Nidus Prime vs Lore

[Skaleek]

Nidus Prime exists to appease the corpus greed machine. I remember there being a debate about Nova Prime and Valkyr Prime back in the day as well. Basically someone on the forums writes some fan fiction and then eventually some vague excerpt gets added in game and suddenly it "all makes sense". Then you get people coming in the forums shaming others for questioning the validity because of this thinly pieced together lore. You're gonna get a primed everything because DE wants primed dollars.

[DaMasque]

If I had to headcannon Nidus Prime...

The Orokin made the Infestation to fight sentients. They needed something to control the infestation right? I mean, releasing a plague uncontrolled is only self destructive. So Nidus Prime was made.

Somewhere down the line this failed... Probably when Order 66 happened. The tenno went to sleep. The infested, unsupervised, took over. Consumed Nidus Prime and made the Nidus relic mentioned in The Glast Gambit. 

[Educated_Beast]

There is time travel in this game, proven on Lua.  Any of these contradictions can be explained by paradox. 

An oriken agent traveled to future, witnessed the war torn landscaped, scanned some warframes, and then traveled back in time to create these prime version of frames.

While I do not understand why you would make frames at all after seeing future, time travel does make it possible to have the prime frame create after the regular frame.  

Yes it is a paradox.

[GrayArchon]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Neither of them were. "Normals" are the tenno frames that came up later since the tenno didnt have access to Orokin tech, then prior to the Primes there was something that Ballas implies in The Sacrifice got put to death.

I meant first among those two. Obviously the prototypes Ballas talks about are the "first" warframes.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

edit: Also not really sure how you got the Nidus trailer to imply any of what you said about it. That is next level headcanon.

This is the text of the Nidus Prime trailer:

Quote

We cast our shining child adrift on strange seas. For with time, these starless currents, black as mourning, may work a sea change.

And if, one grisly dawn, the skies should hurl you, herald-like, back to Earth… remind us, foundling, of what we immaculate ones have lost. What succulent richness disease’s kiss may bring.

My festering demigod. My Nidus.

My interpretation of this is that Ballas "cast [his] shining child adrift" – ie shot it out into space to see what would happen. To wait for the "starless currents" (space) to "work a sea change" (alter the warframe).

In the Sacrifice quest, Ballas says that the outer rim of the solar system was where the Infestation resided ("Our horrors past, our ravaged outer colonies"). Nidus clearly made his way to one of these Infested zones, where the Technocyte reacted to his Helminth biology. The outer colonies were actually where the warframe Helminth strain came from. So the 'wild' Helminth re-bred with the 'laboratory' Helminth, re-Infesting the warframe, as it were.

Ballas then says that the re-Infested Nidus Prime came back to Earth, where the Orokin presumably made use of him in the war. They took advantage of the power ("succulent richness") that the Infestation had given him ("disease's kiss").

I think this is a fairly straightforward interpretation of the trailer that requires essentially no headcanon. Ballas spells it out plainly.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

A lot of head cannon, conjecture and insinuation going on in this thread. 

[TARINunit9]

On 2021-09-26 at 3:22 PM, Kerberos-3 said:

Harrow and Protea conflict with Lore due to them being unique one-offs,

No they weren't

Multiple pieces of lore established that Primes and Not-Primes coexisted during the Old War.

Rell's Harrow is easy, that's just the Warframe he happened to have.

Parvos and Protea is also easy: the Orokin tried multiple times to assassinate him, but when that failed they just decided to buy him off instead, handing him a spare Protea Not-Prime

[Marvelous_A]

On 2021-09-27 at 6:20 AM, Kerberos-3 said:

Slight issue with that. Valkyr's toolkit came from what she suffered at the hands of Alad. Hysteria is something she developed on her own, while Ripline, Paralysis, and possibly Warcry are just modified from extant Corpus tech. Valkyr Prime's abilities would have to be completely different for them to be lore friendly, which they aren't.

She probably just keeps all the original powers she had before the experiment. Xaku keeps 3 abilities from the 3 original warframes that made them which probably means Alad V's experiment hardly change anything for her ability-wise.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

I meant first among those two. Obviously the prototypes Ballas talks about are the "first" warframes.

This is the text of the Nidus Prime trailer:

My interpretation of this is that Ballas "cast [his] shining child adrift" – ie shot it out into space to see what would happen. To wait for the "starless currents" (space) to "work a sea change" (alter the warframe).

In the Sacrifice quest, Ballas says that the outer rim of the solar system was where the Infestation resided ("Our horrors past, our ravaged outer colonies"). Nidus clearly made his way to one of these Infested zones, where the Technocyte reacted to his Helminth biology. The outer colonies were actually where the warframe Helminth strain came from. So the 'wild' Helminth re-bred with the 'laboratory' Helminth, re-Infesting the warframe, as it were.

Ballas then says that the re-Infested Nidus Prime came back to Earth, where the Orokin presumably made use of him in the war. They took advantage of the power ("succulent richness") that the Infestation had given him ("disease's kiss").

I think this is a fairly straightforward interpretation of the trailer that requires essentially no headcanon. Ballas spells it out plainly.

Out of the primes and the normals the primes would be first since the normals are tenno made to skip the orokin resources they didnt have access to.

As for the trailer and Nidus. It would be impossible for the method to go down like that. This is because the warframes are immune to the infestation and I can find nothing that indicates that there is a second Helminth version either. It is made by the Orokin just like the rest of the infestation. Also just a sidenote. Earth has never been a center of the Orokin empire. When the frame projects start Earth is still in the process of being cleansed, they never really succeed with that since the person working on that is being invited to work on the transference project together with Margulis, then later on that person steals the helminth to go back and use it on Earth. She dies there protected by the frame she helped create.

And you need alot of headcanon, since you need to completely ignore all interaction that has gone down between the tenno and the hive mind throughout the game and the whole lore part about frames being immune to the infestation. Aswell as making up that there is another Helminth somewhere. We currently face 2 strains of infestation, the regular one and the grey version which has gotten altered likely due to the entrati's work to try and fight it. Then we have the Helminth that is made for the frames.

So what the story of Nidus likely tells is just a frame sent out to see how it does versus the infested as an "infested", maybe to make it learn how to be "infested". We dont know if this story is tied to one of the early non-spolered bio-drones or if it is a spoiled prime where it is sent out so the spoiler can experience the infestation first hand to make its frame do more infested-like things.

 

[BahamutKaiser]

The first one could have generated with old Orokin parts, or maybe they secretly existed already and the narrative is false :P

[GrayArchon]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Out of the primes and the normals the primes would be first since the normals are tenno made to skip the orokin resources they didnt have access to.

We have seen non-Prime frames in operation during the Orokin era, so this idea that the normal frames are only built by the Tenno and the Prime frames are only built by the Orokin is not true. The What Remains? webcomic shows a standard Octavia warframe in service to the Orokin (with a platoon of Dax).

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

As for the trailer and Nidus. It would be impossible for the method to go down like that. This is because the warframes are immune to the infestation and I can find nothing that indicates that there is a second Helminth version either. It is made by the Orokin just like the rest of the infestation.

Yes, the warframes that the Tenno use are immune to Infestation. However, this doesn't seem like an absolute rule. Chroma in the New Strange quest was controlled by an unknown entity, possibly Infested (though more likely to be Sentient), and Mesa in Patient Zero was explicitly puppeted by "Infested flesh". Given these examples, it seems likely that Ballas was able to disable, override, or remove whatever quality or ability the proto-Nidus warframe had that prevented it from being Infested.

I'm not talking about a second Helminth variant, just the difference between the 'wild' and 'lab-cultivated' Helminth. In the Sacrifice, Ballas implies that the Helminth strain used to create the warframes was harvested from Infestation outbreaks in the outer rim of the solar system: "Our horrors past, our ravaged outer colonies… became gardens!" This was 'wild' Helminth, and it was taken by the Orokin and put to work, resulting in 'lab-cultivated' Helminth. I am a biologist who works with cancer cells, and I can tell you that cell cultures used in laboratories will diverge from their original stock over time. The cells we cultivate in labs are very different from the tissues they were originally extracted from. So, we have a distinction between 'wild' and 'lab-cultivated' Helminth, even though one comes from the other. We learn from the trailer that Nidus (Prime) was Infested by a wild strain, so the wild Helminth must still have been out there. At that point it would have been distinct from the lab-cultivated Helminth that produced the proto-Nidus, so they would effectively been two different strains of Technocyte interacting with each other. Of course, you are correct that all strains of the Infestation were ultimately created by the Orokin in the beginning.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also just a sidenote. Earth has never been a center of the Orokin empire. When the frame projects start Earth is still in the process of being cleansed, they never really succeed with that since the person working on that is being invited to work on the transference project together with Margulis, then later on that person steals the helminth to go back and use it on Earth. She dies there protected by the frame she helped create.

I only mention Earth because Ballas does. The trailer literally says "And if, one grisly dawn, the skies should hurl you, herald-like, back to Earth…" (emphasis added). Perhaps 'Earth' is being used as metonymy for the Orokin government, since Lua, the seat of government, is part of the Earth system.

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

since you need to completely ignore all interaction that has gone down between the tenno and the hive mind throughout the game

I don't see how the Infested hive mind factors into this at all.

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So what the story of Nidus likely tells is just a frame sent out to see how it does versus the infested as an "infested", maybe to make it learn how to be "infested". We dont know if this story is tied to one of the early non-spolered bio-drones or if it is a spoiled prime where it is sent out so the spoiler can experience the infestation first hand to make its frame do more infested-like things.

So your interpretation is that Nidus was sent out on a scouting/research mission to observe the Infested and copy its behaviours and attributes? I think this theory is much less likely, because Ballas says "What succulent richness disease's kiss may bring." The phrase "disease's kiss" strongly implies that Nidus itself was Infested, changed by the Technocyte. He also describes Nidus as "festering".

[SilentMobius]

On 2021-09-26 at 10:38 PM, ZeroX4 said:

And well now we have nidus prime and i wonder was he wrong about that lore part?
What he was talking about?
Or in fact nidus prime according to lore should not exist?
 

Warframe Lore has a lot of space between the few facts we know for sure, players sometimes come up with their own headcanon that fills those gaps, when something is discussed that conflicts with their headcanon they sometimes state that it is "against the lore" or "breaking the lore" when it's only breaking their headcanon.

Nidus, Protea, Valkyr, Xaku all have no problem having a prime, the only problems are with player assumptions.

Revenant/Warden may need some explaining if it is to have identical kit. but it's not unexplainable.

It would be nice if DE gave us a little more when players have already constructed headcanon than need dismantling, but we have what we have.

In the past some players were convinced that Nova Prime couldn't exist, they were simply wrong, it happens time and time again.

[vanaukas]

the only truth is "every warframe will have a prime", anything else it's just speculation

[akots]

On 2021-09-28 at 2:12 AM, GrayArchon said:

The only official text we have is the Prime Access FAQ, which says that "A Prime Warframe, weapon, Sentinel or accessory represents technology as it was during the height of the Orokin Era." Just so we all have an understanding of existing lore on the subject.

This is exactly the case. Prime frame is the Orokin "serial" product design, which could have come first going time forward in many cases. Regular frame could have come later in time going time forward or first going time backwards. Regular frame is not necessarily a prototype for a prime variant, while the opposite might be the actual case.

Specifically, I don't have an issue with Revenant. Orokin created sentients with their cores. So, they should be certainly able to create a tau-modified prime variant in the past based on what they have learned from the future. A regular Revenant prototype before merging with the cores can be planted at some point going time-forward.

This is not exactly something very new and can be loosely based on the Time Tombs (aka the Unum in WF universe) from Dan Simmons' Hyperion, which is the first novel to introduce the concept iirc.

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

We have seen non-Prime frames in operation during the Orokin era, so this idea that the normal frames are only built by the Tenno and the Prime frames are only built by the Orokin is not true. The What Remains? webcomic shows a standard Octavia warframe in service to the Orokin (with a platoon of Dax).

Yes, the warframes that the Tenno use are immune to Infestation. However, this doesn't seem like an absolute rule. Chroma in the New Strange quest was controlled by an unknown entity, possibly Infested (though more likely to be Sentient), and Mesa in Patient Zero was explicitly puppeted by "Infested flesh". Given these examples, it seems likely that Ballas was able to disable, override, or remove whatever quality or ability the proto-Nidus warframe had that prevented it from being Infested.

I'm not talking about a second Helminth variant, just the difference between the 'wild' and 'lab-cultivated' Helminth. In the Sacrifice, Ballas implies that the Helminth strain used to create the warframes was harvested from Infestation outbreaks in the outer rim of the solar system: "Our horrors past, our ravaged outer colonies… became gardens!" This was 'wild' Helminth, and it was taken by the Orokin and put to work, resulting in 'lab-cultivated' Helminth. I am a biologist who works with cancer cells, and I can tell you that cell cultures used in laboratories will diverge from their original stock over time. The cells we cultivate in labs are very different from the tissues they were originally extracted from. So, we have a distinction between 'wild' and 'lab-cultivated' Helminth, even though one comes from the other. We learn from the trailer that Nidus (Prime) was Infested by a wild strain, so the wild Helminth must still have been out there. At that point it would have been distinct from the lab-cultivated Helminth that produced the proto-Nidus, so they would effectively been two different strains of Technocyte interacting with each other. Of course, you are correct that all strains of the Infestation were ultimately created by the Orokin in the beginning.

I only mention Earth because Ballas does. The trailer literally says "And if, one grisly dawn, the skies should hurl you, herald-like, back to Earth…" (emphasis added). Perhaps 'Earth' is being used as metonymy for the Orokin government, since Lua, the seat of government, is part of the Earth system.

I don't see how the Infested hive mind factors into this at all.

So your interpretation is that Nidus was sent out on a scouting/research mission to observe the Infested and copy its behaviours and attributes? I think this theory is much less likely, because Ballas says "What succulent richness disease's kiss may bring." The phrase "disease's kiss" strongly implies that Nidus itself was Infested, changed by the Technocyte. He also describes Nidus as "festering".

While we see a normal Octavia it isnt positively ment to be one. It can also be the very first Octavia, or intended to be a Prime, but since it was in preperation for the normal Octavia release they didnt really know what her Prime would eventually look like and not feel confident in digging themselves into a hole for how a future release would look 2-3-ish years down the line. So I'd really take that as a placeholder prime since the rest of the frames in the comic are primes.

There is no difference, the same strain is used in all the frames. Chroma was likely the cause of a transference accident resulting in a dead tenno mind trapped inside, or it is an echo from the original Chroma. Mesa was puppeted by infested flesh that had been experimented on by Alad. So it was more an infestation controlling the frame externally and not actually infesting it. Kinda like those mechanical prostethic prototypes that can help lame people walk.

No he doesnt imply that. He implies they harvested the infestation which resulted in the Helminth. There is no "wild" Helminth. The Helminth which they came up with also made the frames immune to other strains of the infestation. Another thing that doesnt add up with this seperate infestation of the prime compared to the proto is that the prime would never find its way back. It isnt alive, it needs the tenno. It would also no longer be Nidus at that point if there was a Nidus proto at some point that was different.

And the hive mind factors in because it has told us a couple of times over about how it needs us to willingly join it. How it already sees us as one of it/them.

You think my interpretation is less likely when you compeltely shoot aside one of the main attributes of the frames, that they are immune to the infestation as a whole? And it never occured to you that "disease's kiss" may refer to what Nidus can do, you know spreading himself in several different ways? Which also covers festering. 

[GrayArchon]

17 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

While we see a normal Octavia it isnt positively ment to be one. It can also be the very first Octavia, or intended to be a Prime, but since it was in preperation for the normal Octavia release they didnt really know what her Prime would eventually look like and not feel confident in digging themselves into a hole for how a future release would look 2-3-ish years down the line. So I'd really take that as a placeholder prime since the rest of the frames in the comic are primes.

You can take this position, but I won't. If I see normal Octavia, I'm going to assume that it's actually normal Octavia unless evidence surfaces to the contrary. Octavia barely does anything in the comic; if they wanted to say it was Octavia Prime instead, they could have just not shown her at all and only mentioned her. The comic revolves around Suda, not Octavia, and she could have said "Octavia is here to take me away" or something like that. For reference, the Rell webcomic that previews Harrow doesn't show or mention Harrow at all. Thus, I'm going to say that non-Prime Octavia was serving the Orokin.

18 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

He implies they harvested the infestation which resulted in the Helminth. There is no "wild" Helminth.

If there's no wild Helminth, then where did they harvest the Infestation? It was growing there, uncontrolled. Wild. Ballas doesn't say it came from a lab. He says it came from "our horrors past, our ravaged outer colonies". Places that had been lost to Infestation.

18 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The Helminth which they came up with also made the frames immune to other strains of the infestation.

Conjecture. We know the warframes are immune but it is never stated what attribute or component of them makes them immune. You don't know it's the Helminth. It could be Void magic or just some special technology Ballas added.

18 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Another thing that doesnt add up with this seperate infestation of the prime compared to the proto is that the prime would never find its way back. It isnt alive, it needs the tenno.

I never meant to imply that the Nidus warframe made it back under its own volition/power. We don't know how it came back. Maybe it was attached to a drone that brought it back after some period of time. Maybe it was on an elliptical orbit around the Sun and returned as a part of its orbit. Maybe the Infestation shot it out like the boil that hits the Plains. I agree with you that Nidus itself could not come back on its own, but that doesn't discount the rest of it.

18 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And the hive mind factors in because it has told us a couple of times over about how it needs us to willingly join it. How it already sees us as one of it/them.

But again I don't see what that has to do with anything. Whether or not the hive mind wants us to join it doesn't affect the Infestation's ability to infect something. And for all we know, the hive mind is talking to the warframes themselves, not the Tenno, and doesn't even know that we, the Operators, exist. Most people don't.

18 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You think my interpretation is less likely when you compeltely shoot aside one of the main attributes of the frames, that they are immune to the infestation as a whole?

Every rule has an exception, and Warframe shows that better than anything. Every warframe has shields – it was a main attribute of the frames – until Inaros. Every warframe has energy – similarly defining – until Hildryn.

Besides, this is why I think it wasn't a complete warframe that was sent out and Infested, but one that was under construction. Before it was made immune to the Infestation.

18 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And it never occured to you that "disease's kiss" may refer to what Nidus can do, you know spreading himself in several different ways?

I suppose it may refer to that, but I don't think so. Given that the whole trailer discusses Nidus changing and his journey, I'm more inclined to think that the "disease" in question has infected Nidus, rather than Nidus infecting something else.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

On 2021-09-27 at 5:05 AM, -Krism- said:

Saying that DE doesn't care about the lore is the epitome of stupidity when it comes to this community

Nope, saying they don't care is correct. But go ahead and defend them at all costs.

 

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

On 2021-09-28 at 12:19 PM, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

A lot of head cannon, conjecture and insinuation going on in this thread. 

I know right!?!?! 🙂🙃

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

On 2021-09-27 at 5:05 AM, -Krism- said:

Saying that DE doesn't care about the lore is the epitome of stupidity when it comes to this community

Guess I'll clarify.

Admittance: I'm unhappy with how DE ignores their story, and don't put in as much as focus as they could on it.

Does DE care about the lore? In a way yes.

At the same time:

DE doesn't care as much about it, and don't put in the effort they could. Some of the stuff they do has an air of "this will do", and without providing the backstory for it. There's the debate in this very thread on whether certain primes fit in with the lore DE has set forth, and both sides have valid arguments...which to me means there's no definitive answer. I know story wasn't their main focus with the game. Heck, it was a hail Mary to keep the company from sinking. As much as some of us, myself included, think DE is incompetent and disinterested, there are some people, it seems, who do care. At the same time, there's also so so so much they can do with the story...I just don't have the hope anymore though.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

On 2021-09-26 at 5:29 PM, -Krism- said:

Didn't drop my brain.

Just lost my hope.

[SneakyErvin]

5 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

You can take this position, but I won't. If I see normal Octavia, I'm going to assume that it's actually normal Octavia unless evidence surfaces to the contrary. Octavia barely does anything in the comic; if they wanted to say it was Octavia Prime instead, they could have just not shown her at all and only mentioned her. The comic revolves around Suda, not Octavia, and she could have said "Octavia is here to take me away" or something like that. For reference, the Rell webcomic that previews Harrow doesn't show or mention Harrow at all. Thus, I'm going to say that non-Prime Octavia was serving the Orokin.

If there's no wild Helminth, then where did they harvest the Infestation? It was growing there, uncontrolled. Wild. Ballas doesn't say it came from a lab. He says it came from "our horrors past, our ravaged outer colonies". Places that had been lost to Infestation.

Conjecture. We know the warframes are immune but it is never stated what attribute or component of them makes them immune. You don't know it's the Helminth. It could be Void magic or just some special technology Ballas added.

I never meant to imply that the Nidus warframe made it back under its own volition/power. We don't know how it came back. Maybe it was attached to a drone that brought it back after some period of time. Maybe it was on an elliptical orbit around the Sun and returned as a part of its orbit. Maybe the Infestation shot it out like the boil that hits the Plains. I agree with you that Nidus itself could not come back on its own, but that doesn't discount the rest of it.

But again I don't see what that has to do with anything. Whether or not the hive mind wants us to join it doesn't affect the Infestation's ability to infect something. And for all we know, the hive mind is talking to the warframes themselves, not the Tenno, and doesn't even know that we, the Operators, exist. Most people don't.

Every rule has an exception, and Warframe shows that better than anything. Every warframe has shields – it was a main attribute of the frames – until Inaros. Every warframe has energy – similarly defining – until Hildryn.

Besides, this is why I think it wasn't a complete warframe that was sent out and Infested, but one that was under construction. Before it was made immune to the Infestation.

I suppose it may refer to that, but I don't think so. Given that the whole trailer discusses Nidus changing and his journey, I'm more inclined to think that the "disease" in question has infected Nidus, rather than Nidus infecting something else.

Waaay too much headcanon in your theories. Not only that, but you now add WF mechanics to the mix, when none of those attributes are actually mentioned to be cornerstones of a frame in the lore. 

And as a scientist (as you claim you are), you should logically see that it is the helminth portion of the frames that makes them immune. 

And obviously the hivemind is talking to the warframes and not the tenno. I do however not know what point you try to make here or what difference it would make. The hivemind senses that the WF is already infested. If it could infest the frame it would infest the frame to make the infestation stronger as a whole, it wouldnt ask it if it already could grab it at will. 

And why would Ballas send out a half constructed frames that is supposed to be a prime of an already exsisting frame? And why would Ballas risk the infestation getting stronger by getting their own warframes. Which would happen if as you say the frame was sent out prior to getting immune. You dont think the infestation would take over the drone you mention, or knock the frame out of orbit to keep it? Why would the infestation play tennis with Ballas and willingly send it back? Why dont we see Nidus Prime clones in the ranks of the Infestation? There would be if they could interact with it and infect it. That is what the infestation does and how it grows and evolves. There are to many contradictions for the idea to ever be logical.

[Atsia]

7 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

If there's no wild Helminth, then where did they harvest the Infestation? It was growing there, uncontrolled. Wild. Ballas doesn't say it came from a lab. He says it came from "our horrors past, our ravaged outer colonies". Places that had been lost to Infestation.

I mean, they probably just grabbed a sample from anywhere, then manipulate to suit their needs. It's pretty much what Ballas says they did. Even says they grew it themselves.

[GrayArchon]

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Waaay too much headcanon in your theories.

I lay out the source material, give my interpretations of it, and if necessary, provide inferences. Everything is rooted in the facts that we know and I generally steer clear of speculation, and I will give ample warning if I say something that is not supported by the text. Maybe we disagree on interpretations, but to characterise my discussions as "headcanon" is unfair, in my opinion.

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

you now add WF mechanics to the mix, when none of those attributes are actually mentioned to be cornerstones of a frame in the lore

Heath and shields are canonical attributes of warframes in the lore. For example, during Operation: Gate Crash, Lotus says "Cumulative exposure to the keys will have detrimental effects on your health, shields and warframe abilities" (emphasis added). Warframe shields have as much lore support as their immunity to the Infestation, which is why I thought it was an appropriate comparison.

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And as a scientist (as you claim you are), you should logically see that it is the helminth portion of the frames that makes them immune.

As a scientist, I don't rely on "logic", but experimental evidence. It's not enough to point to something and say "this makes sense". You then have to go and show that things are linked, or one causes the other, et cetera. You can only rely on the results of experiments for scientific fact, not the starting questions. Of course, this doesn't apply to Warframe since we as players and fans can't "run experiments" on the lore, but my point is that inferences and conjecture should not be what we take as solid canon. You may think that Helminth causes the frames to be immune, but we have no direct evidence or confirmation of that. Any connection you think is there doesn't exist until DE says it does.

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The hivemind senses that the WF is already infested. If it could infest the frame it would infest the frame to make the infestation stronger as a whole, it wouldnt ask it if it already could grab it at will.

I'm not disputing the fact that warframes are immune to the Infestation! I am just saying that perhaps Nidus (Prime) isn't immune (or wasn't, when he was infected, but now is). I'm also not even stating this as a fact! I'm raising the possibility because it opens avenues for discussing Nidus Prime and his journey.

The hive mind still recognises that the warframes are made of Infested tissue but not a part of it. It has no control over the warframes. I'm pretty sure we agree on this and the whole hive mind discussion is a red herring.

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And why would Ballas send out a half constructed frames that is supposed to be a prime of an already exsisting frame?

Ballas says he wanted the warframe to undergo a "sea change". The wording suggests that he wanted the warframe to improve but he didn't know how to do it or he wanted something or someone else to do it, so he surrendered it to the unknown. Perhaps he didn't even know the Infestation was going to grab it and change it. But Ballas wanted an additional element to the warframe that he couldn't provide. He says in the trailer that he "cast [Nidus] adrift" for the purpose of a "sea change". Again, these are direct readings of Ballas' own words.

You're also assuming that the Primes were made after the normal versions, which is also not stated anywhere in lore. We don't know which version comes first.

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And why would Ballas risk the infestation getting stronger by getting their own warframes. Which would happen if as you say the frame was sent out prior to getting immune. You dont think the infestation would take over the drone you mention, or knock the frame out of orbit to keep it? Why would the infestation play tennis with Ballas and willingly send it back? Why dont we see Nidus Prime clones in the ranks of the Infestation? There would be if they could interact with it and infect it. That is what the infestation does and how it grows and evolves. There are to many contradictions for the idea to ever be logical.

This is assuming the Infestation worked the same back then as it does now, which might not be the case, seeing as the Infestation has already radically changed twice since the Tenno have woken up from cryosleep (first with the Mutalist strain created by Alad V, and then its adaptation to using human lures as seen in the Emissary storyline). The Gray Strain on Deimos also works completely differently. The hive mind on Deimos is split between its own warring factions of Vome and Fass, and the fish are separate from the hive mind entirely (which is why Daughter studies them). This all suggests that the Infestation is not monolithic. Perhaps there wasn't even a hive mind back in the times of the Orokin (although definitely point out if you know of any Orokin-era sources that mention a hive mind; I can't remember any off the top of my head).

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2021-09-28 at 2:12 AM, GrayArchon said:

We know from cinematics and webcomics that Prime warframes existed, unless you think that the Erra cutscene we watched took place in a different timeline.

How long we been running relics though?  The grind is eternal.  (joking.  Sort of.)

No, I actually believe the posting about them being original Orokin tech from 2014 still holds true, despite all the other retconning.  I was just having a conversation regarding the fact that DE has placed uncertainty around that fact with certain prime frames and the constant retconning.  

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, GrayArchon said:

I lay out the source material, give my interpretations of it, and if necessary, provide inferences. Everything is rooted in the facts that we know and I generally steer clear of speculation, and I will give ample warning if I say something that is not supported by the text. Maybe we disagree on interpretations, but to characterise my discussions as "headcanon" is unfair, in my opinion.

Heath and shields are canonical attributes of warframes in the lore. For example, during Operation: Gate Crash, Lotus says "Cumulative exposure to the keys will have detrimental effects on your health, shields and warframe abilities" (emphasis added). Warframe shields have as much lore support as their immunity to the Infestation, which is why I thought it was an appropriate comparison.

As a scientist, I don't rely on "logic", but experimental evidence. It's not enough to point to something and say "this makes sense". You then have to go and show that things are linked, or one causes the other, et cetera. You can only rely on the results of experiments for scientific fact, not the starting questions. Of course, this doesn't apply to Warframe since we as players and fans can't "run experiments" on the lore, but my point is that inferences and conjecture should not be what we take as solid canon. You may think that Helminth causes the frames to be immune, but we have no direct evidence or confirmation of that. Any connection you think is there doesn't exist until DE says it does.

I'm not disputing the fact that warframes are immune to the Infestation! I am just saying that perhaps Nidus (Prime) isn't immune (or wasn't, when he was infected, but now is). I'm also not even stating this as a fact! I'm raising the possibility because it opens avenues for discussing Nidus Prime and his journey.

The hive mind still recognises that the warframes are made of Infested tissue but not a part of it. It has no control over the warframes. I'm pretty sure we agree on this and the whole hive mind discussion is a red herring.

Ballas says he wanted the warframe to undergo a "sea change". The wording suggests that he wanted the warframe to improve but he didn't know how to do it or he wanted something or someone else to do it, so he surrendered it to the unknown. Perhaps he didn't even know the Infestation was going to grab it and change it. But Ballas wanted an additional element to the warframe that he couldn't provide. He says in the trailer that he "cast [Nidus] adrift" for the purpose of a "sea change". Again, these are direct readings of Ballas' own words.

You're also assuming that the Primes were made after the normal versions, which is also not stated anywhere in lore. We don't know which version comes first.

This is assuming the Infestation worked the same back then as it does now, which might not be the case, seeing as the Infestation has already radically changed twice since the Tenno have woken up from cryosleep (first with the Mutalist strain created by Alad V, and then its adaptation to using human lures as seen in the Emissary storyline). The Gray Strain on Deimos also works completely differently. The hive mind on Deimos is split between its own warring factions of Vome and Fass, and the fish are separate from the hive mind entirely (which is why Daughter studies them). This all suggests that the Infestation is not monolithic. Perhaps there wasn't even a hive mind back in the times of the Orokin (although definitely point out if you know of any Orokin-era sources that mention a hive mind; I can't remember any off the top of my head).

But you ignore the fact that warframes are immune to the infestation, so dont say you steer clear of speculation. Which is also why I call it headcanon. Also, the mention of shields there isnt an indication that all frames must have shields, it just means that shields are also weakened if they have them. I'm not saying shields arent canon, I'm saying shields doesnt have to be part of every frame. That is a big difference.

We have evidence that Helminth makes the frames immune since it is a lab created strain of a current infestation. If it was tied to some other tech there would be no reason for the orokin to not make everything/everyone immune in order to stop the massive spread. But since it is part of Helminth they cant use it because it turns people into Warframes, which eventually drives most of them insane. Ontop of this we have to consider the reaction of the hivemind towards the frames, which further strengthens the idea that they are already considered infested and impossible to infect.

"Sea change" can simply refer to learning aswell, which would make the most sense given that a Prime requires an operator too. So it is sent out to an infested world to learn through the tenno controlling it. Though I am fairly sure that the Nidus Prime trailer, just like many other Prime trailers arent actually refering to the creation of the Prime, but the creation of the proto, the original frame that later got Primed. This would make it far more logical that it gets sent out in order to come back changed. Still not changed due to getting infested, but changed due to learning how to utilize and mimic the infestation. Call it a baptism by fire if you will.

It is fairly safe to say the infestation worked the same back then. Atleast it wouldnt be less aggressive at an "early age" because it still wants to improve, expand, learn and get stronger. The Mutalist strain is also man made, so is in essence the grey strain due to the anti-infestation experiments the family has tried in order to "cure" themselves. And Deimos isnt exactly a big place, so whatever they've used has likely sipped out into the rest of the moon. Which wouldnt be so odd given how the family is practically part of the moon. And since it all has been severed from the hivemind it isnt so strange that wildlife isnt purely infested, nor that there are two rivaling giant monsters,

And a hivemind back then? Probably since it is really just a computer program inside biotechnological nanites. Deimos cuts that link in some way, same as the orokin does in order to achieve the Helminth strain. Alad V fails to do so more or less, though he never succumbs to the hivemind himself.

[GrayArchon]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If it was tied to some other tech there would be no reason for the orokin to not make everything/everyone immune in order to stop the massive spread.

The Orokin don't seem to be all that concerned about the Infestation's spread. Ballas calls them "horrors past" (emphasis added), implying that there is no longer any danger. When discussing Earth, Ballas talks about wanting to reclaim it from the Infestation but doesn't voice a concern that the Infestation might spread to other places, such as Lua. So making sure things are immune to the Infestation doesn't seem to have been a focus at that point in the Old War.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Ontop of this we have to consider the reaction of the hivemind towards the frames, which further strengthens the idea that they are already considered infested

We already know the frames are Infested. That's accepted fact. What's not accepted is the idea that you can't "re-Infest" a thing that's already been Infested. Being diseased doesn't confer immunity; quite rather the opposite. There's no reason to think that the reason the warframes are immune is because they're Infested.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

"Sea change" can simply refer to learning aswell

"Sea change" is a phrase with an accepted definition, that being a transformation. The phrase itself comes from The Tempest by Shakespeare:

Full fathom five thy father lies,
Of his bones are coral made:
Those are pearls that were his eyes,
Nothing of him that doth fade,
But doth suffer a sea-change
Into something rich and strange.

Read that text about how a drowned sailor's body is transformed over time into something totally different, by the forces of nature. His bones became coral, his eyes became pearls. That sounds a lot like what happens when a person is remade by the Infestation into a new entity.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So it is sent out to an infested world to learn through the tenno controlling it.

Nidus wasn't sent out, he was "cast adrift". That implies Nidus wasn't travelling through his own volition or the power of another. "Adrift" means to move with the waves, the tides, the wind (or, in space-travel metaphor, gravitational forces and orbital mechanics). If Nidus was sent out to learn (a purposeful objective), Ballas wouldn't have said "cast adrift" (which very much gives the impression of aimlessness and passivity). Once again, your interpretation of Ballas' actual words runs counter to the simplest explanation of those words.