I dont think Frost needs a rework, just one little change

[DreisterDino]

I have seen lots of people say Frost is outdated and needs a rework, but i actually disagree with that.

 

Sure, he could use some little tweaks considering his HP/Armor/Energy and i would agree that Ice Wave Impendance should be build in to his 2nd ability since that one does basically nothing without the Augment. But besides that, i still think he is a good Frame since he has great CC with his augmented 2 and his 4, good armor-stripping with his 4 and is able to defend himself and multiple targets with his Snow Globes.

 

But after playing with him again the last few weeks and experimenting with the Helminth-system, one major flaw became apparent to me:

• if you want to use the Snow Globe without annoying other players and yourself, you can not replace his 1st ability
• in case you dont know, you need his 1st ability to cancel his 3rd ability

 

Honestly, i think its pretty stupid that you need one ability to cancel another one (this might have been ok before Helminth, but now it just holds him back).

I cant think of any other Warframe who works this way. All frames i can think of can either:

• just deactivate an ability by pressing the button of said ability again
• or, often with augments, are able to disable the ability by holding the ability button

 

Suggestion:

Hold 3 while standing inside a globe or looking at a globe will remove that globe again.

 

This alone would make Frost a lot better already imo because there are many Helminth abilities which work well with his 2nd/3rd/4th ability.

I am curious, is there any other Frame in the game which needs one ability to cancel another?

And btw, i wouldn't call it a synergy if you need an ability to cancel another one.

 

Ps: Please dont say "just replace his 2, it sucks anyway" - because imo with the augment its great for CC and fun to use, and it gets even stronger with stuff like gloom subsumed^^ For me its a key part of his kit and i dont really like replacing it just because i want to be able to use his globe properly.

[Aldain]

No mention of his passive? The whole "negligible chance to freeze melee enemies" thing? Basically on the same tier of useless as Rhino?

[DreisterDino]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Aldain:

No mention of his passive? The whole "negligible chance to freeze melee enemies" thing? Basically on the same tier of useless as Rhino?

Pretty useless passive, thats true, but thats the case for at least half the Warframes.

A nice passive is always cool to have, but passives arent the main thing which make a Warframe good/bad.

 

The 4 main abilities on the other hand are what decides if a Warframe is good and fun to use or not.

 

Edit: To be clear, i think the change i proposed would open up lots of possibilites on how to play and modify Frost with subsumed abilities.

A new passive wouldn't hurt, but it also wouldnt change anything about the problem i described,

meaning that he is more limited in what abilities you can replace than any other Frame probably.

 

Nezha For example: The 2nd and 4th ability do synergize, but you can still remove the 2nd ability and use the 4th just as good and vice versa.

But with Frost its different: remove his 1st and his 3rd gets really annoying all of a sudden because you cant remove the globes.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, DreisterDino said:

Pretty useless passive, thats true, but thats the case for at least half the Warframes.

That is something that should be unilaterally fixed.

We have some frames where their entire kit is based AROUND their passive, some like Excalibur which are nice-if-limited, and then Frost/Rhino, which might as well not have one.

It could be anything, "Enemies Frozen by Frost's Abilities take extra Melee damage" or "Enemies killed while Frozen by Frost's Abilities Explode into Ice Shards upon death" literally ANYTHING and it would be better than what it is now.

A passive is just as much a component of a Frame's identity as their abilities, and should play into those abilities.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

33 minutes ago, Aldain said:

That is something that should be unilaterally fixed.

We have some frames where their entire kit is based AROUND their passive, some like Excalibur which are nice-if-limited, and then Frost/Rhino, which might as well not have one.

It could be anything, "Enemies Frozen by Frost's Abilities take extra Melee damage" or "Enemies killed while Frozen by Frost's Abilities Explode into Ice Shards upon death" literally ANYTHING and it would be better than what it is now.

 

You could make frost’s passive at least decent it the chance to freeze on hit was 100%. Thats it. 
 

Also I nominate nova and revenant for the “needs a whole new passive” list 

[Aldain]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

You could make frost’s passive at least decent it the chance to freeze on hit was 100%. Thats it. 

But 90% of enemy damage in Warframe isn't coming from Melee attacks, and that's not even talking about the issue of "You need to get hit for this to work" when enemy damage can quickly spiral to the point where getting hit by a melee enemy can be fatal post shield gate.

It also doesn't prevent the damage or anything, you get hit and freeze the enemy, then a stray bullet hits you in the shin and you die before you can even think about killing the frozen enemy.

Anything that requires a player to get hit needs a much better payoff than something like a melee specific CC.

[Wolfdoggie]

I mean that doesn't even matter when full power and armor shields break instantly in steel path+

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

I cant think of any other Warframe who works this way. All frames i can think of can either:

That's probably right... But other Warframe's are Strange in their own way too.... For example.... All of Grendel's Abilities simply don't work unless he Swallows something with his First Ability.... That's a pretty extreme Bottleneck in design if you ask me...

1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

 

Hold 3 while standing inside a globe or looking at a globe will remove that globe again.

It should refund the energy too.... That's okay Right ?

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

Honestly, i think its pretty stupid that you need one ability to cancel another one (this might have been ok before Helminth, but now it just holds him back).

I cant think of any other Warframe who works this way. All frames i can think of can either:

• just deactivate an ability by pressing the button of said ability again
• or, often with augments, are able to disable the ability by holding the ability button

Most warframes don't have multiple static placements they can set down and I think that you can remove old globes by continually casting snowglobe iirc (It's been a while since I felt a need to spam globes but I think the oldest dissolves when you cycle them.) What makes his 1 nifty is that it turns the globe into a bomb.

Differing playstyles will vary though...

For my part , Impedence needs to, as you, me , and dozens have noted for years now, be built in to the ability and replaced with (my personal preference) a gap closer instead. Likewise Icy Avalanche simply needs to be tuned up to be impactful

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

No mention of his passive? The whole "negligible chance to freeze melee enemies" thing? Basically on the same tier of useless as Rhino?

Frost's passive is fine. It simply doesn't fit whatever your playstyle is...

A player using snowglobe as a personal melee bubble gets added protection from the passive whereas players who need to keep stuff dead from across the room will see negligible effect from it.

Very few frames have passives that are viable for all playstyles and content.  This passive is for a melee oriented Frost.
 

[Miser_able]

1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

I am curious, is there any other Frame in the game which needs one ability to cancel another?

gara. her 1 is used to get rid of her 4, granted you can recast it to get rid of it but then it doesnt do the extra damage or increase the damage on her 2.

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Frost's passive is fine. It simply doesn't fit whatever your playstyle is...

Getting hit in the face by slow melee units isn't a playstyle, it's a failure to evade.

[vanaukas]

3 should be destroyed maintaining the 3 button insted the dependency on 1 (but still leave interaction with one), so you can replace any ability without being a pain for the team

[Cmdr-A]

One way I could see snowglobe being deactivated is if you HOLD 3 while inside the globe you wish to remove.instead of having to use 1. Since a lot of abilities now are starting to gain a tap and hold duality on some frames. It'd actually be feasible to make his 3 be deactivated by being inside the globe and holding 3 down. This would honestly be the best course of action to fix this one issue.

[Rakosta_Kai]

19 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Getting hit in the face by slow melee units isn't a playstyle, it's a failure to evade.

What about in the back of the head by Flameblades, Manics, Ancients, etc?  Because it works on those too...

It's ok that it doesn't fit your personal playstyle because it doesn't actually hurt your playstyle either.—It's a conceit to assert that something is "universally useless" simply because you have found no use for it though.

[Aldain]

4 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

What about in the back of the head by Flameblades, Manics, Ancients, etc?  Because it works on those too...

It's ok that it doesn't fit your personal playstyle because it doesn't actually hurt your playstyle either.—It's a conceit to assert that something is "universally useless" simply because you have found no use for it though.

I don't believe for a single second that anyone is picking Frost's passive to counter slow melee Grineer, rare spawning Manics and hooks from certain enemies.

Why? Because getting hit by any melee enemy in this game basically requires you to be standing still with how slow they swing, Manics are nowhere near as dangerous as they used to be, and people loudly promote Primed Sure Footed for any and all hooks/knockdowns at every turn.

You'd have an easier time convincing me the Earth was flat, than that people actively remember Frost even has a passive 90% of the time and use it for that specific niche..

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

I don't believe for a single second that anyone is picking Frost's passive to counter slow melee Grineer, rare spawning Manics and hooks from certain enemies.

Why? Because getting hit by any melee enemy in this game basically requires you to be standing still with how slow they swing, Manics are nowhere near as dangerous as they used to be, and people loudly promote Primed Sure Footed for any and all hooks/knockdowns at every turn.

You'd have an easier time convincing me the Earth was flat, than that people actively remember Frost even has a passive 90% of the time and use it for that specific niche..

I honestly wouldn't expect you to...
You initial commentary on the matter was just exactly myopic enough to assure anyone reading that the only playstyle you can actually concieve of is your own.
The concept that Melee Frost players exist as a style and actually would see benefit from the passive didn't occur to you and, if your subsequent commentary is any indication, still can't believe in.

That doesn't mean it doesn't exist insomuch as it means you can't or won't see far enough past yourself for you to recognize that fact.
 

Why, for example, would I want to dodge the attack to begin with? A melee frost is going to be using a globe with chilling globe equipped. Blocking is vastly wiser than dodging in that case. That's not counting ranged melee attacks or teleport attacks that you might not see or occur behind you.

Essentially, what you have said is, "Because I don't do it, it makes no sense... As such, others shouldn't be doing it either.". 

For what it's worth, I think convincing you that the earth actually isn't flat would be more fitting and take the same amount of work with the same degree of success regardless.

 

 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

my ideal Frost would be this:

Passive: Frost grants a protective layer of ice to himself and allies within range, reducing their damage taken by 10% for each ally within 20m. Frost loses the ice when no allies are in range, but always grants maximum ice stacks as long as at least one person is inside his Snowglobe.

Freeze: works as now, but with a much wider AoE: shattering a frozen enemy makes Ice Shards, which then applies a slash damage effect to his Next Freeze cast.

Ice Wave; replaced with new ability "Cryozone". Frost creates a circle of ice under and around himself, any enemeis who step on the ice are slowed down, casting again casues Icicle spikes to rise up from the ground impaling enemies and dealing cold and slash damage over time.

Snow Globe: works as it does now, chilling globe is now part of the standard effect, augment puts Icicle spikes on the globe to damage enemies who run inside it, and greatly increase globe detonation damage when freeze is cast upon it.

Avalanche: replaced with new ability "Winter's Wrath". Frost creates a large blizzard that deals constant cold and slash damage over time to enemies caught within it, who are also blinded, slowed and armor stripped by the Blizzard. the blizzard can be a drain over time ability maintained by frost until he runs out of energy or cancels the power.

this to me is what frost should be: not just a defense frame, but all the hazards of cold climates incarnate: slashing, biting winds, freezing ice and blinding white. he should feel like a force of nature, or an Ice Demon. 

 

[4thBro]

He needs a rework, like many others, because he has zero defensives. You get stuck living inside Snowglobe - which only survives because it has 4 seconds of invulnerable absorption time to buffer its HP higher. (But then you can't have too much Range, or it'll get nullified 24/7.)

 

In a game where every other Frame's cold effects seem to give armor, this ENTIRE cold-themed Frame has zero armor buffs to himself. It's just super outdated, both thematically and balance-wise, whether you can see it or not.

 

Anyone who says Frost doesn't need a rework is a Hydron Hero (or equivalent).

The fact that you think all he needs is a way to pop his globes without the use of one of his other abilities is pretty telling.

[DreisterDino]

@(PSN)robotwars7I wouldnt mind the changes you suggested to his passive, his 1st and 3rd ability, they sound about right.

But i have some issues with what you suggest to his 2nd and 4th ability, let me explain:

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PSN)robotwars7:

Ice Wave; replaced with new ability "Cryozone". Frost creates a circle of ice under and around himself, any enemeis who step on the ice are slowed down, casting again casues Icicle spikes to rise up from the ground impaling enemies and dealing cold and slash damage over time.

I dislike this for one reason: We really have a lot of cc-abilities on Warframes which are radial already. I dont know if you played Frost a lot, but the fact that the Ice wave expands in a cone forward instead of being a radial effect can make it better and more useful in many hall scenarios in Warframe, which comes up a lot. Just to make an example: the base range of ice wave is now 20m. If it would be a radial attack, this range would most likely be lower, for example 10m. Overall, the area you would cover would still be bigger with the 10m radius, but you arent able to get as far like with the directional effect with a base range of 20m.

Ice Wave right now simply offers a different kind of cc effect, which can reach targets further away compared to other radial cc-effects, and i like this diversity.

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PSN)robotwars7:

Avalanche: replaced with new ability "Winter's Wrath". Frost creates a large blizzard that deals constant cold and slash damage over time to enemies caught within it, who are also blinded, slowed and armor stripped by the Blizzard.

This also just sounds like a generic ability, and it doesnt sound like it would be better like current Avalanche.

I mean, Avalance right now can strip 100% armor with enough power strength instantly, and instead of blinding+slowing over time, it freezes them also instantly.

Your suggestion simply sounds like a downgrade to what we have right now.

 

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Padre_Akais:

I think that you can remove old globes by continually casting snowglobe

I thought so to, but playing with him the last weeks again i tried exactly that, and recasting it over and over again wont remove old globes.

Unless you put down 4 new different globes on the map, then the "oldest globe" gets removed since we can only have 4.

But that doesnt solve the problem, we will end up with new globes at random places which would be just as annoying as the one we wanted to remove.

[0_The_F00l]

I do agree that frost doesn't need a full rework. Just minor tweaks to energy economy.

However if it ever happens I would actually go with the hold / tap route.

Tap 2 to cast ice wave (cheap , and quick) , hold 2 to cast avalanche (takes time and more energy to cast) .

Having a hold action only to remove snowglobe feels a bit of a waste , how about you gain Armor/shields based on the damage recieved/ health left by snowglobe. If snow globe is destroyed while you are in it you get only Armor.

The new 4 can be a freezing aura of sorts.

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

But that doesnt solve the problem, we will end up with new globes at random places which would be just as annoying as the one we wanted to remove.

Granted,  that's a bit annoying in the Helminth landscape.

Perhaps the side-effect of popping the globe should be tied to Frost's first ability tier, as opposed to his first ability, I'm not immediately familiar with every potential ability that can go in that slot so I am sure not all could apply but being set that that way would at least mean that many abilities could get the job done instead.

It creates the potential to preserve that synergy for players who don't like his current 1 at the very least.

[ReddyDisco]

Frost Prime's abysmal base energy is one of the few thing i'd like to see get a buff

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The new 4 can be a freezing aura of sorts.

Like gloom but instead of getting health back the aura strips base armor at a steady rate, keeping inline with his traditional 4's armor strip

[Soy77]

i was about to pitch in with my ideas, but reading the first few replies reminds me why i don't participate in ideas threads anymore.
you guys can make a whole new videogame just with the ideas compiled in this thread.

anyway, this:

13 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

you can remove old globes by continually casting snowglobe

 

[XAN3MK]

Looking at Frost in a vacuum is not productive. He is a relic, stuck in a version of Warframe that no longer exists, not to mention that he exists in a game where Gara and Limbo are a thing. In terms of a gameplan, he brings nothing to the table that those two don't do better and then some.

That's why he needs a rework.

[(PSN)Pragmatic_2015]

Frost is in the same boat as Valkyr. Both frames have 2-3 useful abilities but their passives leave room to be improved upon.

What separates them is Frost's reliance on cold status. I do feel that any improvement done to  Chillframe would need to wait until cold status gets revisited.