Unpopular opinion: Single target guns will NEVER compete with AoE guns even if buffed to 100x as long as AoE weapons remain very convenient (Primed Sure Footed must die)

[Jarriaga]

3 minutes ago, Sl4ught3r777 said:

When u say nuking exist u mean to go as saryn and nuke ?

Any theoretical WF ability nuke. It's moving the goalpost away from the gun discussion.

4 minutes ago, Sl4ught3r777 said:

i meant nerfing melee so that people use primaries   makes no sense .  And that way for buffing also makes not that much sense. So as per you , need to resolve one issue at a time. 

I agree with you that one issue should be fixed at a time. The problem is that we are getting the Galvanized mods soon. Those will exacerbate and amplify the issue.

 

[Aldain]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

The problem is that we are getting the Galvanized mods soon. Those will exacerbate and amplify the issue.

-shudders- 200% Multishot on a Kuva Bramma...with 360% damage from Primary Merciless...

[Surbusken]

58 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

...

I agree in principle, every item, feature and weapon must have a role to fill, and they must have trade-offs.

Which is something that should have been thought of 10 years, before adding something like pistols to the game.

Every weapon class has to have a reason to exist, something that connects with the lore, connects mechanically to the gameplay and are fun.

That's why people keep laughing at the idea of ruining melee... to make something else more popular. They all have to stand on their own, live and die by their own merit and it's entirely on the developers to make sure that happens, that's their job.

Us the players can sit and complain and be just as entitled and nagging as we feel like. If I don't lke I don't play it, the end.

[Jarriaga]

19 minutes ago, minininja77 said:

This I could get behind, IF I cared about how other people played the game and had their fun and wanted to be a kill joy but I don't. Why should I care if someone wants to spend their entire day in WF with a Bramma point at their feet?

You should not care how other people play per se. You should care about what is healthy for the game overall even if it clashes against what people want or like, which often tends to lean towards undultered, raw powercreep.

It's no coincidence that the most often buff proposed for single target weapons is to give them innate punch-through, which effectively means turning all weapons into different flavors of AoE (Hallway AoE vs room AoE).

 

13 minutes ago, Aldain said:

-shudders- 200% Multishot on a Kuva Bramma...with 360% damage from Primary Merciless...

I mean, wasn't Split Flights delayed for so long and made not to work with AoE bows because of the Kuva Bramma as per DE themselves? Now there's Galvanized Chamber for it.

[Sl4ught3r777]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

Any theoretical WF ability nuke. It's moving the goalpost away from the gun discussion.

I agree with you that one issue should be fixed at a time. The problem is that we are getting the Galvanized mods soon. Those will exacerbate and amplify the issue.

 

Is it even possible to nuke using frame in SP . i mean the major focus of this update was to increase usage of primaries and secondary better in SP but nerfing melee specially that "ON KILL" activation is a bad idea. Also those arcanes which needs to be farmed on SP alone plus requires a part to unlock  which costs 15 SE which not goood. 

i mean think why are melee good 1  they have a combo counter and mods which scales with them . which make it good for sp 

2. it covers a long distance  bcs of it's range when u swing a sword it's not only for a enemy . 

So primary reason guns is not good  here bcs guns have bullet which do not cover wide area. Also there were no scaling now we have them which is good . 

but still lacking the second part covering a distance like spread so when u are shooting a enemy. Other will not kill you . 

 

nerfing melee mods so that people use other is a huge mistake.  Most came to play Warframe because we can slash like no other game and it's so satisfying not because we can shoot . we can shoot in any games .

So to sum it up 

no nerf melee . it is at a good position  i mean " ON KILL" and  that "red crits" easily do not exist for many melee's

make counter for primary new mods are a good start but unless u can spread the damage  say stagger it's of little use

and that arcane grind come on

 

[Jarriaga]

9 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

I can see you are biased toward AoE spam.

Primed Sure Footed made Cautious Shot irrelevant. It needs to be nerfed where it will not protect you from self staggers. Buff the cautios shot percentage to 100% to compensate.

Biased? He went straight to "no" without reading that the proposed reworked PSF would respect enemy stagger immunity.

There has to be a higher-tier word for that level of biased.

[Zhoyzu]

27 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

This would effectively turn all weapons into AoE. It would just be, as another user said, hallway AoE vs room AoE. Both (All) are AoE even if the degress are different, which is that I hope this game doesn't come to.

 

Well if you've got another way to bridge the gap with out fundamentally changing how every gun works im listening. I just cant see another solution that also benefits with the new changes/items. Either single target weapons get linear AoE and can be on par with AoE dmg or we limit the number of targets that an AoE can affect. And from my experiences in Elder Scrolls online thats a terrible solution. 

[Jarriaga]

8 minutes ago, Sl4ught3r777 said:

Is it even possible to nuke using frame in SP . i mean the major focus of this update was to increase usage of primaries and secondary better in SP but nerfing melee specially that "ON KILL" activation is a bad idea. Also those arcanes which needs to be farmed on SP alone plus requires a part to unlock  which costs 15 SE which not goood. 

i mean think why are melee good 1  they have a combo counter and mods which scales with them . which make it good for sp 

2. it covers a long distance  bcs of it's range when u swing a sword it's not only for a enemy . 

So primary reason guns is not good  here bcs guns have bullet which do not cover wide area. Also there were no scaling now we have them which is good . 

but still lacking the second part covering a distance like spread so when u are shooting a enemy. Other will not kill you . 

 

nerfing melee mods so that people use other is a huge mistake.  Most came to play Warframe because we can slash like no other game and it's so satisfying not because we can shoot . we can shoot in any games .

So to sum it up 

no nerf melee . it is at a good position  i mean " ON KILL" and  that "red crits" easily do not exist for many melee's

make counter for primary new mods are a good start but unless u can spread the damage  say stagger it's of little use

and that arcane grind come on

 

You are arguing about guns vs melee when this threads is about guns vs guns.

 

6 minutes ago, Zhoyzu said:

Well if you've got another way to bridge the gap with out fundamentally changing how every gun works im listening. I just cant see another solution that also benefits with the new changes/items. Either single target weapons get linear AoE and can be on par with AoE dmg or we limit the number of targets that an AoE can affect. And from my experiences in Elder Scrolls online thats a terrible solution. 

I believe reworking PSF so it doesn't protect against self-stagger would be a change to a single mod rather than to all weapons. Similarly, if self-damage is added again, the proposal for how much health you lose would use the current stagger system in which the closer you are to the stagger source, the bigger and longer the stagger animation. Point blank stagger would result in, say, 50% of your health lost.

Third change would be to Cautious Shot itself, removing it from exilus and adding self-damage protection, renaming it to Cautious Firestorm so it can't be used with (Primed) Firestorm.

Last change is to Chroma so he doesn't benefit from self-damage.

[Azamagon]

Warframe's poor balance really rears its ugly head when looking at AoE weapons. Other games have at least 2 of the following 3 balancing factors when dealing with AoE weapons:

1. Selfharm or selfincapacitation
2. Ammo is scarce
3. While burst damage might be high, DPS is usually not great

Due to mods and generally poor balance, all 3 of these can be circumvented / non-existant in Warframe:

1. Primed Sure Footed removes selfincapacitation - Imo, this is arguably one of the LESSER issues in Warframe
2. Ammo is abundant, via mutation mods and ammo pizzas - Not necessarily the biggest issue in Warframe either, since ammo has basicly been a non-issue for a long time.
3. AoE weapons are not only higher in burst, but ALSO in DPS! - Now THIS is a huge issue!

Only looking at the third point, that's not something inherent about choice or modding - this is BALANCING FLAW. I don't mind ammo being abundant, or that you can point blank with AoE weapons - but when they are the best option for EVERYTHING, you have an issue.

Let's take a very clear problem here:

Catchmoon vs Rattleguts. With the strongest grips for DPS, you get this:

• Catchmoon + Haymaker = 460 damage per shot, with a RoF of 1,17 = 538,2 raw dps. In a line, killing lots of enemies per shot
• Rattleguts + Haymaker = 71 damage per shot, with a RoF of 3,67 = 260,57 raw DPS. On a single target.

HOW IS THIS OK??

Rattleguts should have much higher damage per shot to be more fair. Like at least doubled damage. The current balancing is completely nonsensical. If higher Mastery Rank weapons were brought up in DPS to be more in line with a Catchmoon+Haymaker's DPS, I'd gently predict that almost no such weapon would struggle anymore. But, it needs some guidelines:

• Semiautos = Should have the best single target DPS. Some default punchthrough on most of these weapons too (similar to Sniper Rifles). Very high base status chance (think, 50%+ status chance at base, MINIMUM, depending on rate of fire of course), due to slower application rates than other triggertypes. Also, should generally have high critical chances (often, if not always, guaranteed crits after modding).
• Burstfire and multishot weapons (including shotguns) = Close to semiautos' DPS, if not equal, but slightly less statuschance.
• Fullautos = Slightly worse DPS than semi/burst, due to ease of use and quicker status application.
• AoE weapons = The bigger the AoE, the worse the DPS compared to single target attacks - but still capable of great burstshot damage of course.

So stuff like the Veldt, Grinlok and Latron should absolutely obliterate heavies in no time but requires more effort for multiple non-lined up targets, while Kuva Bramma takes out a bunch of smallfry easy peasy. but struggles with heavy units unless you want to waste a lot of ammo.

[Graavarg]

I think all AoE effect weapons should be included in the discussion, a weapon is a weapon. There is no logic whatsoever behind having AoE melee effects that does not have any adverse effect on the player, but when creating an AoE effect with a gun it suddenly does. The same 1 million vs 10 million damage argument applies equally to melee weapons.

And yes, it sure would be silly having to sit down on your behind for a awhile after affecting enemies with a melee AoE effect, but then so is having to sit down from creating the same effect by shooting.

And then we have the amps...

In my opinion it is "one out, all out" or "one in, all in". "Stagger" or "die" or "no effect" doesn't matter, but some logical consistency please.

[Sevek7]

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

This is the only real thing that will allow for single-target weapons to become relevant again unless you wish to present the argument that all weapons should be AoE, which is not a reasonable request in any way, shape, or form for the long-term health of the game.

As you said, simply buffing the damage on single target weapons will help to close the gap but never really balance them against any AOE method since this is a game where you are often fighting many enemies at once.

I thought about this a while back, and I think there's room for another, perhaps more satisfying solution:

Consider the Nox: An enemy with massive damage reduction over the whole body except for a single weak point. This weak point is difficult to hit with melee and AOE weapons, so the fastest way to take them down is by using single target precise weapons. 

I think the best solution is to give all "heavy" units the Nox treatment: give them all high damage reduction but with a weak-point accessible to single target weapons. This way the optimal way to play the game is to mow down trash mobs with melee and/or AOE, but switch to guns to take down priority heavy targets. This also incentivizes a fluid swapping of weapons throughout gameplay, instead of just repeating the same thing over and over. More variety is good!

Let me know if you think this is another possible solution.

 

[Jarriaga]

11 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

As you said, simply buffing the damage on single target weapons will help to close the gap but never really balance them against any AOE method since this is a game where you are often fighting many enemies at once.

I thought about this a while back, and I think there's room for another, perhaps more satisfying solution:

Consider the Nox: An enemy with massive damage reduction over the whole body except for a single weak point. This weak point is difficult to hit with melee and AOE weapons, so the fastest way to take them down is by using single target precise weapons. 

I think the best solution is to give all "heavy" units the Nox treatment: give them all high damage reduction but with a weak-point accessible to single target weapons. This way the optimal way to play the game is to mow down trash mobs with melee and/or AOE, but switch to guns to take down priority heavy targets. This also incentivizes a fluid swapping of weapons throughout gameplay, instead of just repeating the same thing over and over. More variety is good!

Let me know if you think this is another possible solution.

 

That is indeed a viable solution, but it seems this concept is being given to the Parazon now. Only heavy units will be susceptible to Mercy kills, which can come as early as 80% of their health. Your proposal could work otherwise if the number of heavy units was significantly increased vs grunts.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

IMO one way to curb AoE spam would be to make your reserve ammo based upon your weapon's AOE: the more AoE your weapon has, the less ammo you can carry, because you don't need as much if you can clear a room in one shot. Hitscan and beam weapons would be better suited to longer fights, at the cost of having to engage enemies one at a time, but a player can always carry one of each, and use the AoE weapon only when it's really needed: just like how it used to be back when you could kill yourself from the self damage.

this worked before when The Ogris went from being a rifle into a proper launcher, and it's the same reason why many shooters trying to keep some level of balance don't let you carry nearly as many rockets, grenades etc. as you do regular bullets. 

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

And since making weapons directly weaker by changing stats may simply not be enough, the only nerfs that would matter are those that would directly affect convenience:

- (Primed) Sure Footed no longer protects you from stagger triggered from your own weapons. It only protects you from stagger caused by enemies.

- On top of staggering you (Because Primed Sure Footed is now dead), re-introduce self-damage, but code it so it deals damage in relation to your own health. In this case 90% self-damage means your health drops to 10%. This ensures self-damage is a consideration, but it will never kill you. Hard-code Chroma so he doesn't benefit from this.

That would work, although as is it would really channel people into using certain frames abilities to circumvent the system.  (And into melee and ability kills where AoE is offered without stagger or self damage.  But these systems probably need to be addressed separately, as well as what roles single target weapon can fill even if AoE is nerfed.)

 

Anyway, here's the suggestion I've posted before.  It's not as severe as yours, but it does keep people from just using Nezha or helminthing Spellbind and calling it a day.

 - Make (Primed) Sure Footed and abilities with knockdown immunity reduce the severity of self staggers rather than eliminate them. 

This system already exists, as it's used by Cautious Shot.  (Although more on that later.)  Stack enough of these together, and people who can't live without self stagger immunity can still get it, but it takes more commitment than now.

And maybe that's enough without reintroducing self damage in some form.  But as far as self damage goes, I'd enjoy it if we got opt-in mods that brought it back in some form as a  penalty but with corresponding benefits.  For example, Reckless Serration could be a such a mod where you  get a souped up damage bonus at the cost of potentially disintegrating yourself.   Fun!

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Cautious Shot should then be your only protection against self-stagger and self-damage, but even at 90% this is still too convenient because it's a gun exilus mod. Thus, this mod should not be exilus, and should clash with Firestorm (Rename it Cautious Firestorm) in order to further decrease convenience by virtue of having to sacrifice a true mod slot and being unable to have your cake and eat it too (AoE range or AoE protection, not both).

Cautious Shot barely works with any multishot, which is almost the same as it not working at all.  But even if that gets addressed, all it does is reduce stagger severity, so it's not as powerful as you think. 

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

This is the only real thing that will allow for single-target weapons to become relevant again

Nah, nerfing self stagger immunity won't do that.  It'll help some,  but it's a problem that can't properly be fixed with nerfs.  Without major structural changes to the game it'll take some buffs to single target weapons/mods and, more importantly, more content that leverages their use.

[Voltage]

I don't know why this discussion is so difficult for players to wrap their head around. A healthier game isn't as profitable as a broken one that serves the audience that enjoys a brainless AoE fiesta. Updates in the last year have undone years of (bandaid) balance decisions to attempt at toning this down. It's quite obvious the way things are going purely comes down to a business decision rather than a game health one. If game health was the number one priority, you wouldn't see DE adding Warframe Riven Mods to Helminth or trivializing the game further with AoE encouragement on weak trash mobs to lower the bar of success even further.

This is gotten to the point where failing a mission as a decently geared player is almost impossible unless you literally go AFK.

[nslay]

Even if you change Primed Sure Footed to stagger from your own AOE weapons... AOE is still king. I should know, I use Proboscis Cernos with lots of frames who don't have Primed Sure Footed and I'm almost never in the blast radius. Though, I think this change would kill the Bramma because of the instantaneous AOE damage! I say good riddance to the Bramma! Lenz and Proboscis Cernos will reign supreme in your new system because no one will ever be in the blast radius of these weapons due to their AOE blast delay.

So yes, change Primed Sure Footed! It won't affect my Proboscis Cernos (or Lenz) and these weapons will continue to dominate in efficiency.

Essentially, this change doesn't actually solve the problem. It just makes delayed AOE weapons far better than instantaneous AOE weapons.

EDIT: IMO... the real problem is the AOE... it's too big! Primed Sure Footed doesn't need to be fixed/changed. The AOE needs to be reduced! It's absolutely silly!

Xoris is the biggest offender! 11m blast radius (with no fall off)... that's really silly! And Bramma, Lenz, Proboscis Cernos... these are all extremely silly weapons even without Primed Firestorm!

The AOE should NEVER have been as large as it is now. Why did DE make large AOE?

[RFaul]

With the incoming Nerf to Nukor I think Primed Surefooted will be even more valuable as it will make easier to use sporelacer. After that one imo comes Epitaph (which also benefits from Primed Surefooted) and only then Atomos. I believe those will be the go to weapons after condition overload changes as nukor will only affect two targets and the new condition overload will require more status types to achieve its maximum performance. Melee (other than glaives/etc) will still be king and yet not require as many forma/new mods as primary or secondary in order to achieve acceptable performance.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

I looked at the new Galvanised mods, the arcanes etc and realised right away what many others (and what DE seems to be oblivious to)... AoE primaries are going to be OP. 

Then I thought about a possible solution. And the easiest one I could come up with is to either segregate the mod groupings further ie introduce "AoE primary", "sniper" mods etc new groupings for weapons basically, so as to not have for example Galvanised Scope be available for a Kuva Bramma. But that could be tedious and annoying so I think the better solution is to have these segregation in terms of the classification of a weapon but not to have the mods split that way and instead, have the Galvanised mods and indeed all mods of similar vein work the way riven disposition alters between it's vanilla and prime variant. So the overall effect would be that for example, on a Opticor, Galvanised Scope would give the stats it has right now but if you equipped on say a Kuva Bramma, that +40% crit chance while aiming will only stack 2x times, instead of 5x due to the relative ease of maintaining it with an AoE weapon, which would balance things somewhat since the weapon while able to clear fast won't have the potential highest crit dmg of the slower firing single projectile weapon choice.

[Aldain]

21 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Then I thought about a possible solution. And the easiest one I could come up with is to either segregate the mod groupings further ie introduce "AoE primary", "sniper" mods etc new groupings for weapons basically, so as to not have for example Galvanised Scope be available for a Kuva Bramma. But that could be tedious and annoying so I think the better solution is to have these segregation in terms of the classification of a weapon but not to have the mods split that way and instead, have the Galvanised mods and indeed all mods of similar vein work the way riven disposition alters between it's vanilla and prime variant.

Honestly better mod groupings would go miles to solve a lot of "We can't introduce this because X will become bonkers" issue (Looking at you Split Flights).

But that's all a bit moot when we're gonna have Kuva Brammas with access to 360% scaling from the Merciless Arcane, 200% multishot, reasonable status chance with 80% MORE damage on status effected enemies (if one goes for that build) slapped together with Heat/Viral while also being able to possibly run Hunter Munitions and a basic crit loadout and having enough leftover capacity for an ammo mutation mod.

Meanwhile my Quellor would still not be able to hold a candle to that due to being a single target weapon, I don't get how DE can say "Ok we're gonna nerf down Melee because it gets easy Red Crit AoE damage" and then turn around and release...that mess of mods and arcanes that are straight up power creep.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just now, Aldain said:

Honestly better mod groupings would go miles to solve a lot of "We can't introduce this because X will become bonkers" issue (Looking at you Split Flights).

But that's all a bit moot when we're gonna have Kuva Brammas with access to 360% scaling from the Merciless Arcane, 200% multishot, reasonable status chance with 80% MORE damage on status effected enemies (if one goes for that build) slapped together with Heat/Viral while also being able to possibly run Hunter Munitions and a basic crit loadout and having enough leftover capacity for an ammo mutation mod.

Meanwhile my Quellor would still not be able to hold a candle to that due to being a single target weapon, I don't get how DE can say "Ok we're gonna nerf down Melee because it gets easy Red Crit AoE damage" and then turn around and release...that mess of mods and arcanes that are straight up power creep.

well that's why I say use the riven disposition method for mods that can be equipped over a vast category of primaries, with differing levels of effectiveness for each category while still using the same mod. Right now, DE's proposed changes are simply going to widen the gap between popular weapons and non-popular weapons and it's laughable that they can't understand that.

[ebrl]

If you buff "single target" weapons 100x you just get a good rate of fire and some punchthrough, sweep the room once or twice, and that will oneshot absolutely everything, might want to go easier on the hyperbole next time.

[Aldain]

3 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Right now, DE's proposed changes are simply going to widen the gap between popular weapons and non-popular weapons and it's laughable that they can't understand that.

Preaching to the choir on that one, I'm still occasionally getting notifications from the Workshop on a post saying basically that.

Not sure about the practicality of extending the disposition method to other mods personally, but they're gonna need to do something, otherwise we're gonna hit levels of power creep that shouldn't be possible.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

Preaching to the choir on that one, I'm still occasionally getting notifications from the Workshop on a post saying basically that.

Not sure about the practicality of extending the disposition method to other mods personally, but they're gonna need to do something, otherwise we're gonna hit levels of power creep that shouldn't be possible.

I did a rough calculation after 5 minutes of reading the notes they gave us. It should be possible to achieve around 800% crit chance with a Kuva Bramma which is what, 10x crit dmg plus whatever crit multipliers we have. Honestly at that point, you throw out your Serration mod, add a riven and launch your crit dmg into the stratosphere. Clueless devs.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

4 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Catchmoon vs Rattleguts. With the strongest grips for DPS, you get this:

• Catchmoon + Haymaker = 460 damage per shot, with a RoF of 1,17 = 538,2 raw dps. In a line, killing lots of enemies per shot
• Rattleguts + Haymaker = 71 damage per shot, with a RoF of 3,67 = 260,57 raw DPS. On a single target.

HOW IS THIS OK??

Rattleguts should have much higher damage per shot to be more fair. Like at least doubled damage. The current balancing is completely nonsensical. If higher Mastery Rank weapons were brought up in DPS to be more in line with a Catchmoon+Haymaker's DPS, I'd gently predict that almost no such weapon would struggle anymore. But, it needs some guidelines:

The theoretical drawback of Catchmoon is that it has very limited range (20m) and heavy falloff (100% to 6.25% over the course of 8-16m). Rattleguts also has the advantage of being able to take advantage of the headshot multiplier.

I agree with your general point, but the line is a bit more blurry.

[Aldain]

Just now, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I did a rough calculation after 5 minutes of reading the notes they gave us. It should be possible to achieve around 800% crit chance with a Kuva Bramma which is what, 10x crit dmg plus whatever crit multipliers we have. Honestly at that point, you throw out your Serration mod, add a riven and launch your crit dmg into the stratosphere. Clueless devs.

800% crit chance and 200% Multishot...

At that damage level I feel like we could shoot one Bramma bolt at a Fomorian and it would explode like the Death Star.