July 2023 Riven Dispositions

[[DE]Connor]

Greetings Tenno!

Our latest update The Duviri Paradox introduced some big shake-ups to the Warframe weapon ecosystem, and with Wisp Prime Access comes our regularly scheduled Riven adjustments.

Let’s talk about the Incarnon Genesis system. When we normally release a brand new weapon, it starts at the minimum 0.5 disposition, because we know decreasing high Dispositions has never been popular. Instead of being totally new weapons, Incarnon Geneses add huge power to existing weapons with high dispositions, which left us in a difficult position. We didn’t want to give Incarnon-equipped weapons their own 0.5 disposition, forcing players to sacrifice powerful Rivens in order to experience the new content, so we decided to leave Dispositions untouched for launch.

Due to the time-restricted acquisition for Incarnon Geneses, shifts in weapon popularity are still ongoing months after The Duviri Paradox’s release. With all things considered, we have decided to postpone all Disposition decreases in this set of changes. Our regular Disposition increases for newer weapons will continue, and can be found listed further below. 

We are still considering how to approach this going forward - our current plan is to closely inspect stats during the next Prime Access, and only decrease weapons that are deemed problematic in their influence to the game as a whole. As of right now, no existing weapon meets this criteria, but we will continue to monitor the situation as needed and read your constructive feedback over the coming months. Thanks everyone!

PRIMARIES

Spoiler

Afentis: 0.85->0.95

Cinta: 0.5->0.7

Perigale: 0.7->0.85

Phantasma Prime: 0.7->0.75

Rauta: 0.5->0.6

Steflos: 0.65->0.85

Tenet Ferrox: 0.75->0.85

SECONDARIES

Spoiler

Aegrit: 0.65->0.75

Afuris Prime: 0.7->0.85

Tenet Plinx: 0.55->0.6

MELEE

Spoiler

Azothane: 0.5->0.7

Cobra & Crane Prime: 0.75->0.9

Corufell: 0.55->0.65

Dual Keres Prime: 0.6->0.65

Edun: 0.5->0.7

Sampotes: 0.5->0.75

Sarofang: 0.65->0.8

Slaytra: 0.8->0.85

Sun & Moon: 0.5->0.7

Syam: 0.5->0.65

ARCHGUNS

EDIT: One change that we missed in this build - expect the following increase in our first hotfix!

Spoiler

Larkspur Prime: 0.5->0.6

 

[Deadlystriker2]

All around riven buffs? I thought incarnon weapons would be hit, glad to see i was wrong, even if they'll be hit eventually.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Deadlystriker2

[Numerounius]

On 2023-07-26 at 7:47 AM, [DE]Connor said:

Greetings Tenno!

Our latest update The Duviri Paradox introduced some big shake-ups to the Warframe weapon ecosystem, and with Wisp Prime Access comes our regularly scheduled Riven adjustments.

Let’s talk about the Incarnon Genesis system. When we normally release a brand new weapon, it starts at the minimum 0.5 disposition, because we know decreasing high Dispositions has never been popular. Instead of being totally new weapons, Incarnon Geneses add huge power to existing weapons with high dispositions, which left us in a difficult position. We didn’t want to give Incarnon-equipped weapons their own 0.5 disposition, forcing players to sacrifice powerful Rivens in order to experience the new content, so we decided to leave Dispositions untouched for launch.

Due to the time-restricted acquisition for Incarnon Geneses, shifts in weapon popularity are still ongoing months after The Duviri Paradox’s release. With all things considered, we have decided to postpone all Disposition decreases in this set of changes. Our regular Disposition increases for newer weapons will continue, and can be found listed further below. 

We are still considering how to approach this going forward - our current plan is to closely inspect stats during the next Prime Access, and only decrease weapons that are deemed problematic in their influence to the game as a whole. As of right now, no existing weapon meets this criteria, but we will continue to monitor the situation as needed and read your constructive feedback over the coming months. Thanks everyone!

Good reasoning imo but I hope that riven dispos get re-evaluated for weapons that aren't being used purely because of the weapon's power level but moreso because of a more passive effect a weapon might have. For example I am using the innodem and the Praedos because of their passive ability to boost parkour stats and not because they are the hardest hitting weapons, we have seen a dispo decrease for weapons in past because of this such as Furax for amalgram furax body count. Some of the new Incaranon adapater weapons also has me evaluating them from this standpoint such as Ceramic Dagger's ability to boost parkour stats while in Incarnon mode and not because it hits harder while in Incarnon.

 

Also, all decreases are postponed? Not just ones with Incarnon adapters only?

[0_The_F00l]

Only buffs, interesting , guess we are reaching normalisation and the new weapons are on par for their power level as well as acquisition gates.

Edited July 27, 2023 by 0_The_F00l

[Tiltskillet]

On 2023-07-26 at 7:47 AM, [DE]Connor said:

ARCHGUNS

No changes

I don't particularly care or even know much  about the weapon, but is it possible Larkspur Prime was forgotten?  Or does 0.5 seem like the correct dispo?

[Voltage]

On 2023-07-26 at 3:47 PM, [DE]Connor said:

Let’s talk about the Incarnon Genesis system. When we normally release a brand new weapon, it starts at the minimum 0.5 disposition, because we know decreasing high Dispositions has never been popular. Instead of being totally new weapons, Incarnon Geneses add huge power to existing weapons with high dispositions, which left us in a difficult position. We didn’t want to give Incarnon-equipped weapons their own 0.5 disposition, forcing players to sacrifice powerful Rivens in order to experience the new content, so we decided to leave Dispositions untouched for launch.

You mean like every Prime Access and update since you started this flawed system?

On 2023-07-26 at 3:47 PM, [DE]Connor said:

Due to the time-restricted acquisition for Incarnon Geneses, shifts in weapon popularity are still ongoing months after The Duviri Paradox’s release. With all things considered, we have decided to postpone all Disposition decreases in this set of changes. Our regular Disposition increases for newer weapons will continue, and can be found listed further below. 

So the solution is to let players get even more invested in these before nerfing them? What logic is that?

On 2023-07-26 at 3:47 PM, [DE]Connor said:

We are still considering how to approach this going forward [...]

Remove disposition. Unbalanced weapons are inherently unbalanced. The last time a Riven Mod was the cause of a problem was 210% Range on the Scoliac. You guys fixed that by changing the way Melee mechanics work, not by shifting a Disposition. People have been asking for a more respectful approach to how Rivens are managed, and they continue to be mishandled and disrespectful overall to a players' time.

 

On 2023-07-26 at 3:47 PM, [DE]Connor said:

ARCHGUNS

No changes

When can we expect to see changes made to base Archgun Mods to not be so incredibly low, and fix the problem where Archgun Rivens can roll exclusive stats such as faction damage and Zoom because they use Rifle Riven Mod attributes? People only realistically use these weapons in Profit-Taker and Profit-Taker alone. You could make the Disposition of every Archgun that isn't Velocitus and base Corvas 1.50 and it would realistically change nothing about the practicality of these weapons.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Voltage

[DeViL711]

no rivens dipo nerf????? what??? xD

[ReddyDisco]

Sun & Moon buff!, Day is good

[kamisama85]

Wow we went STONKS mode on disposition today. A good day.

[hamsterdance]

if you start new weapons at 0.5x and have to increase ALL of them at the same rate over time then maybe don't start them all at 0.5x. syam should have never had a worse dispo than nikana prime with its stats lol. if you're making stuff that's not supposed to broken from the concept stage then you don't need to start at 0.5x.

Edited July 27, 2023 by hamsterdance

[keenmans]

On 2023-07-26 at 4:47 PM, [DE]Connor said:

We are still considering how to approach this going forward - our current plan is to closely inspect stats during the next Prime Access, and only decrease weapons that are deemed problematic in their influence to the game as a whole. As of right now, no existing weapon meets this criteria, but we will continue to monitor the situation as needed and read your constructive feedback over the coming months. Thanks everyone!

This gives me a little hope for once

[Chroia]

On 2023-07-26 at 5:47 PM, [DE]Connor said:

Instead of being totally new weapons, Incarnon Geneses add huge power to existing weapons with high dispositions, which left us in a difficult position. We didn’t want to give Incarnon-equipped weapons their own 0.5 disposition, forcing players to sacrifice powerful Rivens in order to experience the new content, so we decided to leave Dispositions untouched for launch.

Appreciated.
Specifically, I've got a 5 Forma Torid and Miter since around the introduction of T4 Void keys, and Dual Toxocysts with iirc 3 since their introduction.
I'd already resigned myself to their rivens being writeoffs.

I still expect that to be the final outcome, but *shrug* them's the downsides of playing an online game :/

Edited July 27, 2023 by Chroia
typo

[Numerounius]

8 minutes ago, Voltage said:

When can we expect to see changes made to base Archgun Mods to not be so incredibly low, and fix the problem where Archgun Rivens can roll exclusive stats such as faction damage and Zoom because they use Rifle Riven Mod attributes? People only realistically use these weapons in Profit-Taker and Profit-Taker alone. You could make the Disposition of every Archgun that isn't Velocitus and base Corvas 1.50 and it would realistically change nothing about the practicality of these weapons.

The Grattler family is absurdly strong when called down because of its AOE. Mausolon is really strong overall even in Profit Taker.  And there are still others that are good such as the kuva family so making all be 1.5 dispo because you assume they are only being used for Profit Taker would be a bad idea. Since other archgun uses also exist such as necramechs and Orphix exist. Calling archguns only realistically used in PT alone is such a bad take.

 

Now as for Sentinel weapons? Sure 1.5 dispo for most would be possible. But there is a companion rework so hopefully there's a chance we can start seeing them pop up on this list once that lands.

[rapt0rman]

You know you're getting old when you only recognise a handful of the weapon names.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

On 2023-07-26 at 7:47 AM, [DE]Connor said:

We didn’t want to give Incarnon-equipped weapons their own 0.5 disposition, forcing players to sacrifice powerful Rivens in order to experience the new content

I could make the same argument whenever a New Prime Variant is released

starting out with a .5 dispo really kills my Motivation to acquire new weapons.

and by the time its worth using 6 months later, the hype is worn off.

 

Perhaps this should be your universal approach? Just stop doing the .5 dispo thing. Incarnons are much more powerful than your average New Prime, and clearly the world didn't end.

[NovaLP]

pls DE just remove riven dispo at this point, they have been added to keep rivens used in their original intent (to make weak weapons stronger and not buff strong weapons).

But rivens have failed were incarnon geneses succeded!

Rivens would be something like powerfull craftable gear in othe games, i.e. Path of Exile and are intended to be used to make you stronger by investing in an possibly endless grind. So inherently the playerbase wouldn't use this system as intended but you keeping your stance on this kills the interest i had on rivens once.

Also removing dispo would allow you to focus on direct nerfs and buffs to either incarnon perks, direct base stats or mods (like any other game) instead of this cheeky / hidden stats like dispo. Why do i have to wait for years after a weak weapon comes out that has been gated behind alot of grind (aka it had no reason to be weak in the first place) that i like the design off just to make it usable in the content i even got it from (for example: Aeolak, Hespar, Alternox, Afentis (Primary Fire), Ambassador, Astilla Prime, Arum Spinosa, Prisma Lenz, etc.)?

Edited July 27, 2023 by NovaLP

[Orakan]

On 2023-07-26 at 5:47 PM, [DE]Connor said:

Larkspur Prime: 0.5->0.6

this must be a joke, all of the archguns are weak and you only upgread the riven dispotion from 0,5 to 0,6

[XelthorTheBlind]

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

Remove disposition. Unbalanced weapons are inherently unbalanced. The last time a Riven Mod was the cause of a problem was 210% Range on the Scoliac. You guys fixed that by changing the way Melee mechanics work, not by shifting a Disposition. People have been asking for a more respectful approach to how Rivens are managed, and they continue to be mishandled and disrespectful overall to a players' time.

This. Frankly speaking, riven disposition needs to go, or, more likely, the absolutely bottom floor should be 1x. I could even reason with 0.8x. But having a riven below that point is almost useless. It allows for two things I can think of off the top of my head; viral on one mod or just enough critical chance to push some weapons over 100% critical chance. Otherwise, it's a wasted slot in my opinion. I'm sure there's other arguments, but that's just the most obvious to me. Lowering these stats past that threshold always feels like a slap in the face, especially when something like the Torid, an ancient weapon with low usage, suddenly has new life breathed into it via the incarnon genesis adapter. I really do appreciate the disposition postponement, even if I don't have the rivens for these ones. I do think this disposition debacle needs to be addressed regardless though. A bottom floor of 1x would be most preferable. Most, if not all, of the serious offending weapons have already been decimated during the ammo change nerf update, I very much doubt having riven at 1x would really truly make a difference for the Zarr or Bramma. 

To be honest, the RNG dependencies being at least 3 layers deep between the kuva, the stat rolling, the chance of which kind of veiled riven, and then the weapon it could be is already hard enough. The fatigue from the riven dispo RNG is just even worse. "What weapon riven in my arsenal is gonna be nerfed this time? I won't know until next prime access."

I hope this idea that many others seem to be bringing up here isn't completely ignored and is at least considered.

[NovaLP]

2 hours ago, XHADgaming said:

The Grattler family is absurdly strong when called down because of its AOE. Mausolon is really strong overall even in Profit Taker.  And there are still others that are good such as the kuva family so making all be 1.5 dispo because you assume they are only being used for Profit Taker would be a bad idea. Since other archgun uses also exist such as necramechs and Orphix exist. Calling archguns only realistically used in PT alone is such a bad take.

1.) Who plays Orphix? Its such a bad way to obtain Arcanes compared to eidolons and takes even more gear progression to succeed then eidolons. So I'd realisticly say that archguns are mostly used in PT because its the only content where you can use archguns that barely matters.

2.) Grattler isn't absurdly strong if compared to primaries we use, while having a MUCH rarer ammo type. The Mausolon is strong, but also falls short even compared to its thematic primary counterpart the Trumna, while again having a MUCH rarer ammo type. 

[Numerounius]

4 minutes ago, NovaLP said:

1.) Who plays Orphix? Its such a bad way to obtain Arcanes compared to eidolons and takes even more gear progression to succeed then eidolons. So I'd realisticly say that archguns are mostly used in PT because its the only content where you can use archguns that barely matters.

2.) Grattler isn't absurdly strong if compared to primaries we use, while having a MUCH rarer ammo type. The Mausolon is strong, but also falls short even compared to its thematic primary counterpart the Trumna, while again having a MUCH rarer ammo type. 

1-Yes I know Orphix isn't the only use and see practically zero play but you need to use an archgun for it. Necramechs in open worlds is still heavily used as well and need an archgun where using a slow-firing one like the Corvas is not going to be ideal.

2-The Kuva Grattler is actually pretty strong. While the ammo is rarer it can churn out AOE damage a lot longer compared to the likes of Kuva Zarr and Kuva Bramma which will always have ammo issues to deal with whereas the Grattler can continue firing until it runs out of its high ammo pool, sometimes even lasting an entire mission. I think it is slept on by a lot.

3-Mausolon does not fall short at all. It is still a PT powerhouse for limbs when called down. And is one of the top contenders for necramech/archwing usage in which you cannot compare it to primary options. And even if you were to compare it to a primary, having two options for a primary is better than having just one. I love using it as a fourth weapon option in my loadout rather than seeing it as an inferior option vs a primary weapon.

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, XHADgaming said:

3-Mausolon does not fall short at all. It is still a PT powerhouse for limbs when called down. And is one of the top contenders for necramech/archwing usage in which you cannot compare it to primary options. And even if you were to compare it to a primary, having two options for a primary is better than having just one. I love using it as a fourth weapon option in my loadout rather than seeing it as an inferior option vs a primary weapon.

Your competition in PT is with gear that already achieves a 1 shot. It literally doesn't matter. Outside of PT, you're either going to get better damage/practical use out of an AOE primary/secondary/contagion/glaive, or you're using Arquebex.

Giving Archguns more damage doesn't increase practicality. If you know how to effectively use your arsenal, most content has you just focusing on your effective range, as the damage is an afterthought. This has been the case for a long time now. Every weapon should have the same availability from Riven Mods. If a specific weapon is broken, that's because certain mechanics have been overlooked and left to rot. 

Rivens have always been an end-game enhancement for weapons that the player refines or trades for. Limiting players and punishing them on variant upgrades the more they refine their mods to try and close the gap is annoying at best.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Voltage

[NovaUmbral]

The fact that a plethora of weapons that haven't received usage in years is not on this list baffles me, the last time Zenistar had received an increase was nearly 2 years ago with its usage rate being 0.30% in 2022. The Dual Ethers have a 0.01% higher playrate yet its riven dispo is 1.45x. Its very obvious you don't update this list based off usage and just hand select the popular weapons while a lot of older gear are stuck at an awkward 0.9 to 1.2. Having a weapon at 0.5 on launch makes having a riven for said weapon pointless and kills all the hype. And postponing the incarnon nerfs just so more people can invest their plat, time and effort is disrespectful. Remove riven dispositions all together OR have all weapons at 1x base instead of 0.5 when releasing new gear.

Edited July 27, 2023 by NovaUmbral

[Rychlas]

Greetings, I've come back to Warframe after almost 5 years of a break. 
I've always thought that the Rivens were an interesting mechanic, but it's way too random. The RNG tends to be excruciating. 
 

On 2023-07-26 at 4:47 PM, [DE]Connor said:

We are still considering how to approach this going forward - our current plan is to closely inspect stats during the next Prime Access, and only decrease weapons that are deemed problematic in their influence to the game as a whole. As of right now, no existing weapon meets this criteria, but we will continue to monitor the situation as needed and read your constructive feedback over the coming months. Thanks everyone!

I think you could make this more interactive and balanced if you just rework the system. I'm not sure if the folks that already invested a lot into Kuva Grinding will like it, but I think grind&RNG-gating such an interesting and promising feature as creating your own mods is healthy for the game. The grind is okay by itself, but its mix with RNG makes it just a horrible experience. 

Here are my thoughts on how you could rework the whole riven mechanic. It'd be a lot of work to implement, but it'd be an interactive way to upgrade your weapon, in a progressive-grind based system that's rewarding you linearly for the time you've invested into your riven:

1) Riven Imprinting - once you have an unveiled riven, you unveil the quest on it and then you can put it on any weapon of that type to imprint the riven. Imprinted riven will always be for the weapon it has been put on and had its quest done. This reduces the randomness of rivens, eliminates Riven "mafia" hoarders and lets players fiddle with rivens for weapons they actually want and love without having to deal with scalpers

2) Standardize the maximum values for each stat and quantify the resulting bonuses. For example, set a max stat boost for weapon crit damage to 100%, then if a weapon has disposition of 1.5, the dmg bonus will be 150%, or if the disposition is 0.65 the dmg will be 65%, etc. instead of 123.5% and 63.1%. If you have a specific stat on a riven, it should always be maxed out. I've been grinding tenet/kuva weapons and getting 25% out of 60% on my first kuva weapon feels so bad. I've always had bad luck but damn. Please don't make mechanics like that. This is one of the reasons I stopped playing warframe 5 years ago in the first place. Mechanics that don't respect me as a player and my time. Mechanics that make me feel bad about something that is completely outside of my control.


3) Rank up rivens by spending KUVA, not ENDO. 

4) Add Riven Tiers, up to 3. You start with a 1 stat slot riven on tier 1, and new quests like when unveiling are appearing now on the riven. Progressively more difficult or grindy with each tier, finishing them lets you rank up your rivens and unlock new stat slots. They could be as easy as kill X enemies or something, doesn't necessarily have to be a skill-based quest, but those are also welcome. Unless it's a Dargyn quest.... EDIT: You can reroll the quest with Riven Slivers! Plus advancing from rank to rank can cost Kuva and/or Riven Slivers

5) With Kuva and resources like Fieldron, Detonite, Mutagen Mass, Argons etc and Riven Slivers  you can craft thingies to set each slot to any stat you want. The blueprint for those could be purchased in Iron Wake.

6) Optional: Players can activate Corrupted Overdrive by infusing it with a special ingredient, that boosts your disposition for the weapon by a DE set amount per each wepon individually, but it activates negative stat slot for your Riven. The negative stat is also decided by DE per weapon, to make it an actual, real negative stat that you will feel. DE could add a few to choose from, but not "-%dmg" types, but lower range, slower projectile velocity, lower reload speed etc, to make the weapon feel different, or maybe even something more creative like changing the behaviour of projectiles. 

It's something completely different, but I believe it'd be so much more interactive, fair and rewarding than what we have now. The only problem is that there's a lot of folks that invested a lot into current rivens. Not sure how to handle that.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Rychlas

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, NovaUmbral said:

The fact that a plethora of weapons that haven't received usage in years is not on this list baffles me, the last time Zenistar had received an increase was nearly 2 years ago with its usage rate being 0.30% in 2022. The Dual Ethers have a 0.01% higher playrate yet its riven dispo is 1.45x. Its very obvious you don't update this list based off usage and just hand select the popular weapons while a lot of older gear are stuck at an awkward 0.9 to 1.2. Having a weapon at 0.5 on launch makes having a riven for said weapon pointless and kills all the hype. And postponing the incarnon nerfs just so more people can invest their plat, time and effort is disrespectful. Remove riven dispositions all together OR have all weapons at 1x base instead of 0.5 when releasing new gear.

It's quite the charade when you're old enough to know that it hasn't had any impact on what players choose in mission for a very, very long time.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Voltage

[Damocles]

On 2023-07-26 at 10:47 AM, [DE]Connor said:

Let’s talk about the Incarnon Genesis system. When we normally release a brand new weapon, it starts at the minimum 0.5 disposition, because we know decreasing high Dispositions has never been popular. Instead of being totally new weapons, Incarnon Geneses add huge power to existing weapons with high dispositions, which left us in a difficult position. We didn’t want to give Incarnon-equipped weapons their own 0.5 disposition, forcing players to sacrifice powerful Rivens in order to experience the new content, so we decided to leave Dispositions untouched for launch.

Due to the time-restricted acquisition for Incarnon Geneses, shifts in weapon popularity are still ongoing months after The Duviri Paradox’s release. With all things considered, we have decided to postpone all Disposition decreases in this set of changes. Our regular Disposition increases for newer weapons will continue, and can be found listed further below. 

We are still considering how to approach this going forward - our current plan is to closely inspect stats during the next Prime Access, and only decrease weapons that are deemed problematic in their influence to the game as a whole. As of right now, no existing weapon meets this criteria, but we will continue to monitor the situation as needed and read your constructive feedback over the coming months. Thanks everyone!

I like this response, I've always been troubled by the idea of a vicious cycle of:

• Weapon is intrinsically weak, give it high disposition, +300% critical chance on a base 10% critical chance weapon does nearly nothing...
• Weapon is intrinsically strong, give it low disposition, +100% critical chance on a base 30% critical chance weapon, does nearly nothing (compared to normal mods)

I think the answer should be to forget changing the dispositions and set them all to a fixed number like 1. Low dispositions make players angry, and they get so low that rivens cant compete with standard mods that also compete for a slot on your build. Meanwhile high disposition rivens on "trash" weapons see no viability because something like the stug has 5%cc and 0%sc, which means a riven would need 10x dispo or more to even catch up to regularly modded weapons in terms of crit, and no amount of rivens will fix the status. As a result, rivens aren't meant for "rebalancing weapons". What they do now is and should always be to magnify existing stats. Trying to "balance weapons" is like trying to make my Mk1 braton as strong as my Incarnon (some meta weapon), which would invalidate any reason to attempt completing Steel Path Circuit and all the hurdles and requirements needed to unlock the incarnons. Riven mods are hard to get and hard to roll to satisfaction. I strongly believe these high barrier-to-entry items should not be messed with, and rebalancing weapons is a fruitless endeavor short of what was done to catchmoon (which was unnecessary in hindsight since power creep should be the natural solution).