Abyss of Dagath - Dev Workshop: Hydroid Rework

[Aearie]

Hydroid looks so cool now, I can't wait to try the rework!

I am curious how his 3 augment will work on allies though. Will Rousing Plunder heal companions and defense objects like his old augment did, or does it strictly heal Warframes?

[(PSN)sitri_01]

6 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

many were asking for his Tidal Surge and Undertow to be merged onto a single ability with a tap/hold mechanic.

This is the only acceptable way to bring the puddle back, upvotes people! 

Undertow literally doesn't have to be changed, just add it as the hold to cast on his 2. It was a very unique ability, maybe it is useless but no harm in incorporating this. Mag's 2 hold was literally only added because it was part of the cinematic and its useless too. Come on, let's do this, let's keep undertow!

[garbenzine]

How about getting rid of Tidal Surge instead?  The cleanse is nice and all, but you could have put that on Undertow and it would fit the theme of using it for added survivability on top of the unique and situationally very useful CC.

[NecroPed]

6 minutes ago, garbenzine said:

How about getting rid of Tidal Surge instead?  The cleanse is nice and all, but you could have put that on Undertow and it would fit the theme of using it for added survivability on top of the unique and situationally very useful CC.

I find tidal surge a much more fun and engaging ability (it's the most fun part of his kit for me) and so think it's much more valuable to the kit if something has to go. And with the changes I think it's going to be even more fun. I can't support this at all. I could however support putting undertow, a similarly reworked ability or the new ability (while keeping undertow but reworking it at the same time because I think it needs work to be a healthy part of his kit for users and team mates), as a hold ability for tidal surge. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by NecroPed

[ShogunGunshow]

Actually I think Tempest Barrage is the least interesting part of Hydroid's kit but hey they're giving helminth peeps another way to get free viral with the augment.

(We're never getting a status 3.0, are we? I think DE has built too many things leaning into the obvious flaws of the current status system to actually fix the problem at this point)

[bangarang35]

2 hours ago, (PSN)sitri_01 said:

I think Hydroid's augement's extra loot drop chance is 100% while Nekros and Khora's is somewhere in the 40s and 50s?

True, he has the higher raw percentage. However, it's a lot more difficult to activate his though. Only enemies held by tentacles will drop extra loot and that's when they die. For Khora, it's any enemy in her dome who dies. Her activation criteria is easier is what I meant.

[Arthegall]

Rework looks really great, can’t wait to try it out. 

[EthanAngelbane]

11 hours ago, [DE]Juice said:

Undertow:

• This ability is being removed and replaced with Plunder.
  • Undertow is an ability which we feel makes Hydroid a bit less fun to play as, or play with. There are two main reasons we decided to replace this ability:
    • It forces the player to be stationary, while many objectives rely on regular movement.
    • It absorbs enemies without instantly killing them, which can lead to instances of hiding enemies that a teammate was trying to kill.

Undertow is my favorite ability on Hydroid because it encourages unique gameplay. Yeah, it could use some QoL buffs, but can someone at DE please explain why the ability has to be completely removed instead of, say, just giving it QoL?

I NEVER had problems with Hydroid players sitting in Undertow without being able to kill the people inside, and that's coming from someone whose brother optimized Undertow to be able to sit there for several minutes straight.

Forcing players to be stationary shouldn't be listed as a reason to remove Undertow as that sets a horrible precedent for the future. Mesa's Peacemakers requires her to stand still, so when's that getting removed? Hell, unlike Hydroid, Mesa needs an augment to not be locked into standing still, meaning she forces even more stationary gameplay than Undertow.

The removal of Undertow will anger his current players in the name of pleasing people who don't care about gimmicks on Warframes. Warframes should be actually unique instead of just being another boring damage frame,

 

Here's my personal ideas for QoL on Undertow cause honestly the rest of the changes to him are great.

1: Make it more clear that people can shoot the puddle. Hell, this could just be splashes that happen when enemies are inside.

2: Increase Undertow's movespeed and/or reduce the energy cost for moving.

3: Make Tidal Wave a hold 3 cast and make Plunder his 2.

 

Please don't remove what makes a Warframe fun.

[Flackenstien]

These changes are exactly what I was looking for. Personally I liked Undertow, and used it in a very active way, but Plunder seems like a greaaaat replacement. One thing is, it would be cool if affected enemies dropped bonus Credits just for thematic sake.. but Hydroid already has a loot buff.

 

If there aren't any more under the hood changes for Tentacle Swarm, then it might need more work. Last I played Hydroid, the tentacles had trouble finding enemies and not spawing on wall or on top of enemy bubbles, ect. Would also be nice if you could recast to move it, like Tornados.  

There's probably some cool Helminth options for this slot now, though.

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

1 hour ago, Tellmeninetails said:

NOOOO THEY HIT HIS PUDDLE! THEY HIT THE PUDDLE!!! Guess hydroid doesn't drown people anymore...
Honestly, I think hey should have replaced tempest barrage with puddle. Tempest barrage is essentially his 4 in that it hits a lot of enemies.
Kind of wish you could of set puddles on the ground for one reason or another. 

Completely agree with you as the Water Balloon Toss was just lame and was barely acceptable even with the Augment.  The Puddle was part of the CORE of what made Hydroid...HYDROID!     I don't need any more Speedy Gonzalez Warframes that are just a blur on the playing field and to me are just unappealing to play and look odd, footless Warframe and soon to be a Headless Warframe!  I agree with the idea of combining Tidal Surge and Puddle into one as a viable option instead of eradication of Hydroid's unique gameplay.  Anyone that wanted the puddle removed wasn't a True Fan of Hydroid and his unique playstyle.  I still don't understand why everyone has such Tentacle Hate as it can be very effective on Interception Missions to easily gain control and take the point from the enemy.  Additionally you could double the damage output of the Tentacles if you cast them while in a Puddle.  The removal of the Puddle will not make Hydroid suddenly become the Meta or more fun to play it will just make him even more mediocre and dull and further cement his tenure at the bottom of the list of Warframes used.         

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

1. Undertow actually felt unique. I would've preferred a buff and increased movement speed, or have it rolled into Tidal surge as a hold. Hold for puddle, tap for surge. Swallowing enemies in a corrosive pool that eats their armor sounds so cool. Shooting out tentacles to grab enemies also kept it active. The synergy of casting from puddle was also a nice defensive move that didn't rely on simple damage reduction.  The idea that it was taking away enemies from other players doesn't hold water when Grendel does the same thing and other frames can just nuke everything anyway. 

2. Tentacles staying still looks boring. All they needed to do was allow us to damage enemies by shooting at tentacle, then it wouldn't matter if the enemy was being flung around, and it would still look cool. Make it so shooting a tentacle damages the enemy and adds corrosive damage. Having the tentacles hold still makes it look like a reskin for divine spears.

 

still like the rework though. Some great changes overall. Just wish we could've kept some of his identity and uniqueness. 

Somebody pinch me because I actually agree with you on something.  Jokes aside it is nice for once to be in agreement with you and hopefully we can find more common ground in the future. 

Good Chats!

[StrutZ76]

2 hours ago, bangarang35 said:

5 hours ago, Venmere said:

It's a shame to see undertow go, it was a creative and unique ability but with plunder Hydroid just shakes some water off.
I do like the utility/use of plunder but why not just give undertow the ability to do what plunder does when pulling in the corrosive inflicted enemies?
I feel that Hydroid lost a quite a bit of his creative character by removing undertow.

Exactly! removing underto tears away a part of Hydroid. No need to get rid of it. Just put it on the wide open spot for the crouch or roll mechanic. I'm more inclined for the roll myself. He can roll in whatever direction as the puddle for a quick second and be invulnerable. It'd be pretty fun and visually appealing for players.

 

Undertow is one of Hydroid's signature abilities! When you think of Hydroid you think Tentacles and Puddle! Just like Nova is associated with her slow. Of course Nova's slow is powerful so people will be quick to dismiss the comparison but undertow is one of the most unique and FUN (remember fun?) abilities in the game! Instead of making this ability more useful, Pablo just threw it in the trash and replaced it with yet another armor strip ability. PLEASE take some time and just improve this ability. As lots of people have suggested, allow Undertow to have some movement synergy i.e. allow Undertow to "Surge" around when you roll instead of popping you out of undertow. That or allow tidal surge to give a baby surge with half energy cost while in undertow. You could even incorporate the armor strip into undertow which would be nice for CC immune mobs that are currently unaffected by undertow.

Players that only care about power are quick to dismiss undertow but for those of us who have been playing Hydroid for years it is part of his identity and feels wrong to just remove it. For those who don't care for it just Helminth over it! The rest of the improvements to his kit look great but please do not remove undertow!! 😞

#UndertowLove
#Puddle of Doom

Edited September 29, 2023 by StrutZ76
typo

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

20 minutes ago, EthanAngelbane said:

Undertow is my favorite ability on Hydroid because it encourages unique gameplay. Yeah, it could use some QoL buffs, but can someone at DE please explain why the ability has to be completely removed instead of, say, just giving it QoL?

I NEVER had problems with Hydroid players sitting in Undertow without being able to kill the people inside, and that's coming from someone whose brother optimized Undertow to be able to sit there for several minutes straight.

Forcing players to be stationary shouldn't be listed as a reason to remove Undertow as that sets a horrible precedent for the future. Mesa's Peacemakers requires her to stand still, so when's that getting removed? Hell, unlike Hydroid, Mesa needs an augment to not be locked into standing still, meaning she forces even more stationary gameplay than Undertow.

The removal of Undertow will anger his current players in the name of pleasing people who don't care about gimmicks on Warframes. Warframes should be actually unique instead of just being another boring damage frame,

 

Here's my personal ideas for QoL on Undertow cause honestly the rest of the changes to him are great.

1: Make it more clear that people can shoot the puddle. Hell, this could just be splashes that happen when enemies are inside.

2: Increase Undertow's movespeed and/or reduce the energy cost for moving.

3: Make Tidal Wave a hold 3 cast and make Plunder his 2.

 

Please don't remove what makes a Warframe fun.

You took the words right out of my mouth!  I will sign any petition needed to keep the Puddle alive!  The puddle IS what made Hydroid....HYDROID!  Thank you for representing those that embrace the Puddle, but don't always voice their opinions here in the Forums for DE to see.  Keep the Puddle Pressure on DE to ensure the Puddle Legacy can be enjoyed by new players now and in the future! 

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

2 minutes ago, StrutZ76 said:

Undertow is one of Hydroid's signature abilities! When you think of Hydroid you think Tentacles and Puddle! Just like Nova is associated with her slow. Of course Nova's slow is powerful so people will be quick to dismiss the comparison but undertow is one of the most unique and FUN (remember fun?) abilities in the game! Instead of making this ability more useful, Pablo just threw it in the trash and replaced it with yet another armor strip ability. PLEASE take some time and just improve this ability. As lots of people have suggested, allow Undertow to have some movement synergy i.e. allow Undertow to "Surge" around when you roll instead of popping you out of undertow. That or allow tidal surge to give a baby surge with half energy cost while in undertow. You could even incorporate the armor strip into undertow which would be nice for CC immune mobs that are currently unaffected by undertow.

Players that only care about power are quick to dismiss undertow but for those of us who have been playing Hydroid for years it is part of his identity and feels wrong to just remove it. For those who don't care for it just Helminth over it! The rest of the improvements to his kit look great but please do not remove undertow!! 😞

#UndertowLove
#Puddle of Doom

OMG I love the Puddle of Doom tag! You are a gentleman and a scholar!

#PuddlePower

[0_The_F00l]

RIP puddle and floppy tentacles,

 

honestly , if i am being fair , i have already been playing hydroid with pillage , and its great.

So this is just freeing up my subsume , reducing an augment requirement and adding some power,

So overall win for me,

 

It still feels bad to loose puddle , but it also feels bad that the kraken is still just a showpiece

[zork9900]

I agree with combining undertow and tidal surge into one ability with a tap/hold mechanic, and maybe make it so that while you are in his puddle you can roll to use tidal surge, that way you can move around with it, and with the changes to tidal surge gather enemies up for his puddle. Also, not a fan of the changes to tentacle swarm, it feels like they're just there to make it less of a liability, not actually make it good or unique. Someone suggested shooting the tentacles to damage enemies in them while they are flailing around instead of holding them in place, but regardless I think more needs to be added to it, like damage vulnerability for enemies wrapped up, increase headshot multiplier if they are going to make them hold enemies in place, or make increase the damage the tentacles do themselves with scaling damage or something, literally any additional mechanic, it doesn't feel like an ultimate.

[AzulMage]

1 hour ago, RaulBataka said:

And they still managed to not fix the biggest issue with hydroid's ult, that tentacles spawn once and just spend the entire duration doing nothing, Can you please make it so that if a tentacle hasn't cached an enemy for say 3 to 5s it submerges and reemerges again in somewhere enemies actually are?

Pablo mentioned during the stream that if an enemy enters the area of effect of Tentacle Swarm, a tentacle will automatically move to it and grab it. So I think this has been addressed. It just wasn't detailed in these notes 

[(XBOX)SeizedManager30]

While everyone dislikes the removal of undertow, I’m neutral to it since I really disliked undertow because of its horrible range and being a buggy mess but if it got a buff to its range a good amount of fixes it would be a great and with this rework it’s the bread to plunder’s butter since if each tick procs corrosive then plunder scales absurdly high and it would work as a tap/hold ability combining tidal as tap and undertow as hold

[Zre6]

25 minutes ago, (XBOX)sinamanthediva said:

Completely agree with you as the Water Balloon Toss was just lame and was barely acceptable even with the Augment.  The Puddle was part of the CORE of what made Hydroid...HYDROID!     I don't need any more Speedy Gonzalez Warframes that are just a blur on the playing field and to me are just unappealing to play and look odd, footless Warframe and soon to be a Headless Warframe!  I agree with the idea of combining Tidal Surge and Puddle into one as a viable option instead of eradication of Hydroid's unique gameplay.  Anyone that wanted the puddle removed wasn't a True Fan of Hydroid and his unique playstyle.  I still don't understand why everyone has such Tentacle Hate as it can be very effective on Interception Missions to easily gain control and take the point from the enemy.  Additionally you could double the damage output of the Tentacles if you cast them while in a Puddle.  The removal of the Puddle will not make Hydroid suddenly become the Meta or more fun to play it will just make him even more mediocre and dull and further cement his tenure at the bottom of the list of Warframes used.        

I think all the changes were great until I saw the puddle was removed and was very disappointed, and that's from someone that barely plays Hydroid. I only used to use him in Interception before the eximus change but few days ago I picked him in steel path circuit and instantly saw the appeal of his Undertow ability again as a clutch to avoid lethal damage with the bonus of pulling in and drown enemies in the process.

And now Hydroid has grown on me, it's sad to see this getting removed.

[Lancars]

Sorry but i prefer being able to dolphin dive with undertow. Run around and jump and and out of it to surprise enemies and silence specific enemies that would cause issues like the wardens in rescue. and No i did not AFK in the puddle like other people i used it more actively.

But now its gonna be replaced with a very boring looking move. Oh boy tap for extra armor.

Screw it i don't feel like sugar coating it. Plunder sucks, you coulda done a better job with a better idea. People on this forum have come up with better rework ideas. Ugh this makes me wanna stay on my break from warframe longer. Disgusting.

[(PSN)aarott]

13 hours ago, [DE]Juice said:

This ability is being removed and replaced with Plunder

BOOOO

 

13 hours ago, [DE]Juice said:

It forces the player to be stationary, while many objectives rely on regular movement.

Just make it faster, then! Make it monkey cloud levels of fast, but on the ground

 

13 hours ago, [DE]Juice said:

It absorbs enemies without instantly killing them, which can lead to instances of hiding enemies that a teammate was trying to kill.

Then have them be visible! Put a silhouette of the enemy with a glow in the puddle to draw allies to it, and add some splash vfx for good measure. 

 

13 hours ago, [DE]Juice said:

Plunder:...[]

So we have to get 10 corrosive stacks on enemies to practically remove all their armour, and THEN use the ability to actually get the benefits, WITHOUT the enemies dying in the interim?

How am I supposed to do that while Pubby McRandom and his two friends are flying around nuking the map with their AOE nukecarnons? Doubly so if any of them are running Frost or Xaku or any armour removing subsumes?

No no, THIS ability is way too slow to function in the current meta. 

[LightlessIvara]

This rework is a perfect example of changes that will make a frame "better" but does not make them more fun to play. It's sad to see but because their abilities were not really changed and the one ability that was really unique, that being undertow, was replaced by what is essentially a redundant buff I feel it's relegated hydroid to a very boring role of self buffer with a bit of armor strip and cc.

If you ask me it stripped away what made hydroid himself and turns him into a shallow armor stripper. They saw undertow in a manner that's much too binary, it had to be a stationary pool that sucks enemies under. Why not instead make it so it's a passive area around Hydroid that would restrain enemies inside it? Hell even his old rework didn't do him justice because of how much they shrunk undertow, I think they should have gone back to their roots and give it back it's old range but instead of pulling enemies under it would slow them and maybe have a tentacle disarm them while keeping the shared damage between enemies in its range. Could've also given that some synergy by making it so you could have a kraken that follows you around when holding down his 4 with it active.

Hell they could have done a lot of things differently, his kit is stronger now but because they didn't take the liberties to try experimenting with more radical changes to how an ability works they didn't actually change how he feels in a way that will make him more interesting or engaging. Like say instead of making tempest barrage a series of missiles make it an aoe acid rain that slows down enemies, or how about making it so enemies hit by tidal surge get rooted in place by tentacles to further cement that as a cc ability without having to deal with janky ragdoll physics. He's still exactly the same as he was but just sucks less with some of his identity taken away in favor of a very lackluster self buff.

Edited September 30, 2023 by LightlessIvara

[NovahX]

Although, these would-be changes are far more appealing than current Hydroid we have, it feels....rather underwhelming. Feeling that Hydroid has much better potential that is not being utilized fully. So, personally, I would add these:
-Enemies that have their armor removed by Plunder or enemies with no armor in-range of Plunder take extra damage, correlating to how much damage boost you get from Plunder
-Tentacles passively draining the armor and shields of enemies they're holding and if they have no armor, drains their health, giving it to Hydroid (and maybe teammates)
-Casting Plunder while Tentacle Swarm is active to empower them, draining armor, shield and health at double the rate
-Casting Tidal Surge while Tentacle Swarm is active to bundle all held enemies into Tidal Surge and after the ability is over, they're held down by the tentacles
-Tentacle Swarm having "head" to shoot at, to spread the damage out to all enemies held by the tentacles or targeting them one by one, dealing extra damage to them or shooting an enemy held by tentacle spreading the damage to other held enemies (similar to zephyr 4)

Still, I am just glad that my boy Hydroid is finally getting proper rework.
 

[(XBOX)CanadienSaintNk]

I'm relatively new to the game at 2 1/2ish months but I just have one request: please make Hydroid's 4th ability either mobile enough to cover its energy use and/or powerful enough to kill on it's own in steel path. I would say being able to kill them within 1/2 of the Swarms duration by itself would be the minimum. Whether that's giving it a raw damage increase or bumping up how it scales is something that might be relevant.

 

Your four abilities stack very well, you've put a tremendous amount of thought into his kit rework and its appreciated but if he has to activate all four abilities or even three abilities with Tidal surge being situational 4th) on every engagement because his 4 is stationary, it's going to quickly be non-steel path viable and betray your own intentions of making Hydroid more mobile and in line with other frames. We can go around spamming Tempest Barrage too but then Hydroid falls back right where he is now: where are my friends? and everything must die by gunfire to be sustainable, with neither being indicative of kraken summoning Hydroid on a surface level.

[RobWasHere]

Plunder would have been fine if Undertow would have speed restriction removed and turned into Limbo-style roll possive.

[(PSN)ApoX95]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Lancars:

Disgusting.

quite the strong vocabulary for a useful rework of an outdated, classic warframe. 

I guess this is what somebody calls 'ungrateful'. keep some perspective and don't disrespect the devs who even make this wonderful game possible.