On Crit (which frequently meant 0 to ‘Max’ in one swing hitting 3 enemies).
- Renamed to Berserker Fury to communicate that it can no longer be equipped with Fury / Primed Fury. 

This looks good and acceptable, except for the fact you can no longer use this mod in a boss fight where there's pretty much only 1 enemy (the boss) and you're not killing 2 of them anytime soon.

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Blood Rush is changing from:
+60% Critical Chance stacks with Combo Multiplier

To

+40% Critical Chance stacks with Combo Multiplier

Okay... 1/3 nerf is not the end of the world. To those who are not Engineers, this went from 660% to 440%. Your melee will no longer hit red crits

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Condition Overload is changing from:
+120% Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target.

To

+80% Melee Damage per Status Type affecting the target. 

If you used to combine this mod with Blood Rush, you should now know that the same weapon will now do roughly 4/9 times the damage. That's simply how retaining 2/3 and compounding 2/3 works in math.

 

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

That said, our two changes to Glaives go hand in hand: 

 

First, the heavy attack wind-up speed is being increased from 0.6 seconds to 1.2 seconds. With more time on the wind-up, it is much harder to accidentally throw when you are trying to swing.

 

With this increased wind-up speed, players are also more capable of performing quick throws. Right now the damage on quick throws is very close to fully charged, so in order to encourage more meaningful choice, our second change is to reduce quick throw damage to approximately 50% of the maximum charge. Exact number changes are as follows:

depending on how it feels fully modded, this could potentially kill the weapon category again. Not sure why DE is so intent on killing good things in their game. Had it just been a 50% damage reduction, it would make sense, but making it slower and changing the mechanics so it feels sluggish in a fast paced game could quite literally make the weapon useable.

 

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Kuva Nukor

 

We are indeed touching 1 non-Melee item in the series of Nerfs, and likely to no one’s surprise it’s the Kuva Nukor. It’s a dominant Secondary with incredible power, which is warranted given its acquisition. It’ll keep all of its signature behaviour, but the general output is being notched down slightly with the following change:
- Chains targets reduced to 2 from 4

I don't think DE knows why Nukor is good and how their own gun works. This gun literally works on corpses, and in some cases works as separate beams. This nerf won't change anything unless they fixed the possibly unintended behavior with the kuva nukor as well.

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are going to start with the biggest change: You can now add Arcane Slots (name not final) to your Primary and Secondary weapons, and fill the Slots with new Arcanes that enhance and reward diverse gameplay. 

I think I suggested this many years ago. I hope this also moves certain existing gun related arcanes too.

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

PRIMARY MERCILESS

On Kill:
+30% Damage for 6s. Stacks up to 12x.
+30% Reload Speed
+100% Ammo Max

The more you kill, the more damage you can build up. Groovy!
 

The second Primary Arcane is designed with high precision weapons in mind. Make your Headshots count for greater performance (excluding AOE headshots)!:

PRIMARY DEADHEAD

On Headshot Kill:
120% Damage for 24s. Stacks up to 3x.
+30% to Headshot Multiplier.
-50% Weapon Recoil

 

The final Primary Arcane is designed with using your full loadout in mind, enter Melee synergy:

PRIMARY DEXTERITY

On Melee Kill: +60% Damage for 20s. Stacks up to 6x.

These arcanes look great in terms of numbers, but it assumes we achieved the first couple kills. Merciless wont work if it takes us roughly 8 seconds to kill something, so already DeadHead is better than Mericless. Since Melee scales better than weapons before arcanes, Dexterity will be better on higher level missions to level 9999 survival.

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

The general approach to these Galvanized Mods is that the unconditional upgrade is not quite as good as the non-Galvanized original, but the On Kill conditional increases them well above and beyond what is available with ‘conventional’ Mods in your Arsenal. These will be available from Teshin’s Steel Path Honors. 

There's no Galvanized Blunderbuss here (the community really wants a better blunderbuss, not tactical pump), and good luck fitting in 14 cost on Galvanized Acceleration

 

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Any Player who owns a Kuva Nukor will receive an extra 2 x Built Forma.

Sounds great, but any intention for increasing the riven disposition instead? The problem with buffs/nerfs/changes is that Riven system is really decoupled from it. I believe DE staff is insensitive to the fact that bad disposition rivens on certain weapons do worse than an existing mod, (melee being an exception where the riven acts a straight up bonus at even 0.5 disposition) and that a weapon can be strong regardless of using/not using rivens, as was the case with Kuva Nukor and Catchmoon pre-KIA mechanics. On the opposite end of the spectrum, 1.5 disposition rivens on a bad weapon would give 300%+ stats on a weapon with 5-10% base, which in other words mean it still doesn't catch up to the better weapons using regular mods anyway. I think the riven dispositions should stop being a "weapon balancer" set all dispositions to some common value, and let players determine value through acquisition and feel instead.

In another note, have you considered simply adding a universal damage multiplier per weapon as a replacement to disposition nerfs/buffs? This addresses your damage/popularity concerns, while not affect the behavior of weapons which receive a variable speed and range from rivens.

[Crossfire78]

You do realize you double (maybe even tripple) nerfed Melee and with that sooo much more than you let it sound like?

I use Dual Blades and how the current mods are, I can reach red crits only with Decontructor, otherwise i have yellow and orange.

Thanks to your changes i fear i will be able to only orange with deconstructor, which sucks in SP cuz Helios dies in the first 10 min but hey... y'all have no interest in a meaningful companion overhaul and instead just react on something a youtuber showed off...

If you at least would have changed the mods so they fit their melee class better but nope... general change because!

And then you put Arcanes onn primaries and secondaries?

So just another Exilus slot Melee users are begging you for for years now?

Also, will kitguns now have 2 arcane slots?

Or did you "overlook" that yet again?

You effed the glaive rework and now everybody has to suffer cuz you can't go back there?

 

Not looking forward to that update... not one bit :-(

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Melee Attack Speed

 

So.... Guessing my Lesion Rivens are going to be worth more soon?

(Lesion has an innate attack speed buff on status procs, another source of Speed which will presumably be worth more now that berserker/fury won't stack)

[Tyranny.of.Fun]

I can't see the video due to age restrictions so if any of these are addressed there, oh well.

The amount of 'on kill' conditionals in this is making me sad, because it has the fundamental problem that your weapon needs to be strong enough to kill something to get the buff that makes it stronger. Of course, there is the scenario where you perhaps weaken something with frame powers or use headshots to get the buffs rolling and then get your murder on but the margin where your gun is too weak without buffs but strong enough with them is fairly thin and not even Steel Path has problems with clearing mooks even with current mods.

The further problem is that gun modded like this is then actually worse against the boss type of enemies (boss being any super tough individual enemy, not just assassination targets). Even if there is a guaranteed stream of mooks to kill (and quite few of them have few or even none), you now have to spend time hunting them down instead of focusing on the important enemy so you are still doing less damage.

What does Kill even mean in this context, is it literally just the killing blow or does it activate if you damage an enemy and someone else kills it? Because if it's the former, than you actually have made killstealing a thing suddenly, please don't do that.

I would strongly prefer if the 'On Kill' conditional was in general changed to something else, even 'On Hit'. If it absolutely needs to be on enemies dying, then maybe make it count all enemies dying within affinity range. While that would still be somewhat problematic against bosses, at least it would mean that having a Saryn or some other warcrimeframe in your team was a boon instead of just a permanent loss of those buffs. Perhaps boss type enemies should in general proc 'On Kill' effects either after certain amount of hits or certain hp loss.

 

Arcanes:

Other than the above problem, these have the problem that they are really boring. Straight up +damage is the most boring stat to have, at least skyhigh multishot would give something nice to look at, and while I understand that these particularly are meant to boost the damage of guns, I would have preferred +reload speed or ammo efficiency because there's already few guns that are perfectly fine damagewise but spend so much time reloading that it's better to just use a sword. In general I feel that Arcanes should have some sort of conditionality like that; reload speed, aoe heal, stun enemies that get close and other such things rather than generic damage boost meant to be kept up perpetually.

Also the 6s buff duration on Merciless is significantly too short, sure it's similar to combo duration but melee only needs to slap something to keep the count up which is often significantly easier than actually getting a kill.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cash201293 said:

Dammit. Now I gotta go to steel path to try & earn enough to actually get these mods.

No you don’t. The mods you have outside of steel path are still better. They don’t require you to nerf yourself or a condition to use.

[Helioview]

While Im a fan of most of the changes, I really don't agree with some of them. Why do the primary and secondary arcanes have to be separate? The stats are the same, so why make us grind more? Even for just one full set of primary or secondary arcanes needing 63 total, why must we grind out two for what's going to become an essential? This just seems insane to me. Having to grind 126 arcanes for the new change is ridiculous. I also don't understand why we need to have another adapter to put arcanes on. This one really sits wrong with me, as I'm already not the biggest fan of exilus adapaters. The fact that we now also need to get what I assume is going to be another 20 extra plat into our weapon if we don't have one is incredibly scummy. It's penny pinching your players and doesn't sit well with me.  I also just really don't get the glaive nerfs, were they truly overperforming that well that it was necessary?

[Messiah_of_Rodents]

It feels strange to gate all of the primary buffs behind arcanes and steel path as this only affects players who have access to those. Newer players will now be presented with "Guns are way worse than melee until you play a few hundred more hours and then the compete" Also just make serration innate if you are going to add more interesting mods to boost damage.

[Attel_Malagate]

il y a 3 minutes, (XBOX)Cash201293 a dit :

Dammit. Now I gotta go to steel path to try & earn enough to actually get these mods.

SP will 100% be dead within 3 months once everyone is done farming, most of SP will still be dead because none in their right mind wants to paly SP disruption and the like when you could just farm essence on endless.

It also wont address the fact that objectively, SP is less desirable in 90% of cases compared to regular missions in terms of rewards.

[(PSN)ExplosiveEric]

I find the changes, overall, great.  

Some of the new mods and arcanes will reward skilled players.  
The melee mod changes aren’t too painful, melee will probably still be meta. 

A few of these changes seem targeted at players that just leech or hide in corners. These are the changes I welcome!

My only gripe is having to unlock the arcane slot for each gun. I hope they cost a reasonable amount of steel essence. Otherwise, it will be a heavy grind to be able to try multiple guns.

[Gamariio]

I generally agree on the nerf and buff.
However, one issue remains: The critical chance of primary and secondary weapons. One or more Galvanized mods dedicated to critical chance should be added, as well as more set mods.
Aslo, Berserker need more duration (16 to 24s is good)

[ShortCat]

What is the point of those reworks, please explain, because I do not see any? All I see are changes for the sake of changes?

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Infinite Attack-Speed Uptime is possible with a single Mod, and the result is animation noise with no distinction between hits, coupled with massive Damage output. 

We still want to support the ability to increase your Melee Attack Speed and Damage Output, just not to the levels you currently can.

Is infinite uptime not possible with the "on kill" requirement? Won't cap change from 75% to 70% not produce the same "animation noise"?
Btw, the better way to stack attack speed was (and it seems like still will be) Berserker + A. Strike/abilities. Only undergeared Tenno stack attack speed mods.

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Blood Rush & Condition Overload

Too little, too late.

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Glaives

Most glaives are actually not all that grerat, it's Glaive P pulling the weight for the whole weapon type. And Glaive's power comes from the forced procs and heavy damage type imbalance within the game. Those changes are the most difficult to assess from the entire Workshop; it seems with 1.2 seconds charge time Glaives might become unweildy and collect dust. It all depends on how charge time reduction mods will affect the endresult.

A sledge hammer approach against a whole weapon cattegory, due to 1 outlier as well as interwined faulty game structures. No hostages were taken.

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Primary and Secondary Weapon Arcanes

Arcanes are nothing more than dressed up mods. So you create another "mod slot" for a limited number of "mods" who all do the asme thing in the end, as benefits those Arcanes provide are the same as mods.

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Ultimately each Arcane stacks up to the same amount of damage, but it’s how you choose to get there that counts. Precision? Spray and Pray? Melee synergy? Your choice!

So... nothing changed in the end. Since top damage is still the same, a Bramma with its massive AoE + Primary Merciless will be even more potent than Tenora with Primary Deadhead. Brainless AoE weapons will dominate even more since they don't even require a headshot (kill) to trigger the effect and still get the same damage increase. This is increadibly tone-deaf.

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Galvanized Mods

Just another power raise. It's also funny that Rifles, the most potent gun category, also get the biggest buffs, since all Galvanized mods offer the same stat increase, however, Rifles have the weakest base mods, thus in the end Rifles will gain more stats.

 

All those changes will result in 1-2 mods swapped for a new better version & a hefty dose of power creep. What a disappointment.
PS. You could start working an a new Steel Path+

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 hour ago, (PSN)blaze_jade33 said:

I know I don't feel comfortable doing that

Yeah, I still can't remove it