It's time to nerf Wukong

[DrBorris]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Remember the simpler times of people only complaining about Ember Prime? Then we got Maiming Strike, then Synoid Simulor, then we got Scoliac Riven Mods, Trinity Castanas, hmmm, there's always something 🤔

There's always something people will complain about, that doesn't mean that you should never change anything.

[(PSN)isbergen]

How about this: Wukong is very easy to craft. You just need to join a dojo. Grendel you have to complete the whole star chart (including TNW and AoZ now), then start farming Vitus Essence to buy keys, then spend those keys to run missions where all your mods are disabled. Ignoring the fact the Grendel's kit sucks, his farm alone accounts for his super low usage. I mean duh he's going to be lowest on the list. And duh Wukong will see high usage. He's an easy frame to farm and and his kit is good. So how about changing/fixing Grendel to be MORE LIKE Wukong?

[(PSN)Unstar]

What's interesting to me is that Wukong is so widely used not because he's the best at any given thing, but because he's good enough at a lot of things.  He's good at dealing damage with weapons due to his clone and he's good at surviving due to Defy and his passive, plus his cloud gives him great mobility and stealth while also providing built-in healing for newer players that don't have other avenues of healing yet.  He doesn't do everything, but he does a lot, and apparently that's appealing enough that people choose him over other frames that can do what they do better, but that don't have the breadth that Wukong does.

Kind of a shame, because I'd love to see more frames that were a bit more on the "jack-of-many-trades, master of none" side of design, because it can be fun to have a lot of neat toys to use depending on the situation.  Though frames like Wisp and Protea are designed like that (and even best-in-class at some of what they do) but their usage isn't anywhere near Wukong's.  Maybe that's because these frames are much harder to get than Wukong?  It'll be interesting to see if this changes once they're primed.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Numerikuu said:

If anything, I really hope this means his 4 will be made better.

Me too.  I think Defy has room for boosting too.  I also hope the active component of his 1 gets improved so that it feels really impactful.

1 hour ago, Numerikuu said:

Make his 4 better and have his clone only able to use that.

But I hope that isn't their solution for the clone.  It would really make the ability so dull.  I hope they preserve room for fun things like Talons Clone.

[Dunkelheit]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Venus-Venera:

he is nothing special and never was. completing a mission quickly is nice, but that's about it. there are strange people who like to be shot in the leg themselves. just who wins here?
because I don't care, I have top builds and even wisp performs better in the group... but to each his own.

7 Postings + OP and you answered 3 times... yeah, seems like you don't care.

[makaloff95]

18 hours ago, Silligoose said:

In all honesty. your post serves to give reasons for why radial AoE needs to be nerfed, as well as reasons for why the damage, particularly on the higher performing radial AoE weapons can be nerfed:

• It performs too well, even in SP Incursion missions, as it really doesn't require any other tools, such as grouping, to help it perform much better overall
• It outperforms other AoE damage options via Warframe abilities
• It outperforms weapons that cannot kill multiple enemies instantly, even if their potential sustain damage exceeds that of radial AoE damage substantially
• Even if the damage is nerfed, players have various tools available to ensure radial AoE would still be a top performer within setups in many situations

Now, I do agree that a simple radial AoE damage nerf is not all that DE should do to shake things up and attain better balance. In contrast, I believe what DE should look to do, is more comprehensive. Overall, our damage is too high and as a result, many of the mechanics that would break the monotony experienced in different missions, rarely have a chance to play a role. Rebalancing our damage will help re-establish greater depth in SP and make missions and enemies more engaging in different ways, depending on the mission and any in question:

• Reduce damage bonusses from stacks of Weapon Arcanes to a max of 120% bonus
• Reduce stack bonusses received from Galv Mod bonusses (different values for different mods)
• Look to change some of the mechanics for triggering stacks of abovementioned mods/arcanes from "on kill" to "on hit", or another kind of trigger that doesn't rely on kills
• Reduce the value of vulnerability granted by Virus

Our damage is too high and far exceeds what is needed, even in SP. The jump in our power is also neigh impossible to balance within a missions, with weapons increasing their damage by x13 - x20+ due to stacking bonusses attained from Weapon Arcanes and Galv mods alone - DE can't present any sort of balanced enemy durability with jumps in power like that: Games should look to have mechanics that lead to peak and valleys, but with the current stack potential, we get Everest and the Mariana Trench - the discrepancy is too great. Even DE knows it is too much, so they use "behind the scenes" nerfs like damage attenuation. Balance our damage properly, balance the valleys and peaks properly,  balance enemy durability properly and get rid of the band-aid that is damage attenuation: If players farm and attain 50% more power in their mods and setups, their weapons should do 50% more DPS as expected, not only 15% because of some stupid formula designed to nerf their power behind the scenes.

Speaking of balancing enemy durability properly, DE should start relying less on armour and the associated damage reduction to give enemies durability: An enemy with with around 7 million EHP and only 100k HP is pseudo durable at best and that type of pseudo durability just doesn't cut it. It didn't cut it two years ago with the release of SP and it is still trash. Cap armour at around 2700 and thus associated damage reduction to around 90%, maintain the EHP by giving the appropriate HP value and just like that armour stripping and slash/viral are no longer as far ahead of other armour-dealing options as they used to be, with other damage types and partial armour stripping options becoming competitive choices instead of afterthoughts. Even melee stances that don't have forced slash procs could become more competitive choices.

Finally, the EHP of non-armoured units need to be addressed: They are simply far too weak and their durability needs to be brought more in line with the ratio in durability in non-armoured units vs armoured units, as seen at around lvl 50 or so.

Now some may read the above and think it would take ages to kill enemies with all these changes and nerfs: It wouldn't. Even if DE was to address our damage output, reduce maximum damage potential by 60% AND made the changes to armour:health ratios, that 7 million EHP enemy, an SP level 150 Heavy Gunner btw, would still get killed in seconds, even if using non-top tier weapons, such as a Tenora Prime., even without any additional buffs from a Warframe.

Oh, and DE can go ahead and throw Overguard in the trash as well and use a proper system to address cc power. The current mechanics are bad for game depth and diversity.

problem with these propositions is that they would nerf other weapons that dont deserve it, i get that people think AoE is a issue but this would be a hit towards all weapons. No need to blanket nerf beacuse of a few weapons.

Only time i use a explosive weapon is if im doing SP (usually do longer runs so need something that can eat throught dmg) but outside of that i dont see the need for them. Sure go ahead and nerf AoE, all you do is switching the meta and most likely meele will be top dog again with heavy attack builds.

[Uhkretor]

9 hours ago, Mag_Gaming said:

his staff should probably be made slash mainly instead of impact like it is now but that´s another thing.

... Its a staff, not a halberd...

 

But that's exactly how the clone should've been instead of what it currently is.

[makaloff95]

4 hours ago, FulfillMyWill said:

That's why you should never share "hidden gem" builds (if you discover one) with anyone. With higher usage comes higher chance of that gear being nerfed.

atleast they havent touched Wisp which im happy for

[Tyreaus]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)isbergen said:

How about this: Wukong is very easy to craft. You just need to join a dojo. Grendel you have to complete the whole star chart (including TNW and AoZ now), then start farming Vitus Essence to buy keys, then spend those keys to run missions where all your mods are disabled. Ignoring the fact the Grendel's kit sucks, his farm alone accounts for his super low usage. I mean duh he's going to be lowest on the list. And duh Wukong will see high usage. He's an easy frame to farm and and his kit is good. So how about changing/fixing Grendel to be MORE LIKE Wukong?

Agree that Grendel's acquisition doesn't do him any favours, by far. Ash and Oberon too.

I don't think acquisition ease / difficulty factors in quite the same way for Wukong, though. His Prime has a high use rate too.

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

What's interesting to me is that Wukong is so widely used not because he's the best at any given thing, but because he's good enough at a lot of things.  He's good at dealing damage with weapons due to his clone and he's good at surviving due to Defy and his passive, plus his cloud gives him great mobility and stealth while also providing built-in healing for newer players that don't have other avenues of healing yet.  He doesn't do everything, but he does a lot, and apparently that's appealing enough that people choose him over other frames that can do what they do better, but that don't have the breadth that Wukong does.

He's not really that much a jack of all trades, all things considered. He doesn't heal the squad or buff much at all or basically do jack-all for a defense mission beyond the same "big boom" everyone has. He survives, he's mobile, and he deals damage easily. It just so happens that at least one of those three things, often multiple of them, are the focal point in many missions. Exterminate, Survival, Sabotage, Interception, Disruption, Rescue... You compare that to the things he can't do and find those have much smaller niches. Defense is just mobile defense and regular defense, maybe Infested Salvage. Buffing is...not really needed anywhere. And team heals are good for Defection, because people totally play that mode.

[X7PLVTINUM]

18 minutes ago, (PSN)isbergen said:

How about this: Wukong is very easy to craft. You just need to join a dojo. Grendel you have to complete the whole star chart (including TNW and AoZ now), then start farming Vitus Essence to buy keys, then spend those keys to run missions where all your mods are disabled. Ignoring the fact the Grendel's kit sucks, his farm alone accounts for his super low usage. I mean duh he's going to be lowest on the list. And duh Wukong will see high usage. He's an easy frame to farm and and his kit is good. So how about changing/fixing Grendel to be MORE LIKE Wukong?

Was about to point this out. I'd love to play Grendel but GOD DAMN is he such a pain to farm, You could lock my dream warframe behind that kind of grind and I'd still consider it to be not at all worth it

[ReddyDisco]

It's beginning, time to take a break from forums before "DON"T NERF WUKONG, HE"S FINE" posts start erupting

[Raarsi]

2 hours ago, Numerikuu said:

100% the clone, with his Cloudwalker being second. Mainly the clone though.

Saw this day coming the moment they dropped his rework. His 1 was broken from the get go and I'm surprised they okayed it. If anything, I really hope this means his 4 will be made better. Make his 4 better and have his clone only able to use that. Boom. Problem solved.

Fully agree with this route.  Remove the clone invulnerability from Cloudwalker, either give the clone only the exalted weapon or put a sizeable damage reduction (~25-50%), and voila, vaguely acceptable Wukong nerfs that still make it considerably tolerable in what content people are using it in.

Also since it's been brought up in a few posts, Wisp could definitely take a nerf too just because her buffs could be brought down to the point of providing barely any benefit and she'd still be overpowered.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

2 minutes ago, shocker53 said:

Was about to point this out. I'd love to play Grendel but GOD DAMN is he such a pain to farm, You could lock my dream warframe behind that kind of grind and I'd still consider it to be not at all worth it

Well grendel is fun to use and casualy can face tank enemies. Sadly it takes gourmand  and gloom to enable him to use his 4th longer. 

But it clearly shows how poorly some of them play and know gameplay. Like making wukong rather easy to get , and can be made ok with not much of invest.

While something like grendel require you to complete starchart, get certain mastery rank to do the new war and if not quit by then, need to farm vitus, do the special missions, and you get something which then require heavy invest just to do ok ,compared to other frames which are great from get go. Similar to weapons, people get kuva weps handed on silver plating, and other weps even after heavy invest wouldnt come near to average built aoe meta wep.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

5 minutes ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

Well grendel is fun to use and casualy can face tank enemies. Sadly it takes gourmand  and gloom to enable him to use his 4th longer. 

But it clearly shows how poorly some of them play and know gameplay. Like making wukong rather easy to get , and can be made ok with not much of invest.

While something like grendel require you to complete starchart, get certain mastery rank to do the new war and if not quit by then, need to farm vitus, do the special missions, and you get something which then require heavy invest just to do ok ,compared to other frames which are great from get go. Similar to weapons, people get kuva weps handed on silver plating, and other weps even after heavy invest wouldnt come near to average built aoe meta wep.

Then again, grendel also has the luxury of being the only frame who can be traded without being primed.

 (His locators are tradable and guarantee his blueprints).

[Skoomaseller]

19 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

I'd say that every other summon ability in the game is broken because they are worthless. Every other game out there that with a summoner the minions are made to get kills because that's how it's supposed to work. In WF everyone accepts that summon abilities suck so the one that doesn't gets hate. 

Nyx has mind control but even with the 500% damage augment it's worthless.

Atlas has rumblers which are also worthless with or without the augment.

Caliban has lethal Progeny with laughable damage and collision with players.

Nekros summons are only useful for DR with the augment.

Revenant and Xaku minions can be killed by friendly fire so they are totally worthless. 

What's the point of having summon abilities if they do nothing useful. It's a dead ability on a frame that only has 4 total abilities. Wuclone is the only useful one and people want it nerfed because it actually accomplishes the goal of a minion. I'd say fix the other useless summon abilities before nerfing Wukong. 

I don't even play Wukong regularly so it doesn't matter to me but nerfing the only minion in the game that is worth using seems ridiculous to me. 

 

agree as a revenant main, they're there to take off aggro and be subject to reave 1 shot but the whole "FIGHT FOR ME" thing he should have is laughable

wish more "pets" and companions themselves weren't so useless in combat

[Silligoose]

34 minutes ago, makaloff95 said:

problem with these propositions is that they would nerf other weapons that dont deserve it, i get that people think AoE is a issue but this would be a hit towards all weapons. No need to blanket nerf beacuse of a few weapons.

Only time i use a explosive weapon is if im doing SP (usually do longer runs so need something that can eat throught dmg) but outside of that i dont see the need for them. Sure go ahead and nerf AoE, all you do is switching the meta and most likely meele will be top dog again with heavy attack builds.

Which weapons do you think don't deserve a nerf?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

4 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

TBH, probably

I do see a whole lot of Wisp in missions. even moreso than Wukong

the reservoirs for Health and Speed are pretty overpowered,

constantly regenerating health, DPS goes up, and you're speed running the map

Easily better than Wukong, only downside is you have to aim your Bramma yourself (or use a on-call crew)

Can't heal through a one shot. 

 

[AbyssalSerpent]

5 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

who thinks that wukong is op... needs help! professional help!

i have dozens of builds that are way better than wukong. and wukong was nothing more than a speed runner to use in simple missions. but since a joker thinks it's op, then he should play with the warframe with the most content. but! Of course he doesn't...

this is all so embarrassing.

Plus they always fail to see that Wukong's companion, even with an AoE weapon has the intellect of a walnut. I can't tell how many countless times I "died" because my Celestial Twin was doing who-knows-what instead of firing at enemies that are bombarding me.

It's reasons like this I quit this game last month: too many unnecessary nerfs without DE addressing the actual issue as to why things are "meta" or "overused" to begin with, constant content droughts and too much focus on fan service.

[vanaukas]

5 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

who thinks that wukong is op... needs help! professional help!

i have dozens of builds that are way better than wukong. and wukong was nothing more than a speed runner to use in simple missions. but since a joker thinks it's op, then he should play with the warframe with the most content. but! Of course he doesn't...

this is all so embarrassing.

You can change your name but you can't change your brain, Battle.Mage.

[PrimalordialBob]

"Oh no, pencils are used way more than pens. They are too OP, gotta nerf them."

This is the type of logic supporting these nerfs. It's actually stupid

[schilds]

Interview with Pablo: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1553466786

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Wukong major issue is just the clone. The best nerf I can see if just the clone locked to using Iron Staff. Little change for big impact.

[(XBOX)Obi Wan Dandobi]

1 hour ago, makaloff95 said:

atleast they havent touched Wisp which im happy for

Not until after they've milked her Prime release

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

[Drachnyn]

Wukong getting nerfed despite not being good, incredible.