Warframe rework

[(PSN)Sam_Krozan]

Can DE please slow down on the new Warframes, and rework some of the old frames. 

Ash

Loki

Nyx

Trinity

Frost

And many others new their kits looked at and adjusted. To make their abilities more viable. It seems as though you have let some of them fall way to far to the wayside. 

 

Much appreciated for the consideration. Love the game.

[RLanzinger]

To @(PSN)Sam_Krozan

I found that Frost, nor Trinity nor Nyx need rework...

Could you explain a bit your feedback with a reason, not just I don't like it change it which is NO feedback at all, a rough OPINION at best !

[Birdframe_Prime]

Relevant Info Comment.

DE have publicly released the statements as follows:

1. Reworks are done to frames when an actual idea for the rework comes along that they resonate with.

2. Reworks are not done as a priority because the usage stats show that reworks only very briefly affect the usage of a Warframe.

To which we can interpret the following:

First is that DE never actually reads rework threads here on the Forums or on Reddit, because viable reworks, full-on theory crafting, and ideas are being constantly presented for the frames.

Second is that, while we keep asking and asking for a rework, the community never actually shows any gratitude and doesn't actually play the frame even after the rework.

Fun, right?

[CosmicHermitCrab]

1 hour ago, RLanzinger said:

To @(PSN)Sam_Krozan

I found that Frost, nor Trinity nor Nyx need rework...

I can explain one aspect per se. Frost's passive is too RNG, 10% proc chance, and has to be a melee hit. I remembered KnightmareFrame complaining about this point, regarding the oldie: Frost.

4 hours ago, (PSN)Sam_Krozan said:

Can DE please slow down on the new Warframes, and rework some of the old frames. 

Ash

Loki

Nyx

Trinity

Frost

I like how all of these were released in Update 6.0 or before (Frost and Nyx, along with all Vanilla Warframes). That alone kind of implies that this list of Warframes might be currently overlooked because they are very old and past-released Warframes.

[megastorm]

There definitely should be a pause in warframes coming out and clean up the game. But this is an old topic for awhile now and we can see they don't have the intentions of doing this.

[0_The_F00l]

I wouldn't mind a rework to hydroid personally.

But i don't think the rest of the frames OP mentioned are that unmanageable.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

3 hours ago, RLanzinger said:

To @(PSN)Sam_Krozan

I found that Frost, nor Trinity nor Nyx need rework...

Could you explain a bit your feedback with a reason, not just I don't like it change it which is NO feedback at all, a rough OPINION at best !

Ash doesn't need a rework either. They could shove the augment into his 1 and 3 by default and call it a day...

Edited June 1, 2023 by (XBOX)Upl0rdYT

[ant99999]

6 hours ago, (PSN)Sam_Krozan said:

Can DE please slow down on the new Warframes, and rework some of the old frames

I fully agree on that part.

Hiwever there are frames in more desperate need of a rework than those you suggested. Those all need more a tweek to an ability or two. Valkyr for example could use a full rework.

[(PSN)Unstar]

Not all of these Warframes are top-tier, but I'm really surprised to see Ash on the list at all, let alone at the top of it.  Ash has an all-around great kit and a variety of different effective playstyles.

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

This game and many others are designed for multiple playstyles used by humans. Humans are incredibly varied in how they use things.

For example, in an FPS, some are more skilled/proficient at shotguns, but may lack skill with snipers or it may just not be for them regardless of experience.

[CosmicHermitCrab]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

This game and many others are designed for multiple playstyles used by humans. Humans are incredibly varied in how they use things.

For example, in an FPS, some are more skilled/proficient at shotguns, but may lack skill with snipers or it may just not be for them regardless of experience.

Or they go full-Kirito and bring a sword to a gunfight... 😉 

[(XBOX)Riknav]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Not all of these Warframes are top-tier, but I'm really surprised to see Ash on the list at all, let alone at the top of it.  Ash has an all-around great kit and a variety of different effective playstyles.

 

Well I'll agree you can take Ash to the survival level cap, most of his augments need to be baseline and given augments that actually provide group utility or CC.

Edited June 1, 2023 by (XBOX)Riknav

[(PSN)robotwars7]

8 hours ago, (PSN)Sam_Krozan said:

Ash

Ash mainly just needs tweaks, like his augments being added to his abilities, and maybe a change to his 4; the current Bladestorm works but doens't feel all that "ninja" to me. I'd love it if instead, Ash unsheathes his wrist-blades as an exalted melee and two Shadow Clones, then while the player performs takedowns on one enemy, the clones will go ahead and take down others. 

8 hours ago, (PSN)Sam_Krozan said:

Loki

Loki's rabid fanbase won't let DE touch him sadly, even though Disarm is not the greatest CC and switch teleport is mainly just used by trolls at this point. also, his Decoy needs to scale off of literally anything else other than Strength, and allow it to move and attack independently: like it or not, Wukong's Celestial Twin set the bar for Specter powers, and Loki's should be at least on par.

8 hours ago, (PSN)Sam_Krozan said:

Nyx

it still baffles me how after all this time, a frame that controls the enemy's minds doesn't just make them, you know.. self-delete... Psychic bolts could use a buuf, or replacing with a power that makes enemies injure themselves. that way she has more offensive capability AND it leans perfectly into her theme.

8 hours ago, (PSN)Sam_Krozan said:

Trinity

Trinity is still great as a dedicated support, but lighter supports like Wisp or jack-of-all-trade frames can provide enough support by themselves so well, that nobody ever thinks "damn, wish we had a Trinity with us". I suppose you don't really need a dedicated healing frame when most content is a breeze and items such as Arcanes and life-stealing weapons can keep warframes alive just as easily. as for how to rework her, I dunno. maybe have link translate a portion of her weapon damage to nearby enemies? essentially lets her chain-kill with any weapon, which by itself is already a marked improvement over having zero offensive abilities.

8 hours ago, (PSN)Sam_Krozan said:

Frost

Frost works fine for Defense, but IMO he doesn't use ice to it's full potential; I'd like Ice Wave and Freeze to have an alt-fire where Frost throws out Icicles instead that impale enemies, dealing high physical damage as well as cold, and keeping the enemy in place. this would allow frost to damage deal outside of a defensive scenario as well. 

overall I totally agree, a LOT of the older frames just can't really compete with newer ones, and DE desperately needs to go back and tweak them.. but getting DE to rework things is like trying to give a troublesome dog a bath.. 

[Grave.Knight]

8 hours ago, (PSN)Sam_Krozan said:

Ash

Only thing he needs is more duration on Smoke Screen and Shuriken needs a rework (it needs a mod just to give it average power). Teleport does need to be fixed, or at least Fatal Teleport does, and needs to be able to do something to normal enemies that are immune to stealth (mostly just Corpus Drones).

8 hours ago, (PSN)Sam_Krozan said:

Loki

Agreed. Decoy should be invulnerable. Switch teleport should cost 0 energy when used on Decoy. Radial Disarm either needs a rework or get replaced.

8 hours ago, (PSN)Sam_Krozan said:

Nyx

Eh. Mind Control should just have infinite duration or until cast again. Absorb should work like Stalker's version in that she should be able to float around, while the augment mod should let her move around. Could also make it so she can't move vertically when she casts Absorb but can move Horizontally (unless she has the augment).

8 hours ago, (PSN)Sam_Krozan said:

Trinity

She literally only has one bad power, and that's the "turn enemies into healing balloons." I guess they could have it turn enemies into healing totems instead (though that's essentially just Garuda's power at the point). She doesn't need a rework.

8 hours ago, (PSN)Sam_Krozan said:

Frost

It's mostly just Snow Globe that needs fixing. And the fix is easy, just make it so people can shoot through it.

Surprised these are the Frames you focus on when Inaros and Hydroid are in much more need of a rework.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Grave.Knight

[Felsagger]

8 hours ago, (PSN)Sam_Krozan said:

Can DE please slow down on the new Warframes, and rework some of the old frames. 

 

Completely agree on this. 

[sunderthefirmament]

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

2. Reworks are not done as a priority because the usage stats show that reworks only very briefly affect the usage of a Warframe.

Second is that, while we keep asking and asking for a rework, the community never actually shows any gratitude and doesn't actually play the frame even after the rework.

Fun, right?

I don't have access to all of DE's data on this, but anecdotally, I see waaaaaaaay more Zephyrs now than I used to.  And what about Wukong?  His rework made him into a versatile powerhouse.  Yeah, the clone needed to be reigned in a bit.  But my usage of Wukong hasn't changed even since the clone nerf.  His best ability is Cloudwalker, and that didn't get nerfed.

 

I wish DE would say more about reworks, particularly this claim about reworks not increasing usage stats significantly.  Respectfully, I wonder if they're looking at the problem from the right perspective.  Due to the prime vault, DE has implemented forced scarcity for some frames.  I think the grinds behind acquiring some frames also need to be taken into account, like with Grendel.  His missions are a notorious roadblock.  I bet his rework didn't see much of a change in his usage statistics because it also buffed up his Helminth ability, and I can't imagine the average player is willing to farm one Grendel, let alone two.  All of this is to say that a rework not leading to an immediate bump in usage might not be as simple as it seems. 

 

And that's not even including whether the rework is "good" or not.  I'm a fan of Ember's rework... over all.  But the wildly unpredictable energy cost of her 2, the fact that her 1 is still useless outside of an augment, and the unreliable line-of-sight check on the 3 make me not really want to play as her all that often.  As glad as I am that Yareli has gotten some significant help, she's still got a k drive ability, and that's really not fixable without giving us a toggle to turn it into something else, or until DE reworks basically every tileset in the game.  So as much as I want to bump up the usage stats for her to show DE that yes, we do like reworks, I'm just not going to play her much.

 

To get to the OP though, I completely agree.  I think DE should prioritize reworks more heavily and time them with the release of new deluxe skins or prime resurgences so that they can cash in on their efforts.  They are a business, after all.

[Metalgearfox]

9 hours ago, (PSN)Sam_Krozan said:

Trinity

Don't touch my redcrit queen.

[_LotusPrime_]

hydroid , its about time for hydroid , when in doubt its always time for revisiting hydroid @warframe_dev_team 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Eh, can be a tricky and contentious issue. Like I am personally generally pro rework. Except the term rework itself can depend a bit, like a few months ago, did Mag, Excalibur and Volt get reworks? Or did they just get adjustments and small buffs? Well Grendel, was that a rework? Was Zephyr a rework? Mostly rhetorical, in the sense, that different people have different answers. Do you need to change whole abilities, introduce new abilities, make substantial changes, for it to be consider a rework? Alternatively are we okay with small buffs and adjustments? Like personally, I think a few of the Warframes mention are fine, but could do with some small buffs, quality of life adjustments and so on. Well in that sense, some of them have been buffed a bit in recent years, just nit huge reworks. Like Frost benefitted from the armour changes (easier to armour strip), and cold status got a small buff too. In 2021 Nyx got some small buffs, but most people didn't really consider that a rework, the same way other Warframes in the past have been reworked. 

Then you have motivations for reworks? Viability? Popularity? Balance? Accessibility? Comfort? Combination of factors? Viability is tricky, because when is this a matter of player effort, skill, time investment and practice? Many players who have put in time, and practice can excel with many of the Warframes mentioned. For example, I think Ash is really strong in Steel Path, including Disruption, one of the harder modes. I thought Nyx was a bad Warframe... until I actually started getting better at the game in knowledge and skill, then I started considering her top tier. That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to Ash getting some small convenience buffs, adjustments, I just don't think he needs a huge rework. Nyx? Despite my personal feelings/thoughts, well she has a really low usage rate, (which is still probably a few thousand people who play her), but she is one of, if not the least popular Warframes overall. So potentially a decent candidate for a rework. Then personally, I think Hydroid struggles a lot, as far as potential and effectiveness against enemies, and I don't really find him that fun. He also isn't too popular. So, to myself, he is the best candidate for a rework, since I think he has a cool interesting theme and "deserves" better synergy, abilities and effectiveness. 

I keep on saying "personally" a lot though, because I think its important to acknowledge our own biases and preferences. I am very flexible, I don't main a Warframe. I am constantly swapping between my favourite Warframes. How many favourites do I have? Like 30... so I don't really like Hydroid? Well I have like 30 favs and thats just favs, I often play like most Warframes. I have met players who do main Warframes, and play them near exclusively, and so there are many many Hydroid, Frost, Yarelli, Loki, Nyx, Inaros players out there, who pretty much only play those Warframes. All their time, Platinum, Tennogen, effort, is around that Warframe, and they make them work in hard difficulties regardless. Should the game... change a Warframe, that I don't really think or care about that much, just because I think they are a bit weak and uninteresting, even though, even if they did get reworked, I still might not care? Especially when I already play like 30 different Warframes? Even though that Warframe, may have a small, but very dedicated fanbase already? 

So I am always mindful of that. Now I mean, there are probably a lot of Hydroid fans that would like him to be buffed, so generally, I also tend to prefer small buffs and minor reworks (and we have gotten a few of those in the past few years more than big reworks). I do like the Grendel changes, but a decent amount of Grendel mains  weren't as happy, and I thought their issues were valid, even if I now enjoy Grendel way more. 

Also this argument has been around, ever since Wisp, Gauss, Protea were new (and likely way before then too). Citrine is one of my fav Warframes. I really liked the Zephyr rework, great Warframe made better, I used her a bunch since, I try to use Grendel more too. I'm a minority though, a lot of Warframe players don't care. I wouldn't want to sacrifice Wisp, Gauss, Citrine and other "new" Warframes, for reworks, that most others don't even care about. Then you have players who just want reworks on a whim, because they personally don't use a Warframe, and don't really consider other aspects. Aspects DE would have to consider, and take time and resources. 

So even though I am pro rework... eh, makes sense its more convenient to focus general efforts on new stuff generally. 

[Marvelous_A]

7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Relevant Info Comment.

DE have publicly released the statements as follows:

1. Reworks are done to frames when an actual idea for the rework comes along that they resonate with.

2. Reworks are not done as a priority because the usage stats show that reworks only very briefly affect the usage of a Warframe.

To which we can interpret the following:

First is that DE never actually reads rework threads here on the Forums or on Reddit, because viable reworks, full-on theory crafting, and ideas are being constantly presented for the frames.

Second is that, while we keep asking and asking for a rework, the community never actually shows any gratitude and doesn't actually play the frame even after the rework.

Fun, right?

We have had a certain warframe raised from the least used to the most used warframe for years after one rework. It's not that rework doesn't do things to usage, it's just that most reworks weren't that good and failed.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

11 hours ago, (PSN)Sam_Krozan said:

Can DE please slow down on the new Warframes, and rework some of the old frames. 

Ash

Loki

Nyx

Trinity

Frost

And many others new their kits looked at and adjusted. To make their abilities more viable. It seems as though you have let some of them fall way to far to the wayside. 

 

Much appreciated for the consideration. Love the game.

I'm hoping you didn't just take another person's viewpoint as the excuse to request reworks. I'm also not a fan of reworking anything simply because longer playing players have used them enough. Both reasons are very poor excuses. 

Regarding the frames you mentioned, I see no reason why they need reworks. Maybe some tweaks but nothing near reworks. 

Ash is a powerhouse that has a near cult following. Only his shuriken has meaningful complaints and that is a subsume away.

Loki is unbelievably good and proves you don't need offensive abilities to be a monster. I found that out thanks to SP Circuit. He can't be seen...so building around that makes for the ultimate damage reduction, safest stat/crit builder, one of the most reliable stealth frames and you can easily add an offensive subsumed ability if you really need it...which you don't.

Nyx is a frame that I see more often in SP than standard Warframe. Again, if enemies can't focus on you then or hit you, then build around that and watch her shine!

Trinity should just never be touched, period. Just saying to do it just to do it is not a good reason. Leave well enough alone.

Frost...aka my all time, most powerful and reliable all-around, do everything frame. I saw a certain YouTuber give Frost a low grade...and that same exact YouTuber failed to justify why that grade was giving as he demonstrated armor stripping, enemy freezing, team protection, raw damage from the explosion, high survivability and overall high reliability. Made no sense at all. 😂

Look, I get it. Lots of old heads want to redo things so they can have a new experience. I get it but it is honestly, truly wasteful if not needed. DE has done a great job figuring out WHEN AND HOW to work on old stuff. For starters, it can't just be because "I've played them for a long time and I'm over it" types of reasons because newer players are experiencing the same great feelings the old heads used to have. Now you want to kill their vibe? 

[sunderthefirmament]

12 hours ago, Metalgearfox said:

Don't touch my redcrit queen.

I would put Trinity in the touch-ups and minor adjustments category, not a full blown rework with abilities getting replaced. 
 

I can only speak for myself, but I find her durations too short and her casting times too long and limiting (full body), to the point that I feel like I can’t do anything but cast while I play her in high level content. I would like some of her casting animations to be changed to upper body, one hand only. I would also like some duration refresh conditions on some or all of her buffs to ease up the spam.

[Hypernaut1]

People too often confuse " i don't like this frame" for "this frame needs a rework". 

 

[Atsia]

12 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

It's not that rework doesn't do things to usage, it's just that most reworks weren't that good and failed.

No, it is just that they don't change usage. Pablo specifically brought up the Nezha rework as the example, where his usage only changed by like, 1 percent or so. You could also through in Zephyr, though we don't really have the numbers for that. Reworks just don't change numbers that much unless they grant a ridiculous buff in power like Wukong's was.

[sunderthefirmament]

12 minutes ago, Atsia said:

No, it is just that they don't change usage. Pablo specifically brought up the Nezha rework as the example, where his usage only changed by like, 1 percent or so. You could also through in Zephyr, though we don't really have the numbers for that. Reworks just don't change numbers that much unless they grant a ridiculous buff in power like Wukong's was.

With a roster this bloated, a 1% increase is bigger than it seems. 
 

Going along with that, as the roster swells and swells, DE runs the risk of developing a reputation for churning out crap frames and letting older frames fester.  I can’t imagine a newer player wanting to stick with the game if the public perspective is that half of the frames are garbage or obsolete. I’m exaggerating, but it’s not impossible that we’ll hit that point eventually.